Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

[discernomatic]

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

[New_Wineskin]

I don't consider that it has been a traumatic experience for me .

[Hisrosebud]

Yes,

We left our church after 7 years of extreme faithfullness. During the last year or so we started seeing changes in the church and started asking questions...


We are now recovering from what we call "spiritual abuse". We have come to see that we were in a very abusive, controlling church. The wounds are very deep. We have tried to visit other churches... one we even attending for a while and there was some interesting things that happened there.


So for now, we are home, resting, spending time with my immediate family and making up for some lost time.


We are not sure if we even believe in "church" anymore. A lot of church stuff seems to contradict the bible. If I heard anyone print what I just said a few years ago I would have thought them a heretic.

I am tired now, but I will most more details about what we endured.

Jane

[loribee59]

I have~ I've experienced some of that with my old church years ago...pretty much of the blame was on the pastors (wife and husband)

I'm between churches, but lately, everywhere I turn, the focus is on how many people they can gather and how much tithes they can get out of people attending. blech.

And this is what I don't get-- and I think it had to do with power and control:

why build a bigger building, when a home church would just do? the problem is with the home church(es) and the loss of control over them...much more easier to have everyone in the same building. Smaller home groups are fine, so long they follow the church's guidelines. How nice of them to be in control. :sick:

I'm still looking for a home church, and I'm a bit shy to even start one! :(

[watchman7]

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

Actually it was a traumatic experience that brought my family out of the institutional "church". We have grown to see it as a blessing with many unique opportunities for spiritual growth in Christ.

Remember, Paul's conversion was traumatic to him.

[Buttermilk]

Not a traumatic experience, but politics :(

It wasn't a sudden decision, but something I have been pondering over for months if not years.

Here's the details if anyone is interested (http://www.christianforums.com/t1423930-i-am-angry-with-my-church.html)

[discernomatic]

Yes,

We left our church after 7 years of extreme faithfullness. During the last year or so we started seeing changes in the church and started asking questions...


We are now recovering from what we call "spiritual abuse". We have come to see that we were in a very abusive, controlling church. The wounds are very deep. We have tried to visit other churches... one we even attending for a while and there was some interesting things that happened there.


So for now, we are home, resting, spending time with my immediate family and making up for some lost time.


We are not sure if we even believe in "church" anymore. A lot of church stuff seems to contradict the bible. If I heard anyone print what I just said a few years ago I would have thought them a heretic.

I am tired now, but I will most more details about what we endured.

Jane
Thank you Jane for your input. When you have time, your testimony could be a help to others if you could post it. If it is not appropriate here, don't hesitate in sending it to me directly.

Love, encouragement and comfort in Jesus Christ,

discernomatic

[discernomatic]

Thank you all for your input and I sincerely hope that you find encouragement and comfort. Watchman7 mentioned that his family has grown in Christ because of it. Let us encourage one another. That is what the body of Christ is for. Even if we are not always together with others, we are united in Him. :groupray: Jesus never lets us alone. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?......neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:33,39. I encourage you to read that whole piece.

Go ahead and keep posting on this thread! The more the merrier!

Love and encouragement to all,

discernomatic

[DanaM]

Yes, I got Saved and realized how far off the church was from THE CHURCH.

[Hisrosebud]

After we left our church of over 7 years, we searched for another church. My husband and I were afraid of being "lone rangers". We were taught that if you weren't "plugged in" to a body (they meant, their church) that it was only a matter of time before you became "shipwrecked"--that is you would be decieved by Satan and walk away from your faith and make a disaster of your "walk". (hmmm, bible tells me that Jesus is the author, begininer and finisher of our faith).

So we visited another church. It was more insane. To make a long story short, the Pastor was "told by God" to return home to California. (we live in Connecticut) He put out an "ad" for other pastors in training for this denomination. Another couple from the south answered this ad. The current pastor announced to the church (while introducing them for the first time) that they were going to return to California after they sold their house. They announced that this new couple was sent to us by God to now take this church.

After only a few months, maybe 3; the new pastor and his wife went behind the current pastors' back to their old leadership--long story short--they manipulated the current pastor out of his position. So we are in this church, maybe for only a month and watch the current pastor tell his congregation that he was asked to step down by leadership of the denomination. The church is in tears, splits in front of our very eyes. Most go with the old pastor--2 or 3 families go with the new. (one family actually attended bible studies with both churches).

The old pastor is now "told by God" that he is not to go to California. That in fact God told him to do all of this to "expose the new pastor and his wife" for their evil intent to fleece God's people.

However, the denomination kept the new pastor and his wife having apparently been trying to "oust" this old pastor for a while.

The new pastor and his wife were extremely sexist and racist. They did not take the time to get to know people from around this area. They built a new group of people up and have been leading this church since September of this year.

A couple that we know who stayed with him just told me this week that last Sunday, the new pastor and his wife have been "told by God" to go to Washinton State. They are closing down the church.

So basically this new pastor and his wife were called by God to come to our state to split a church body???? and then leave a group of people without a "home"???

the old pastor is calling all those people to come join his church, now not affiliated with any denomination.

AND OH YEAH, we went with the old pastor. He lost his job in November. We were told that he was a cabinet maker. We hired him to do our kitchen. He gave us an estimate, was going to be done before christmas, we bought the supplies and paid him most of his money. He has left the job undone, refuses to return our calls and we are stuck. With out money to hire someone else and with cabinets all open, counter half in stalled.....


TRAUMATIC? This was after we left our abusive church.

We bought a "fixer upper" because we believe that we heard from God a long time ago to build a dream that we call Hannah's Haven. It will be a home for foster/adoptive children with special needs. Our home has 6 bedrooms and land around it. We are doing most of the work ourselves, money is tight. We were hoping to be licensed by the fall--now with the kitchen; I guess it is in "God's Hands"--what ever that means, I don't know anymore.

I am tired of people doing things that are dysfunctional, hurtful, spiteful all in His name. I am becoming to believe that this very thing; this division amonst His people and claiming "He said" is the very abomination at the alter that is spoke of....


and I am doubting that I ever heard from God to build Hannah's Haven....seems like a lot of people think that they "hear from God". Maybe we just all need a little prozac.

This is the fruit in my life of this experience that happened after we left the spiritually abusive church.

Love,

Jane

[discernomatic]

Wow! I'm sorry about the whole trouble. I was involved in a church split up a long time ago and saw more about how the Holy Spirit does not work than about how he works. I'm glad for you, though that through this you were able to find a ministry opportunity to show God's love and mercy to others. Thanks for sharing your story.

Love,

discernomatic

[newday]

We (my spouse and I ) decided after 10 years of service to God at our local church, to not particpate in the "new program."
We wanted to focus on our family. The new program would have caused us to have 6 meetings a week if everyone in our home participated.
I was told that if I did not particpate I was no longer able to serve in the department I was currently in.
I told them okay.
We decided that we no longer want to fellowship at a ministry that was so "heavy handed." We recognize that our very lives are in the hands of God. Those relationships that we are suppose to have will remain, those that don't, won't.
We are free to fulfill the purpose God has for our lives. We will visit other churches and we are interested in Home Church settings also.
Because of the Cross,
Newday

[discernomatic]

The new program would have caused us to have 6 meetings a week if everyone in our home participated.
I was told that if I did not particpate I was no longer able to serve in the department I was currently in.
I told them okay.
We decided that we no longer want to fellowship at a ministry that was so "heavy handed." We recognize that our very lives are in the hands of God. Those relationships that we are suppose to have will remain, those that don't, won't.
Newday

Goodness! Six meetings a week were the requirement? That certainly does not sound biblical. Even if we look at examples of the new testament churches, there is nothing there saying that we must meet even once a week much less six times. That sounds more like control than like good Christian living. Someone I know had to give up teaching bible classes at their local church because they disagreed with the new program and eventually had to find another church to attend. The church they go to now is partly made up of former members from the surrounding churches starting new programs. In their particular case it was Rick Warren's program. He wrote Purpose Driven Church and Purpose Driven Life. You can find an account of their situation in an article on my website entitled, "Is Church Membership Really Necessary?" Just go to my profile and click on the link.

Could you mention the name of the new program or send it to me in a PM?

I sincerely pray that you find another community that holds the love and mercy of God and the family higher than church regulations and that God gives you the strength to overcome all your troubles. :prayer:

discernomatic

[newday]

The name of the program is Government of 12. To my understanding this is how it works:
A member goes to two post-encounter meetings. Then after that a member goes on an "encounter." This is a weekend trip that the member has to pay for. After that the member is required to go to 10 post-encounter meetings. After those are done the member has to pay to go to the "School of Leaders." I believe this is a 30 week program that consists of homework, exams, etc.
During the "School of Leaders," the member is required to participate in a home cell group once a week.
After a while (I'm not sure about the length of time or if it is at the leader's discretion), the member is required to hold a home cell group.
This would mean for my family since there are 3 of us that each of us would be required to attend a home cell group once a week as well as hold one in our home.
I'm not saying it is a "bad" program. It may actually benefit somebody.
But as for my home and family, it would not work.
Because of the Cross,
Newday

[Bevlina]

Yes, a traumatic experience caused me to leave the Churches. I won't go into detail because I don't want to remember. And, I will never go back.

[discernomatic]

The name of the program is Government of 12.
I'm not saying it is a "bad" program. It may actually benefit somebody.
But as for my home and family, it would not work.

Have already heard something about the G12. Tricia Tillin of Banner Ministries has a testimony on her site of someone who had a bad experience with it. She is of the opinion that it cannot benefit anyone, and from what I have heard so far, I think she is right. Some people need counseling after leaving the G12 program because it uses some methods that cults do to manipulate people and has some of the same effects on the psyche as a cult environment can have.

