Two Laws? [Archive] - Christian Forums

plum

14th June 2005, 04:06 PM

Shimshon

14th June 2005, 04:35 PM

Because they have rejected the One Law. That forces them to have a second law for them and one for us (that they reject).

Iollain

14th June 2005, 04:40 PM

It confuses me as anyone can see, why did James want the new Gentile believers to be circumcised and Peter said no, they just have to do this , this etc. ? They are both equal Apostles in the Lord.

Shimshon

14th June 2005, 04:41 PM

They seem to not understand this;

4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as when you were called you were called to one hope. 5 And there is one Lord, one trust, one immersion, 6 and one God, the Father of all, who rules over all, works through all and is in all.

It appears they would have him be two, or more.

Shimshon

14th June 2005, 04:49 PM

Juile, this is the work of God, bringing all in "union" with Messiah. Seems we have not chosen enough workers yet to harvest the fields. Many are called but few are chosen. Many are equiped but few are capable of utilizing the equipment. So many seem to be sitting on their couches using their sheild as a t.v. stand and their sword as a 'weenie skewer'. They sit naked with their helmet on holding it as if to completely hid underneath it.

I pray for the day they pick up the armor and use it. Or else it will be taken from them and given to others who will. And if you think having no teeth will save you. Think again, in the end God will resurrect your body with brand new teeth for gnashing away!!!! Or for smiling into Abbas everloving face!!!

ShirChadash

14th June 2005, 05:49 PM

Julia :hug:

These articles may help you address their questions...

a many-parter but excellent:

http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm

also very good -- don't let the title fool you:

http://70.85.151.146/~gkilli/reasons.html (http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm)

Bon

14th June 2005, 07:33 PM

This article is called "The New Testament Teaches Nothing New.

http://ecclesia.org/truth/new.html

http://www.sacredname.org/yah_p_law.htm

Love is not a new concept presented to us in the NT.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins.

There's more, but I dont want to inundate with more info than you can process right now.

Shalom from Bon

visionary

14th June 2005, 07:43 PM

While the laws of stone, and the parchment on the side of the ark were for the tribe of Israel as a theocracy, we today are under the new covenant which is the same applied to our hearts and lived out in our lives through the spirit of Yeshua in us. HaSatan wouldn't want us to understand that.... He is the lawlessone we have been warned against.

Henaynei

14th June 2005, 08:02 PM

I left croswalk, theology.net and othe similar forums long ago as I found the discussions unprofitable both in trying to share MJism and in growing in MJism.... I like it here much better :thumbsup:

insaneinthebrain

14th June 2005, 09:12 PM

Julia :hug:

These articles may help you address their questions...

a many-parter but excellent:

http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm

also very good -- don't let the title foll you:

http://www.yashanet.com/library/underlaw.htm
You know, unless I'm missing a subtle difference, you've posted the same link twice. :P

ShirChadash

14th June 2005, 10:21 PM

:sorry::sleep::scratch::eek:

Blast.

LOL

Lemme try that again...

^_^

The second was SUPPOSED to be:

http://70.85.151.146/~gkilli/reasons.html

it's just prego-brain.

insaneinthebrain

14th June 2005, 10:23 PM

it's just prego-brain.
Again? It's like you guys are trying to start your own country over there! :D

Congratulations, though. :)

plum

14th June 2005, 10:27 PM

plum

14th June 2005, 10:30 PM

WOO babies on the brain! *eh-hem* thanks Z ;)

Steve Petersen

14th June 2005, 10:35 PM

'One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism'...Two Laws, and a partridge in a pear tree.

plum

14th June 2005, 10:58 PM

lol Steve ;) i'm gonna steal that one

Bon

15th June 2005, 03:03 AM

It seems like the issue is twofold:
"the old law has passed away" (which can easily be refuted. nevertheless it was apparently "nailed to the cross")

Lots'a study missju.....lots'a study :)

Do you know that there is a logical and truthful answer to every christian doctrine out there. You've just got to delve into the "guts" of the bible to find the answers. Customs, language, idioms, context and overal harmony play a vital role to understanding also.

Oftentimes, general Christian understanding comes from somewhere far removed from the actual era of the bible writings. Truths are lost in translation and time and we end up with a distored view of God's intended word.
But because the "masses" are convinced of the distortions of scripture, it become next to impossible to prove the truth to such people, because, lets face it........"how can the minority possibly gain insight into the truth?"

