Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Q:

Do you not miss the "traditional" Fellowship, Music Worship and Teaching Discussions?

seems like, not only in rc, but all other denoms,
"the traditions of man have thrown out the Word of G+D" ...
in any church, any denom, if you stand up and tell the truth, they ask or
demand that you leave. they have already rejected the chief cornerstone. Yhwh's Word says it is so, it is not a matter of
opinion or of any human's observations. Like Apostle Paul wrote, "It doesn't
matter what you or I say or think, but what Adonai thinks that is important".

[Johnnz]

I have found the fellowship we have as a small group meetinga nd eating together over 2-3 hours far more meaningful that what I had experienced before.

We worship, and touch God.

Our times together are deeply interactive - no lack of discussion.

John
NZ

[discernomatic]

Repentance is always a requirement, without which there is no forgiveness.
There are no exceptions found anywhere in Scripture, not even one.
True, but as I said before, I have gays in the family. I would not accept them in my church, but I cannot reject them entirely.

Jesus helped the woman that was about to be stoned (John 8). He did not condone her actions, but did not accept them either. He did tell her to stop sinning. "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

This passage and other similar ones do soften the blow. God will decide whether people are saved from their sins or not at the end, we don't have that authority, even Paul was afraid to judge himself.

A little over a year ago I may have written what you have, but something happened to me. I was rejected by a church for no good reason. I am not gay, living out of wedlock, or in some other obviously sinful situation. I am married to an unbeliever, but so are a lot of other Christians. I was accused of pride - that was a false judgement by those that use Scripture as an excuse for being judgmental and a reason not to show someone love, mercy and fellowship. I am a free thinker, but that does not imply pride. Pride isn't a reason to keep someone out of church either, even if that had been the case, though it may be a reason to keep someone from becoming pastor.

Jesus was not unloving, harsh or unmerciful. He wasn't the sugary sweet person that some try to make him out to be, but always showed proper judgment and had love and mercy on those that he could. He hated falseness, and therefore did criticize the Pharisees with good reason, but did have mercy on sinners, and did eat with them even before they repented.

I think that Paul was zealous to protect those that he saw as under his care, and therefore said such statements as "do not even eat with them." He was afraid that his charges would start sinning again if they hung out with sinners. In some ways I think he was right, but everyone must judge for himself how much danger he is in. For example, I can eat with gays, and associate with them, as I am in no danger of becoming gay. Someone who has stopped such behavior might want to avoid gays, he might be in danger of taking up the old habits if he hangs out with such people.

Just hope that someone doesn't think that you are on the "wrong" side of the line some day whether justified or unjustified. Being rejected - as Jesus Christ was - is no basket of roses. The rejected should be comforted and I can do that because I am one of them. No one knows about rejection better than Jesus. Taking up the cross is taking up the rejection that Jesus experienced. Being thus doubly rejected - rejected even by some that call themselves Christians - I have sympathy with others in like situations, what happened to me was a learning experience. I am not too proud to eat with sinners as I am one of them. Sure, I stay away from situations that would cause me to sin and pray, "and forgive me my sins as I forgive those who sin against me and do not lead me into temptation, but deliver me from evil."

If I had not become more sympathetic and loving toward others - still have a long way to go in that too - then the spiritual abuse that happened to me would have been for nothing.

[JamieGraham]

When I was 10 yeasr old I became unchurched. My mom asdked me why I refused to go. It was because there were children of poor families that were scoffed at becuase they did not have the best of clothing. At age 10 i found it to be disgusting.
In addition - at age 15 I had friends that would be sinful during the week to turn and say they would go to confession and be forgiven on Sunday - just to start all over again - with the sins for the week to come.

More recently when my brother was killed - at the funeral the priest was very off colored in the service. I will not say exactly what he did as the list was so long. However - it was NOT of the 'cloth' to say the least. It was a reminder to me that we are all human - no matter the title - we should not take our selves or postions of "godly" influence lightly. We need to be responsible, kind, empathetic, merciful, non-judgemental and loving or our brothers.


Thank you for allowing me to share.

[New_Wineskin]

When I was 10 yeasr old I became unchurched. My mom asdked me why I refused to go. It was because there were children of poor families that were scoffed at becuase they did not have the best of clothing. At age 10 i found it to be disgusting.
In addition - at age 15 I had friends that would be sinful during the week to turn and say they would go to confession and be forgiven on Sunday - just to start all over again - with the sins for the week to come.

More recently when my brother was killed - at the funeral the priest was very off colored in the service. I will not say exactly what he did as the list was so long. However - it was NOT of the 'cloth' to say the least. It was a reminder to me that we are all human - no matter the title - we should not take our selves or postions of "godly" influence lightly. We need to be responsible, kind, empathetic, merciful, non-judgemental and loving or our brothers.


Thank you for allowing me to share.

I noticed similar things with that group and came to similar conclusions though it took me to 16 or 17 years of age for it to click .

[discernomatic]

When I was 10 yeasr old I became unchurched....poor families that were scoffed at becuase they did not have the best of clothing....at age 15 I had friends that would be sinful during the week to turn and say they would go to confession and be forgiven on Sunday - just to start all over again....
No church is perfect, but I understand you, those that go there should at least be trying to behave like Christians. More tolerance, and complete abolition of prejudices would be a good start. That so many treat church like a sort of club seems like a waste to me. They have completely missed the point.

Sorry about your brother, Jamie.

[New_Wineskin]

By looking at the Church as a set of groups , *that* is looking at their group as a club .

Does anyone find it odd that , when a believer doesn't do a few things just right , they are harassed . Yet , when it comes to a group , people say , "No church is perfect" ? Why the double standard ? I know why . I was wondering if someone else would come out and say it . :)

[discernomatic]

By looking at the Church as a set of groups , *that* is looking at their group as a club .

Does anyone find it odd that , when a believer doesn't do a few things just right , they are harassed . Yet , when it comes to a group , people say , "No church is perfect" ? Why the double standard ? I know why . I was wondering if someone else would come out and say it . :)
I said "no church is perfect" because a church congregation can only be as loving as the members in it, and no one has reached perfection while on this earth. I have not found one single church body where I liked all of the doctrine and all of the people either. Some compromises may be doable, some may not. I have never been conscious of harassing anyone in a church setting, on the contrary, I was one of the harassed. Something like that softens you up if you can learn from it, turning around and doing it to someone else would make the situation useless.

Those that have the double standard think that they are better or more righteous than the others, like the Pharisees in Jesus' day did. They forgot that they are sinners too as long as they are alive, even though chosen and saved. Who knows, some churchgoers may not be saved at all, and are therefore impatient, mean and unloving no matter how much money they donate or how many church functions they attend and how proper they are, but God is the one that will decide what happens to them.

