Found a Great Site.

[Sevryn45]

If you want to learn about the Early Church Fathers and read what they wrote go to www.biblefacts.org (http://www.biblefacts.org) , they got some alsome info there you can read up on and study.

Very Informative.

[PassthePeace1]

If you want to learn about the Early Church Fathers and read what they wrote go to www.biblefacts.org (http://www.biblefacts.org/) , they got some alsome info there you can read up on and study.

Very Informative.

More like misinformation!!! For an example it pulls quotes form Early Church Fathers, to try and make a claim for Bible as the sole authority...it quotes several of the ECF, many who lived before the bible was Cannonized...lol..see below..

Biblical Authority

On the early church
The early Church fathers taught that the New Testament was the final authority for Christians. Anyone requiring you to believe a doctrine that is not clearly taught in scripture is to be ignored. there never was any secret doctrine handed down by the apostles that is not clearly taught in the scriptures.

Here is what the early church fathers said:


Irenaeus 178 AD
Against Heresies 3.2 - Heretics allege truth was delivered not by written documents, but by oral tradition. Without this oral tradition you can't properly interpret the Scriptures.
Against Heresies 3.3 - The Apostles did not pass down any hidden wisdom, just the scriptures. If an older written document contradicts the newer written document we believe the older.
Against Heresies 4.26 - Obey the presbyters who are in the Church,--those who possess the succession from the apostles; together with the succession of the episcopate, who have received the certain gift of truth. But it is also incumbent to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession. Avoid all who do not hold to the doctrine of the Apostles, including Presbyters.
Against Heresies 4.33 - The doctrine of the apostles, has been guarded and preserved without any forging of Scriptures, as a very complete system of doctrine. Neither receive addition to or suffer curtailment from its truths. Read the word of God without falsification, lawfully and diligently explaining them in harmony with the rest of the Scriptures.
The bible was cannonize in the late 4th century, at the Councils of Hippo 393 A.D. and Carthage 397 A.D...So how can the church fathers teach that the Bible was the final authority, if it hadn't been Cannonized yet?

[Sevryn45]

The bible was cannonize in the late 4th century, at the Councils of Hippo 393 A.D. and Carthage 397 A.D...So how can the church fathers teach that the Bible was the final authority, if it hadn't been Cannonized yet?

Because Scripture was written by the Apostoles before the official Cannonization took place. Scripture existed in the first Century, also if you bothered to read the 27 NT books you would realize that these books affirm each other.

Your argument is that from silence, if you're so knowledgable about ECF's please give me resources where it says that Scripture is not authoratative and tradition of men is.

[PassthePeace1]

Went to a more reliable source, there they have the complete writings...he was speaking about the Gnostics using scripture(OT, btw) to support their beliefs, which is completly opposite of what your site claimed they were say...some how that the ECF were supporting Sola Scriptura.

I also compare there quotes from St. Clement of Alexandra, he too was refuting Gnostic claims....

Here is the link, for more accurate historcial facts.

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies (St. Irenaeus) (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103.htm)

You can also research many of the ECF, at that site..

[Sevryn45]

Went to a more reliable source, there they have the complete writings...he was speaking about the Gnostics using scripture(OT, btw) to support their beliefs, which is completly opposite of what your site claimed they were say...some how that the ECF were supporting Sola Scriptura

lol ANd? It was against Heresies and it can be applied to today as well, and yes these Church father's did support Sola Scriptura they were the pupils of the apostoles. You as a Catholic appeal to the ECF for oral tradition, but your claim is refuted by the Church fathers nearly 4 centuries before RCC was established.

[Sevryn45]

Went to a more reliable source, there they have the complete writings

They Have complete writings on http://www.biblefacts.org/ecf/indexv1.html as (http://www.as) well stop your meddling, you went to that site looked at one thing and did not even bother look under the Church Fathers to find the complete writings. Instead you came here and started a silent argument, I prefer that site over newadvent anyway everyhting is listed in Chronological order.

[PassthePeace1]

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Because Scripture was written by the Apostoles before the official Cannonization took place. Scripture existed in the first Century, also if you bothered to read the 27 NT books you would realize that these books affirm each other.

Your argument is that from silence, if you're so knowledgable about ECF's please give me resources where it says that Scripture is not authoratative and tradition of men is.

My argument is not silence, and what makes you assume I haven't read the New Testament? And I never said they didn't affirm each other, the are the inspired Word of God, so why would they affirm each other.

Yes, the Scripture were written in the first century, but they were viewed as Scripture the first century Christians...they were eyewitness accounts(gospels) and letters(epistles). Here are some of the things that the NT tell us about Tradition.

2 Thes 2:15 "hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oarl statement or by the letter of ours."

2 Thes 3:6 "we instruct you, brothers, in the name of Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they recieved form us."

1 Cor. 11:2 "I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

St John tells us that not everything that Jesus said written down, so we rely on Sacred Tradition, that has been handed down thru succession from the Apostles who learned it from Jesus.

[Sevryn45]

My argument is not silence

It is because you're trying to prove that these traditions that the Apostoles passed down were something other then Scripture.

And thank you for misquoting scripture, I know you guys like to do that but I won't let you.

2 Thes 2:15 "hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oarl statement or by the letter of ours." You said

2 Thes 3:6 "we instruct you, brothers, in the name of Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they recieved form us."

1 Cor. 11:2 "I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.


Now let's examine these verses in context

13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=31#fen-NIV-29659b)] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=31#fen-NIV-29661c)] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=60&chapter=3&version=31#fen-NIV-29669a)] you received from us.

2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28587a)] just as I passed them on to you.

What you fail to mention that not all manuscripts agree, some say "Teachings" others say "traditions" but that's beside the point, why? Because we are told within Scripture by the Apostoles what these teachings are and where they can be found.

You quoted Paul and appealed to him saying Tradition but what you fail to prove what Teaching/Tradition is, you're trying to make a point that the so called hidden Tradition not thought in Scripture is validated by these passages but it's not.

WHY? Because only the teachings that were thought by the apostoles are.

8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1;8

Where is this so called hidden tradition that is not thought in scripture but is thought by your CHurch?

You are proving my point, these teachings/traditions are Scriptures.
You're appeal to Paul won't help you since you have to prove to me that the Apostoles gave hidden traditions that were not revealed in the writings they wrote.

[e=mv^2]

ACK...pink...hurts...

Wait till we have the forum for this guys... do not get a warning for not waiting 2 days.

[Sevryn45]

Wait till we have the forum for this guys... do not get a warning for not waiting 2 days.

I was not trying to start a debate, i just wanted to share the website I have been using to study up on our ECF's.