You can read this to gain a clearer understanding of what the "Handwriting of Ordinances" are that were "nailed to the cross".

http://www.eliyah.com/col2.htm

Shalom from Bon

Torah

15th June 2005, 07:32 AM

Missju As for the statement;
I was just told this one new law is "love others as I have loved you".

Lev19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Gal5: 14: 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Lev 19: 33 "'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.
34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

nothing new hare.
Shalom :wave:

Bon

15th June 2005, 09:15 AM

Missju As for the statement;

Lev19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Gal5: 14: 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Lev 19: 33 "'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him.
34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

nothing new hare.
Shalom :wave:

Right on Torah! :thumbsup:

Shalom from Bon

Henaynei

15th June 2005, 09:34 AM

just FYI:

Deuteronomy (D'varim) 6:4-9 4 "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one]; 5 and you are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources. 6 These words, which I am ordering you today, are to be on your heart; 7 and you are to teach them carefully to your children. You are to talk about them when you sit at home, when you are traveling on the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them on your hand as a sign, put them at the front of a headband around your forehead, 9 and write them on the door-frames of your house and on your gates.

Deuteronomy (D'varim) 10:12-13
12 "So now, Isra'el, all that ADONAI your God asks from you is to fear ADONAI your God, follow all his ways, love him and serve ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being; 13 to obey, for your own good, the mitzvot and regulations of ADONAI which I am giving you today.

Deuteronomy (D'varim) 11:-12-16
12 It is a land ADONAI your God cares for. The eyes of ADONAI your God are always on it, from the beginning of the year to the end of the year. 13 "So if you listen carefully to my mitzvot which I am giving you today, to love ADONAI your God and serve him with all your heart and all your being; 14 then, [says ADONAI,] 'I will give your land its rain at the right seasons, including the early fall rains and the late spring rains; so that you can gather in your wheat, new wine and olive oil; 15 and I will give your fields grass for your livestock; with the result that you will eat and be satisfied.' 16 But be careful not to let yourselves be seduced, so that you turn aside, serving other gods and worshipping them.

Deuteronomy (D'varim) 13:1-4 1 "If a prophet or someone who gets messages while dreaming arises among you and he gives you a sign or wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder comes about as he predicted when he said, 'Let's follow other gods, which you have not known; and let us serve them,' 3 you are not to listen to what that prophet or dreamer says. For ADONAI your God is testing you, in order to find out whether you really do love ADONAI your God with all your heart and being. 4 You are to follow ADONAI your God, fear him, obey his mitzvot, listen to what he says, serve him and cling to him;

Deuteronomy (D'varim) 30:5-6
5 ADONAI your God will bring you back into the land your ancestors possessed, and you will possess it; he will make you prosper there, and you will become even more numerous than your ancestors. 6 Then ADONAI your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your children, so that you will love ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being, and thus you will live.

Joshua 22:4-5
4 Now ADONAI your God has given rest to your kinsmen, as he told them he would. So you too, return to your tents in the land which is your possession, which Moshe the servant of ADONAI gave you beyond the Yarden. 5 Only take great care to obey the mitzvah and the Torah which Moshe the servant of ADONAI gave you - to love ADONAI your God, follow all his ways, observe his mitzvot, cling to him, and serve him with all your heart and being."

plum

15th June 2005, 12:09 PM

eeeexactly! Ah the Scriptures they pulse with life.

I think the person who said this:
I was just told this one new law is "love others as I have loved you". probably thinks that the "as i have loved you" is the new part which makes it a "new" law.

i still think that there is nothing new under the sun and Yeshua may have said something spoken already, just phrased in a new way. Doesn't mean it's brand spankin new.

Mikhail

15th June 2005, 12:54 PM

It seems like the issue is twofold:
"the old law has passed away" (which can easily be refuted. nevertheless it was apparently "nailed to the cross")
&
"Gentiles/Christians are not under and never were under the old law, so they get a new one".
So apparently when Yeshua did all his teaching about correcting the old law or the pharisees' interpretations of it, that was only beneficial to the Jews because it's a Jewish law only.

sheesh. something just keeps screaming inside of me that this logic and all its flowery spiritual lingo is just plain old wrong. And I want to respond to it!

