Hebrews and the preterist view [Archive]

aggie03

25th June 2002, 01:22 PM

It is my understanding that the preterist view of things is that the world will never be destroyed because the second coming of Christ was in 70 AD in which He established an earthly kingdom.

If I've missed any major points, someone please let me know and I'll do some more reading on the subject - but for now I've found this and have a question about it:

"You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end."

Hebrews 1:10-12

From this, which is written in the Bible, which is the word of God and therefore the truth, that the world will come to an end.

Based on this scripture I don't see how one can believe that they preterist view is sound.

parousia70

25th June 2002, 02:10 PM

Hi Aggi,
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21), the conclusion that the "heaven and earth" that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the "heaven and earth" of operational Biblical Judiasm, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the "heavens and earth" AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.

Peace in Christ,
P70

Mandy

25th June 2002, 02:26 PM

I find it interesting that you believe the earth will endure forever, yet you believe that the Jews are no longer God's chosen.

Patmosman_sga

25th June 2002, 02:38 PM

The view that the earth will one day be destroyed is a narrow view held only within particular sects given over to apocalypticism. The writer of Hebrews, in the above cited passage, speaks of heaven and earth "perishing" and "becoming old" in the sense of their going through the necessary trial in order to be "rolled up" and "changed" so as to better reflect the glory and splendor of the eternal and never-chaning God who created them for that very purpose.

The resurrection is the hope not only of a redeemed humanity, but of a fully redeemed creation, as well. As Paul says, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God (Romans 8:20-21).

Preterists will say "the creation" refers only to the Church, and that is true from a covenental level. However, in order to refute the persistent attempts by dispensationalists who are eager for God to destroy the planet, it is important to also consider the cosmic dimensions of the hope of creation.

But more on that will require a separate thread.

parousia70

25th June 2002, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Mandy
I find it interesting that you believe the earth will endure forever, yet you believe that the Jews are no longer God's chosen.

The Bible teaches both to be true, so I believe it.

I'm glad you are so interested :)

jenlu

25th June 2002, 02:47 PM

Mandy,

Spiritual Jews...are still God's chosen people...how the shift from physical to spirtiual circumcision is detailed extensively in the N.T.

Patmosman_sga

25th June 2002, 02:56 PM

In dealing with dispensationalists who long for Israel after the flesh, are we not actually dealing with the modern-day equivalent of Judaizers?

npetreley

25th June 2002, 03:47 PM

npetreley

25th June 2002, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
In dealing with dispensationalists who long for Israel after the flesh, are we not actually dealing with the modern-day equivalent of Judaizers?

No, you're not. Judaizers are those who want to impose the law on Christians. That has nothing to do with God fulfilling His promise to the Jews.

Patmosman_sga

25th June 2002, 04:23 PM

The Judaizers wanted to impose the Old Covenant on Christians so they could become "Jews" in some outward, physical way. Dispensationalists want to reinstitute the Old Covenant so that those who are "Jews" outwardly and physically can once again be considered "God's chosen people."

Sounds like same song, different verse to me.

npetreley

25th June 2002, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Patmosman_sga
The Judaizers wanted to impose the Old Covenant on Christians so they could become "Jews" in some outward, physical way. Dispensationalists want to reinstitute the Old Covenant so that those who are "Jews" outwardly and physically can once again be considered "God's chosen people."

Sounds like same song, different verse to me.

First of all, I don't know why some of you keep bringing up the term "dispensationalist." Some of you have identified yourselves as preterists, but I have yet to see anyone claim to be a dispensationalist. Perhaps I just missed those messages. But does it occur to you that many of us are not dispensationalists?

Second of all, to deny that God will fulfill his specific promises to the Jews separately from the gentiles is to contradict scripture.

I've already quoted Romans 11, but here it is again. And there's no way to "spritualize" these references to Israel to mean the church, because Paul is contrasting the two in this whole chapter!

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

More important, Paul responds directly to your assertion with the following:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

So Israel is in a temporary state of blindness, but that won't last forever. Obviously, this is yet another unfulfilled prophecy, since the fullness of the gentiles has not yet come in.

Patmosman_sga

25th June 2002, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by npetreley

Second of all, to deny that God will fulfill his specific promises to the Jews separately from the gentiles is to contradict scripture.

You claim you are not a dispensationalist, but that is the standard dispensationalist mantra and it is that position which directly contradicts Scripture.

