Who set the Protestant Canon?

[Bulldog]

Who was it? I believe I heard it was Josephus, but just to make sure....

[Liberius]

I believe it was set at a Jewish council, c. 90 AD, but I'm not sure. I think they wanted to take out all books that weren't written in Hebrew/Aramaic. It actually turned out that some books they took out, like Tobit, Sirach, and Judith, were written in Hebrew originally. Go figure.

[BBAS 64]

Who was it? I believe I heard it was Josephus, but just to make sure....
Good Day, Bulldog

Are you talking about the Cannon as a whole or the OT the is wide range of historical records with the cannon of scripture is derived from Josephus being one of those there are various Early church fathers who address this issue as well.

If you could be a little more specfic I could post the relevant information. The cannon of the OT as well as the NT is clear with in the scope of history.

Peace to u,

BBAS

[BBAS 64]

I believe it was set at a Jewish council, c. 90 AD, but I'm not sure. I think they wanted to take out all books that weren't written in Hebrew/Aramaic. It actually turned out that some books they took out, like Tobit, Sirach, and Judith, were written in Hebrew originally. Go figure.
Good Day, Liberius

Could you please provide a source, as to your understanding about this Jewish council as most historians in the Catholic , Jewish and Evagelical realm have serious questions as to the if this council even ever exisisted, never mind what they did or did not do if any thing at all.

Peace to u,

BBAS

[Bulldog]

Good Day, Bulldog

Are you talking about the Cannon as a whole or the OT the is wide range of historical records with the cannon of scripture is derived from Josephus being one of those there are various Early church fathers who address this issue as well.

I am speaking of the Canon as a whole.


Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zecariah
Malachi

[FreeinChrist]

Who was it? I believe I heard it was Josephus, but just to make sure....
Josephus was a jewish historian who wrote the history of the destruction of Jeruslaem by Titus in 70 AD. He was never a beleiver in Christ. He wrote the history from the Roman side, being rewarded by the Romans for his work.

[Bulldog]

Josephus was a jewish historian who wrote the history of the destruction of Jeruslaem by Titus in 70 AD. He was never a beleiver in Christ. He wrote the history from the Roman side, being rewarded by the Romans for his work.

Josephus was a believer in Christ-contrary to poular belief.




Jewish Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3


3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Bulldog


I think it is clear from history with reguards to the OT here are some early writings that address this issue as relates to the OT.

"I learned accurately the books of the Old Testament, and send them to thee as written below. Their names are as follows: Of Moses, five books: Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Jesus Nave, Judges, Ruth; of Kings, four books; of Chronicles, two; the Psalms of David, the Proverbs of Solomon, Wisdom also, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah; of the twelve prophets, one book; Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras. From which also I have made the extracts, dividing them into six books." (Melito of Sardis, cited in Eusebius, Church History, 4:26)





I also write, by way of remembrance, of matters with which you are acquainted, influenced by the need and advantage of the Church. In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand,' to reduce into order for themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to the fathers; it seemed good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon, and handed down, and accredited as Divine...There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews...there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit" (Athanasius, Festal Letter 39:2-4, 39:7)

There is a thread I started on the NT canon in P/R/E where some others have provided more information, I will find it and bump it for your edification.

Hope this helps,

Bill

[Bulldog]

Thanks Bill. Very helpful. :)

[Carlos Vigil]

I am speaking of the Canon as a whole.


Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel
2 Samuel
1 Kings
2 Kings
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra
Nehemiah
Esther
Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zecariah
Malachi


The CANON you posted is THE PALESTINIAN (Hebrew) CANON used by Hebrew speaking Jews in Palestine ...There was also THE ALEXANDRIAN (GREEK) CANON used by the Greek speaking Jews through out the Mediterranean, including Palestine.(both existed at the same time , during and after the time of Christ on earth.

The Palestinian Canon was kept by the Pharisees (who had Jesus crucified)

The Alexandrian canon was kept Alexandria by the Greek speaking Jews.
250-125 BC
When they began to determine The Bible, the Patristic Fathers stayed with the Alexandrian Canon , since it was more universal and contained inspired books. ( written outside of Palestine and outside of their specified time frame.)

the Alexandrian produced THE SEPTUAGINT, which was used by Jesus and the NewTestament writers, (who quote more than 300 times from THE SEPTUAGINT )

None of these are the Protestant Canon since The Protestant reformation had not yet occured.
When it did occur, the reformers went with The Palestinian Canon.

an added note; The first Protestants recorded in the NT; Jn. 6:41, 52, 66.