[belladonic-haze]

I recently had a traumatic experience that kept me out of a church when I thought I finally had "come home" after many years of being away from them. Have you had one? If it is not fit to print here because of the restrictions you may send it to me via my website. Just click on my profile and then the site link. I will definitely handle it discreetly. If you want it posted on my site anonymously, I will consider posting it. I have some links to organizations that help in such matters but am looking for more. If you can help me in that way (you will be helping others as well), please send me a mail.

I was raped by a Christian man, who went to chruch the next day....I became unchurched, hate religion and didn't believe in God for many years...

Later on He saved my life when I was ready to take my own life because of the rapes........it took Him 20 years to heal me, but I am glad I returned to God and I have found a wonderful church that makes me feel safe!

[New_Wineskin]

I said "no church is perfect" because a church congregation can only be as loving as the members in it, and no one has reached perfection while on this earth.

I meant , why the double standard of those that say that people *must* "go to church" and look down on those who don't ( not saying you do this ) and yet allow the groups to not be perfect .

I appologize for suggesting that you would be one of those insisting on people attending meetings . I hear that phrase mostly from those that think differently .

[discernomatic]

I was raped by a Christian man, who went to chruch the next day....I became unchurched, hate religion and didn't believe in God for many years...

Later on He saved my life when I was ready to take my own life because of the rapes........it took Him 20 years to heal me, but I am glad I returned to God and I have found a wonderful church that makes me feel safe!
I'm sorry that you had to go through that, the abuse that I experienced was not physical, but hurt too. I also had suicidal thoughts after what happened to me. Physical abuse that is in any way connected to a church or "churchy" people is spiritual abuse too. It can affect one's spiritual life as well, even for many years, as it did for you. Some never recover. I'm glad that you were able to overcome the abuse. Thanks for sharing, belladonic-haze.

[discernomatic]

I meant , why the double standard of those that say that people *must* "go to church" and look down on those who don't ( not saying you do this ) and yet allow the groups to not be perfect .

I appologize for suggesting that you would be one of those insisting on people attending meetings . I hear that phrase mostly from those that think differently .
No apology needed. I wasn't mad or anything, should have put an emoticon in. :P
Do you think that it is a pharisaical attitude that makes people behave that way? I think that even some doctrines, or reactions to certain doctrines can cause this kind of attitude in some congregations. Someone on another forum mentioned the toxic atmosphere in some churches, caused by the pastor badgering deacons and such, favoring, belittling, bootlicking - even though it didn't necessarily come out over the sermons or other more direct way.

[New_Wineskin]

No apology needed. I wasn't mad or anything, should have put an emoticon in. :P
Do you think that it is a pharisaical attitude that makes people behave that way? I think that even some doctrines, or reactions to certain doctrines can cause this kind of attitude in some congregations. Someone on another forum mentioned the toxic atmosphere in some churches, caused by the pastor badgering deacons and such, favoring, belittling, bootlicking - even though it didn't necessarily come out over the sermons or other more direct way.

Yes , indeed . It is definitely an attitude of a pharasee nature . They so want to place everyone under a law that they will ignore that it conflicts with their allowance for something else . They won't even admit the hypocracy . It is very likely that they cannot even see their hypocracy .

[Qidron]

The church we were very involved in and the one that had the most impact on us was in the early nineties. It's been so long now that I dont think about it but it still affects my life I know for sure.

.... it was just hard to accept that he was showing us that our brothers and sisters who we had admired, adored, loved and feed with the best we could give, were in fact OUR ENEMIES !!!!! :eek:

Like I said...same time frame as our "shaking"....but it doesn't seem so long ago, because so much of what we had known for so long just came to an abrupt end. Recently I noticed the calendar...and yes...it was a long time ago. So many years have passed.

After we left the false group we had been a part of, we had tried to plug into another congregation, but the funny thing was that we...and I do mean many in our family...felt a real coolness developing in the NEW congregation...but since it couldn't be true, we really thought we were being paranoid because of what had just happened....turns out that not only were the pastors from both groups close...the exact same people who had spread vicious lies about us are extremely close to the assistent pastor....and the shunning was not our imagination. We just could not remain in that type setting any longer...so now we just stay home. One of our sons is at IHOP and the people there have been very Christ like...there is hope. Meanwhile...like Discern encourages...we stay in the Word and we pray.

But the enemy thing...I can see both sides. I understand what Discern is saying, but also...these folks CHOSE and executed enemy plans against us and yeah, they were "friends" or so we really thought....so it cut deep. Now I deliberately choose to pray for them....there is no other way.

Blessings...glad to have had this CF opportunity and to know there are others in the same Boat with us...really...it has helped.

[sing4777]

My husband and I use to pick up young people and take them to church. You could say that the kids that we brought to church - for some (including the youth ministers)these kids were undesirable. The day that a young boy left church in tears :cry: was the day that we had had enough. We tried for a long time to discard false teaching, the religion with no evidence of the Love of Christ (for all men will know you're my disciples by your love for one another) and the political dance that was the norm in church for years - but when we witnessed this young person so broken by those that should have shown him the love of Yeshua, we knew if we couldn't bring hurting kids there then we didn't belong there either :( . Now we worship :bow: and study at home as a family :groupray: and we have grown closer to Adonai and each other as a result. Organized Churches say, "make us a mega church" - it seems that most (or at least the ones that I have been exposed to) organized churches are out to build their own kingdom - not the Kingdom of God :sigh: . I could go on forever... Sorry if it's too much.

[Qidron]

Sing....and the Lord continues to bring His own out to take us back to square one because He has plans that supercede the mega idea.
Blessings

[sing4777]

I do have to say that it has taught us to rely only on YHWH and to allow the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) to lead us into all truth. Pure and undefiled religion is about being an expression of the love of Messiah and keeping yourself unspotted from the world. It has become evident that the organized church has become so blind to the fact that they are becoming more and more like the world - if not more worldly than the world. For so long we felt alone and rejected. But then again, so was Yeshua. He was rejected by the religious leaders for preaching the true Kingdom of YHWH - and after all, a slave isn't greater than his Master.

[shakingthedustoffmyfeet]

Yes. Then I was struck with a debilitating neurological disorder. Electrocution-type pains invaded my face. I knew I needed something I was not getting at home. I returned to the church of my grandparents, long deceased. Healing, so thorough and merciful, became a part of my life. It was a process. I thank God for healing me. I still go to church there, and I also go to another church with my husband on Sunday mornings. It was hard for me to learn that God is what worship is about. I meet Him at church, in my home, anywhere I can. He redeemed me and healed me through His son Jesus Christ.

