Universal Opportunity

[ChiRho]

Do Baptists believe that everyone will have an opportunity to be saved?

Also, if you do, could you provide for me the source? example...Scripture (verse), logically infered from Scripture (which verse), etc

Thanks.

[hindsey]

I assume you are thinking of the "tribes in Africa..." that have never heard the Gospel. Am I wrong with that assumption? You'll also find this to be different among Baptists as a whole, so I do not necessarily represent all Baptists when I write this.

I believe that everyone is given a revelation of God through nature and through their consciences (Psalm 19:1, Romans 2:15). If a person responds positively to this revelation from God, that is, if they acknowledge there is a Creator, and they realize their deeds are wrong because their conscience tells them, and they respond positively with a humbled attitude, then I believe God will make sure the name of Jesus Christ reaches that person, because by the name of Jesus men must be saved (Acts 4:12). If a person responds negatively, that is, if they don't have remorse for their sin or don't believe that God exists, then God may never reveal the name of Jesus to them.

[ChiRho]

I assume you are thinking of the "tribes in Africa..." that have never heard the Gospel. Am I wrong with that assumption? You'll also find this to be different among Baptists as a whole, so I do not necessarily represent all Baptists when I write this.

I believe that everyone is given a revelation of God through nature and through their consciences (Psalm 19:1, Romans 2:15). If a person responds positively to this revelation from God, that is, if they acknowledge there is a Creator, and they realize their deeds are wrong because their conscience tells them, and they respond positively with a humbled attitude, then I believe God will make sure the name of Jesus Christ reaches that person, because by the name of Jesus men must be saved (Acts 4:12). If a person responds negatively, that is, if they don't have remorse for their sin or don't believe that God exists, then God may never reveal the name of Jesus to them.

Thanks. So, it is a theory that is drawn from logical inference of different Scriptural passages, not based upon a single explicit verse?

[newbeliever02072005]

I believe that everyone is given a revelation of God through nature and through their consciences (Psalm 19:1, Romans 2:15). If a person responds positively to this revelation from God, that is, if they acknowledge there is a Creator, and they realize their deeds are wrong because their conscience tells them, and they respond positively with a humbled attitude, then I believe God will make sure the name of Jesus Christ reaches that person, because by the name of Jesus men must be saved (Acts 4:12). If a person responds negatively, that is, if they don't have remorse for their sin or don't believe that God exists, then God may never reveal the name of Jesus to them.

Excuse the interuption, I was hoping for some clarification...please?

Hindsey you mention that if someone that recognizes there is a Creator of nature and humbles himself God will reach this person. Did I understand that right? Are you saying that God will give them salvation? If this is what you are saying I wonder this. How would those people put the connection together of recognizing the Creator and asking for forgiviness of sins. I thought part of salvation was knowing Jesus died on the cross for us, asking for forgiveness and believing he rose to heaven giving us the gift of eternity with God. There are lots of people , my husband included that knows that there is a "spirit" behind all things. However he doesn't associate that with asking for forgiveness of his sins. Wouldn't this be the case of someone that doesn't have access to the bible?

Also, you mention conscience. They will know through that. Coudln't the conscience just give you a sense of being respectful to nature and who created it?


I've been wondering this for a little bit and never really have understand this. I am thankful that I know the Lord and I live in a country that provides me with opportunity to have many bibles in my home. I wonder what provisions are made for people that are not so lucky to have the word in front of them.

Thank you for taking the time to read my questions and I hope I didn't intrude to much.

Take care and God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[RED that's ME]

We have a limited ability knowing how the gospel will be reached to all people.

God's Word says, that people can see him even through creation and they won't have any excuse.

Romans 1:19-21

[arunma]

Do Baptists believe that everyone will have an opportunity to be saved?