Ephes. 2:11-22 (ESV)
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— [12] remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. [13] But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. [14] For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [15] by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, [16] and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. [17] And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. [18] For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. [19] So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [20] built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, [21] in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. [22] In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Why do you continue to lust for Israel after the flesh? How much more clear does the Scripture need to be? No one, Jew or Gentile, will be accounted righteous based upon works of the law, but anyone, Jew or Gentile, can be accounted righteous if they put their faith in Jesus Christ! To suggest that God fulfills his promises to the Jews separately from the Gentiles is to suggest that the Jews, apart from the Gentiles, have an extra requirment to meet in order to be accounted righteous. Thus, you nullify the grace of God, just like the Judaizers.

gwyyn

26th June 2002, 01:16 AM

Just wondering does anyone here know anything about Judaism??

Brian45

29th June 2002, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by parousia70
Hi Aggi,
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21), the conclusion that the "heaven and earth" that Jesus & the apostles all taught was coming to an end was indeed the "heaven and earth" of operational Biblical Judiasm, is the only conclusion that rests in harmony with the rest of scripture.

Now, If you disagree, as I expect you will, please show me how God created the "heavens and earth" AFTER he parted the sea in Isaiah 51:16.

Peace in Christ,
P70

 

 

Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

Brian45

29th June 2002, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by gwyyn
Just wondering does anyone here know anything about Judaism??

 

Hi gwyyn .  Just check out the link and have fun  . By .

 

 

http://www.7metasearch.com/scripts/search/7metasearch/results.asp?q=judaism&submit1=Search

parousia70

29th June 2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Brian45

 

 

Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

 

Thanks for the link Brian, having spent a significant period of my life as an environmental activist, I am very familiar with that open letter.

While I agree that Climate change is inevitable, global population eruption continues to be problematic, the very real threat of astroid collision becoming ever more understood, etc, etc,,,,,....... I would maintain that nothing presented thus far convinces me that any of these things will destroy the earth, in fact here's an article that came out just yesterday documenting just how quick the earth indeed can rebound from catastrophy:

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/27/ancient.rainforest.ap/index.html

 

Kingdoms rise and fall, empires come and go, Civilizations have increased and declined, global catastrophies encompass and receed, and through it all, the earth endures .

Brian45

29th June 2002, 04:38 PM

Hi Parousia . You were an environmental activist ? on what planet ?

Just kidding Parousia . I did read your link but only speaks about the earth recovering after an asteroid collision .

I was hoping to make you aware of global warming , ozone depletion etc etc .

Ozarkpreterist

29th June 2002, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Brian45

 

 

Hi Parousia 70  .  I know you believe the world won't come to an end ,  but there is more evidence to say that it will rather than it won't  .  Please check out the link I have posted .  Thanks .

 

http://www.deoxy.org/sciwarn.htm

 

Brian45,

Most of the stuff at this link is very controversial. For example, on the global warming issue, they have 1500 signatures from scientists that say global warming is a problem. Try the link below. It has 19,200 signatures from scientists who say global warming is not a problem. Who do you believe? Does anybody really know?

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

Ozark

 

Brian45

29th June 2002, 05:04 PM

Hi ozark . I read your link but it's only a petition wanting people to sign it to agree that the earth is not being harmed . I think this is conected to the presidents refusal to sign the kyoto agreement .

parousia70

29th June 2002, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Brian45
Hi Parousia . You were an environmental activist ? on what planet ?

Planet earth, United States of America, State of Oregon, City of Eugene (Granola, pachouli, enviro-radical capital of the world) I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.

Just kidding Parousia . I did read your link but only speaks about the earth recovering after an asteroid collision .

I was hoping to make you aware of global warming , ozone depletion etc etc .

As stated, I'm well aware of those things, but have become unconvinced of their bility to "destroy the planet" for the planet, (from a strictly scientific standpoint) has withstood climate change again and again and again.

Planet earth will endure.

Ozarkpreterist

29th June 2002, 07:54 PM

Brian45,

If we look hard enough we can find people and statistics to back up just about any position on any issue. This is how most people approach the quest for truth. I am a political conservative. So, what did I do on the issue of global warming? I went out and found statistics and expert opinions that agreed with the conservative view on the matter. Did I seek out the raw data and spend hours trying to figure out what is really happening on the global warming issue? I must admit I did not. I think you probably did not either.

Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.

I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

Ozark

Auntie

29th June 2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by parousia70

Planet earth, United States of America, State of Oregon, City of Eugene (Granola, pachouli, enviro-radical capital of the world) I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.

Oh dear..... 