[discernomatic]

And, I will never go back.
That's too bad. Do you at least have a few Christian friends you can meet with?

[New_Wineskin]

The name of the program is Government of 12. To my understanding this is how it works:
A member goes to two post-encounter meetings. Then after that a member goes on an "encounter." This is a weekend trip that the member has to pay for. After that the member is required to go to 10 post-encounter meetings. After those are done the member has to pay to go to the "School of Leaders." I believe this is a 30 week program that consists of homework, exams, etc.
During the "School of Leaders," the member is required to participate in a home cell group once a week.
After a while (I'm not sure about the length of time or if it is at the leader's discretion), the member is required to hold a home cell group.
This would mean for my family since there are 3 of us that each of us would be required to attend a home cell group once a week as well as hold one in our home.
I'm not saying it is a "bad" program. It may actually benefit somebody.
But as for my home and family, it would not work.
Because of the Cross,
Newday Looks like a pyramid scheme with the intial people adding the scemes of cults . Mix well and this is what it looks like .

[Bevlina]

That's too bad. Do you at least have a few Christian friends you can meet with?
Yes disc! I have a Home Church where we meet.It's very innocent and sweet. Possibly more like the Original Christians. We share everything.

[newday]

Have already heard something about the G12. Tricia Tillin of Banner Ministries has a testimony on her site of someone who had a bad experience with it. She is of the opinion that it cannot benefit anyone, and from what I have heard so far, I think she is right. Some people need counseling after leaving the G12 program because it uses some methods that cults do to manipulate people and has some of the same effects on the psyche as a cult environment can have.

Could you give me the name of the site. I would be interested in reading the information. Even though we have left that particular ministry, I still have people there that I care about.
Thanks,
Newday

[Nflite]

I found the links for ya. :)

The Transforming Church: G12 Testimony
Part One www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony.htm
Part Two www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony2.htm

[Hisrosebud]

Reading all this stuff is heartwrenching to me. We didn't have the Government 12 but we had layers of leadership; homegroups; discipling---it was almost identicle.

We really need to pray for the condition of the bride- she has been raped, robbed, lied to and left to fend for herself. It's got to grieve the Lord.

Jane

[newday]

Nflite,

Thank you so much for the sites. It is amazing to read some of the exact things that had happened to me.
I was one of the people that refused to go into this system. I was told I had to be "sat down" and I could not serve in that local ministry until I participated. I left.
I THANK GOD for protecting me and my family!
Thanks Again,
Because of the Cross
Newday

[NewSong]

I am totally without a homechurch. I was forced out of mine when the pastor decided to dispose of me just last week. I am raw, hurting and have no idea where or what God wants to do with me.

I am afraid to trust again and feel that I cannot do so. I can't seem to hear God's direction over the hurt and trauma that has brought to the point I am without a church.

God Bless you.
NewSong

[newday]

NewSong,

Even when man has rejected you, God has not.
I didn't like the way things came about in my situation BUT IT HAS worked out for my good.
Keep praying, keep reading the Word of God. Our Father said that He would never leave you nor forsake you.
HE WILL show you your next step.
I'm praying for you.
Because of the Cross,
Newday

[NewSong]

NewSong,

Even when man has rejected you, God has not.
I didn't like the way things came about in my situation BUT IT HAS worked out for my good.
Keep praying, keep reading the Word of God. Our Father said that He would never leave you nor forsake you.
HE WILL show you your next step.
I'm praying for you.
Because of the Cross,
Newday

Thank you Newday... I was fortunate enough to be a PK and yes you are right that reading the word of God and knowing that HE will never leave me nor forsake me is exactly what is important. Thank you NewDay. Thank you for your prayers. They mean so much to me. :)

[discernomatic]

I found the links for ya. :)

The Transforming Church: G12 Testimony
Part One www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony.htm (http://www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony.htm)
Part Two www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony2.htm (http://www.banner.org.uk/apostasy/G12testimony2.htm)
Thanks for getting to that Nflite. The kids got out of school last week and I hardly had time to stop by.

[discernomatic]

NewSong,

Sorry to hear what happened. I've been rejected by other Christians too. I'll pray for you too. Hisrosebud knows of a forum that may be helpful to you. Ask her for the address.

discernomatic

[Hisrosebud]

For anyone who needs it, please PM me, I have taken the address down for now.


please use it with love, the people are in all levels of healing. There are a few recovery groups there. I find myself mostly on the spiritual abuse forum. Jeff Vanvonderm coined the phrase spiritual abuse and there is much to read on his site.

The site is not like this one. Not everyone still considers themselves a christian (most do) but all have been hurt like many of you describe here. It is a site for people to vent, discuss, rage, cry, question and share with each other their experiences from spiritual abuse. Some spiritual abuse is very subtle some isn't so subtle. I guess it is run something like a 12-step program. You take what you need, share what you want. . . .

read around the site, and remember to tell me "hi" if you join.....

I am "jane" there too....

discernment- i am trusting you not to exploit them.....love, Jane

[Hisrosebud]

Newsong,

I don't know why you were just kicked out of a church but I know it was wrong. I know that the Lord will never leave nor forsake you. He found Saul, he can find you no matter where you are.

If you ever want to talk, feel free to PM me and I'll give you my email address.

It sounds like you know who you are in Christ but that doesn't mean there are no battle wounds. I remember being told that some of the attacks that I was getting in my first church was just part of the "warfare" of being christian. Funny thing. When I read the bible, I read that Jesus stopped the people from stoning a whore-- how much more would he protect us, his bride against assaults like I have seen? And the people throwing todays stones call themselves "HIS"..... interesting. Talk about a lion in sheeps clothing. Talk about incredible levels of cunning deception. Talk about subtle mind control and brain washing....all because people are desparate to please our Lord.

anyhow, please feel free to visit the site...or pm me.

Love,
Jane

[NewSong]

Thank you all of you for your kind support. I can't say enough thank you's.



God Bless you and thanks so much for caring.



NewSong

[Bevlina]

I am totally without a homechurch. I was forced out of mine when the pastor decided to dispose of me just last week. I am raw, hurting and have no idea where or what God wants to do with me.

I am afraid to trust again and feel that I cannot do so. I can't seem to hear God's direction over the hurt and trauma that has brought to the point I am without a church.

God Bless you.
NewSong
NewSong, may I ask why the pastor did that to you? What a horrible thing to do! Sorry ... but when I read your post ... it left me speechless!

[Hisrosebud]

Honestly, does it matter?
We weren't kicked out of our church. After 9 months of agonizing trauma because we left; my husband asked for the tithes of just this year back. It was only $400. Compared to the thousands over the years....he believed that they were lying about where the money had been spent. He felt we gave it under misrepresentation.

Wanna know what happened (and this is AFTER all the abuse)???

The deacon, head of administration, (his childhood friend for over 20 years that brought him to the Lord) told him he was nuts! THat my he could now see my husband's heart and how evil it was (the bible says only GOD Knows the condition of a man's heart BTW). He screamed and hollered at him; told him that the only reason he was asking for it was to HURT THE PASTOR. HOW WOULD $400. hurt a man who has two children in top private schools, wears several different pair of $150-$200 shoes- goes on a month vacation to North Carolina every summer?????

We have been banned from the church property from that request.

All my husband did was ask for the money back.

There is never a good reason for a Pastor to kick someone out of the church. Most christians are against the death penalty because they believe that as long as there is breathe in someone, they can still be saved...

Just my opinion,

Jane

[discernomatic]

The deacon, head of administration, (his childhood friend for over 20 years that brought him to the Lord) told him he was nuts! THat my he could now see my husband's heart and how evil it was (the bible says only GOD Knows the condition of a man's heart BTW). We have been banned from the church property from that request.

All my husband did was ask for the money back.

There is never a good reason for a Pastor to kick someone out of the church. Most christians are against the death penalty because they believe that as long as there is breathe in someone, they can still be saved...
It is terrible when your own friends even do this to you in the name of the Lord. :sigh: It seems that they were equating themselves and the church larder too much with God. At the church I got rejected by about seven months ago, I think the pastor also equated himself too much with God. Humility is supposed to be a major virtue for a pastor, perhaps even moreso than for the rest of the congregation.

Years ago, I and my parents went to a church (split off a Baptist church-we went with the pastor) that invested the money collected for a new building without informing the congregation, and then lost the money, including what we had given. We never got it back either after we left the church because of that incident. After that, it took years for my father to trust anyone associated with a church again. He just read his bible at home and fellowshipped with a few Christian friends when there was an opportunity. My mother kept looking for a church, and I was off to the uni soon anyway and found other church events to attend. Sometimes we associate the pastor and elders too much with God, even though they still can act all too human. This can make the hurt caused by such events even deeper.

Some that are friends of my family got kicked out of an AoG church years ago for questioning the new program that the pastor wanted to implement. They were the bible teachers! They were banned from the church building, some were waiting at the door to turn them back and those that associated with them.

To everyone,

We have to realize that God does not do these things, but men are capable of it. Don't think that God has rejected you, he never would.

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written, 'For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.' (Psalm 44:22) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:35-39. :clap:

How's that for encouragement? That is my favorite passage in Scripture. If things get tough I like to remember that one.

Also, "Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. and let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another - and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Hebrews 10:23-25.

discernomatic

[New_Wineskin]

Honestly, does it matter?
We weren't kicked out of our church. After 9 months of agonizing trauma because we left; my husband asked for the tithes of just this year back. It was only $400. Compared to the thousands over the years....he believed that they were lying about where the money had been spent. He felt we gave it under misrepresentation.

Wanna know what happened (and this is AFTER all the abuse)???