Also, if you do, could you provide for me the source? example...Scripture (verse), logically infered from Scripture (which verse), etc

I'm a Calvinist, so I believe that there are "tribes in Africa" who will recieve the fullness of the Gospel, as well as natives of the Bible Belt in America who will never recieve the Gospel. As Hindsey said, God gives everyone the opportunity to repent. In the Old Testament days, people were saved by belief in a Messiah whose name they didn't even know yet. Perhaps people can still be saved if they have faith that God will ransom them. But if that is so, then such people will recieve the Gospel quite eagerly, should it be preached to them.

To clarify, I don't think that anyone can reject Christ Jesus and be saved.

[ChiRho]

I'm a Calvinist, so I believe that there are "tribes in Africa" who will recieve the fullness of the Gospel, as well as natives of the Bible Belt in America who will never recieve the Gospel. As Hindsey said, God gives everyone the opportunity to repent. In the Old Testament days, people were saved by belief in a Messiah whose name they didn't even know yet. Perhaps people can still be saved if they have faith that God will ransom them. But if that is so, then such people will recieve the Gospel quite eagerly, should it be preached to them.

To clarify, I don't think that anyone can reject Christ Jesus and be saved.

Source?

[hindsey]

Excuse the interuption, I was hoping for some clarification...please?

Hindsey you mention that if someone that recognizes there is a Creator of nature and humbles himself God will reach this person. Did I understand that right? Are you saying that God will give them salvation? If this is what you are saying I wonder this. How would those people put the connection together of recognizing the Creator and asking for forgiviness of sins. I thought part of salvation was knowing Jesus died on the cross for us, asking for forgiveness and believing he rose to heaven giving us the gift of eternity with God. There are lots of people , my husband included that knows that there is a "spirit" behind all things. However he doesn't associate that with asking for forgiveness of his sins. Wouldn't this be the case of someone that doesn't have access to the bible?

Also, you mention conscience. They will know through that. Coudln't the conscience just give you a sense of being respectful to nature and who created it?


I've been wondering this for a little bit and never really have understand this. I am thankful that I know the Lord and I live in a country that provides me with opportunity to have many bibles in my home. I wonder what provisions are made for people that are not so lucky to have the word in front of them.

Thank you for taking the time to read my questions and I hope I didn't intrude to much.

Take care and God Bless!
newbeliever :)

To clarify: Noone can be saved if they have not heard the name of Jesus Christ. My understanding is that if they respond positively to the revelation they have recieved, then God will bring them a witness of the Gospel, to them in this lifetime.

[hindsey]

Yes, what I've written is a logical inference...

What is it you believe?

[newbeliever02072005]

To clarify: Noone can be saved if they have not heard the name of Jesus Christ. My understanding is that if they respond positively to the revelation they have recieved, then God will bring them a witness of the Gospel, to them in this lifetime.


Does this mean it is our responsiblity to make sure the word is spread to everyone?

[hindsey]

... meant to reply above...

[hindsey]

Does this mean it is our responsiblity to make sure the word is spread to everyone?

Absolutely it is. And we're to try to persuade them that the Gospel is true.

[arunma]

Source?

Romans 1:20-21.

Does this mean it is our responsiblity to make sure the word is spread to everyone?

It absolutely is our responsibility to spread the word to everyone. See? Calvinists are good about missionary work too!

By the way, I have to respectfully disagree with Hindsey (sort of). There do exist people, throughout history, who are literally not capable of hearing the Gospel. In the first few centuries of the church, many nations which had not been discipled had no idea who the Christ was. I don't claim to know for certain that these people could be saved, but I think it's a possibility.

That said, I think that everyone who hears the Gospel and still rejects it will most certainly be condemned.

[Flynmonkie]

God wants all to be saved, He takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. However some will resist salvation. So not all will be saved. Not because God has not offered this, but that He has given us the ability to choose our path. He does not force us with some predestined knowledge to believe in Him because some are chosen before time to be saved and others were created to be dammed. People whom believe this are missing a wonderful aspect of Gods Grace and don’t do it justice. Not only did He offer salvation, but the opportunity to choose. We are to share the gospel, we are here to confirm not convict. This is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit alone. As far as the possibility that some may never hear the gospel, I believe this is for God to know. But I feel assured if someone is out there that has not heard of the gospel, they will not be dammed for eternity. It causes God to be contradictory this is not possible.