I pray this will shed some LIGHT on this issue.
Carlos

[PaladinValer]

Carlos, I find that last little unnecessary comment not only childish but for many "Protestants" utterly false.

Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Wesleyans all consider the Bread and Wine to have the Real Presence of Jesus' Body and Blood respectfully.

And mind you, there are those Anglicans like myself, particularly High Church Anglicans (again, like myself) who believe that the Deuterocanonical Books are completely athoritative in all matters of doctrine, faith, and salvation.

Lets end the ignorance on both sides, hmm?

[theologia crucis]

Josephus was a believer in Christ-contrary to poular belief.

Jewish Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3

3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.

No, Josephus never converted to Christianity. The passage you quote above was most likely "interpolated" or modified by Christians as early as Eusebius (~324 AD).

The more accurate translation is as follows:

At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.

HE 18:63

Josephus: The Essential Works, Paul L. Maier, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, 1994. Pages 269-270

Although the passage is so worded [the one Bulldog quoted] as early as Eusebius (C. A.D. 324), scholars have long suspected a Christian interpolation, since Josephus would not have believed Jesus to be the Messiah or in his ressurection and remained, as he did, a non-Christian Jew. In 1972, however, Professor Schlomo Pines of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem announced his discovery of an Arabic manuscript by the tenth-century Melkite historian Agapius, in which this Josephan passage is expressed in a manner appropriate to a Jew, and which corresponds so precisely to previous scholarly projections of what Josephus originally wrote that it is substituted in the text above. While the final sentence is not in Agapius, Pines justifiably concludes that it was in the original Josephan text.

Josephus: The Essential Works, Paul L. Maier, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, 1994. Page 283

[PaladinValer]

Bulldog, that's an urban legend and what you've quoted is a known forgery.

theologia crucis citations are excellent proof of the forgery; well done! :)

[Polycarp1]

Josephus was a believer in Christ-contrary to poular belief.




Jewish Antiquities, Book 18, chapter 3


3. (63) Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. (64) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross [2], those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day [3], as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day.
Just so you're aware of it, Bulldog, there are many scholars who claim that the paragraph you quoted from Josephus was a later insertion, a forgery by a pious Christian whose zeal for Christ exceeded his propriety. I take no stand on that claim, but it's emphatically worth noting.

[Carlos Vigil]

Carlos, I find that last little unnecessary comment not only childish but for many "Protestants" utterly false.

Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists, and Wesleyans all consider the Bread and Wine to have the Real Presence of Jesus' Body and Blood respectfully.

And mind you, there are those Anglicans like myself, particularly High Church Anglicans (again, like myself) who believe that the Deuterocanonical Books are completely athoritative in all matters of doctrine, faith, and salvation.

Lets end the ignorance on both sides, hmm?


Dear Paladin,
I appologize for irritating you , I should have qualified those people in
John 6:41,52, 66 as JEWISH protestors, (my bible says they protested)...I just could not resist the urge and "...by The Spirit put to death that deed of the flesh.".....SELF CONTROL is one of those Fruit of The Spirit that I need to bear more of.

a barren chili tree,
Carlos :o

[Rising_Suns]

Who set the Protestant Canon?

The Protestants, perhaps? :)

[Caoimhin]

Well, I was also going to say that the quote from Josephus is widely considered to be an edit, but it seems others have already done so.

I can't remember if anyone posted about the Apocrypha here, but I think this would be a good place to add two cents about that (I'm talking about the Protestant Apocrypha, which Catholics have included in their Canon).

The reason for those books to be excluded from the Protestant Canon is not solely because of Martin Luther. The debate had been going on since the publishing of the Vulgate (c. 400 a.d. I think). The reason they were debated on was because they were never in the Hebrew Canon, but were still widely read.

Up until the mid 1800's the Apocrypha was still in every Protestant Bible, but put at the end with a preface. It was finally taken out of the Protestant Bible for the sole reason that not many were reading those books anymore and it would cost less to just take the books out. I've read most of the Apocrypha as a Protestant and I find nothing wrong with any of the books. In fact, 2 Maccabees is becoming one of my favorite books.

(I apologize if any of this is somewhat innacurate (ie. the dates I put in this post) and sorry that I didn't get into too much detail, I didn't want to write an essay. I am getting my information from a Bible class at my college that I took this semester and my feeble brain is already forgetting the finer details). Also, if someone has already posted these things in another thread then sorry, I'm new.