Is there really a devil?

[Flavius]

I have just about convinced myself that there is not an individual that is Ha Satan.

I believe that once there was a garden where the most beautiful creature was there within the flesh of Eve and Adam covered both of them in Spirit.

Man fell and the most beautiful creature was then cursed to slither on the ground.I can't help but think that the snake is my mind and its imaginations are all evil all the time cause thats how my mind works.

When Jesus told the desciple{get behind me Satan}-Was Satan in him alone?

Is Satan all seeing? can he be everywhere like G-d? I don't think so.

Well I'm still thinking about this subject.

[iitb]

Since this really doesn't have anything specifically to do with Israel prophecy and current events, I've moved it out into the main forum.

[Hix]

If there is no HaSatan there would be no humans. Satan is a necessity to complete Derech HaShem (The way of G-d). His plan involves the yetzer tov and the yetzer hara (the latter being satan) within us so that we may be tempted daily yet overcome the trials for him. Without this there would be no need for the world, indeed the world was created becuase HaShem wanted to do good but wanted us to work to earn that good.

[Sephania]

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[Flavius]

An interesting point.Why did Yeshuah say that he saw Satan falling like lightning at that particular time?

Isaiah 14-12. How art thou fallen from heaven Lucifer. I believe this verse was talking about Beltashar after the handwriting on the wall came.

Is this a correlation to what Yeshuah said?

I don't know, but why did Yeshuah say that at that time when those desciples came back?

Any comments?

[HoT-MetaL]

There is a theory that says there is no such thing as evil. Evil is simply the abscence of Good, or God. You cannot 'shine dark'. 'Dark' is always there. 'Dark' goes when you 'shine light'.

I half agree with the theory, my perception of hell is being cast out of God's prescence.

God Bless, metla.

[Toney]

Is Satan all seeing? can he be everywhere like G-d? I don't think so.



It is a very good question and one that I suspect a good many of us have thought about.

You are correct, Satan is neither omnipotent nor omnipresent but would have us believe that he is. A good deal of this is taught in the book of Job.

God bless you, Flavius.

Shalom

[blessed2]

In the book of Job, Satan appears to be a definate entity.
Ezekiel 28:13–15, 17. Thus the Bible represents Satan, prior to his fall, as being an angel of immense beauty, full of wisdom and enveloped in brightness. He was perfect. His covering was of magnificent precious stones. The prophet Isaiah describes him as “Lucifer, son of the morning!” Isaiah 14:12.
Seeing that Christ answered him with a passage of Scripture found in Deuteronomy 8:3, Satan himself decided to tempt our Lord through the use of Scripture too. Quoting Psalm 91:11–12, Satan requested of Christ after taking Him to the pinnacle of the temple, “If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.” Matthew 4:6.
Rev. 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Is Satan all seeing? can he be everywhere like G-d? I don't think so.
Let's examine angels.
Gen.
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
1 Corinthians 4
We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
1 Corinthians 11
10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.


Have you read the book of Enoch?
In it, it says that There are angels who are assigned to everything...one even is assigned to the hearing and delivery of our prayers....I believe it is Michael.
I would have to remember that they are spirit beings and they do watch us I think.
Just some things to consider I guess.

[brentsbaby612]

“Lucifer, son of the morning!” Isaiah 14:12.

I agree, HaSatan is definately an entity! I do also think that he can't see the future but he does watch us and see what's going on in our lives. How else would he be able to tempt us? He always seems to know just what to tempt us about too. I also think that human nature is inherently evil and that's another reason why we sin. It's not always necessarily HaSatan.

[Flavius]

[QUOTE=blessed2]In the book of Job, Satan appears to be a definate entity.
Ezekiel 28:13–15, 17. Thus the Bible represents Satan, prior to his fall, as being an angel of immense beauty, full of wisdom and enveloped in brightness. He was perfect. His covering was of magnificent precious stones. The prophet Isaiah describes him as “Lucifer, son of the morning!” Isaiah 14:12.
Seeing that Christ answered him with a passage of Scripture found in Deuteronomy 8:3, Satan himself decided to tempt our Lord through the use of Scripture too. Quoting Psalm 91:11–12, Satan requested of Christ after taking Him to the pinnacle of the temple, “If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.” Matthew 4:6.
Rev. 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.[QUOTE]


Very good answer,I have trouble with this subject because If something is true then it repeats itself like Satan falling from heaven.
You mentioned Isaiah as did I where Lucifer is cast to Earth,I could argure this being Beltashar the son of Nebarchadnezzra king of Babylon.