Lemme ask you, have you ever felt something was right, or wrong, but had no scripture in mind……only to find it later in the Bible you were right? This is how the HS works in me. I cannot judge how the spirit would work in others however scripture seems to be clear that it works through our conscious. And of course trying and testing in the Bible.

I get a lot of flack for this, but I believe this is possibly what goes on with people that are seeking, they walk into a Christian “camp” with some preconceived notions that are not in the Bible, trying to make sense of things. That is where we come in…. to focus them on scripture and how to study and let God do the rest.


Fact of the matter is....The Holy Spirit is simply greater than all of this. And definitely greater than anything we can think or do. IMVHO :)

[hindsey]

Romans 1:20-21.



It absolutely is our responsibility to spread the word to everyone. See? Calvinists are good about missionary work too!

By the way, I have to respectfully disagree with Hindsey (sort of). There do exist people, throughout history, who are literally not capable of hearing the Gospel. In the first few centuries of the church, many nations which had not been discipled had no idea who the Christ was. I don't claim to know for certain that these people could be saved, but I think it's a possibility.

That said, I think that everyone who hears the Gospel and still rejects it will most certainly be condemned.

Arunma, I think the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius and the Macedonian man are all examples of people that didn't have a chance of hearing of who the Messiah was unless God had supernaturally intervened. I think those 3 are examples of people that responded positively to the light they had, and God provided them the gospel.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me on this... God is just. If I'm wrong, I'm sure God's got it under control - if you're wrong, same thing!

[CHARLES H]

Absolutely it is. And we're to try to persuade them that the Gospel is true.

actually our job is to preach the gospel and theHOLY SPIRIT will reveal truth to the person. also if anybody doesn't recieve us we should wipe the dust off our feet and move on.

[hindsey]

actually our job is to preach the gospel and theHOLY SPIRIT will reveal truth to the person. also if anybody doesn't recieve us we should wipe the dust off our feet and move on.
2Co 5:11

11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

You're right that our job is to preach the gospel. And you're right that the Holy Spirit needs to reveal the truth to the person. But, like the Apostle Paul, we are supposed to try to persuade men.

[CHARLES H]

2Co 5:11

11: Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

You're right that our job is to preach the gospel. And you're right that the Holy Spirit needs to reveal the truth to the person. But, like the Apostle Paul, we are supposed to try to persuade men.


matt10:5-15,luke10:1-12

[hindsey]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, Charles, but I see in Matthew 10 that Jesus commanded that they don't go to the Gentiles. Maybe the context of that passage is not directly referring to the topic at hand?

[CHARLES H]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, Charles, but I see in Matthew 10 that Jesus commanded that they don't go to the Gentiles. Maybe the context of that passage is not directly referring to the topic at hand?

i'm just saying that some people will not convert no matter what we say to them but we still must tell them

[hindsey]

i'm just saying that some people will not convert no matter what we say to them but we still must tell them

I agree 100%. We still must tell them. And we need to try to convince and persuade them. But some of them, even if we do everything "right" will still not hear.

[CHARLES H]

I agree 100%. We still must tell them. And we need to try to convince and persuade them. But some of them, even if we do everything "right" will still not hear.

sadly i agree:(

[arunma]

Arunma, I think the Ethiopian eunuch, Cornelius and the Macedonian man are all examples of people that didn't have a chance of hearing of who the Messiah was unless God had supernaturally intervened. I think those 3 are examples of people that responded positively to the light they had, and God provided them the gospel.

I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me on this... God is just. If I'm wrong, I'm sure God's got it under control - if you're wrong, same thing!

Hindsey, I do respect your opinion, even if I don't fully agree with it. I'm extremely opposed to the doctrine of universalism (the belief that all non-Christians are saved). Your end of the spectrum is far more desirable.

[novcncy]

I'm extremely opposed to the doctrine of universalism (the belief that all non-Christians are saved). Your end of the spectrum is far more desirable.