[Evangelica]

Yes. Then I was struck with a debilitating neurological disorder. Electrocution-type pains invaded my face. I knew I needed something I was not getting at home. I returned to the church of my grandparents, long deceased. Healing, so thorough and merciful, became a part of my life. It was a process. I thank God for healing me. I still go to church there, and I also go to another church with my husband on Sunday mornings. It was hard for me to learn that God is what worship is about. I meet Him at church, in my home, anywhere I can. He redeemed me and healed me through His son Jesus Christ.
It`s hard for people who are ill and can`t go to church, because so many people think that if you don`t go to church your not a Christian. However I found that the time that I was ill and couldn`t attend was the most benificial time I have spent with God. I think God uses that for His benifit, not just illness, but time spent alone with Him.

[Machachachi]

I did in fact have a severly traumatic experience of spiritual abuse about when I was 11, but that was not the reason in the end I left the church. Though it was a contribution. I left in the end, because I saw no fruit.

[Qidron]

I did in fact have a severly traumatic experience of spiritual abuse about when I was 11, but that was not the reason in the end I left the church. Though it was a contribution. I left in the end, because I saw no fruit.

Machachachi...enjoy the NEW DAY the Lord has brought you to. Blessings.
Qidron

[Bobber]

This is from a post I wrote right after this happened. Ever since then, my family has not been able to find a church. We have been away from church for about 3 months or more. We are so tired of the "church search". Anyway, here it is:
-------------------------

WARNING - LONG STORY - BUT WOULD LIKE INPUT

This is something I can't just keep bottled up. I have to share and get some feedback from others. This has never happened to me and I'm very disturbed by it. Let me start from the beginning.

A few months ago, my family moved back to a city we lived in 3 or so years prior. When we lived here before, we were never able to find a church to call home. We decided to visit a church back in Jan after trying two others and we liked this one enough to go again and again. We had a list of churches we wanted to try and we had reviewed websites, emailed the pastors, etc prior to making the list.

Well, we ended up going to this church we visited for about 2 months. I sort of started a dialogue with the pastor via email and began asking doctrinal questions and advice on scriptures and more in depth information about his sermons to grow on and further study.

The church began mentioning membership and we took the form to fill it out. My wife and I started praying about it and discussing our thoughts and feelings with each other. I emailed the pastor and explained we had the form, but I was concerned that we had not attended the church long enough to consider membership. He said, no, don't worry about that, we want you as a member. My wife and I kept coming back to the thought that there was this one church we had always wanted to visit and never did because of going to the other regularly. We decided that in order to be sure this current church was for us, we needed to finish out the list and try the last church we had intended to try anyway. We needed to be sure about the membership. We liked the current church, the people, the pastor, but we take membership very seriously. The church lacked some things we felt would enhance our walk with God, but we were willing to follow God wherever he leads us.

So, out of respect for the pastor and the church that we had grown fond of, I notified the pastor that we wanted to make sure we were making the right decision and that we were going to try this other church before applying for membership at his church. The response was not what we expected. We were told to pick one or the other and stay put.

After we visited the other church, we realy loved it. It had everything the current church had, but also had some of the things that were lacking. We decided we had better not apply for membership and that we needed to begin attending at the new church. I informed the pastor of this, again out of respect to him, not that we were members or needed to explain ourselves to anyone. His response was fine, but stay there.

It kept eating at me, so I finally emailed him and told him I was really bothered by his response and wanted to ensure I had not offended him by not joining his church. I told him the things we loved about his church and the things that his church didn't have that we were looking for. I wanted to make sure I was leading my family where God wanted us to be.

I received the most rude, unchristian response I have ever heard from a pastor. He begins to tell me that I have offended him, that I don't know scripture and that I'm full of myself. How dare I offer any type of criticism or evaluation of his church, I'm not a consulatant and I do not know scripture of their church. He accused me of being a church hopper. He tells me I need a mentor to get in my face and bring me down a notch, I should be listening and not advising anyone and basically that I'm a big piece of dirt that he wishes he had never met me. He said it is people like me that frustrate the leadership of a church after pastoring a person who then leaves their church. Almost as if, you had better attend his church for life if he is going to waste his time with you.

It would appear if you do not have a Doctorate in Divinity, then you cannot have an opinion about anything with this guy either. The kicker is this, he is buddies with the associate pastor at the church we tried and liked. He is going to share with him some thoughts about me and my family. Basically, warn them about us and that we will go there 2 months and leave, so don't waste their time with us. Which is odd because he knew from the beginning that we were looking/searching for the church God was going to lead us to. We never committed to his church and even if we had, God leads people away from churches and to others everyday. I'm very concerned about this. This is going to give the new church a wrong pre-conceived notion about us.

I'm very confused and hurt by all of this. This was a man that I trusted and looked up to. I feel like he is personally mad at us for not joining his church. I explained the reasons for us not feeling at home there, but all he did was attack me and degrade me and my knowledge of scripture. Now, he is going to share his dislike for me with the new church's leadership. This is going to hinder my family in their walk with God, growing, and all around comfort zone at the new church.

Sorry for the long message, but I had to get this out. It is effecting my whole family. My wife had intended on staying in her Thursday morning ladies bible study at this church since she had been going for 4 weeks, but she feels really uncomfortable at the church now. The pastor's wife is in her group and he is there during the day and she sees him when she is there.
----------------

Well, there it is. We did not end up at the new church either. The leadership there got wind of the story and the rest is history. We've been without church ever since.

God Bless!

I know this post was from along time ago, not sure if the person is even here now but I had to comment on this...unbelievalbe. So what if these dear people were going from church to church not being totally grounded...maybe they needed strenghtened to become that! I think some of these church leaders sadly to say are more interested in building kingdoms unto themselves....the writer of the post stated they had only gone to the church a very short time and church membership was being pushed on them....they replied they had only gone there a very short time and weren't sure they were ready to make that commitment. The

proper response I think should have been, "Ok no problem...the Bible says he that believes shall not make haste....get the absolute feel in your spirit what you feel God wants you to do" Instead of that the person was told, "No come and join the membership now" If one were to be cynical they might rightly wonder if maybe the pastors motives were right to begin with....Many of these church memberships always have statements to the effect that you're expected to bring a tithes off your gross salary into the church...that wouldn't by any chance be the motive for some of these churches having that in there as well? Put words of commitment over a persons life and stated you signed here. No I don't think all churches have wrong motives and Im sure they don't but lets not consider that some of this might

not come into play as well. I guess we can conclude that Jesus is the judge of everymans ministry....if this pastor needs to be reproved or rebuked of the Lord then maybe some day he'll hear some reproofs...[not that he won't maybe make heaven his home but im sure God will correct all of us on things we didn't do correctly] He might even ask us to apologize to some people we had hurt while on the earth. We'll see :blush:

[discernomatic]

Hi sing and Machachachi,

Sorry I have not been around much lately even though I started this thread. Have been setting up a blog and re-doing my site in xhtml, which ain't easy for non-geeks.