*reading and bookmarking those articles* thanks you guys! I'm going to go read up and see if I can make sense of this.

I am currently reading Avi ben Mordechai's book on Galations the first half of which just paintst the background and concepts that were the norm for the Pharasees and then goes on to show how Paul as an ex Pharasee used the lingo that he knew to describe the difference so sublte that if you are not watching can be passed of as genuine just like a fake note that passes through the hands of 20 men before someone notices that something is not right, unfortunately we have gotten so used to the fake that when the real thing shows up it now looks strange to us, this is where we need to rely on the rock that the Kehillah was going to be built on "Revelation from the Father in Heaven to us" as Yeshua declared to Kefa.
Shalom,
Mikhail

ShirChadash

15th June 2005, 01:20 PM

eeeexactly! Ah the Scriptures they pulse with life.

I think the person who said this: probably thinks that the "as i have loved you" is the new part which makes it a "new" law.

See, I was thinking about this last night when you had posted and I figured that would be the response of anyone whom you tell that there is no "new law", in answer to the "Love one another as I have loved you."

And then it hit me... no, there was indeed no new law being given because what was Y'shua doing in the first place?

1) Loving His talmidim as He loved Himself (and thereby following the Torah command),

2) and He said, "Looky here ( ;) ), I have given you example, that so you also should do" and so,

3) His instruction to them, naturally as their rabbi, was, "love one another as *I* have loved you because *I* have exampled for you how to love one's neighbor as oneself. You have seen the Torah command in action -- imitate me."

Whoever said that there is an intelligent and truthful response to every twisted and misunderstood concept, was correct. There was no new law - simply a new look at the same law... and that is what Y'shua came to do -- to fill full our understanding of what the old means and why, and how to obey it more fully and in accordance with G-d's Will, etc.

plum

15th June 2005, 01:33 PM

you're right... rely on the rock.

I must pray for eyes and ears to be opened :prayer:

Jas 1:25 - But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

Jas 2:8 - If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;

Jas 2:9 - but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

Jas 2:10 - For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Jas 2:11 - For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Jas 2:12 - So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Jas 4:11 - Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

statement about the uses of "law" in James: I'll quote this gentleman who said it word for word. James is referring to more than one 'law' here and which one he is referencing is dependent upon the context.

For example, in James 1:25/2:12/2:8 the 'law of liberty' is not the Law of Moses. It is the law of Christ illustrated in the command to love God and love your fellow man.

James uses the Law of Moses in 2:10/2:11 as a point of illustration by which one could not claim they were a lawkeeper if they broke the Law of Moses even in a single point a single time. And although Christians are not now and never have been under the Law of Moses, to love some but not all under this new law of liberty has the same effect: If we do not love God in all and our brothers in all we become lawbreakers of Christ's law of liberty.

Again in 4:11, James is referring to the Law of Moses to make his point that speaking evil of a brother is not showing love to him and is therefore a breaking of the "law of liberty".

Remember, James was writing primarily to a Jewish/Christian audience and not to gentiles who had no clue about the Law of Moses. This is why he could draw upon obsolete references to the Law of Moses that no longer applied to them to illustrate how Christ New Covenant 'Royal Law/Law of Liberty' does.

:eek::doh:

I am just not a good debater. I want the ability to weave an argument that shows the law of liberty and the Torah to be the same thing exactly.

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
of any law whatsoever
a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a

by the observance of which is approved of God
a precept or injunction
the rule of action prescribed by reason

of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
Even the Lexicons think Christians can change the meanings of words.

plum

15th June 2005, 01:36 PM

See, I was thinking about this last night when you had posted and I figured that would be the response of anyone whom you tell that there is no "new law", in answer to the "Love one another as I have loved you."

And then it hit me... no, there was indeed no new law being given because what was Y'shua doing in the first place?

1) Loving His talmidim as He loved Himself (and thereby following the Torah command),

2) and He said, "Looky here ( ;) ), I have given you example, that so you also should do" and so,

3) His instruction to them, naturally as their rabbi, was, "love one another as *I* have loved you because *I* have exampled for you how to love one's neighbor as oneself. You have seen the Torah command in action -- imitate me."