Couldn't agree with you more on this one, arunma. This is quite the civilized discussion y'all were having, and it was a pleasure to read it, FWIW.

[newbeliever02072005]

I believe that everyone is given a revelation of God through nature and through their consciences (Psalm 19:1, Romans 2:15). If a person responds positively to this revelation from God, that is, if they acknowledge there is a Creator, and they realize their deeds are wrong because their conscience tells them, and they respond positively with a humbled attitude, then I believe God will make sure the name of Jesus Christ reaches that person, because by the name of Jesus men must be saved (Acts 4:12). If a person responds negatively, that is, if they don't have remorse for their sin or don't believe that God exists, then God may never reveal the name of Jesus to them.

Hello Hindsey,

I was reading a book called "No Easy Road" by Dick Eastman. In the chapter about "A Mountain of Persistence" there is a section about how we can change the world. After reading this I remembered about this thread and wanted to give a section of it and tell me if this is what you were talking about, please? :)

A story is told of an atheist who made his home in London. His wife possessed a Bible she consistently read. One day in raging anger he hurled this Book of books into a flaming fire and stormed out the door. Later he returned to watch this Bible burn. Gazing into the fire he noted one small portion unburned. Fastening trembling fingers to the page he read, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away." Soon the infidel fell before the fire seeking God's forgiveness.

Was this what you were trying to say when you said the conscience will just know? The atheist had a revelation from that verse he read so then he asked for forgiveness from God. If, so I can see how we definately need to keep telling and spreading the news about Jesus. Being pressistent in our efforts and consistent because what we say might be used by God to give a revelation to someone. Am I off base on this?

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[Athanasian Creed]

I'm a Calvinist, so I believe that there are "tribes in Africa" who will recieve the fullness of the Gospel, as well as natives of the Bible Belt in America who will never recieve the Gospel. As Hindsey said, God gives everyone the opportunity to repent. In the Old Testament days, people were saved by belief in a Messiah whose name they didn't even know yet. Perhaps people can still be saved if they have faith that God will ransom them. But if that is so, then such people will recieve the Gospel quite eagerly, should it be preached to them.

To clarify, I don't think that anyone can reject Christ Jesus and be saved.

Soooo...as a Calvinist how can you believe "God gives everyone the opportunity to repent" and believe in limited atonement ??? Is it not true, according to Calvinism, that Christ died only for the elect and the rest He has "reprobated" ?? If all men are "dead" in sin and some are damned to hell before being born, how can persons not part of the elect repent or have faith IF God has already decreed that they are going to hell AND in order for one to either repent or have faith, that would mean the person would have to exercise their will to do so nor not, hence, free will which Calvinism denies.

Please understand, i'm not trying to pick a fight and i'm asking in honest sincerity. Calvinists LOVE to quote Charles Spurgeon, himself a Calvinist yet they don't realize that he was AT BEST shaking in his belief of Calvinism, especially limited atonement. He preached compelling sinners to accept God's free gift of salvation. He often prayed, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect, AND THEN ELECT SOME MORE" !!! Spurgeon's Calvinism was of such a character that while he proclaimed the majesty of God "he did not hesitate to ascribe freedom of will to man and to insist that any man might find in Jesus Christ deliverance form the power of sin." (Edwin H. Palmer, "The Five Points of Calvinism", pp. 95, 124-135)


Ray :wave:

[Athanasian Creed]

Hindsey, I do respect your opinion, even if I don't fully agree with it. I'm extremely opposed to the doctrine of universalism (the belief that all non-Christians are saved). Your end of the spectrum is far more desirable.

But we are not talking about "all" non-Christians, we are only talking about those who've never heard the Gospel or the Name of Jesus Christ. ;)

But i share your opposition to universalism - it is by grace through faith in Jesus that we are saved. Anyone who has heard the Gospel and rejects it remains under God's wrath.