Planet earth will endure.

Only if Jesus returns to save it. ;)

parousia70

29th June 2002, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

[Planet Earth will endure]

Only if Jesus returns to save it. ;) [/B]

 

If Jesus returns?

A bit skeptical about your "futurism" are ya?

 ;)

parousia70

29th June 2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um

[I was a "Dirt First" tree hugging, Grateful Dead listening, Spotted Owl whale saver from way  back.]

Oh dear.....  

[/B]

 

Auntie, would you do me the honor of elaborating?

For instance, did you mean:

"Oh Dear" as in "His admitted background is a clear reason not to trust preterism"

Or

"Oh dear" as in "Praise God He turned from those things to the truth Of Jesus Christ"

???

Just curious

Auntie

29th June 2002, 09:14 PM

Why is it that preterists are so touchy??  And quick to come to erroneous conclusions??

I am a bit of an environmentalist myself, excluding the word "activist", although I am not a Grateful Dead fan.

My desire is not to save the beach mouse, but the beach.

Although I love wood-peckers, my desire is to save the natural forrest.

And if we don't save the oceans from being dumped with the waste of modern man, then the whale is the least of our problems.

You know, over the fathers day weekend, we took a trip down the Florida coastline, in the northern panhandle.  We found long stretches of landscape virtually untouched by modern man.  But, a lot of this land had "for sale" signs on it.  I wish some of you "tree huggers" would come to the state of Florida and attempt to save what little remains of God's creation.

parousia70

29th June 2002, 09:35 PM

Fair enough Aunti, except for the "preterists are touchy" part, I am in total agreement with your brand of "Environmentalism"  We are to be good stewards afterall.

I was just mentioning that I used to be more radical in my thinking on that issue before I came to Know Jesus.

Auntie

29th June 2002, 09:48 PM

hmmm......the quote button doesn't seem to be working.:scratch:

 parousia70,

I just had this mental image of you way up in the top of a tree, starving yourself while listening to Grateful Dead tunes on a cordless CD player.  Just a little humor.:)

hmmm.....you must have edited your post as I was clicking the quote button.:confused:

Well parousia, there's nothing wrong with being dedicated to what you believe in.  As a matter of fact, it is admirable.  I'm sure Jesus was acused of being radical.  You give yourself to what you hold dear, and that is a good thing.:)

Mike Beidler

29th June 2002, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.  I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

This is EXACTLY what I did.  I bought parallel commentaries on Revelation, the Millennium, the Rapture ... I bought books on all sides of the issue ... and after thoroughly referencing the Scriptures I wound up on a side I never in a million years would have expected myself to be on.  So much for tradition ...

mjwhite

30th June 2002, 12:42 AM

Dear all and parousia

It was said.
Well, it looks like we have a conflict that needs to be resolved, for elsewhere in the Bible, the word of God and therefore the truth, it is written:

Psalms 78:69
And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever."

So, you see the quandry, you have a scripture that says the earth will end, I have one that says it will last forever.

They can't both be right...hmmmm what to do...

Well, lets examine your verse. It is dealing with a "heaven & earth" as it relates to "Hebrews" correct?
Could there be a "Heaven and Earth" exclusive to Hebrews that God was going to destroy?

Lets see shall we?

This language sounds very similar to
Isiah 51:16
In describing what took place after God parted the sea and brought th Hebrew people out of Egypt;
51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'

Aggi, Notice how God describes the deliverance of the Hebrews out of Egypt, and the Giving of the Law as the planting of heavens and earth

The creation of Heavens and Earth in Isaiah 51:16 can not be referring to physical creation, for that had already ocourred long before God brought Israel out of Egypt.

God brought the Jews into the wilderness, formed them into a covenant nation, Firmly establishing them as His people.

God called that process the "Planting of Heaven and earth"

This is the very same planting of Heaven and earth the Writer of Hebrews is referring to when referancing it's destruction. The destruction of the "Heavens and earth" of old covenant Judiasm that God created after He parted the sea.

Well it seems to me that your premise is slightly flawed. I’m not necessarily denying your conclusion, but I think Is.:51:16 and your explanation of it falls short of establishing your point.

What Isaiah could be saying there in verse 51 doesn’t seem to mean AFTER the exodus of the Jews. The mention of the divided seas in verse 15 is a tool of the prophets to remind the Jews who they are dealing with. This God [as opposed to other silent non-gods] has actually done something mighty for His people. God, in my opinion, is simply explaining His purpose. This verse could be saying that God has foreknown His own, sealed them from all eternity [by putting His words in their mouth and covering them] before He created the world. His purpose in creation to establish His people.