The deacon, head of administration, (his childhood friend for over 20 years that brought him to the Lord) told him he was nuts! THat my he could now see my husband's heart and how evil it was (the bible says only GOD Knows the condition of a man's heart BTW). He screamed and hollered at him; told him that the only reason he was asking for it was to HURT THE PASTOR. HOW WOULD $400. hurt a man who has two children in top private schools, wears several different pair of $150-$200 shoes- goes on a month vacation to North Carolina every summer?????

We have been banned from the church property from that request.

All my husband did was ask for the money back.

There is never a good reason for a Pastor to kick someone out of the church. Most christians are against the death penalty because they believe that as long as there is breathe in someone, they can still be saved...

Just my opinion,

Jane

If the money is not returned and your family contributed to a building fund , you could always take it to the courts . At the least , the process could find out what happened to the money and alert the community as to the tactics of the group . The precedent could also encourage others to bring cultish groups a wakup call that there are avenues to keep them accountable .

[Hisrosebud]

Well, it went to the general tithe fund, not the building fund. My husband and I discussed it.

I spoke to that friend; actually he called on me to "tell on my husband". He honestly believed that my husband was trying to take the money back from God. He said, you can't take money back from God.

My husband was more polite. During the conversation that he had with him, he felt like God only gave him a small window of space. He was to ask politely and that's it.

I am a little more angry--and vocal about that anger these days. When this man called to "tell on my husband"-- he actually thought I would go against my husband>

He told me that there was never a precedent before set-- that in all his years as a treasureer (Over 10 in the Aog and then over 15 in our church) NO ONE HAS EVER ASKED FOR GOD's MONEY BACK!

I told him, actually, my husband found a federal case where a family got their money back because they gave under false leadings....

He told me, go ahead and sue! (knowing how financially well off we are not) that the money went to church service and they could prove it. They do so many things for the community etc......


My husband and I prayed about it. We really did not feel released to fight for only $400. To go back years and get the thousands-- well, we would have to pay an attorney and we are using all of our funds to build "Hannah's Haven" and now to buy supplies to help my special needs 5 year old. We didn't feel God's release or grace to do that. We asked. They said no. We give it to the Lord.

I wrote about it manly because of the "not being allowed on church property because of it".

I don't believe non-profit churches should be able to do that. I don't believe it legally or morally. Trust me, we have no intentions of going there soon. We went once after we left for a child's birthday party that we were invited to and felt like we needed a shower after words. We felt condemmned, judged and didn't like how others who still belong to the church, were being treated in the name of love.

What do you think? Does a pastor have a right to kick you out of church?

I guess if his live was at stake, like you threatened to harm him, I can understand. Seems to me most people get kicked out for not compliying with the norms of that church group--for asking questions or wanting to be a little bit different. ( I don't mean in drastic cases; I mean maybe a woman wants to wear dress pants to church).

When Jesus was here- he walked amongst the outcasts not the religious experts of his day. He condemned the religious experts. Now I am not implying that all religious leaders are not following the heart of God--- but if we look to the way Jesus walked and talked and tried to be a little bit more like him--well, we would probably all be in Glory by then, right?

Just rambling. This is an emotional, heartwrenching subject for me these days. I am just trying to find my feet and get up and walk again- with the knowledge of who I am in Christ.

Jane

[New_Wineskin]

Ok . I thought that I would ask .

Every once in a while , I think about looking into the local groups . But , stories such as this bring me back to reality . I wouldn't "join" a group in the first place . So , it wouldn't do much harm . I also give in a way that doesn't have enough overhead to have the gift wasted . So , I wouldn't be giving to the group . Money , money , money ... they want it , they demand it , they take it ... and , you better do what those that you pay say to do . Interesting how hirelings in these groups call the shots instead of those that pay them .

[Hisrosebud]

Honestly, thanks for asking.

I hope I didn't sound antagonized...anything that came across in my letter that was stressful isn't towards anyone here.

It is towards all the ****, pain, and horrible things that I have been seeing done "in the name of Jesus"

In particular towards the pain that we recently went through, my husband and I are just now starting to recover.

We feel that recovering from spiritual abuse is more traumatizing than anything that we have ever experienced. It creeps into every crevice of your life. Trying to return to any "normal" church is difficult because even if they are healthy-- the very "christianeze" and scriptures that are used hit nerves with us as they were used to harm us and others.

Regarding tithing-- now we were faithful tithers to that church for over 8 years- plus for me churches prior. We didn't tithe every sunday perfectly- but close- and we gave in addition to building funds, visitors, and missions etc...

Only in the last year have I questioned tithing. Now I want to know why it is the only old testament law that we still follow....Not many have been able to answer me. They say, "Jesus tithed" and my answer always is; "and Jesus observed the sabbath on Saturday; went to jewish temple; followed jewish dietary laws etc... Do we do that?" and the answer often is, "no. we are under the new covenant."

"pastors have to feed their families" I am also told. But I read that Paul- he was a pastor, right? Was a tentmaker to not be a burden to his people. I know they helped him when he had need- but he did not take a salary.

It confuses me. Seems like a lot of people use docterine to suit their own needs.

Thanks for responding,
Jane

[Count]

"pastors have to feed their families" I am also told. But I read that Paul- he was a pastor, right? Was a tentmaker to not be a burden to his people. I know they helped him when he had need- but he did not take a salary.


Paul was not a pastor. Actually, there was no pastor in th first century. Pastor is an invention of modern man.

By the way, if "pastors have to feed their families" let them work. The problem is not with the pastors. The problem is with us, the laymen. As long as laymen are ready to give their money to them, there will always be pastors.

[lismore]

Paul was not a pastor. Actually, there was no pastor in th first century. Pastor is an invention of modern man.

By the way, if "pastors have to feed their families" let them work. The problem is not with the pastors. The problem is with us, the laymen. As long as laymen are ready to give their money to them, there will always be pastors.

You Know Count thats just so true:thumbsup:

If we, the members of Christ's Body, the living stones, rose up into what God has planned for us and acted like we could , we would see the souls saved that we saw in Acts2. Instead we have one man giving us all his pet theories and doctrines:( in a dictatorship type setting.

We all have gifts that need so slot together like a jigsaw, no-one man has it all.

God Bless

Lismore:)

[Hisrosebud]

Lismore,

I am confused. Is that a picture of you in your avatar? Are you wearing a collar?

by your post, does this mean you are not a priest? Or just one that doesn't want to be giving sermons all the time?

just being nosey-- ignore me if you want to.

Jane

[lismore]

Lismore,

I am confused. Is that a picture of you in your avatar? Are you wearing a collar?

by your post, does this mean you are not a priest? Or just one that doesn't want to be giving sermons all the time?

just being nosey-- ignore me if you want to.

Jane

Hi Jane:wave:

No its not me!

Its a priest on TV called Dougal:)

[Buttermilk]

Hi Jane:wave:

No its not me!

Its a priest on TV called Dougal:)

He's from a programme called Father Ted

[Hisrosebud]

oopsie daisy.....LOL and LOL

sorry. Is he on a show in England or here in the states too??


Shows you how much I know. We don't watch too much tv here because I am chasing after two preschoolers, a seventeen year old boy--keeping a garden growing; a house clean (um, sort of) and all the busy ness of everyone's schedules. (track meets, gymnastics, swimming lessons.)

Sorry...

Jane

[lismore]

oopsie daisy.....LOL and LOL

sorry. Is he on a show in England or here in the states too??


Shows you how much I know. We don't watch too much tv here because I am chasing after two preschoolers, a seventeen year old boy--keeping a garden growing; a house clean (um, sort of) and all the busy ness of everyone's schedules. (track meets, gymnastics, swimming lessons.)

Sorry...

Jane

Hi there:wave:

Its an Irish TV programme actually, about three priests in a parish in Ireland.

Dont worry about missing TV- most of it isnt worth watching. I only watch a couple of programmes a week.

:)

[Bevlina]

Well, Father Ted is one show I'd love to watch! It sounds fun!
Continued persecution will now keep me away from churches forever.

[Starbucksbuzz]

Yes. Totally. I've learned a ton from my "traumatic experience" but man, it still hurts. :/

[~HopeFloats~]

Yes,

After my husband filed for divorce and cheated I was angry with God thinking if I attened church nothing bad would happen..I was so young then too

I now think and God never wastes a HURT and we all become stronger from it.. Like it is a way God chooses to bring us closer to him..

I have often been told we struggle for the Glory fo God..


I am back and have a stronger relationship with God because of all I have been through:amen:

[representative]

wow... I don't know what to say... my heart aches after reading all of these stories...

I myself was born (again) "out of church", a few christians in my town really had God's heart for me and they taught and taught and taught.... all I can do is praise him...

I know that a few of them were hurt by their church, and others still go to church and love it...

but I live in the "church" I get to fellowship/learn/teach/minister everyday (that is, if I want to leave the house :)), in my free time and at work, I go to services every now and again, I know and can speek to most of the offical leadership in my town, but somthing (mabye God, or mabye me) is keeping me from staying at one place, but I have a strong sence of community though I don't attend one church or denomination...

I guess I have had blind eyes to some of the crazy stuff that goes on in the name of Christ...

Sincerealy Baffeled,
representative

[DiscipleOfIAm]

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

This is from a post I wrote right after this happened. Ever since then, my family has not been able to find a church. We have been away from church for about 3 months or more. We are so tired of the "church search". Anyway, here it is:
-------------------------

WARNING - LONG STORY - BUT WOULD LIKE INPUT

This is something I can't just keep bottled up. I have to share and get some feedback from others. This has never happened to me and I'm very disturbed by it. Let me start from the beginning.