Disillusionment seems to cause many to leave and stay away from churches these days. It is because the Christianity some practice is institutional rather than practical and from the heart. Wherever people are really behaving as Jesus intended us to, there he is. I don't think that any Christian community is perfect, but you notice when people are making an effort to transform their minds - their character and heart - to that of Jesus Christ. That is where I want to be. I hope you find or make such a place, too. We don't "make" it through an institution or organisation, but through our words and actions no matter where we are.

d.

I just read a PDF book about such a theme called "So You Don't Want to Go To Church Anymore", by Wayne Jacobsen. It will be in print soon. You might like it. Here is my review about it which contains a link to the PDF: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Review,_So_You_Don't_Want_to_Go_to_Church_Anymore,_by_Wayne_Jacobsen.html

[TheAJKMan]

I can't say that my reason for finally leaving the chruch was traumatic, more just plain simple frustration. I guess you could call me somewhat unconventional, in both manne and thinking. My beef was not so much with the principle of the gathering of the saints, as it was with the saints themselves. I left before I became a bad apple. Long stories there, but before I became a problem, and believe me I was headed in that direction I left. So, for now I spend time on my own and on occasion visit at various churches.

TheAJKMan

[Rick Otto]

Thanks for resurrectin' it, AJK!!!
I think I've only read the first 15 pages so far, but it's gettin' late so I need to comment. I'll catch up.
I got stories aplenty, but ain't too big on commiseratin' at this point...
I DO think we need to ditch the term "church" except for negative connotations, tho. "Ekklesia" (called out ones?) doesn't sprain my tongue or short circuit my brain.

I identify churchianity with the Nicolaitanes, who Jesus said He hates. "They" will be quick to tell ya it's about a guy named Nick who had a promiscuous cult goin' on, but a direct translation is more revealing: nico=conqueror+laity=the people.

What an exciting bunch of people y'all are.
I'm SO glad to be here now (apologies to Baba ram Das).

Vait heah, Awl be bock.:cool:

[lismore]

I DO think we need to ditch the term "church" except for negative connotations, tho. "Ekklesia" (called out ones?) doesn't sprain my tongue or short circuit my brain.

I identify churchianity with the Nicolaitanes, who Jesus said He hates.

Thats a true point:thumbsup: . Jesus says he hates that system of church where people are separated into a clergy and a laity.

We are all one body. We all have gifts and talents to use and share. Everyone is valuable and is a treasure. Jesus is the only head of the church.

pastors are like the good samaritan, the same as us but who have a specific gifting to help the wounded. They are not Kings over us. Yeshua is the King. there can be only one King in the Kingdom of the King.

We are all in perfect unity together as members of one body under the head. Its only the home church that makes sense with the bible.

:)

[TheAJKMan]

Thanks for resurrectin' it, AJK!!!

Only a pleasure Rick, I'm fairly new here, so I'm just jumping in feet first. ;)

I DO think we need to ditch the term "church"

I have some reservations with that one, I think wee need to ditch the attitudes and associations that go with that word. We need to change the way that we think about it and also how the church thinks about it.

What an exciting bunch of people y'all are.
I'm SO glad to be here now (apologies to Baba ram Das).

Well, thank you kindly, though I don't know if you'll still find me so exciting a few weeks down the liine from now ;P *ng*
Vait heah, Awl be bock.:cool:

Yeah right, dream on buddy, I'm tired and it is sandman time for this sleepy puppy ;P

Love and peace to all.
TheAJKMan:sleep:

[Qidron]

I don't think it will do much good to ditch the term "church"...we can't ditch assembling together because we NEED to and changing the termanology won't solve the problem. Give us a few years and we'll mess up any new lingo we adopt.

But the fact is that the Lord really is calling his kids out of what we thought was the right way to go and to move forward. He is waking us up to a deeper understanding of His plan.

We've been ship wrecked and little bits and pieces of what that plan is are surfacing. Grab onto whatever floats and praise God for it. He is enthroned upon our praises...He WILL build his church.

I am very slow to change or understand what is going on, but I trust Him to take us there.

Blessings :)

[TexasSky]

I left a previous church because of a series of traumatic events in the children's area.

1) We had a Christmas musical that included children. The lead children's music minister started screaming at children. Not "brats who were acting up," but kids who missed their cues or turned the wrong way.

I took her aside and told her, "I understand that you want this to go right, but remember, the purpose of this presentation is to spread the love of Christ, you need to treat these children with love." She responded with, "I don't love the brats!"

2) The church asked people to work the nursery and extended session. We always volunteered, as a family, for extended session. Then the church announced that children of workers were not to help with extended session. We agreed, though it was very traumatic for our children as it now required them to find other ways to pass the two hours (yes, church was only an hour, but parents are very, very slow).

Then they announced that husbands and wives could not serve together. We quit teaching.

3) Our son came home reporting that a child in his Sunday School class was mocked because the child did not know the bible stories that children who have been churched their whole lives know. The teachers did absolutely nothing to stop to mocking, and in the eyes of my son and his friend, seemed to indicate agreement that there was something terribly wrong with the child who didn't know the answer.

4) While planning a church event for young children someone suggested all participants wear matching t-shirts, and that every child be required to purchase one for $10. A woman at the meeting suggested that we provide a scholarship for children who could not afford that, and pointed out that one family in the church had 5 children in the age range of the groups involved. Another woman snapped, "Well, is it our fault that she didn't keep her legs crossed? We shouldn't have to pay for deadbeats."

5) I have a very shy child. When he was young he was very uncomfortable in new situations. He had always attended church with his best friend. The friend is just a few months older than my child. When a new children's minister took over they changed the "age division" for kids, and this would have split my son and his friend. The department director, and the teachers, suggested to our families that we decide which department to put the boys in and let them stay together. The new children's minister told us that if we didn't comply with the new age division we shouldn't come back. That was the last Sunday my son attended that Sunday school.

6) I walked into the nursery area one Sunday night to see a young black woman being berated by an older white woman who was telling her that if she didn't "get the right kind of diapers" she couldn't come back. (She used cloth diapers because of an allergy her child had.)

I reported all of this to the Senior Pastor, who was new, found out nothing was going to be done, and my children told me that they had come to hate church because it was "mean" now.

We changed churches.

[Rick Otto]

I see your blessings & raise ya 3 hallelujahs!^_^
Don't read too much into my werdz...
the professing church is pretty much three wheels in the ditch already. I in no WAY meant to frosake assembling.
Yer absitively posolutely right about our collective tendency to make a mess of things, tho.

It is such a confusing word nowadays, because it means so much more & less than the ekklesia, the living stones that He builds it with. I think we need to respect the negative aspect of the term. It has become toxic and should be kept away from children of every age.