Ray :wave:

[BBAS 64]

Soooo...as a Calvinist how can you believe "God gives everyone the opportunity to repent" and believe in limited atonement ??? Is it not true, according to Calvinism, that Christ died only for the elect and the rest He has "reprobated" ?? If all men are "dead" in sin and some are damned to hell before being born, how can persons not part of the elect repent or have faith IF God has already decreed that they are going to hell AND in order for one to either repent or have faith, that would mean the person would have to exercise their will to do so nor not, hence, free will which Calvinism denies.

Please understand, i'm not trying to pick a fight and i'm asking in honest sincerity. Calvinists LOVE to quote Charles Spurgeon, himself a Calvinist yet they don't realize that he was AT BEST shaking in his belief of Calvinism, especially limited atonement. He preached compelling sinners to accept God's free gift of salvation. He often prayed, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect, AND THEN ELECT SOME MORE" !!! Spurgeon's Calvinism was of such a character that while he proclaimed the majesty of God "he did not hesitate to ascribe freedom of will to man and to insist that any man might find in Jesus Christ deliverance form the power of sin." (Edwin H. Palmer, "The Five Points of Calvinism", pp. 95, 124-135)


Ray :wave:

Good Day, Ray

In reading this quote from Edwin Plamer it makes me wonder how much reading of Spurgeon's own work he did?

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm


Free will



"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40.http://www.spurgeon.org/images/t2.gifhis is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense.


http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm



Were was he shaky on Limited attonement, " particular redemption" he did 4-5 sermons on th subject.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0181.htm

"Elect some more" .. it is clear that in his zeal for souls of men he had a clear understanding that the election of God was the nessary step. I am looking for the quote in context.

Found this in a Bio.

This breadth of heart was revealed on another occasion when in his prayer at a Thursday evening service he dared to go far beyond his creed, and in his passion for the souls of men cried, "Lord, hasten to bring in all Thine elect—and then elect some more."


No source for this quote on the web bio. http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/bio8.htm
Peace to u,

Bill

[Athanasian Creed]

Spurgeon did at times confirmed Limited Atonement but was unable to escape his God-given conscience. His evangelist's heart often betrayed itself in statements expressing a compassion for the lost and a desire for their salvation - a compassion that contradicts the Calvinism he preached at other times. He declared -

"As it is my wish (and) your wish...so it is God's wish that all men should be saved...He is no less benevolent than we are."
- Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 26:49-52

John MacArthur declares
"God's love is for the world in general, the human race, all humanity...the fact that God promises to forgive...and even pleads with sinners to repent - proves His love toward them (the whole world)"
- "The Love of God", pp. 86, 15

It is impossible to reconcile those statements with the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It is irrational to say that God sincerely desires the salvation of all, yet sent His Son to die for only some !

BTW, must the elect be regenerated before they can have faith ?? (116,124)


Ray :wave:

[Flynmonkie]

His evangelist's heart often betrayed itself in statements expressing a compassion for the lost and a desire for their salvation - a compassion that contradicts the Calvinism he preached at other times. He declared -

John MacArthur declares
"God's love is for the world in general, the human race, all humanity...the fact that God promises to forgive...and even pleads with sinners to repent - proves His love toward them (the whole world)"
- "The Love of God", pp. 86, 15
BTW, must the elect be regenerated before they can have faith ?? (116,124)


Ray :wave:

John MacArthur has been heard to consider himself a "leaky" calvinist for this exact reason.

[BBAS 64]

Spurgeon did at times confirmed Limited Atonement but was unable to escape his God-given conscience. His evangelist's heart often betrayed itself in statements expressing a compassion for the lost and a desire for their salvation - a compassion that contradicts the Calvinism he preached at other times.

Good Day, Athanasian Creed

I have no idea how one comes to the conclusion that Calvinism contradicts compassion for the lost, ever heard of Judson? I would say that due to the nature of regeneration one has a compassion for the lost, lost men could careless over lost people.

He declared -

"As it is my wish (and) your wish...so it is God's wish that all men should be saved...He is no less benevolent than we are."
- Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Vol. 26:49-52

I have read that address, Spurgeon made a Hermemeutics error with reguards to this passage in Tim.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men;

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

Are the "all Men" in verse 4, the same people as "men" verse 5?