A few months ago, my family moved back to a city we lived in 3 or so years prior. When we lived here before, we were never able to find a church to call home. We decided to visit a church back in Jan after trying two others and we liked this one enough to go again and again. We had a list of churches we wanted to try and we had reviewed websites, emailed the pastors, etc prior to making the list.

Well, we ended up going to this church we visited for about 2 months. I sort of started a dialogue with the pastor via email and began asking doctrinal questions and advice on scriptures and more in depth information about his sermons to grow on and further study.

The church began mentioning membership and we took the form to fill it out. My wife and I started praying about it and discussing our thoughts and feelings with each other. I emailed the pastor and explained we had the form, but I was concerned that we had not attended the church long enough to consider membership. He said, no, don't worry about that, we want you as a member. My wife and I kept coming back to the thought that there was this one church we had always wanted to visit and never did because of going to the other regularly. We decided that in order to be sure this current church was for us, we needed to finish out the list and try the last church we had intended to try anyway. We needed to be sure about the membership. We liked the current church, the people, the pastor, but we take membership very seriously. The church lacked some things we felt would enhance our walk with God, but we were willing to follow God wherever he leads us.

So, out of respect for the pastor and the church that we had grown fond of, I notified the pastor that we wanted to make sure we were making the right decision and that we were going to try this other church before applying for membership at his church. The response was not what we expected. We were told to pick one or the other and stay put.

After we visited the other church, we realy loved it. It had everything the current church had, but also had some of the things that were lacking. We decided we had better not apply for membership and that we needed to begin attending at the new church. I informed the pastor of this, again out of respect to him, not that we were members or needed to explain ourselves to anyone. His response was fine, but stay there.

It kept eating at me, so I finally emailed him and told him I was really bothered by his response and wanted to ensure I had not offended him by not joining his church. I told him the things we loved about his church and the things that his church didn't have that we were looking for. I wanted to make sure I was leading my family where God wanted us to be.

I received the most rude, unchristian response I have ever heard from a pastor. He begins to tell me that I have offended him, that I don't know scripture and that I'm full of myself. How dare I offer any type of criticism or evaluation of his church, I'm not a consulatant and I do not know scripture of their church. He accused me of being a church hopper. He tells me I need a mentor to get in my face and bring me down a notch, I should be listening and not advising anyone and basically that I'm a big piece of dirt that he wishes he had never met me. He said it is people like me that frustrate the leadership of a church after pastoring a person who then leaves their church. Almost as if, you had better attend his church for life if he is going to waste his time with you.

It would appear if you do not have a Doctorate in Divinity, then you cannot have an opinion about anything with this guy either. The kicker is this, he is buddies with the associate pastor at the church we tried and liked. He is going to share with him some thoughts about me and my family. Basically, warn them about us and that we will go there 2 months and leave, so don't waste their time with us. Which is odd because he knew from the beginning that we were looking/searching for the church God was going to lead us to. We never committed to his church and even if we had, God leads people away from churches and to others everyday. I'm very concerned about this. This is going to give the new church a wrong pre-conceived notion about us.

I'm very confused and hurt by all of this. This was a man that I trusted and looked up to. I feel like he is personally mad at us for not joining his church. I explained the reasons for us not feeling at home there, but all he did was attack me and degrade me and my knowledge of scripture. Now, he is going to share his dislike for me with the new church's leadership. This is going to hinder my family in their walk with God, growing, and all around comfort zone at the new church.

Sorry for the long message, but I had to get this out. It is effecting my whole family. My wife had intended on staying in her Thursday morning ladies bible study at this church since she had been going for 4 weeks, but she feels really uncomfortable at the church now. The pastor's wife is in her group and he is there during the day and she sees him when she is there.
----------------

Well, there it is. We did not end up at the new church either. The leadership there got wind of the story and the rest is history. We've been without church ever since.

God Bless!

[StevenL]

Don't worry about it DiscipleofIAm. You're better off not attending clubs that are masquerading as God's called-out Assemblies anyway. You'd do much better just leading your family into the Word of God and prayer and worship yourself. Maybe find a few families that would like to meet together in the Holy Spirit and serve God. You'll learn a hundred times more Word and you'll have the Peace of God in your life. These synagogues of the Enemy are just leading people into ignorance and bondage anyway. If you'll hear it, God is already leading you.....OUT.....just like the Word says.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

Don't worry about it DiscipleofIAm. You're better off not attending clubs that are masquerading as God's called-out Assemblies anyway. You'd do much better just leading your family into the Word of God and prayer and worship yourself. Maybe find a few families that would like to meet together in the Holy Spirit and serve God. You'll learn a hundred times more Word and you'll have the Peace of God in your life. These synagogues of the Enemy are just leading people into ignorance and bondage anyway. If you'll hear it, God is already leading you.....OUT.....just like the Word says.


Thank you for the words of encouragement. This is actually the first I have ever heard of "home church".

It's funny because yesterday we were trying to decide on a church to go to and we couldn't, so like always, we didn't go at all. I told my wife, "I'm done with church shopping. We're going to just have church at home with us and the kids and that will be all we need." Then, today, I see this forum. I usually frequent the Baptist forum and have not noticed this before.

She isn't too keen on the idea, but maybe God is trying to tell me something?

Thanks again!

[StevenL]

Thank you for the words of encouragement. This is actually the first I have ever heard of "home church".

God bless you brother. Get deep in that Word and seek God. He'll show you what to do. Feeding on the Word will keep you from backsliding **if** you read it with a view to obeying it. Show your wife the power of God and she'll fall in line with you. My heart is with you, man. Be filled with the Spirit.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I guess I'm very,very lucky because my entire Church decided to become "unchurched" together in the community....

It's the idea of deliberately deconstructing Church so that it becomes BOTTOM-UP rather than TOP-DOWN, the idea being that we are all priests and therefore discipleship should be a community thing:: including non-Christian's.

Also, that without any 'physical' meetings and so on, we can be reabsorbed into our communities and actually rely on them - rather than serving them in order to be a good example to convert them, or at worst, to ignore our communities and leave it to the Evangelism Team... our Church is in the process of emerging - may take decades - but we have thrown ourselves into our local communities in order to genuinely learn and engage with them... I realise we risk loosing our distinctiveness as Christian's - but that is also the point... if our distinctiveness is truly important and essential, we will - and do - work out ways to facsilitate discipleship, accountability, money-sharing, all the usuall Church-stuff, despite shooting ourselves in the metaphorical foot...

If anyone out there understands this - and I express this because I am living it, not because it's a nice philosophical idea - do PM me. Of course, after all this, we could end up back with Sunday meetings, guitars and Bible-groups, but as long as I go through this emergence, I'm happy cause it's the right thing for us at the moment...



It's like The Three Little Pigs - The Sequel!!!

My experience is that the mainstream Church is like a house of bricks - which, of course, it is - where the little piggies hide from the wolf, while the wolf devours all the other little piggies outside the building.

While I have no wish to stick my head in the wolves mouth, we just got bored in the brickhouse... then, lo and behold, we all decided to blow the house down and use the bricks to extend the buildings around us, and bash the occasional wolf.

http://korealife.blogspot.com/pics5/20.JPG

I think my retake of the 3 little pigs, kinda sums up what I'm on about; it is the very thing that is the percieved weakness of Emergent Church - dispersement - that is its strength and calling.

I do not advocate others to follow, I would like to know who else is following in their part of the globe - or who else gets this.

VIVA INTERDENDENCE !!!!

[If Not For Grace]

When I was younger, I did not realize that everyone who attended Chruch did not do so for the "right" reasons. I let those people give me a bad image of Jesus/God. Also, I had failed to realized that the "money changers" were there in Jesus's day as well.

I had the expection of being taught (and still do..) by ministers rather than being preached at...(I did not realize I could ask questions and do research myself). See I thought I had to agree with everything---they advocated or opposed....Later I learned to take what I liked (enjoy it) and leave the rest (without feeling hypocritcal, or being confrontational) seeking God's guidance.

The church is not perfect and will never be...me either (that's why we NEED Jesus to begin with...

[bvwsmaker]

DiscipleofIAm - Your story made me cry. That is definitely a scenario of everybody loses! You lose the chance to experience christian community with the body of Christ and they lose whatever gifting that God has given you and your wife to enhance the body.

Even though these two places have left a poor experience with you, do you have any other options for a church in your area? Perhaps God still has a surprise in store for you with something that you may have overlooked or not even tried in the first place.

Edit: Of course I forgot there was one more page of reading. I just had to respond quickly and forgot.

Funny about finding this part of the forum indeed! God does love to surprise us! (Even the times we don't recognize the surprise!)

[M Paul]

This is from a post I wrote right after this happened. Ever since then, my family has not been able to find a church. We have been away from church for about 3 months or more. We are so tired of the "church search". Anyway, here it is:

I'm sorry you had this experience. There's a lot I could say about it, but it most likely would lead nowhere, and then I would be making public statements about people, which perhaps, are better not said in public. Basically, what it all boils down to is, that your experience is typical. I mean that's what pastors are like. In order to deal with it, you have to come to that realization and learn to trust your conscience, the Bible, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the counsel of other Christians who you know and trust.

I've been a Christian for 25 years. I can't think of even one conversation with a pastor that had any significance or value to me at all. In my personal experience, they can only answer questions on superficial matters, although at times they are willing to say that some situations are complex and need additional prayer (that's helpful--ain't it). I believe also, as a personal opinion based on my experiences, that the great majority of pastors have a facade, and not very far behind it, they are full of themselves and their own interests. That may sound like a broad statement, but it's just what I have experienced.