[Rick Otto]

Where to begin?
Easy. The begining.
I'm one of those guys who can remember bein' in diapers, not bein' able to walk or talk.
But what I remember of chyrch starts about 3&1/2 yrs old, back in '58.

It was Catholic, but that is incidental to the point. I had begun listening to the sermons and what I remember being profoundly impressed with is that God created everything & that He loved me. That hit me like a ton of truth bricks. It made SO much sense. It explained everything to my great satisfaction. I felt the ring of truth within that information, so naturaly my curiosity began to focus on Him.
One Sunday morning I was so consumed with it, I grabbed my mom's dress & began to tug ferociously during a 'everybody stand' reading of a few verses before the sermon. I said, "Mom! Hey mom! MOM!!"
She looks down annoyed & whispers "What?!"
I says,"Is that God?" pointin' toeard the pulpit.
Before she could answer, I hear somebody behind us whisper loudly,"No, he just likes to think he is!" much snickering & muffled laughter as mom says,"SHHHH!"
I was p.o.'d I didn't get the humor, & the most important question of my life had been ignored & shushed.

A few months later on my 4th birthday, I woke up, dressed myself, made my bed, & headed upstairs wonderin' why I hadn't been roused already. Mom said it was my birthday so I got to sleep late & could have whatever I wanted for breakfast. Naturaly I chose a peanut butter & jelly sandwich w/a glass of milk(tall).
I was feeling very good about myself & my place in the world as I walked out the door to the yard. Flannel shirts & blue jeans were all I ever wanted to wear for the rest of my life.
It was a beautiful spring day, crystal clear blue sky with one huge cumulus cloud sittin' right up close, a little ahead, so that it was easy to lay in the grass & watch the distant air streams shift the "lace" around the main body of cloud. Huge oak trees with crows bigger than our chihuahua decorated our end of a quite, suburban. dead end street. I was agahst at the incredible beauty of creation and excited at my ability to appreciate it, thinking surely it is true God loves me to have given me all this to enjoy.
At that moment, our chihuahua came walking up next to me, casting a proprietary gaze about the yard. I chuckled to myself thinking that as complex & wonderful as this little creature is, I was blessed even further beyond measure with my ability to appreciate not only all of it, but my Creator as well.
As this thought was completing, an audible rush of wind rose up behind me, and every blade of grass seemed to bow in worship, every single blade reflecting a highlight of glorious sunshine that ran from base to tip as they bowed in the wind.
Inside, I was blown over & away by an inrushing sensation of BEing loved, not of myself loving.

I made a connection with God that day that helped me survive all the traumas that awaited me in every institution I've since encountered, chyrch & family foremost.

Not to single them out, but the Catholics taght me fear.
I remember 1st grade catechism, Sister Mary Caniscious (aka "Vicious Canicious") patrolling the aisles with metal edged ruler in hand, looking for slackers to inspire as we answered in unision; "Who made you?" everyone answered,"God made me!"
"WHY?"
"Because He LOVES me!"(please don't hit me, please!)
I'm lookin' at sister Mary & in my minds eye I could clearly see a red armband, white circle, & black twisted cross... I look down at the book & see this long haired dude in robes (no ruler) with kids racing TOWARD Him.
The contrast between that picture & the one I was livin' in was shocking.
Of course, I could only react, & only inwardly at that. I lacked the articulation to express my thoughts & form the pertinent questions. But it didn't take too long...

More later if anybody cares for it.
I hate long posts!^_^
:cool:

[theunraveler]

i converted at 12 years old and deconverted at 18 and now i am 22 yrs old. i left my church due to alot of reasons. i was always a headstrong and rebellious boy i cannot suppress my inner demons, my impatience, anger and hate. it was true that christ did take away some of the pain for awhile and i tried to blend into christianity but it wasnt long b4 the demons of my past started to catch up on me. i started arguing at sunday school and in conference. i did alot of mischievous pranks that really **** off alot of ppl. i argued with elders and used 4 letter words on them.

not to mention my incessant questioning: where did cain's wife came from? wat about evolution? are there ppl on other planets? does it make sense to punish the children for the parents iniquities? wat if jehova isnt wat we think he is?

slowly i left the church and i no longer practice christianity actively nor do i preach. i try to find god in science since i believe that the creator of the universe will leave marks of him/her/it in the fabrics of creation, all it matters is where to look.

[Qidron]

Where to begin?
Easy. The begining.
I'm one of those guys who can remember bein' in diapers, not bein' able to walk or talk.
But what I remember of chyrch starts about 3&1/2 yrs old, back in '58.

It was Catholic, but that is incidental to the point. I had begun listening to the sermons and what I remember being profoundly impressed with is that God created everything & that He loved me. That hit me like a ton of truth bricks. It made SO much sense. It explained everything to my great satisfaction. I felt the ring of truth within that information, so naturaly my curiosity began to focus on Him.
One Sunday morning I was so consumed with it, I grabbed my mom's dress & began to tug ferociously during a 'everybody stand' reading of a few verses before the sermon. I said, "Mom! Hey mom! MOM!!"
She looks down annoyed & whispers "What?!"
I says,"Is that God?" pointin' toeard the pulpit.
Before she could answer, I hear somebody behind us whisper loudly,"No, he just likes to think he is!" much snickering & muffled laughter as mom says,"SHHHH!"
I was p.o.'d I didn't get the humor, & the most important question of my life had been ignored & shushed.

A few months later on my 4th birthday, I woke up, dressed myself, made my bed, & headed upstairs wonderin' why I hadn't been roused already. Mom said it was my birthday so I got to sleep late & could have whatever I wanted for breakfast. Naturaly I chose a peanut butter & jelly sandwich w/a glass of milk(tall).
I was feeling very good about myself & my place in the world as I walked out the door to the yard. Flannel shirts & blue jeans were all I ever wanted to wear for the rest of my life.
It was a beautiful spring day, crystal clear blue sky with one huge cumulus cloud sittin' right up close, a little ahead, so that it was easy to lay in the grass & watch the distant air streams shift the "lace" around the main body of cloud. Huge oak trees with crows bigger than our chihuahua decorated our end of a quite, suburban. dead end street. I was agahst at the incredible beauty of creation and excited at my ability to appreciate it, thinking surely it is true God loves me to have given me all this to enjoy.
At that moment, our chihuahua came walking up next to me, casting a proprietary gaze about the yard. I chuckled to myself thinking that as complex & wonderful as this little creature is, I was blessed even further beyond measure with my ability to appreciate not only all of it, but my Creator as well.
As this thought was completing, an audible rush of wind rose up behind me, and every blade of grass seemed to bow in worship, every single blade reflecting a highlight of glorious sunshine that ran from base to tip as they bowed in the wind.
Inside, I was blown over & away by an inrushing sensation of BEing loved, not of myself loving.