Your explanation of the verse assumes more than mine does. You assume that Isaiah is talking about the destruction of a covenant world between God and the Hebrews. You make that assumption based not on evidence in the verse or in the immediate context, but it would seem based on previous held views.

That doesn’t negate your views of course, but this verse doesn’t establish them either.

Then it was said:
quote:
Originally posted by parousia70
Based on the fact that the scriptures teach again and again and again that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21)

Some of these verses don't seem to have anything to do with what you're talking about. I suspect you may have some typos here. But the OT ones I followed that do apply all use the same Hebrew word.

As to your premise…
Ps 104:5 this verse does not establish your premise, nor negate it. Is it possible the outer world will be destroyed but the earth as a planet survives?

Ps145: 13 this verse may have nothing to do with the earth. Remember Jesus said ‘My kingdom is not of this world’. Kingdom in this sense may mean the subjects of the kingdom, not necessarily a physical place.

Eccl. 1:4 the forever is this verse is general. It is not writing doctrine but simply speaking of the thousands of years the earth rotates. Again, the earth’s surface may be destroyed without the planet exploding.

Dan 4:3, 34 see note on Ps 145:13

Dan 7:14, 18, 27 same

Luke 1:33 same

Eph 3:21 not related to earth

It seems to be that instead of some spiritualized solution to the ‘dilemma’ we maybe should recognize that the planet may survive the destruction by fire.

Brian45

30th June 2002, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
Brian45,

If we look hard enough we can find people and statistics to back up just about any position on any issue. This is how most people approach the quest for truth. I am a political conservative. So, what did I do on the issue of global warming? I went out and found statistics and expert opinions that agreed with the conservative view on the matter. Did I seek out the raw data and spend hours trying to figure out what is really happening on the global warming issue? I must admit I did not. I think you probably did not either.

Most people approach eschatology in the same manner. We begin with our traditions and we look only for evidence to confirm our beliefs and to disprove other beliefs. Rarely do we find individuals who give all the major eschatological viewpoints equal footing and then explore each one with an honest desire for the truth.

I want to encourage all of us to be the exceptions. If you are really interested in eschatology, then study eschatology not just one narrow view of the end times. Read the best futurist, historist, idealist, and preterist works you can find. If you keep the view that you started with, then all will respect you. However, be warned. Most people who take this journey do not hold on to all of their traditions. So, if you love your tradition more than truth, then stay in your own little corner of the eschatological world, but don't expect those who love truth to respect you.

Ozark

 

I never asked for respect from you ,  and as for those who love truth   ,   the truth according to who  ? ,   YOU  ?  . 

 

If I new you were Gods right hand man in understanding biblical  truths ,  I would have sought you out earlier  .

parousia70

30th June 2002, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by mjwhite

It seems to be that instead of some spiritualized solution to the ‘dilemma’ we maybe should recognize that the planet may survive the destruction by fire.

 

<DT>Genesis 8:21a

<DD>And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake

<DD>
God will Never again curse the ground for the sake of man?

When God says Never again, does He mean Never again, or does He mean never again, until......??

 </DD>

Ozarkpreterist

30th June 2002, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Brian45

 

I never asked for respect from you ,  and as for those who love truth   ,   the truth according to who  ? ,   YOU  ?  . 

 

If I new you were Gods right hand man in understanding biblical  truths ,  I would have sought you out earlier  .

 

Brian45,

I was not speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking generally. Truth must be sought like fine gold, and we will ultimately find that it is a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I did not mean to imply that I know all there is to know about Him. I am sorry you read my words that way. There is only one person that cannot gain more truth, and that is the one who already thinks he has it all. I pray that I never become that man.

Where has your search for truth lead you personally? What do you believe about the The Lord Jesus Christ? The end times? I would be interested in what you have to say. I have never found another believer whom I could not learn from.

Ozark

Ozarkpreterist

30th June 2002, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Mike Beidler

This is EXACTLY what I did.  I bought parallel commentaries on Revelation, the Millennium, the Rapture ... I bought books on all sides of the issue ... and after thoroughly referencing the Scriptures I wound up on a side I never in a million years would have expected myself to be on.  So much for tradition ...

 

Hi Mike,

That is what I did too. I studied them all. That is why I am a preterist. I know what you mean. I never thought I would be one in a million years either.