I became a part of the emergent church movement, due to studying Scripture, and realizing the cell unit was the biblical model of church structure, and the congregational and epsicapol models weren't in the Bible. However, I believe that the human traditions that are necessary to support these non-biblical models inherently lead to abuse and naturally lead to irrelevance and the pursuit of the self-interest of the leadership. I should mention, that I am professionally trained, and my experience includes seeing pastors very close up, being exposed to their initmate thoughts on their ministries. I have to admit, for the most part I found them disgusting, and I was with a very broad range of professional pastors. However, the real reason I went with the emergent church is, that it is what is found in Scripture, and it provides the most relevant manner of being a community.

Regards,

Paul

[Godzchild]

Well I don't class myself as 'unchurched' as I have been baptised into his body by his Holy spirit. That will never change. I do, however, class myself as 'uninstitutionalised' and yes a bad experience did lead me to this position. Being brought up in a 'cult' does that to people I guess :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Being brought up in a 'cult' does that to people I guess :)

Not just being brought up in a 'cult'!!

Most people are put off by institutionalised Christianity, and those within the institution think this makes them ever righter!!!!!?

Go figure.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I said this earlier, my whole church has become unchurched with the community around us, together!

[~Wisdom Seeker~]

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

Yes.

I can't talk about it anymore. I find that talking it to death just makes the pain of it stay fresh and the anger and frustration renew.

But, I don't trust church anymore. It's like child abuse, or sexual abuse. You never get back what was taken from you. Even if you forgive and move on. Traumatic events leave scars.

[Godzchild]

Most people are put off by institutionalised Christianity, and those within the institution think this makes them ever righter!!!!!?



I would class this as 'cult-like' ;)

[~Wisdom Seeker~]

I think it becomes cult-like when the church leadership thinks they're God. And it is they who should be worshipped and obeyed. And they start punishing those who do not agree.

[janny108]

Hmm I wonder; was anyone here ever part of the Way International or another cultlike group? Could be anything...cause I can understand why church would be a turn off for you esp in one that tended to be controlling.



Jan

[M Paul]

It seems that as the emergent church becomes more and more popular, those who still support the congregational church are trying to find rationalized explanations for the movement, rather than to deal with how its members base it on Scripture. Thus, the congregationalists say that EC'ers want to protest, that they've had a bad experience, and thus, they reject the congregational churches. That type of argument will be used to try to stay the movement, but as it is merely a method to circumvent the real issues the EC presents, it will fail.

The EC holds that the biblical model of the church is the cell unit--a house church/whole church organization. And, they hold that the popular congregational church is based on human tradition. The issue is--which model is truly represented in Scripture??? Nothing more has to be considered, and actually shouldn't be.

However, as the EC holds that because the congregational church is based on human tradition rather than the Bible, it has a tendency toward abuse, irrelevance, and diverting focus away from Christianity's real issues in daily life. The frustration of past experiences with the congregational church, due to its upholding tradition over Scripture, is often on the minds of the EC'ers in discussing the movement with Christians in general, and in itself seems to confirm the truth of thier biblical view. Neverthesless, the real issue is--what model of church structure is upheld in Scripture?? Rationalizing excuses to avoid real debate on this issue isn't going to stop the movement.

Regards,

Paul

[janny108]

Hmm I wonder; was anyone here ever part of the Way International or another cultlike group? Could be anything...cause I can understand why church would be a turn off for you esp in one that tended to be controlling.



Jan

Seriously anyone who has had cult experience can pm me as I've had it too.
Jan

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Emergent Church...

http://www.enginecreations.com/unseenchurch/images/pigz.gif

www.enginecreations.com/unseenchurch (http://www.enginecreations.com/unseenchurch)

[discernomatic]

I can't talk about it anymore. I find that talking it to death just makes the pain of it stay fresh and the anger and frustration renew.

But, I don't trust church anymore. It's like child abuse, or sexual abuse. You never get back what was taken from you. Even if you forgive and move on. Traumatic events leave scars.

Hi Laurenda,

Sorry I didn't get to you sooner. I was on vacation and did not have access to a computer.

There is something in what you say. I used writing to get over most of my frustration. A lot of bible study and prayer was necessary too.

I have scars too, but am just getting back to exploring other churches (with caution). I have learned not to expect too much from other Christians. Sometimes I think we get hurt because we open ourselves too much, trust too much. Other Christians are human too and fallible. Ideally we should be able to trust other Christians with our hearts, but sadly this does not always meet reality. In the future I will be much more cautious when beginning Christian relationships. I think that it is better to have a few solid, dependable friends rather than many shallow ones. Don't forget that there is a Friend that sticks closer than a brother.

Whatever you do, don't give up on Jesus Christ. Let what happened to you spur you on to an even stronger faith. Church does not have to be with a highly organized group of people including property and church building. Church can be just you and one or two other Christians studying Scripture, praying and breaking bread together. Often I find that far more edifying than a church service, and you are more able to talk about your problems and help others with theirs.

discernomatic

[discernomatic]

However, as the EC holds that because the congregational church is based on human tradition rather than the Bible, it has a tendency toward abuse, irrelevance, and diverting focus away from Christianity's real issues in daily life. The frustration of past experiences with the congregational church, due to its upholding tradition over Scripture, is often on the minds of the EC'ers in discussing the movement with Christians in general....Rationalizing excuses to avoid real debate on this issue isn't going to stop the movement.


Hi M Paul,

Just got back from vacation and saw your post.

I don't think that janny108 was referring necessarily to the Emerging Church Movement or to the congregational type church. I know of people that have been psychologically injured in both kinds. Both conservative and liberal churches are not immune to spiritual abuse, no matter how bible-toting or holistic they may be.

I think that most people don't busy themselves with terms like EC. Maybe you should specify with names like Brian McLaren or Rick Warren or terms like paradigm shift. These still may not mean much to those posting in this thread.
One reason for the thread was to see if others were unchurched because of a church incident, like myself. Also, I set it up more for those that feel they need an outlet, or so that they can find others in like situations and perhaps be able to comfort each other. I needed comfort myself as I started the thread.

discernomatic

[discernomatic]

Emergent Church...


Cool graphics, artist! ;)

You guys seem to have a really off-the-wall, er, no-walls church. Is it really part of the Emergent Church Movement or were you just joking?

I'd prefer if you'd PM me to answer. Or start a new thread and give me the link. The theme doesn't really belong here.

discernomatic

[M Paul]

Hi M Paul,
I think that most people don't busy themselves with terms like EC.
discernomatic

Well, I had just the other day started a thread on the terms. For the home churchers, I think these are the most common--Emergent Church, Emerging Church, Home Church, House Church, Non-Institutional Church, New Testament Church, Cell Church. However, there are others, such as my thread explored with Unseen Church and Hidden Church, which I just added to my web site. I noted in that thread, that people against the home church movement are at times playing games with the terms in order to set up strawman arguments to oppose it, and that creates some confusion. However, I also noted the vocabulary is still in development due to the relative newness of the movement. However, home churching definitely is a world-wide movement and it needs a common term of reference. Emerging/Emergent Church seems to be winning out. Therefore, lately my tendency to refer to home churching is to use Emergent Church, or EC for short, but from my web site, you can see I prefer the term Non-Insitituional Church, and that's for historical and connotative reasons. Some people are attributing different meanings to the various terms, but these have not reached any type of level of general acceptance, at least not from the literature I've read, and if real degrees of differences are established, it's going to be quite some time, but I think actually that will not happen. So--I hope with this post that I explained my communication dilemma.

Regards,

M Paul

[discernomatic]

Hi M Paul,

Maybe your thread would be a better place to continue. I'll find it and meet you there. :)

discernomatic

[heron]

Discernomatic,
thanks for what you're doing here, and for keeping the thread active. I've run across several people recently who'd had traumatic experiences, but were confronted by comfortable Christians with the same old obligations and arguments...grinding it in.

I'd just like to keep this comment below active, for everyone defending the concept of submitting to leadership. This does happen. To shun people with these stories is yet another abuse.
I received the most rude, unchristian response I have ever heard from a pastor. He begins to tell me that I have offended him, that I don't know scripture and that I'm full of myself. How dare I offer any type of criticism or evaluation of his church, I'm not a consulatant and I do not know scripture of their church. He accused me of being a church hopper. He tells me I need a mentor to get in my face and bring me down a notch, I should be listening and not advising anyone and basically that I'm a big piece of dirt that he wishes he had never met me. He said it is people like me that frustrate the leadership of a church after pastoring a person who then leaves their church. Almost as if, you had better attend his church for life if he is going to waste his time with you.

Newday, that Government of 12 sounds scary! I would guess, though, that it was invented by some grad student or pastor to be an idealistic model...not considering what an unrealistic game it was. I've come across similar rules, where churches try to impose higher levels of committment at the cost of family life and healthy autonomy.

Rosebud, happy birthday! Do a search on "tithe" in the OT...it had more to do with community welfare than we would ever imagine. There were loads of specified tithes and offerings, some of which were shared with the priests' families, some with the poor, and some with each other.

My story, I seem to collect abusive churches. My first was connected to something that was later called a cult. Actually, my very first church had agnostic pastors who reprimanded those who tried to introduce Jesus to the youth.

I have found that when I gravitate toward interesting churches, ones that make me feel alive, I also subject myself to the accompanying volatility. It's like caffeine and salt: they are stimulants because they beat on your body. But I still use them.

What has surprised me over the years, has been the inner voice of God's response when I pray over these issues. He defends the oppressed. When all around you see people rave of God working in the churches, you never hear them speak of the quiet voice in the wind, the indwelt Spirit that guides each person. The last time I prayed about leaving a church with problems, God responded, "You could have left long ago!"


For all of you, I have some words from God (not our imaginations):

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

Romans 9:24-26; Hosea 1:10; 2:23.