I made a connection with God that day that helped me survive all the traumas that awaited me in every institution I've since encountered, chyrch & family foremost.

Not to single them out, but the Catholics taght me fear.
I remember 1st grade catechism, Sister Mary Caniscious (aka "Vicious Canicious") patrolling the aisles with metal edged ruler in hand, looking for slackers to inspire as we answered in unision; "Who made you?" everyone answered,"God made me!"
"WHY?"
"Because He LOVES me!"(please don't hit me, please!)
I'm lookin' at sister Mary & in my minds eye I could clearly see a red armband, white circle, & black twisted cross... I look down at the book & see this long haired dude in robes (no ruler) with kids racing TOWARD Him.
The contrast between that picture & the one I was livin' in was shocking.
Of course, I could only react, & only inwardly at that. I lacked the articulation to express my thoughts & form the pertinent questions. But it didn't take too long...

More later if anybody cares for it.
I hate long posts!^_^
:cool:

I hate long posts too...but you've got me and I want to hear the rest...that is if this is for real. I have never known a child to be quite that alert at such a young age. (but then again, there's my grand daughter who jokes around and she's only 2) I can only remember blurs of my childhood and I think age 5 is the earliest. Anyway...I'm going to check your blog... Do you have a blog?

[Qidron]

i converted at 12 years old and deconverted at 18 and now i am 22 yrs old. i left my church due to alot of reasons. i was always a headstrong and rebellious boy i cannot suppress my inner demons, my impatience, anger and hate. it was true that christ did take away some of the pain for awhile and i tried to blend into christianity but it wasnt long b4 the demons of my past started to catch up on me. i started arguing at sunday school and in conference. i did alot of mischievous pranks that really **** off alot of ppl. i argued with elders and used 4 letter words on them.

not to mention my incessant questioning: where did cain's wife came from? wat about evolution? are there ppl on other planets? does it make sense to punish the children for the parents iniquities? wat if jehova isnt wat we think he is?

slowly i left the church and i no longer practice christianity actively nor do i preach. i try to find god in science since i believe that the creator of the universe will leave marks of him/her/it in the fabrics of creation, all it matters is where to look.

Well, I left "church" too and the truth is I really would like to be in a weekly fellowship, but I'm just having a hard time with that for a few reasons...but I have to say that it seems to me that you have a lot going for you and that the Lord will answer all those questions. Continue to seek Him, He WILL be found. When you recognize that He is for you and not against you, remember to trust God and love people...and don't get those two ideas mixed up.

You are precious in His sight.

[TheAJKMan]

The earliest memory I have is at about 2yrs of age going exploring in the neighbourhood on my tricycle.

As for not being "in" the church anymore, wasn't so much traumatic as it was just plain old frustrating :)

TheAJKMan

[Qidron]

I see your blessings & raise ya 3 hallelujahs!^_^
Don't read too much into my werdz...
the professing church is pretty much three wheels in the ditch already. I in no WAY meant to frosake assembling.
Yer absitively posolutely right about our collective tendency to make a mess of things, tho.

It is such a confusing word nowadays, because it means so much more & less than the ekklesia, the living stones that He builds it with. I think we need to respect the negative aspect of the term. It has become toxic and should be kept away from children of every age.

Agreed...and "church" is a confusing term any more. I've been calling my visits "going to a gathering" here or there. But I think I like "chyrch" for that other group of whatever they are. Tares? People I had so completely trusted. Well, we live and learn. But I really do want to move on, so Lord, do take me to that cross so we can get on with this.

[Qidron]

I left a previous church because of a series of traumatic events in the children's area.

1) We had a Christmas musical that included children. The lead children's music minister started screaming at children. Not "brats who were acting up," but kids who missed their cues or turned the wrong way.

I took her aside and told her, "I understand that you want this to go right, but remember, the purpose of this presentation is to spread the love of Christ, you need to treat these children with love." She responded with, "I don't love the brats!"

2) The church asked people to work the nursery and extended session. We always volunteered, as a family, for extended session. Then the church announced that children of workers were not to help with extended session. We agreed, though it was very traumatic for our children as it now required them to find other ways to pass the two hours (yes, church was only an hour, but parents are very, very slow).

Then they announced that husbands and wives could not serve together. We quit teaching.

3) Our son came home reporting that a child in his Sunday School class was mocked because the child did not know the bible stories that children who have been churched their whole lives know. The teachers did absolutely nothing to stop to mocking, and in the eyes of my son and his friend, seemed to indicate agreement that there was something terribly wrong with the child who didn't know the answer.

4) While planning a church event for young children someone suggested all participants wear matching t-shirts, and that every child be required to purchase one for $10. A woman at the meeting suggested that we provide a scholarship for children who could not afford that, and pointed out that one family in the church had 5 children in the age range of the groups involved. Another woman snapped, "Well, is it our fault that she didn't keep her legs crossed? We shouldn't have to pay for deadbeats."

5) I have a very shy child. When he was young he was very uncomfortable in new situations. He had always attended church with his best friend. The friend is just a few months older than my child. When a new children's minister took over they changed the "age division" for kids, and this would have split my son and his friend. The department director, and the teachers, suggested to our families that we decide which department to put the boys in and let them stay together. The new children's minister told us that if we didn't comply with the new age division we shouldn't come back. That was the last Sunday my son attended that Sunday school.

6) I walked into the nursery area one Sunday night to see a young black woman being berated by an older white woman who was telling her that if she didn't "get the right kind of diapers" she couldn't come back. (She used cloth diapers because of an allergy her child had.)

I reported all of this to the Senior Pastor, who was new, found out nothing was going to be done, and my children told me that they had come to hate church because it was "mean" now.

We changed churches.

Ya know Texas....it sounds like the tares moved into your congregation and dismissed the wheat. Hope you found a new home...it gets harder every time I try.

[Qidron]

Just hada share this..

Pro 16:17 The highway of decent people turns away from evil. Whoever watches his way preserves his own life.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Wow you are all so articulate ... I don't think I could even begin to put into words all the insane things that have been done to me or that I've had to endure in churches -- or even, truth be told, from God's supposed people on forums like these (no offense & hopefully present company will exclude themselves).

I church hop -- makes it easier -- because there simply is no such thing as a "church home" for me. Anywhere. Ever. I've given up on finding it.