John MacArthur declares
"God's love is for the world in general, the human race, all humanity...the fact that God promises to forgive...and even pleads with sinners to repent - proves His love toward them (the whole world)"
- "The Love of God", pp. 86, 15

It is impossible to reconcile those statements with the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It is irrational to say that God sincerely desires the salvation of all, yet sent His Son to die for only some !

BTW, must the elect be regenerated before they can have faith ?? (116,124)


Ray :wave:

Have not read that work, I amsure some one will comment on the passage from MacArthur. You assume that God loves all people the same that is just not true. You and I do not love all the people we love in the same manner, or fashion why would you assume God does?

Yes!

The regenerated are the ones that God replaces their stoney hearts with a heart of flesh, and the direct result of God's work they are his people and He is their God.

Peace to u,

Bill

[Athanasian Creed]

I asked earlier:

BTW, must the elect be regenerated before they can have faith ??

Bill answered:

Yes!

The regenerated are the ones that God replaces their stoney hearts with a heart of flesh, and the direct result of God's work they are his people and He is their God.


The fact is Bill, that nowhere in Scripture is there a suggestion that man must be regenerated before he can be saved by faith in Christ. Many Scriptures declare the opposite, "...to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim 3:15), and "ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:26) and "for by grace are ye saved " (Eph 2:8) Faith ALWAYS precedes salvation/regeneration. There is not one Scripture that states clearly that regeneration comes first and then faith follows.

Spurgeon said, "A man who is regenerated IS SAVED". John MacArthur also equates being saved and regenerated ("The Love of God, Part 5, Romans 9) Even Calvin himself said, "Every man from the commencement of his faith becomes a Christian."

If the elect must be regenerated BEFORE they have faith, their regeneration still leaves them non-Christians since the Bible says a man is saved BY FAITH and thereby becomes a Christian (John 6:47; 11:25; 20:31; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:9; I Cor 1:21; Hebrews 10:39, etc.)
Spurgeon did not accept this part of Calvinism and therefore said it was "ridiculous" to prach Christ to the regenerate. ("The Warrant of Faith"/3) Faith precedes salvation and is in fact a condition of salvation (Mark 16:16; Luke 8:12; 1 Cor 15:1,2, etc.) These Scriptures are clear; in order to support "regeneration before faith" it must be proved that regeneration leaves one still unsaved and thus under God's judgement. But such a view is both unbiblical and irrational. ;)


Ray :wave:

[BBAS 64]

I asked earlier:

BTW, must the elect be regenerated before they can have faith ??

Bill answered:

Yes!

The regenerated are the ones that God replaces their stoney hearts with a heart of flesh, and the direct result of God's work they are his people and He is their God.


The fact is Bill, that nowhere in Scripture is there a suggestion that man must be regenerated before he can be saved by faith in Christ. Many Scriptures declare the opposite, "...to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim 3:15), and "ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:26) and "for by grace are ye saved " (Eph 2:8) Faith ALWAYS precedes salvation/regeneration. There is not one Scripture that states clearly that regeneration comes first and then faith follows.

Spurgeon said, "A man who is regenerated IS SAVED". John MacArthur also equates being saved and regenerated ("The Love of God, Part 5, Romans 9) Even Calvin himself said, "Every man from the commencement of his faith becomes a Christian."

If the elect must be regenerated BEFORE they have faith, their regeneration still leaves them non-Christians since the Bible says a man is saved BY FAITH and thereby becomes a Christian (John 6:47; 11:25; 20:31; Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 10:9; I Cor 1:21; Hebrews 10:39, etc.)
Spurgeon did not accept this part of Calvinism and therefore said it was "ridiculous" to prach Christ to the regenerate. ("The Warrant of Faith"/3) Faith precedes salvation and is in fact a condition of salvation (Mark 16:16; Luke 8:12; 1 Cor 15:1,2, etc.) These Scriptures are clear; in order to support "regeneration before faith" it must be proved that regeneration leaves one still unsaved and thus under God's judgement. But such a view is both unbiblical and irrational. ;)


Ray :wave:




Good day, Ray

You assume the "salvation and regeneration" are the same they are not.