[discernomatic]

Discernomatic,
thanks for what you're doing here, and for keeping the thread active. I've run across several people recently who'd had traumatic experiences, but were confronted by comfortable Christians with the same old obligations and arguments...grinding it in.

Thanks for the compliment. I think that if we are to be Christlike, love for others must be at the top of our list. Jesus was always direct, but he never kicked anyone who was down, rather he offered his hand.

I'd just like to keep this comment below active, for everyone defending the concept of submitting to leadership. This does happen. To shun people with these stories is yet another abuse.

That comment could have happened to me too (have posted what happened to me on my website - without names). The same person or someone similar sent me a lot of nasty letters to my CF mailbox too. I cannot publish them because of the rules here. I think that everything that happens to us can be used by God. "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." Romans 8:28. In my case it has turned me outward to help or at least console those that have been in a similar situation. I can't just watch others suffer and do nothing.

If I may ask, did the "comment" happen to you or to someone you know?

[heron]

If I may ask, did the "comment" happen to you or to someone you know?
Not those exact words! :eek: But it started when I was young, where someone told me, "What right do you think you have that you could hear God's will for your life yourself?" That was after several years of discerning God's voice.

I have watched this happen to others in church after church. Finally, we attended a church where God was hinting to us, "You have been through this and know what to watch out for." We saw the signs of volatility and risk, and felt that God was giving us an open hand to warn leaders of certain details. We were not divisive, and supported leadership in all our comments, but were more blunt in our letters than they were ready for.

I'd never heard that from God before--only messages from leadership that the people needed to submit. But it felt like a step of maturity, to risk my reputation for the sake of protecting others. It ended up being sacrificial, but not very painful, as I hadn't invested my emotions as deeply as others there.

As you said, a lot of people (hundreds) needed comfort and protection afterward. Many horrible and crushing statements were made to the congregation. People here who try to push abuse converstations aside as rebellion or whining have no idea how God's people have been trampled. What you went through is not only emotionally damaging, but it shakes your faith and your trust in people...in churches...in theology...sometimes in God.

I don't see the sense in bringing people into the church when they are so ready to drive them away with cruelty.

God does protect His people. He is the great shepherd.

[If Not For Grace]

Spiritual Abuse

I have never really thought about it, but I like the term. Many so-called churches are guilty of this. I have experienced it on several levels.



BUT we have to remember the devil comes to church too. He is also in the world not just of it. IMHO we should not just withdraw from organized churches, politics or our communities and live among ourselves-sounds like hippieism to me.

I am in the process of looking for a church in a new community right now and feel criticism for seeking any input other than the"voice of God" on another thread in this very forum.

Change comes from within. Sometimes we are just to unequipped or even lazy to attempt change from within, I know I was. I just try and remember the following:



To many folks these days are trying to come up w/a game plan before they know their way to the ballpark.

The Bible, like a bank, is most helpful when it is open.

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires

[discernomatic]

Not those exact words! :eek: But it started when I was young, where someone told me, "What right do you think you have that you could hear God's will for your life yourself?" That was after several years of discerning God's voice.....felt that God was giving us an open hand to warn leaders of certain details. We were not divisive, and supported leadership in all our comments, but were more blunt in our letters than they were ready for.....it felt like a step of maturity, to risk my reputation for the sake of protecting others.

I know where you're coming from. I got criticism fairly early too and still experience it even though I'm over 30 (ain't sayin' how much) mainly because I am a woman, I think and also because I am not clergy.
To the rest of what you wrote I can say AMEN, too :amen: . Jesus is capable of protecting and guiding each one of us as the good shepherd that He is.
[/QUOTE]

[discernomatic]

I am in the process of looking for a church in a new community right now and feel criticism for seeking any input other than the"voice of God" on another thread in this very forum.
I wouldn't criticize you for looking for a church or group. I think that fellowship with other Christians is a good thing when possible. Just be cautious and watch out for manipulation and gimmicks, that's all. Be discerning. :)

[If Not For Grace]

Always search for the truth. The truth is not always pretty.
I think you signature quote says alot.

[Chrystal-J]

I had a pastor tell me and about 10 other people to lay down on the floor of the rec hall and he turned out all the lights and played that song "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" really loud and told us to just listen to the music and not to anything else going on in the room. It was pitch dark, so you couldn't see anything and the pastor kept walking around in the dark, kneeling next to everyone. I don't know that he was doing to them, but the whole thing was really strange to me and I couldn't imagine what it had to do with the Bible or Jesus. It gave me the creeps, along with his constant asking for a hug from everyone. I quit going there soon after the "song" incident and now when-ever I hear that song...I get a creepy feeling.
I guess you just have to read the Bible for yourself and let it be your guide, as man has faults and can lead you astray--but, the Word never will.
Take Care,
C J

[2+2=5]

I had a pastor tell me and about 10 other people to lay down on the floor of the rec hall and he turned out all the lights and played that song "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" really loud and told us to just listen to the music and not to anything else going on in the room. It was pitch dark, so you couldn't see anything and the pastor kept walking around in the dark, kneeling next to everyone. I don't know that he was doing to them, but the whole thing was really strange to me and I couldn't imagine what it had to do with the Bible or Jesus. It gave me the creeps, along with his constant asking for a hug from everyone. I quit going there soon after the "song" incident and now when-ever I hear that song...I get a creepy feeling.
My lands! :eek:

[heron]

It sounds like he was trying to relive the 70's...get back some of the spirituality he saw then. But it was invading territory then, it's invading territory now.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

It's when they ask you to lie on a stone table and play "spice up yer life" you wanna get outta that Satanic Girl-band Church!!!!

And don't even enter the Barbie-the-Barbarian Temple!!!!!

[M Paul]

I couldn't imagine what it had to do with the Bible or Jesus.

It doesn't have anything to do with Jesus. It's a song about heroin. "Sail along silver girl, sail on by, your time has come to shine..." A silver girl is (was) ghetto slang for a heroin hyperdermic needle, and the heroin sails through it into the veins. So the bridge over troubled water is heroin.

Regards,

Paul

[breezynosacek]

Hmm, have been enjoying the honesty here. Traumatic experience? More than one, two or three. It seems that organized religion has been out to get me for years.

Ritual Abuse had a lot to do with it. Then being called a liar when I tried to extract my sister from the abuse. That all happened when I was in my early teens. I turned my back on all of it.

Then, when I became a Christian, I thought, well going to Church is what a Christian is supposed to do. Right?

The apostasy kept showing up! Except two churches which I loved, both pastors left.

So, after getting worn out looking for a Church, God put me out in the pasture. And there, I end up ministering to those who have been abused by the Church, or who have had to leave their church because of the apostate teachings that infiltrated their once sound churches.

Hubby and I were even under a spiritual covering for our ministry and it went south too!

So, Church is when two or more are gathered together in Jesus' name and since we gather together often, we don't feel that we lack very often.

My hubby and I just don't trust the leaders today. We only trust in Jesus. Period. I think it will remain that way until He returns and we don't think that will be too long the way things are going.

I sort of feel like flandidlyanders, I'm throwing bricks at wolves, finding the stragglers and trying to help them get armed with the Word.

You'll think this is a bit funny. Every once in a while, I get that "I should be in a Church" feeling. It goes back to brainwashing I guess.

Well a couple of months ago, we were at a Walmart and this old fella pops up and starts talking about the apostasy and the end times! Without any encouragement, LOL!

I listen and he goes on to tell me that he is a retired minister. He was called back into ministry by the Lord. His ministry is....get this....to go into the Churches that are teaching false doctrines and ministering the Truth to the individual sheep. Letting them know that what is being taught is not the Word but is man's doctrines and doctrines of demons. (little god's, WOF, ect)

I'm reckoning that it is time to 'come out of her'. I've seen more and more churches taken over by false teachers and met more and more believers who know their churches turned false but don't know what to do now.

[If Not For Grace]

Breeze: Good points really. There seems such a number of people from everywhere recounting similar experiences. With such numbers I wonder if we could not do a little reform within the system, am I just naive? In my original "baptist (Southern Baptist)" church, there were only 3-4 youths who would entertain the idea of submitting a new notion. But I have found that within the politics of the church USUALLY only a small portion of members run the place and the rest of the congregation does not know/care about the behind the scene deals, pet projects or money. With the power of EMAIL, Chats cell phones today, could some of this stuff not be brought into the light a little?

I loved some of the things about church, it was just the few, the proud and ego seekers that made it tuff. Can we not forgive them and attempt change from within in addition to meetings in homes, etc.

[M Paul]

I loved some of the things about church, it was just the few, the proud and ego seekers that made it tuff. Can we not forgive them and attempt change from within in addition to meetings in homes, etc.

Not necessarily so simple. Some denominations are not only very resistent to change, they have unseen built in mechanisms for dealing with it, and the reason they're unseen is because they are dishonest--("Oh who?? Us?? Get behind me Satan?? If it's us doing it, it's from God. Someone cast the demons out of him!!!") One can forgive them, but one might then just have to leave them alone. If one wants change, that first requires a lot of prayer, and I do mean a lot. Then, there will be encounters and exchanges, and unless the Holy Spirit is a part of it, well, it ain't pretty, and even with the Holy Spirit there, his role might be to shield off the darts. Hmm--all a very long discussion. However, we should seek change, but only with the exercising of great wisdom, and letting the Holy Spirit show us how it is done.

Regards,

Paul

[heron]

I wonder if some of the untouchable mindset comes from seminary...although I've known of many independent pastors who had no seminary training.

Maybe they're treating this as running a business: how to motivate people, how to cut out those who waste time, pinpointing troublemakers who speak negative of the organization, targeting natural-born leaders to instigate things for others, etc. They have to consider a whole other set of principles; what is truly effectual for the kingdom gets to the heart of the lowliest member and their personal needs.