[heatherer5]

my husband and i met online. to make a long story short, he moved to be near me and we started attending the same church - a church i had been going to for a few years already.

the people there seemed genuine and nice, friendly people - especially the pastor. he loved to joke and have fun.

when my husband started attending the church with me, of course he got some stares and such because of the way he looked. long hair, one earring in his ear (he doesn't wear that anymore). not too many people talked to us, but we did make a few friends.

we started to get along real well with the pastor and his wife, and we would visit them a few times a week just to talk and keep each other company. there were a couple of times when people started spreding rumors about my husband and the pastor put a stop to them immediately.

cutting out a lot of the garbage, my husband and i became enaged to be married. 4 months before our wedding, a young man of the church who was studying under the pastor to become one himself was killed in a car accident. this threw everyone for a loop, and from what my husband and i saw...the pastor kind of lost himself after this.

anyway....so after the funeral, he really began to change. we grew apart from him and his wife...the wedding plans were still going on and we had sent out the invitations...

it was Easter weekend, oddly enough, one month away from our wedding date, when the pastor called us over to his home. to make a long story short, he "fired" my husband from his volunteer position at the church's radio station, he told us he would not marry us because of rumors flying around about my husband. a few people in the church had him built up to be a drunk and drug addict. the pastor never mentioned God in all of it and never prayed for us. he grew distant from God. there were all kinds of other lies and rumors we heard about.

again, cutting out a lot of the garbage, we were terribly hurt, left the church, were forced to cancel our wedding. it was the same weekend that i lost my Bible (never did find it :( ), my grandmother died and i had to go to her funeral.

hubby and i found a new church to go to temporarily. we asked the pastor to marry us, and we were married in a quickly, thrown-together wedding (not what we planned) 4 months later.

when we moved to a new province, we went to this one church a few times...but we've just stopped going. we have a lot of issues with the way churches are run.

perhaps one day God will lead us to a new church that is right for us. however, because of all that mess at our former church....we have grown a lot in our relationship with the Lord. we are stronger now than ever and a lot wiser.

~ Erika

[FellowshipOfTheMystery]

It wasn't trauma, it was disgust.

If I find a good Reformed/Presbyterian Church in my area I'll attend.

[Kinikia]

After we left our church of over 7 years, we searched for another church. My husband and I were afraid of being "lone rangers". We were taught that if you weren't "plugged in" to a body (they meant, their church) that it was only a matter of time before you became "shipwrecked"--that is you would be decieved by Satan and walk away from your faith and make a disaster of your "walk". (hmmm, bible tells me that Jesus is the author, begininer and finisher of our faith).

So we visited another church. It was more insane. To make a long story short, the Pastor was "told by God" to return home to California. (we live in Connecticut) He put out an "ad" for other pastors in training for this denomination. Another couple from the south answered this ad. The current pastor announced to the church (while introducing them for the first time) that they were going to return to California after they sold their house. They announced that this new couple was sent to us by God to now take this church.

After only a few months, maybe 3; the new pastor and his wife went behind the current pastors' back to their old leadership--long story short--they manipulated the current pastor out of his position. So we are in this church, maybe for only a month and watch the current pastor tell his congregation that he was asked to step down by leadership of the denomination. The church is in tears, splits in front of our very eyes. Most go with the old pastor--2 or 3 families go with the new. (one family actually attended bible studies with both churches).

The old pastor is now "told by God" that he is not to go to California. That in fact God told him to do all of this to "expose the new pastor and his wife" for their evil intent to fleece God's people.

However, the denomination kept the new pastor and his wife having apparently been trying to "oust" this old pastor for a while.

The new pastor and his wife were extremely sexist and racist. They did not take the time to get to know people from around this area. They built a new group of people up and have been leading this church since September of this year.

A couple that we know who stayed with him just told me this week that last Sunday, the new pastor and his wife have been "told by God" to go to Washinton State. They are closing down the church.

So basically this new pastor and his wife were called by God to come to our state to split a church body???? and then leave a group of people without a "home"???

the old pastor is calling all those people to come join his church, now not affiliated with any denomination.

AND OH YEAH, we went with the old pastor. He lost his job in November. We were told that he was a cabinet maker. We hired him to do our kitchen. He gave us an estimate, was going to be done before christmas, we bought the supplies and paid him most of his money. He has left the job undone, refuses to return our calls and we are stuck. With out money to hire someone else and with cabinets all open, counter half in stalled.....


TRAUMATIC? This was after we left our abusive church.

We bought a "fixer upper" because we believe that we heard from God a long time ago to build a dream that we call Hannah's Haven. It will be a home for foster/adoptive children with special needs. Our home has 6 bedrooms and land around it. We are doing most of the work ourselves, money is tight. We were hoping to be licensed by the fall--now with the kitchen; I guess it is in "God's Hands"--what ever that means, I don't know anymore.

I am tired of people doing things that are dysfunctional, hurtful, spiteful all in His name. I am becoming to believe that this very thing; this division amonst His people and claiming "He said" is the very abomination at the alter that is spoke of....


and I am doubting that I ever heard from God to build Hannah's Haven....seems like a lot of people think that they "hear from God". Maybe we just all need a little prozac.

This is the fruit in my life of this experience that happened after we left the spiritually abusive church.

Love,

Jane
I have always been faithful in church since I was saved, so when I left the Chicago area to be with my sick brother in the south A good church was at the top of my list of things to do. I found a good church, that is untill my pastor of 5 years died and the members replaced him with a pastor that was just to proud and thought nothing about talking down to really good people. I left after he, from the pulpit bragged about all his last church provided for him and how he broke the law by signing a paper to get his catallac windows tinted darker than they shoud lawfully be. I was gone about 3 months and the news broke that a decon had found porn on his computer, He was sending porn emails to another pastor. I knew then why God had spoke to my heart to leave the church. I have visited many churches since and have come to one conclusion today churches are far from what God desires them to be. I have church at home, He has never failed to meet me here. May God Bless
everyone, Please remember "He will never leave not forsake you" He has proven that to me.

In Christ
Kinikia

[TheAJKMan]

and I am doubting that I ever heard from God to build Hannah's Haven....seems like a lot of people think that they "hear from God". Maybe we just all need a little prozac.

Hisrosebud Doubting is not a bad thing so long as it drives you to your knees before an Almighty GOd who will not only hear your prayers, but answer them. Speak to him and be neither scared, nor shy in asking Him if Hannahs Haven is of HIm or not.

I have church at home, He has never failed to meet me here.

Kinikia Never forget that the scriptures do say that where 2 or more are gathered that He is there. So, don't forsake altogether the gathering of the saints, even if it isn't in the formal sense ;)

Love and peace to all
TheAJKMan

[Qidron]

I just got together with my sons this afternoon. I posted what we learned in another thread, but it's good for Home Churched too...because that's what it is.

Today's Caution


I have a today word to share. It is a word that pertains to my family, but it also pertains to what is going on in the world, and what is coming soon.

Today the Lord prompted me to take my sons aside and caution them about their choice of friends. I used to give my children opportunity to be in the Lord's presence regularly, but we haven't done that in quite a while, and the Lord said...PULL THEM TOGETHER. So I did.