Salvation:

sōtēria

so-tay-ree'-ah

Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

Regeneration:

paliggenesia

Thayer Definition:

1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

1e) other uses

1e1) of Cicero’s restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

1e2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

1e3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection





One is in the safe state of salvation though a savior after regeneration rebirth.

They go to hand in hand. Those who are reborn "regenerated" are given Faith, then are saved though that given Faith. Even though they are defined diffently and have meanings of their own they are connected for His purpose according to His good pleasure.

Faith:

pistis

Thayer Definition:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it

1a) relating to God

1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ

1b) relating to Christ

1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God

1c) the religious beliefs of Christians

1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

I noticed you did not touch the ref. to Scripture, Why ?

What is a heart of stone?
What is a heart of flesh?

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

John MacArthur has been heard to consider himself a "leaky" calvinist for this exact reason.

Good Day, Flynmonkie

"has been heard" Do you have a source as to the context of such a statement?

Peace to u,

Bill

***************************** EDIT***************************

Found it here :

http://p207.ezboard.com/fdiscussingreformationfrm1.showMessage?topicID=396.topic

Bill

[Flynmonkie]

Yes, I have been looking for it. It was about a year ago that I ran across this statement......and I cannot remember where. :) But when I find it.....I will hunt this thread down. I have used MacArthur studies quite a bit, including my Bible and I own his complete library. He was and has been my "introductory teacher" in many ways. I believe it was on a site though.... either by interview.... or it might have been a "audio". When I locate it I will drop it by. I also remember catching a few statements here and there, in books that would suggest this.

[Flynmonkie]

Yes that is it! Thanks!
Let’s go back over it. Number one: Man is totally depraved, no question. Number two: God does choose us to be saved, “Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.” Right? But Calvin got a little bit far out at this point with his logic. Jesus also said, “Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” “Him that cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out.” Calvin couldn’t fit that too well into his logical system. But that’s just the point. That’s a tension, isn’t it? Those are two contradictory terms: God saves us, and yet we have to be involved. But we’re awful sinners, vile. We have no good thing in us. How can we be involved? That’s the marvelous paradox, the mystery of redemption. But Calvin was too hard, you see? He wanted to push too far. Third thing he said was, therefore if only some are elect, Christ only died for the elect. But the problem with that is, it says in I John 2, that “He died not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world.” And then he came up with irresistible grace. And Jesus even says, “You will not come to me that you might have life.” They resisted, in a sense, didn’t they? And in Romans 11, He says, “All day long have I stretched out my arms to a stiff-necked and disobedient people.”

So you see, the logic of Calvin’s system works. It’s just that it needs to be softened and defined by the Scripture. So I would say that at best, I am a leaky Calvinist. OK?

I belive spiritual discernment plays a huge part in this. For the life of me I cannot understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. But I too sat in this mess a little over a year ago......and it took time to grasp too. We become elect after our faith. We are given the ability of faith - everyone- as part of Gods Gracious Mercy. Not only does he grace us with a way out (salvation) in that gift, He gives the abiltiy to make that choice. At that point it is up to us to make a decision. He does not force, or predestine us with some foreknowledge to save some and pass over others. The opportunity is there for all. However not all will be saved. Is that our Gracious Fathers fault? Of course not, it is because we have failed him. I receive a lot of flack from Calvinists accusing me of being "universalist". However nothing can be farther from the truth. God wants all of us to be saved, however not all will be. Calvinists usually come back at me with "If God wills something it will happen". There is a big difference between what God wills and what God desires (wants). When God wills it is a command, a fact. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but urges us to repent. He is a God of Love first and foremost in every aspect of study. This should flavor everything we think or believe of God. For those whom do not know Love, Do not know God, God is Love.IMVHO