Whoever said that there is an intelligent and truthful response to every twisted and misunderstood concept, was correct. There was no new law - simply a new look at the same law... and that is what Y'shua came to do -- to fill full our understanding of what the old means and why, and how to obey it more fully and in accordance with G-d's Will, etc.

:amen: :clap:
awesome thought!! i have never seen it that way before. of course, he is the Rabbi! they follow whatever he does and how he does it! brilliant. Yeshua, you are perfect in all your ways from eternity behind through eternity before!

Shimshon

15th June 2005, 02:05 PM

I want the ability to weave an argument that shows the law of liberty and the Torah to be the same thing exactly. You want the ability to argue that the Torah of Yeshua and the Torah of Moshe are the exact same thing? That the Torah Yeshua gave the talmidim to give the world, was the same Torah he gave Moshe to give Yisrael in the land?

You'd have to get around quite a few 'inspired' words. And the whole book of hebrews among others.

If you could prove this argument the Torah observant sect of MJ would have a creed. And Orthodox Judaism wouldn't have a leg to stand on. As it is they grasp at straws, or strawmen is more like it.

ShirChadash

15th June 2005, 04:15 PM

It always amazes me how anyone can think that the so-called "Torah of Moshe" is any different from the Torah of Y'shua -- they are one in the same... Y'shua the Torah. The Torah of Moshe is not Moshe's Torah he just came up with, as if it originates with Moshe and is nothing but man-made, fallible direction. No, the Torah is G-d's very instructions, delivered by His very Word (Y'shua), to Moshe His chosen servant, to speak and to write for the children of G-d to follow. "Lasting". "Eternal". Words such as these describe much of the Torah -- and for good reason.

Yes, Julia, you are correct -- Y'shua the Written Torah, and Y'shua the Living Torah. Know Torah, know Y'shua... no Torah, no Y'shua. And you're also right that apologetics can be a difficult undertaking, especially for us, because we Messianics often must unlearn the same indoctrination as we find others so steeped in and having difficulty entertaining the idea that a "different way" might be right and the long-held beliefs incorrect. Crosswalk.com is a great place to hone those apologetics skills, though. I never go there anymore, but used to frequent the Mars Hill chat and apologize for "fundamental" Christianity against staunch "fundy-haters" (you might say) and it was excellent for my ability to argue the Truth from the Word, I think.

Bless you as you are searching and in this spiritual season. :hug:

~Z~

Shimshon

15th June 2005, 04:32 PM

Psalms 118:19-29 19 Open the gates of righteousness for me; I will enter them and thank Yah. 20 This is the gate of ADONAI; the righteous can enter it. 21 I am thanking you because you answered me; you became my salvation. 22 The very rock that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone! 23 This has come from ADONAI, and in our eyes it is amazing.

Yeshayahu 29:13 Then Adonai said: "Because these people approach me with empty words, and the honor they bestow on me is mere lip-service; while in fact they have distanced their hearts from me, and their 'fear of me' is just a mitzvah of human origin 14 therefore, I will have to keep shocking these people with astounding and amazing things, until the 'wisdom' of their 'wise ones' vanishes, and the 'discernment' of their 'discerning ones' is hidden away."

Matthew 21:33-46 33 "Now listen to another parable. There was a farmer who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower; then he rented it to tenants and left. 34 When harvest-time came, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his share of the crop. 35 But the tenants seized his servants -- this one they beat up, that one they killed, another they stoned. 36 So he sent some other servants, more than the first group, and they did the same to them. 37 Finally, he sent them his son, saying, `My son they will respect.' 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, `This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance!' 39 So they grabbed him, threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" 41 They answered him, "He will viciously destroy those vicious men and rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the crop when it's due." 42 Yeshua said to them, "Haven't you ever read in the Tanakh, `The very rock which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone! This has come from ADONAI, and in our eyes it is amazing'? 43 Therefore, I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to the kind of people that will produce its fruit!"

45 As the head cohanim and the P'rushim listened to his stories, they saw that he was speaking about them.

ShirChadash

15th June 2005, 05:25 PM

Matt 23:1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe.

3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it.

But don't do what they do, because they talk but don't act!

Y'shua's own words.

He says, be hearers and doers -- that's action -- of the Torah of Life. Y'shua says, "do not be a hypocrite as one who talks but does not do."