Ozark

Brian45

1st July 2002, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist

 

Brian45,

I was not speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking generally. Truth must be sought like fine gold, and we will ultimately find that it is a Person-- the Person of Jesus Christ. I did not mean to imply that I know all there is to know about Him. I am sorry you read my words that way. There is only one person that cannot gain more truth, and that is the one who already thinks he has it all. I pray that I never become that man.

Where has your search for truth lead you personally? What do you believe about the The Lord Jesus Christ? The end times? I would be interested in what you have to say. I have never found another believer whom I could not learn from.

Ozark

 

Hi Ozark .   You already know my view  (  the end is comming  )  .

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral  ,  and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise  .  then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..  

It was then that I realised that there was no way you would ever agree with me or the scientists about the destrution of the earths ecosystem and where its heading .

If you were to agree that the world is slowly ending  ,  you would have to dump preterism  ,  and thats why you guys would rather stick your head under the pillow and pretend you don't see  or use mumbo jumbo to validate your point .

jenlu

1st July 2002, 07:37 AM

I don't think preterism hinges on the fact that the world will not end...but according to scientists has been faulty for the ages...I am a scientist myself so I'm not knocking them to bad, but we have and will be wrong about many things...this doesn't at the moment appear to be one of those instances, but it very well could turn out to be...it ain't ending any time soon, so give it some time, before you put all your faith in what they're saying right now...

parousia70

1st July 2002, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Brian45
 

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral  ,  and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise  .  then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..   

 

Hehehe.... mumbo jumbo......Thats funny.

The fact remains that science has failed to "prove", as you put it, that climate change, ozone depletion, population explosion, etc, will destroy the "EARTH".

From s strictly scientific perspective, the earth has been through cataclysm after cataclysm, climate change after climate change, pole shift after pole shift, species extinction after species extinction, and through it all guess what?

Earth still here!

Sure, modern civilization may be in for a rude awakening, but the track record is clear, Planet earth will endure.

 

Phoenix

1st July 2002, 01:43 PM

I was wondering where all the preterists have gone as i haven't been on here for a while. I thought ya'll had been sent to general apologetics. It's great at least they're letting you post here although i think to not have you in the Christians only forums is offensive at the least. Reading through a few of these threads i didn't see GW's name, is he still posting ?

jenlu

1st July 2002, 02:30 PM

Yeah, GW is still around...just keep an eye out...

parousia70

1st July 2002, 05:52 PM

GW's been busy, but he does check in on and off.

He's working on something special! we'll all be invited once He's ready!

 

Stay tuned..............

Manifestation1*AD70

2nd July 2002, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Brian45

 

Hi Ozark .   You already know my view  (  the end is comming  )  .

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral  ,  and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise  .  then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..  

It was then that I realised that there was no way you would ever agree with me or the scientists about the destrution of the earths ecosystem and where its heading .

If you were to agree that the world is slowly ending  ,  you would have to dump preterism  ,  and thats why you guys would rather stick your head under the pillow and pretend you don't see  or use mumbo jumbo to validate your point .

I would haft to disagree.  The futurist view is the only view which validates it's system of believe on the end of the world.  The Preterist view validates it's system of believe on the end covenants.   Like compleat salvation and the presence of God.

And I must add here, as a minister and teacher of God, I am always, always, amazes when I see a Christian (a child of God) express the desire to believe scientistsi and their ideas, over the absolute authority, of God's Word which is clearly see in scripture.

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV   One day those who place the words and ideas of men over the words of God will haft to answer to Him.  And that you can take to the bank.  

Ozarkpreterist

2nd July 2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by Brian45

 

Hi Ozark .   You already know my view  (  the end is comming  )  .

I began the debate by showing sientific evedence that the earth is on a downward spiral  ,  and neither you nor parousia gave any solid substantual evidence to prove otherwise  .  then you both began to use mumbo jumbo to validate your point ..  

It was then that I realised that there was no way you would ever agree with me or the scientists about the destrution of the earths ecosystem and where its heading .

If you were to agree that the world is slowly ending  ,  you would have to dump preterism  ,  and thats why you guys would rather stick your head under the pillow and pretend you don't see  or use mumbo jumbo to validate your point .

Brian45

I will have to agree with manifestation. World without end is not a major premise of Preterism, and moreover Preterism is not dependent upon this idea. You are definitely straining out a nat a swallowing a camel. What you have here is a case of science verses the Bible on this matter. You have sided with science, and the preterists have sided with the Bible. Science verses the Bible is not what eschatology concerns itself with. If you want to disprove Preterism, you are going to have to come after its major points.