The assumption that members don't want to get involved in the mechanics is often promoted by leadership but not actually true; it's simpler for them to make decisions with less input, so they often ignore members' pleas to get more involved. (I'm using several churches as examples.)

A twenty-year old once told me how discouraged her brother was when he graduated from seminary and took on an established church. The members resisted every plan and program he wanted to implement. She was appalled at their disrespect and stubbornnes. I was appalled by his insensitivity and disrespect. In my mind, the church was the people. In the pastor's mind, the church was his craft project.














"So, Church is when two or more are gathered together in Jesus' name and since we gather together often, we don't feel that we lack very often."

[heron]

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.

-Edward Abbey



I am glad to see that a system of labor prevails under which laborers can strike when they want to...I like the system which lets a man quit when he wants to and wish it might prevail everywhere.

-Abraham Lincoln



The protection of a man's person is more sacred than the protection of property.

-Tom Paine, The Rights of Man, 1792



It is my contention that civil disobedients are nothing but the latest form of voluntary association, and that they are thus quite in tune with the oldest traditions of the country.

-Hannah Arendt, Crises of the Republic, Civil Disobedience 1972



Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Richard Price, January 8, 1789

[If Not For Grace]

I could not agree w/you more, many are run like businesses:

and with regard to change:


there will be encounters and exchanges, and unless the Holy Spirit is a part of it, well, it ain't pretty, and even with the Holy Spirit there,


I KNOW ROM EXPERIENCE this is fact. However, Many of us attend church and just never say a word about the injustices etc that go own in our midst. We are like Joseph of Ar. meeting in darkness, do-gooders who do not want to rock the establishment. (I am one of them). So I advocate, being in "good standing" and not letting the FEW run the rest of us out.

Is it not time for us to take a MLK passive resistance stand against such?
I ask those of you who have experienced this to pray about this matter.:groupray:

PS I believe prayer changes things.

[discernomatic]

I had a pastor tell me and about 10 other people to lay down on the floor of the rec hall and he turned out all the lights and played that song "Bridge Over Troubled Waters"......
That does sound spooky! Sometimes ´particular words or music can trigger memories and feelings. That sort of thing is hard to get rid of. Hope you have peace, Chrystal-J.

[discernomatic]

So, after getting worn out looking for a Church, God put me out in the pasture. And there, I end up ministering to those who have been abused by the Church, or who have had to leave their church because of the apostate teachings that infiltrated their once sound churches....

Well a couple of months ago, we were at a Walmart and this old fella pops up and starts talking about the apostasy and the end times! Without any encouragement, LOL!

I listen and he goes on to tell me that he is a retired minister. He was called back into ministry by the Lord. His ministry is....get this....to go into the Churches that are teaching false doctrines and ministering the Truth to the individual sheep. Letting them know that what is being taught is not the Word but is man's doctrines and doctrines of demons. (little god's, WOF, ect)

I'm reckoning that it is time to 'come out of her'. I've seen more and more churches taken over by false teachers and met more and more believers who know their churches turned false but don't know what to do now.

Ha! Ha! :wave: I know where you're coming from. I ended up doing that too, both comforting others that have been hurt and telling of false doctrine. You know, I have even gone into churches and told individuals to question what they hear like that guy does. It has the result that one is not well liked by pastors and leaders. They expect one to join and submit (especially if one is a woman) or stay away. Sigh. God's opinion is more important to me than man's opinion is.

[Chrystal-J]

Thanks discernomatic.
I'm fine with everything now...just a lot more leery of people who *claim* to be Christian (or Christian leaders) and are not. I guess you can only truly trust the Word. I would like to be able to trust in men, but have had too many odd experiences to do that right now. Maybe someday...

[M Paul]

I wonder if some of the untouchable mindset comes from seminary...although I've known of many independent pastors who had no seminary training. "


Absolutely!!! The real reason to go to seminary is to learn how the games get established and how they actually operate. Then, if one is not suckered into it, he/she can really know what will be involved in trying to make a change. However, without that seminary experience, I don't think a person can truly understand the schemes that go on in the church.

Regards,

Paul

[M Paul]

I could not agree w/you more, many are run like businesses:

and with regard to change:



I KNOW ROM EXPERIENCE this is fact. However, Many of us attend church and just never say a word about the injustices etc that go own in our midst. We are like Joseph of Ar. meeting in darkness, do-gooders who do not want to rock the establishment. (I am one of them). So I advocate, being in "good standing" and not letting the FEW run the rest of us out.

Is it not time for us to take a MLK passive resistance stand against such?
I ask those of you who have experienced this to pray about this matter.:groupray:

PS I believe prayer changes things.

I think as long as one is praying first, he/she can take baby steps for change, and as more experience comes, more steps can be taken, until a whole plan is set out. The important thing is not to move on one's own wisdom. There has to be confirmation from the Spirit first. It takes time, and then it happens.

Regards,

Paul

[heron]

Paul, did you do seminary? I've had a couple friends who changed their mindsets during that time, gaining appreciation of tradition. I'm all for seminary training, since it involves Greek and Hebrew and comparative theology and public speaking practice and knowing resources. But there might be something missing, or a little too much ivory tower talk and peer "rightness" competition.

[breezynosacek]

Absolutely!!! The real reason to go to seminary is to learn how the games get established and how they actually operate. Then, if one is not suckered into it, he/she can really know what will be involved in trying to make a change. However, without that seminary experience, I don't think a person can truly understand the schemes that go on in the church.

Regards,

Paul

I've been somewhat on the inside of things. My stepfather went to Tennessee Temple Bible School in Chattanooga TN. They have a huge campus there. Seminary, Bible College, High School on down. They also have a huge Church and several Chapels right in the middle.

Seeing as how they train so many missionaries, when they come in on furlow, it is a sight to behold.

Anyway, what I want to relate to you is something that shocked me.

We are sitting in a huge Church with a huge balcony. The missionary gives the message that night and he gives a call for those that want to rededicate their lives to the Lord and about 1/4 to 1/3 come forward. I would like to remind you that these are students and their families.

Then the missionary gives an alter call for any one who would like to accept Christ as their Savior. By the time all of them got out of their pews, I would say that there were only about 15 or 20 of us who had not gone forward.

That should tell us something. These people had gone to Seminary and hadn't even accepted Christ yet!

When I had visited Benny Hinns church in FL, I was amazed when he introduced several hundred pastors that had left their pulpits to come sit under Benny's teachings. This went on for weeks or months, I'm not sure but I couldn't understand why anybody that had been called by God would leave their pulpits and sit under a false teacher. That was also about the time that I realized that he was teaching things that were twisted.

[New_Wineskin]

Hmm, have been enjoying the honesty here. Traumatic experience? More than one, two or three. It seems that organized religion has been out to get me for years.

It is out to get you . :)

Ritual Abuse had a lot to do with it. Then being called a liar when I tried to extract my sister from the abuse. That all happened when I was in my early teens. I turned my back on all of it.

Then, when I became a Christian, I thought, well going to Church is what a Christian is supposed to do. Right?

The apostasy kept showing up! Except two churches which I loved, both pastors left.

So, after getting worn out looking for a Church, God put me out in the pasture. And there, I end up ministering to those who have been abused by the Church, or who have had to leave their church because of the apostate teachings that infiltrated their once sound churches.

Hubby and I were even under a spiritual covering for our ministry and it went south too!

So, Church is when two or more are gathered together in Jesus' name and since we gather together often, we don't feel that we lack very often.

My hubby and I just don't trust the leaders today. We only trust in Jesus. Period. I think it will remain that way until He returns and we don't think that will be too long the way things are going.

I sort of feel like flandidlyanders, I'm throwing bricks at wolves, finding the stragglers and trying to help them get armed with the Word.

You'll think this is a bit funny. Every once in a while, I get that "I should be in a Church" feeling. It goes back to brainwashing I guess.

Well a couple of months ago, we were at a Walmart and this old fella pops up and starts talking about the apostasy and the end times! Without any encouragement, LOL!

I listen and he goes on to tell me that he is a retired minister. He was called back into ministry by the Lord. His ministry is....get this....to go into the Churches that are teaching false doctrines and ministering the Truth to the individual sheep. Letting them know that what is being taught is not the Word but is man's doctrines and doctrines of demons. (little god's, WOF, ect)

I'm reckoning that it is time to 'come out of her'. I've seen more and more churches taken over by false teachers and met more and more believers who know their churches turned false but don't know what to do now.

Yep . Many people are starting to realize this .

[heron]

"P.S. I believe prayer changes things."

Yes, God knows what's in others' hearts, and what kind of heat you'll take with whom. And I have watched Him change hearts when I was concerned about a person's stance and actions. Check with the Navigator before you take the back roads.

[M Paul]

Paul, did you do seminary? I've had a couple friends who changed their mindsets during that time, gaining appreciation of tradition. I'm all for seminary training, since it involves Greek and Hebrew and comparative theology and public speaking practice and knowing resources. But there might be something missing, or a little too much ivory tower talk and peer "rightness" competition.

Yes, I did seminary. However, I don't talk about it. I don't see how it would accomplish anything positive. I keep it to myself. I might talk about it privately some time, but that has never been necessary. However, I would say you are right to be suspicious.

Regards,

Paul

[M Paul]

That should tell us something. These people had gone to Seminary and hadn't even accepted Christ yet!

When I had visited Benny Hinns church in FL, I was amazed when he introduced several hundred pastors that had left their pulpits to come sit under Benny's teachings.

At the seminary I attended everyone had accepted Christ, so I don't know how well I could relate to your experience.