My Rabbi knows of what He speaks.

Torah is not man-given and never was -- it is G-d given and G-d-commanded through His very Y'shua -- His Salvation, His Word. While men CAN do ANYthing without their hearts being in it -- it is not the fault of the Torah, but the fault of the MAN, when one obeys without a circumcised heart and does nothing more than "lip service", with his heart far from Abba.

Wags

15th June 2005, 07:15 PM

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Y'shua's own words.

He says, be hearers and doers -- that's action -- of the Torah of Life. Y'shua says, "do not be a hypocrite as one who talks but does not do."

My Rabbi knows of what He speaks.

Torah is not man-given and never was -- it is G-d given and G-d-commanded through His very Y'shua -- His Salvation, His Word. While men CAN do ANYthing without their hearts being in it -- it is not the fault of the Torah, but the fault of the MAN, when one obeys without a circumcised heart and does nothing more than "lip service", with his heart far from Abba.

Couldn't have said it better myself! :cool:

visionary

15th June 2005, 09:37 PM

I think there is mixup with just what we are under. The Jewish Christians naturally want to follow the Law, i think, not exactly in the way as the non-believeing Jews though, and of course they think that everyone should - not have to, but should.....i think this is natural for the Jew. Where a Gentile Christian views Jewish stuff with a bit of fear cause of all the warnings in the Bible, such as 'Oh foolish Galations" You are right. Gentiles were asked to be circumcised to be saved by the Jews.

Paul was trying to fight works of the law to help them understand the spirit and true intent of the law. Same law but with new spiritual understanding. It was not circumcision that was the problem, it was the spirit in which is was being presented. Circumcision is a outward sign of the inward change. If there was not inward change, then any outward acknowledgment was nothing more than a ritual. In the Jewish mind, it was a right of passage. Their enthusiam was a important tradition in this right of passage, but it was not walking in the spirit of truth to be circumcised for that reason. That was where it went wrong.

Those who are gentiles or jews look and see the law differently that those who have been born again. Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God's powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile. The Jews saw the law as a means to earn salvation. The gentiles who accepted the offer of salvation (the Messiah, the Lamb of God) and couldn't figure out where the law fit in because thought they may have naturally been obedient to many of the precept they did not acknowledge the author. John 4:22 You people don't know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. Those who are born again, whether of the Jew or gentile, see the harmony and oneness of the two. Acts 4:12 There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!" When we become one with the Lord we also can be like the Lord and walk in perfect harmony in the Law just as He did, through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Iollain

16th June 2005, 12:10 AM

Visionary, that just made a lot of sence to me, explains the disagreement that James and Peter had, Peter had greater insight from God on what the Gentiles needed at that point in their Salvation.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to visionary again.

Bananna

16th June 2005, 01:41 AM

I'm getting a bit fed up with my frustration :)
I've been frequenting the crosswalk.com forums, which I enjoy so far, but I keep getting told this comment that I don't really know how to intelligently respond to.
Does anyone have any resources that respond to this statement? what do you think?

Christians/Gentiles are only under the Law of Christ!

What in the sam hill does this mean? What new law did Yeshua say that wasn't in the Torah?
I was just told this one new law is "love others as I have loved you".
why are people so firmly set on this notion that Yeshua and G-d are not one? that the Son cancels out the Father? That the Father's law is only good for pointing out what sin is? that cannot be its only function. Why do Christians believe in two laws? arg. help? :(

Well before I read all the other responses. They reject the Living Torah for a facade. They do not truly accept Messiah, because they do not truly accept torah. "Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord......I will say to them 'depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you'"

Sorry this is raw, but frankly that is what I see the scriptures saying.
bananna

tdcharles

16th June 2005, 02:40 AM

n/m.

Tishri1

16th June 2005, 01:18 PM

has anyone read Tim Hague's two part article in the last two issues of FFOZ's magazine...ahhhhhh it was perfect for this conversation!