You are going to have to deal with things like the time statements of the New Testament. You will have to explain why Jesus stood face to face with many people and said that they personally would see the Son of Man come in glory. You will have to explain why ALL of the apostles anticipated the return of Christ in their generation. You will have to explain why words like "soon" and "quickly" do not really mean soon and quickly but over 2000 years.

You will have to explain why Jesus said the kingdom of God was near. Yet, according to the futurists His present day church will not even get to experience it. You will have explain why Jesus said the kingdom of God is within us, it comes without observation, and it is not of this world. Yet, futurists are looking for a kingdom that is not within us, comes with observation, and is of this world.

I am afraid all the science in the world will not help you with these things. And they are only a few of the majors. Oh, and no mumbo jumbo please.

Ozark

Phoenix

3rd July 2002, 07:04 AM

Thanks Parousia and Jenlu, i'll be looking forward to it.

Manifestation1*AD70

4th July 2002, 11:34 AM

Subject: Noah and the traditions of men.

It is the year 2002 and Noah lives in the United States.

The Lord speaks to Noah and says: "In one year I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all is destroyed.

But I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living thing on the earth. Therefore, I am commanding you to build an Ark."

In a flash of lightning, God delivered the specifications for an Ark.

Fearful and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark. "Remember," said the Lord, "You must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

Exactly one year later, a fierce storm cloud covered the earth and all the seas of the earth went into a tumult. The Lord saw Noah sitting in his front yard weeping.

"Noah." He shouted, "Where is the Ark?" "Lord please forgive me!" cried Noah. "I did my best but there were big problems. First, I had to get a permit to believe the words you have said, from the leaders of Church, to see if it complies with what is written in their creeds and the traditional teaching of men before they would let me begin construction on your plans.

Then I got into a fight with the members of the Church because they said, to God a day or a year, is as a thousand years to the Lord. So they would not let me hire an engineering to firm and redraw the plans.

Then my Christian neighbor objected, claiming believing your words was heresies and violating zoning ordinances so they would not let me start building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission.

I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to protect the Spotted Owl. I finally convinced the U.S. Forest Service that I needed the wood to save the owls. However, the leader of Church won’t let me catch any owls because they said a year, or soon, does not mean a year, or soon, in their doctrines. So. no owls.

The Christian carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board. Now I have 16 newly saved carpenters who trust your words and not the ideas of men, on the Ark, but still no owls.

When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by the leaders of the Church groups because they said, at hand does not mean at hand in their doctrines. They objected to me taking any kind of animals aboard.

Just when I got the suit dismissed, the Church leaders notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on the proposed of believing your words about the flood. They didn't take very kindly to the idea that I did not, believe the ideas and traditional of men, over the Creator of the universe.

Then IRS has seized all my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes. I just got a notice from the State that I owe some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a recreational water craft.

Finally the Church got the courts to issue an injunction against further construction of the Ark, saying God does really mean this generation, but a generation in the far future. I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another 5 or 6 years!" Noah wailed.

The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began to calm. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up hopefully. "You mean you are going to destroy the earth, Lord?"

"No," said the Lord. "You mean you are not going to show the word you keep your words?" "No," said the Lord sadly. "The Church has already done that."

Hoonbaba

5th July 2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by parousia70
GW's been busy, but he does check in on and off.

He's working on something special! we'll all be invited once He's ready!

 

Stay tuned..............

I've already been invited!! :D

hehe anyway, yea he's a bit busy these days. ;)

-Jason

Hoonbaba

5th July 2002, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by aggie03
It is my understanding that the preterist view of things is that the world will never be destroyed because the second coming of Christ was in 70 AD in which He established an earthly kingdom.

If I've missed any major points, someone please let me know and I'll do some more reading on the subject - but for now I've found this and have a question about it:

"You Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end."

Hebrews 1:10-12

From this, which is written in the Bible, which is the word of God and therefore the truth, that the world will come to an end.

Based on this scripture I don't see how one can believe that they preterist view is sound.

Hi Aggie,

Preterists don't believe that Jesus came in 70 AD to set up an earthly kingdom.  Rather, preterists believe that Jesus set up a spiritual kingdom.

Here's why:

Jesus said his kingdom is 'not of this world' (John 18:36)

When Jesus was asked about the kingdom of God he said this:

"The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21)

And Paul says that 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God' (1 Cor 15:50)

God bless!

-Jason 