Benny Hinn is an extremely controversial character, and discussion of his ministry in an interdenominational setting is just about impossible, as people don't set out their biases and prejudices first, before making assessments. I can't say I know that much about him, but I am a Classical Pentecostal --hmm, he may be Faith Movement. I saw an NBC news program review of his ministry, and obviously thier objective was to run him down. They asked for medical records to verify his healings. He provided them, and they had thier own doctors review them. The doctors said it was always possible that the people actually were misdiagnosed to begin with. That was the best they could come up with??? Well, they put as much of a negative spin on it as they could.

I saw him teach Scripture once on TV, and it was not accurate, but it wasn't unChristian in any sense. At any rate, keep in mind that every highly successful religious revival in America has been denounced and condemned by well educated people with prestigious positons in the church (almost always from a Calvinist background) --but these revivals are what kept America Christian. Finney said when revivals dies, America dies as a Christian nation--but Finney is condemned to this day. But, when Beecher forced him into a debate to prove he was not genuine-well, when the debate was over, the only thing Beecher would say was that he would never debate Finney again. And the main critic of Edwards, Chancey, he went on to become a Unitarian, the very thing that Edwards' opponents accused him of causing. Hinn is in a long line from this tradition, and a lot of them had some inaccurate theology, including Finney, and Edwards endorsed Arminianism as a postive thing for evangelism, even though incorrect. Whether Hinn is genuine or not--I don't know--but I know that the tradition he is from has always been condemned since the First Great Awakening, and most of it was just prejudice against believing in the power of God. But, then the Pharisees didn't like the power Christ had, and they made certain his theology proved he was not orthodox.

Regards,

Paul

[heron]

Ah yes, and church history in seminary is valuable....thanks for details and your confession (seminary), Paul. I can understand why you wouldn't mention it here. It'll be our little secret, lol.

The important thing to remember with any of these incidents is that God stillsees hope for these people. It doesn't need to be an us-them situation. They are people who probably started out with good intent, and need to be brought back in line. God can do that, He does it all the time. That's where prayers are so valuable.

Scriptures say to pray for those in authority. Some people do, some don't. Some think it's just a rote practice, okay, pray for the president. But if we're not covering our influential people with prayer, who knows what the influence will become. We're not strong enough as humans to keep doing it perfectly year after year, on our own steam.

[M Paul]

Ah yes, and church history in seminary is valuable....thanks for details and your confession (seminary), Paul. I can understand why you wouldn't mention it here. It'll be our little secret, lol.

The important thing to remember with any of these incidents is that God stillsees hope for these people. It doesn't need to be an us-them situation. They are people who probably started out with good intent, and need to be brought back in line. God can do that, He does it all the time. That's where prayers are so valuable.

Scriptures say to pray for those in authority. Some people do, some don't. Some think it's just a rote practice, okay, pray for the president. But if we're not covering our influential people with prayer, who knows what the influence will become. We're not strong enough as humans to keep doing it perfectly year after year, on our own steam.

Yep. But most church history I know, I had to learn on my own.

:-)

Paul

[discernomatic]

Absolutely!!! The real reason to go to seminary is to learn how the games get established and how they actually operate. Then, if one is not suckered into it, he/she can really know what will be involved in trying to make a change. However, without that seminary experience, I don't think a person can truly understand the schemes that go on in the church.
Commenting on this and what Breezy said after:

This is an eye opener. So is this telling of the seed of spiritual abuse and trickery? That those that go to seminary learn how to do it or better, learn how to do it so that the future church members don't notice? :eek:

Maybe that's what Benny Hinn was doing with those pastors.

[breezynosacek]

I'm not totally sure what 'all' Benny Hinn has been involved in. I left after I realized that he was twisting Scriptures. Those that I fellowshiped with that had introduced me to Benny's Church became enraged when I suggested that the Holy Spirit had shown me this. (how that happened is for another time).

The point is, that he brainwashed them not to question his doctrines or his methods. "Touch not the Lord's annointed."

I went away from my 'freinds' hurt and wounded. As a new believer, just starting to get a solid foundation in the Word, I had looked up to these people that had been Christians for 20 yrs or so.

I was invited to a picnic and at first, I refused to go. I didn't want to open myself up to the same people that had abused me earlier.

Boy, was I surprised!
The most vehement person in the whole matter, left our area to join up with one of those groups that were started by one of the pastors that sat under his teachings. She came back so beat up, and according to her, had to run away to save her life. She looked like she had just been released from a concentration camp.

To make a long story short, she backed up what I had said all those years ago. Apologized profusely, in fact the majority of those that had shunned me apologized and said that yes, Benny had gone off the deep end.

Now, I know that I have forgiven them, but even after they offered their opologies, I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do know one thing, I wouldn't ever want any of them to pray for me or over me.

Swapping demons (through the laying on of hands and coming into agreement with prayers that are antiscriptural) is a habit among a lot of the Charismatics and those that got into the little gods, WOF, holy laughter movements, personally, I am of the opinion that that is how this thing spread.

I began to notice that those that still held to the Truth, would go into these conferences with some of the leaders of said movements. When they got back, it wouldn't be long before they started showing some of the same signs as the false teachers when they first started out.

One of the first things I now warn those that are determined to find a church is, "don't let them lay hands on you and be careful what you come into agreement with (give your amen's to)".

I know this is going to sound off the wall. The Lord taught me to pray for discernment before going into a new church. Don't participate, stand back and watch and pray and listen. Look up every single Bible passage. That's how I spotted what was wrong in Hinn's Church. I had prior to that gotten caught up in the praise and worship but when I went back that last time, I prayed and watched.

Not concerning Hinn's false teaching but rather what goes on during the services. The music is set up (now don't go postal on me) to mesmerise and brainwash. The adrenaline alone will encite many that wouldn't normally blindly follow a leader's directions, to do just that. For anybody that has been exposed to cult movements and the use of brainwashing techniques it is easy to see.

1. Militant Songs that are supposed to be hymns that normally leave out the blood of Jesus Christ or His sacrifice.
2. Repetitions, repetitions, repetitions.
3. Music that heightens the adrenaline to a frenzy. (you can actually see people during these services become vulgar and vile in their body movements). Some even foaming at the mouth or losing control, similar to epilepsy.

What I heard the Holy Spirit tell me was that

'If Benny said to the congregation during the praise and worship, "Your guns and ammunition are in the back, go kill all of the heretics" they would do it without questioning.'

Now let me tell you that I really questioned if that was from the Lord or not, but several years later, I was told by the Lord twice, to turn on the TV to watch them. Paul Crouch and Benny Hinn both said on national TV that "I wish I had a Holy Spirit machine gun so I could kill all you heretic hunters!!!"

To say the least I sat there with my mouth hanging open in shock.

[M Paul]

I'm not totally sure what 'all' Benny Hinn has been involved in. I left after I realized that he was twisting Scriptures. Those that I fellowshiped with that had introduced me to Benny's Church became enraged when I suggested that the Holy Spirit had shown me this. (how that happened is for another time).

Oh sure. But the thing about Hinn is that he is Pentecostal. And, the prejudice against Pentecostals has been around as long as they have. And those who want to preach against them have their techniques--like it's an obession with them, so that they find every opportunity to bring it up, how the people who believe in the power of God are all wrong. Like this forum--it's supposed to be about the unchurched and the home churched, and a discussion of the validity of Benny Hinn or Pentecostals has nothing to do with the issues to be reviewed here. But there are ways to make sure he is brought up, so that every detail of the ugly truth about him can be smeared in every corner.

However one thing the people who want to smear Pentecostals just don't get is, how obvious their schemes are. That's why they don't work--so that by 100 years after the Azusa Street Revival, Pentecostals were bringing 50 million believers a years under their ministries, and by today, the number is still increasing so fast, no one can keep count. You see, the Pentecostal response is, like what Charles Finney taught, don't respond to those who want to condemn and create strife over the power of God, just keep on preaching what one knows is the truth. So, those who want to make a ministry out of condemning, well, they're already having to do so from the side lines, while the Pentecostals are taking over the mainline of Christianity. Let me quote a review of a book by a Penn State University professor.

"The scale of Christian growth is almost unimaginable," said Dr. Philip Jenkins, distinguished professor of History and Religious Studies at Penn State University.

Jenkins shocked and probably panicked some of America's political and media elite with his acclaimed book, The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity. Jenkins argues the greatest movement of the past century was not communism or capitalism. Do the math and the winner is spirit-filled Christianity, or what he terms in his study as "Pentecostalism."


So, as far as Hinn goes, the condemnation will continue, and the great majority of it, well it might just as well be written on toilet paper, for the truth that can be found in it.That's just how prejudice and truth works.


Regards,


Paul

[M Paul]

Commenting on this and what Breezy said after:

This is an eye opener. So is this telling of the seed of spiritual abuse and trickery? That those that go to seminary learn how to do it or better, learn how to do it so that the future church members don't notice? :eek:

Maybe that's what Benny Hinn was doing with those pastors.

I'm sorry. I'd really rather not talk about it. There are good people in seminaries and on the staff. I don't think I was making myself clear, but I'd rather not go on with it.

Regards,

Paul

[New_Wineskin]

The point is, that he brainwashed them not to question his doctrines or his methods. "Touch not the Lord's annointed."


I see this in many groups that have leaders and state that it is important to be committed to a singular group . Even if they would allow questions , they usually don't allow equal time for those who question or have an argument against a teaching/doctrine . And , even more rarely would such a thing be allowed in the same meeting where everyone could participate in a discussion or even allow any others to be a part of it at all .

Combine this with the attitude that the meetings are to be centered around a teaching and the leaders are allowed full reign .

[heron]

So true.

"I am still reluctant to have anything to do with them. It's almost like I feel the need to keep checking out their doctrines to see if they are holding to the truth or if they have followed another false teaching. I do