But this concept of Satan falling from heaven is talked about in several books.So we are left with the delima of figuring out when exactly was Satan cast out of Heaven? I believe Revelations also talks about it.We see in Zechariah Satan accusing Joshuah also.

So why did Yeshuah mention this when the desciples returned saying even the demons flee?

If we are made in G-d's image we are 3.

1st Peter 3,4-but let it be the hidden man of the heart,in that wich is not corruptable,even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit.

!st Peter here is talking about Adam.

Adam was the covering of Eve until the fall,then eve the flesh became the outside covering.

Yeshuah came as Eve in the flesh just like all men are born with temptation.

When Yeshuah rose,his hidden man was no longer hidden,he had the cloak of the new Adam and for the first time,A human stood on this Earth with a spirit covering that was no longer naked.

G-d laid Adam down in a sleep of death and took Eve the bride,he called them Adam.

I think we were meant to be the most beautiful creature Adam and Eve all balled up in one.

[Buccaneer]

Satan means enemy. It is a nonproper name. A label. Lucifer, a fallen angel is the one called the devil, satan, the old serpent, etc. Like the antichrist, there is more than one, but that is not to be confused with the MAIN one. There will be many antichrists before messiah returns, and one major antichrist (as seen in prophesy) and there are many enemies and one main enemy who is Lucifer, the satan/devil. Devils are simply demons or evil angels.

[Henaynei]

actually in scripture his "name" is HaSatan = means The Adversary - that is a proper just like The L-rd or the President or The Queen.

In Yov/Job *the* adversary is seen talking to HaShem .......

[Hix]

Actually Satan literally means Hinderer, and thats exactly what is job is to do, he hinders us from HaShem.

A man once came to a great Rabbi, very troubled. He said to the Rabbi, "Please pray to Hashem to take away my Evil Inclination. I do so many sins, and I want to stop sinning!"
The Rabbi answered, "Then what would be your purpose in this world, if you had no Evil Inclination? Your purpose in life is to overcome your personal Evil Inclination. That is what you were created for! Hashem has enough angels in heaven. He doesn't need one more. He created you human, so that you could improve yourself."

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Sephania]

sorry Hix .

[Hix]

Zayit by accepting that Satan is an evil angel seeking to do bad then you are taking on board several very difficult concepts, no? First of all, how would Satan get evil, evil cannot appear in the presence of the all Holy One. Instead in Isaiah G-d says HE created evil and good. Second, to have free will it is necessary to have the temptation, the yetzer hara inside, without which we could not have free will. How then does Satan have free will, does he have HIS own Satan? Thirdly what then is the Derech HaShem, the way of G-d? His plan that I am aware of involves the yetzer hara as a means of testing and trialing the world so that we may overcome and earn the reward he has for us in Olam HaBa. Fourthly, why doesnt G-d then destroy Satan now? Why did he allow him into his presence with the other angels in Job, could evil even exist in the presence of G-d?

As for the Ketuvarim Netzarim I dont believe it expounds on any messages that are alien to the Tanach. Yeshua provided another brilliant example of how we can be tempted by the yetzer hara yet if we rely on the word of G-d we can overcome it. Indeed the Talmud says we are actually higher than the angels becuase we can overcome the temptation of an angel. The Talmud also expounds in Baba Batra 15a that it is becuase of Satan that G-d is able to give a person the opportunity to strengthen their loyalty and connection to G-d.

There is no doubt Satan is an angel, just IMHO he has a dirty job. G-d doesnt create defects.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Sephania]

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[Hix]

Lucifer is a human king, read it in context and you will see this:

1. For the Lord shall have mercy on Jacob and again choose Israel, and He shall place them on their soil, and the strangers shall accompany them and join the House of Jacob. 2. And peoples shall take them and bring them to their place, and the House of Israel shall inherit them on the soil of the Lord, for slaves and maidservants, and they shall be captors to their captors and rule over those who dominate over them. 3. And it shall come to pass on the day the Lord allows you to rest from your sorrow and from your shuddering, and from the hard work that you were made to serve. 4. And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one! 5. The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the rod of the rulers. 6. Who would smite peoples with wrath, incessant blows, ruling nations with anger, pursued without relenting. 7. 'All the land rested, became tranquil,' they opened [their mouth] in song. 8. Box trees, too, rejoiced at you, the cedars of the Lebanon; 'Since you were laid low, the cutter will not come upon us.' 9. Gehinnom from beneath quaked for you, toward your arrival; it aroused for you the giants, all the chiefs of the earth; it caused all the kings of the nations to rise from their thrones. 10. All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?' 11. Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you. 12. How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. 13. And you said to yourself, 'To the heavens will I ascend, above God's stars will I raise my throne, and I will sit on the mount of the assembly, in the farthest end of the north. 14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will liken myself to the Most High.' 15. But into the nether world shall you be brought down, to the bottom of the pit. 16. Those who see you shall look at you; shall gaze earnestly at you, 'Is this the man who caused the earth to quake, who wrought havoc among the kingdoms? 17. Who made the land like a desert, and his cities he demolished; for his prisoners he did not open the house. 18. All kings of nations, all of them, lay in honor, each in his house. 19. But you were cast from your grave like a discarded sapling, [in] the garb of the slain, of those pierced by the sword, who descend to the stones of the pit, like a trampled corpse. 20. You shall not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named forever. 21. Prepare a slaughter for his sons because of the iniquity of their forefathers, lest they rise and inherit the land, and fill the surface of the earth with enemies." 22. "And I will rise against them," says the Lord of Hosts, "and I will cut off from Babylon a name and a remnant, a son and a grandson," says the Lord. 23. "And I will make it for a heritage of hedgehogs and pools of water, and I shall sweep it away with a broom of destruction," says the Lord of Hosts. 24. The Lord of Hosts swore saying, if not as I thought, so it was, and as I planned, so it shall remain. 25. To break Assyria in My land, and on My mountains will I trample him, and his yoke shall be removed from upon them, and his burden shall be removed from upon his shoulder. 26. This is the plan that is planned over the entire land, and this is the outstretched hand over all the nations. 27. For the Lord of Hosts planned, and who will frustrate [it]? And it is His hand that is outstretched, and who will return it? 28. In the year of King Ahaz' death, was this harsh prophecy. 29. Rejoice not, Philistia, all of you, that the rod that smote you has been broken, for, from the root of a snake shall emanate a venomous serpent, and his offspring is a fiery flying serpent. 30. And the firstborn of the poor shall graze, and the paupers shall lie in safety, and I will put your root to death through hunger, and he shall slay your remnant. 31. Howl [for the] gate, cry out [for the city]; Philistia has melted, all of you, for from the North smoke has come, and there is no straggler in his ranks. 32. Now what shall the messenger of a nation announce? That the Lord has founded Zion, and therein shall the poor of His people shelter themselves.

I see no reason from reading this in context to say that it is Satan, and indeed even christian commentators now admit it was most likely a human king who thought of himself as G-d.

I understand Yeshua was tempted becuase he was human, all humans are born with the evil inclination so it is only right that Yeshua too would be tempted by the Devil. It is put in there to serve as a great lesson that it can be overcome with reliance on G-ds holy word.

As I can see achi, you have no answered my queries regarding how it is impossible that Satan should be evil. As I said G-d says in Isaiah that HE created evil, how and why would G-d Almighty create an angel knowing that it would rebell? How could evil exist in the presence of Holyness? It is like trying to be dry in a lake, Satan could not stop being holy even if he wanted to. There are far too many theological problems with the evil angel complex and since I try to rely more on knowlege as per the commandment in Jeremiah I just cant see an evil angel being a possibility. I mean, why would G-d not destroy him now if he didnt have a purpose for him? :scratch:

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Toney]

Shalom,

I have never read adaquate theodicy. Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) came close, IMO.

After G-d created the first polarity -- darkness and light -- at the very beginning, the fall of Lucifer quickly followed. He was G-d's first creature, an angel of light, which is what his name means. Angels are created with free will. They may elect to serve, or not to serve.

In some quark of a cosmic moment, Lucifer excercised his free will and chose not to serve G-d. This was a necessary precedent for any 'conception' of free will to be created and therefore brought into consciousness, and thus a second polarity, humility and arrogance, was created. The script having been written in Heaven was then performed on Earth by Adam and Eve a few days later.

G-d's great gift to us is our free will; we are not hard-wired like brute animals, although we can (and often do) behave worse than beasts. However, we are created defective, i.e. imperfect, or inclined toward sin or disobedience (arrogance) to G-d. Torah teaches that we are to overcome those inclinations and how to do it.

So G-d chose the Jews to write us an owner's manual and then redeemed us through a perfect sin offering.

And we still don't get it.

As the Book of Tobit teaches, and is a tenet of angelology, angels may take human form. Of course, G-d must allow it. There is no doubt in my mind that the tempter of Yeshua was the Devil Incarnate.