I can't do it justice but here are a few points:1 Corinthians 9:20-22 20 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews;
-he already is a Jew so what is he saying?
2 points:
1. This is Hebrew parallelism and repeats the thought in the next verse...
2. As a member of the Jewish community he will come under their Torah (the one that has the fences) in order to accomplish his goal of saving some.

to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law;
- 1. Hebrew Parallelism is here: " as a Jew"= " under the Law" = "The Fences"
2. He is not under the law ("under the law" is an IDIOM refering to the set of Jewish Law /Torah known to us today as "the fences". One of those fences was being beaten or suffer expulsion from the community for breaking certain Laws-he chose the beating thus "Coming under the Law"...And... He did that more than once!). So Paul chose something he was free from so that he could stay with them and not be cast out because of his desire to "save some".

21 to those who are without law, as without law,
-1. more Hebrew parallelism below ...
2. "without Law" was an IDIOM for the nations/gentiles or anyone not a prostlyte to Judiasm.

and here is his heart again...though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law.
-Here is a little jab at "Their Law" and a confession for exactly what he is "under": Yeshua and the Torah of God..."not being without the Law"

22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak;
-1. Hebrew parellelsm: without law = the weak= gentles
2. yep another IDIOM for gentile..."The Weak"

I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.
Obviously he isn't becomming a sinner, or a lawless one, he is saying I will stay in my community and under the Law (fences) if it will save Jews and be counted weak and without law (IDIOMS that ment becoming as a gentile) to save Gentiles.

Shimshon

16th June 2005, 01:48 PM

Exactly Tishri, and this is how people take it out of context. They hold to the "i'm a jew under the law" and ignore the 'i'm without the law to the gentiles'. Just like they see Yeshua speaking in the context of the parushim and assume he was a parush. Because he was called 'Rabbi'. He is ROHI, our shepherd. He is our Heavenly teacher. The rabbim were to be formed into his image, but they were not. Thus the remark to NOT do what they do.

But we were to listen to what they were saying. Because they were SUPPOSED to be saying, 'the righteous will live by faith". But they were not. So, do what they tell you, because they are sitting in the seat of GODS! authority. Which was the seat of Moshe to them. But they were not using Gods authority, they were usurping it.

Yes, we should do all they say. WHEN they say ALL that God said. Otherwise, DO NOT DO WHAT THEY DO, when they say "righteousness" comes by ANY other way but what I told you.

Torah

16th June 2005, 02:59 PM

Tishri1 :thumbsup: has anyone read Tim Hague's two part article in the last two issues of FFOZ's magazine...ahhhhhh it was perfect for this conversation!
Yes it is very good. :amen:

Mikhail

17th June 2005, 01:16 PM

[QUOTE=Tishri1]has anyone read Tim Hague's two part article in the last two issues of FFOZ's magazine...ahhhhhh it was perfect for this conversation!/QUOTE]

mmm me thinks I might have to subscribe to this mag.
It's shabbat so I will look next week, Saturday night ;)
Shabbat Shalom everyone,
Mikhail ben Gino

Tishri1

17th June 2005, 01:21 PM

shabbat shalom:wave:

plum

17th June 2005, 02:33 PM

Yes I read that article just this past week. Loved it! Tim Hegg's got some fabulous teachings that I can actually grasp. :)

I highly recommend 'messiah magazine'! And well, just about everything FFOZ puts out I love, so yeah. hehe
http://ffoz.org/Magazines/

Tishri1

17th June 2005, 02:51 PM

note: Reading the scriptures with these Idioms and Hebraic thoughts in mind sure does help bring understanding to alot of contradictions in the NT.

plum

17th June 2005, 03:05 PM

good fun: Google searching "hebrew idions in the bible"

Tishri1

17th June 2005, 04:04 PM

good fun: Google searching "hebrew idions in the bible"did ya come up with stuff?

ShirChadash

19th June 2005, 03:28 AM

good fun: Google searching "hebrew idions in the bible"

Has anyone seen this site before?

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/index.htm

That's the home page, but I got there by first getting to a discussion on that site by doing a google search on those terms, missju (Hebrew Idioms Bible).

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Bible/Bible%20Study%20Course/Chapter%203.htm

They have other interesting links and I quick-scanned a list of some articles...

http://www.helsinki.fi/~merenlah/oppimateriaalit/text/english/judaism.htm

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Jesus/would.htm

http://www.biblicalheritage.org/BHR/bhr.htm

Their "About us" page:
http://www.biblicalheritage.org/Admin/About_BHC.htm