I grabbed my One Year Bible and three other Bibles just so the boys could read for themselves, then I had them get into the car and we went to the park. I had not read the text before hand, so I didn't know what was there. I wasn't sure where to stop in the park, but we all agreed on the waterfall area...we used to go to often.

While there the section of the Word said EXACTLY what the Lord had been cautioning me about...how because the new generation didn't know Him, and didn't remember His marvelous deeds, they became friends with pagans around them and began to worship their false gods. Well this angered God tremendously....why? Because they broke off from LIFE when they broke away from God.

AS the boys were reading, I looked up at the waterfall. It was crashing down and it was so beautiful. I love waterfalls. But then my eyes were drawn to the smooth, mirrorlike water just before the fall. If you had been riding on this river for a long time, by the time you started to approach the fall, if you couldn't see it coming, you would assume that the REST of the journey was going to be just as still, gentle, smooth and almost boring as it had been from the onset. But the truth is that the waterfall is just a moment away. A SUDDENLY is about to take place.

Like the commercial says "Life comes at you fast."

Be prepared, be filled with Him, He is the fountain of Life within welling up to bless those around us. OR He is the crashing waterfall that you were not expecting.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Damn pagans,always stepping on the trees i'm trying to bless with mead.,

[alienDNA]

Unchurched, I assume, means not going to church but Believing in God with all of your heart? I do not go to church. What is Home Churched? I would like to know. There are MANY reasons why I do not Attend church.

[New_Wineskin]

Unchurched, I assume, means not going to church but Believing in God with all of your heart? I do not go to church. What is Home Churched? I would like to know. There are MANY reasons why I do not Attend church.

http://www.jimlilly.com/theproject


I am with you .

I only wanted to say that you don't need a reason . One only *needs* a reason to not do something if that something is a requirement . "attending" or "going to" church is not a requirement . You do not need a reason for not doing so .

[Catechumen]

Exactly! The burden of proof is on those who feel that church attendance is necessary.

[Qidron]

We stopped going to our "church" about 6 years ago. We were labled troublemakers...whatever...and then we started worshipping at another fellowship. That was good for a few years but we never fit...and we left.

I'm wondering about the scripture that warns us not to forsake the gathering together of believers. I know that we receive from one another right here at home, but we don't have anyone else to worship with. And it is far too easy to simply slide away from worship or study and sharing with one another when it's just our family. One of our sons leads worship at an IHOP but worship rarely takes place here. And frankly no one wants to GO to church anymore...I mean like we do, but we don't. I don't even understand this. But I know that I need more than just us. My ear is open for His direction. My husband doesn't seem interested. I'm just about to go to a Sunday service again by myself. I wouldn't have a problem with it. I've already been through just about every negative thing that could happen, so like what've I got to lose except pride and I don't need that anyway. I don't know...maybe I will, maybe not.

[alienDNA]

I am with you .

I only wanted to say that you don't need a reason . One only *needs* a reason to not do something if that something is a requirement . "attending" or "going to" church is not a requirement . You do not need a reason for not doing so .
[COLOR=Red][B]I understand completely! You are so right. People needs reasons for EVERYTHING!

[New_Wineskin]

Exactly! The burden of proof is on those who feel that church attendance is necessary.

Yes . And , they would need to show that they *know* that the Lord told *me* that it was necessary . All they have is doctrine . They have no proof .

[Qidron]

Exactly! The burden of proof is on those who feel that church attendance is necessary.

Yes . And , they would need to show that they *know* that the Lord told *me* that it was necessary . All they have is doctrine . They have no proof .

I'm having a problem with these statements.

Heb 10:24 Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.
Heb 10:25 Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.

If this is doctrind it is the Lord's doctrine, not man's.

I recognize that we are each one of us the church, and that in a gathering of two the Lord is most certainly with us. I also recognize a need for assembling together. More than just two is what is encouraged in this portion of scripture. What kind of proof do you need?

[lismore]

Heb 10:25 Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.

If this is doctrind it is the Lord's doctrine, not man's.

I recognize that we are each one of us the church, and that in a gathering of two the Lord is most certainly with us. I also recognize a need for assembling together. More than just two is what is encouraged in this portion of scripture. What kind of proof do you need?

:wave:

That scripture is often mis-used. But remember the bible was talking about believers meeting together in houses anyway. Jesus gave the criteria as two or more meeting together in my name. Are we not meeting here in Jesus name?

Going to a church building and coming 'under' the 'authority' of a priest or vicar is not meeting together. Its meeting 'under'.

:)

[Qidron]

I don't care WHERE we meet. A house if fine. I have no intention of coming under the AUTHORITY of a priest...WE ARE the priests. (and maybe that's why I'm not received well in the more formal congregations...) My point is that while two may be great for intercession, it is not an assembly. We neeeeed to gather together, and that's what that scripture encourages us to do. I posted that our little family is not going to survive without some sort of gathering with others...and right now that just ain't happening. I've got to do something.

[Qidron]

"Meeting here" as in this forum...is that what you mean? Well yeah, this is why I come here...it is my fellowship...it isn't enough.

[lismore]

"Meeting here" as in this forum...is that what you mean? Well yeah, this is why I come here...it is my fellowship...it isn't enough.

Well as a wise man once said, The Lord is enough. Meeting with believers, any other believers is a great bonus:thumbsup: but if it comes down to just you and the Lord, you are in the same boat as Ezekiel, Elijah, Moses, even Jesus.

Unity is not about quantity but quality. Not the quantitiy of persons but the quality of relationship:thumbsup: and every season has a reason!

[Qidron]

I've been in this season for 6 years. I understand to wait on the Lord. I am blessed continually. God is amazing. I also understand that the scripture is clear that we are not to forsake the assembling together and I don't understand why that is being brushed over here.

[New_Wineskin]

I'm having a problem with these statements.

Heb 10:24 Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.
Heb 10:25 Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.

If this is doctrind it is the Lord's doctrine, not man's.


I understand your doctrine and write the following with all due respect . These are my thoughts when I read/hear that doctrine :

Actually , that is your interpretation of that passage , not the Lord's doctrine . The quoting of that passage in such a way throws out one of the major themes of that writing of "Hebrews" . It is really amazing that people do such . The author has already dismissed that way of interpreting that passage . That interpretation also contradicts much of Paul's writings about righteousness based on works of the law .


I recognize that we are each one of us the church, and that in a gathering of two the Lord is most certainly with us. I also recognize a need for assembling together. More than just two is what is encouraged in this portion of scripture. What kind of proof do you need?

There is no mention of "two" in that passage . And , as those who quote a certain passage for their "go to church" doctrine ... "two or three come together in my name" - *not* "two or more" . Now , if two or more is fine , so is three or less .

The proof *I* need is the Lord telling me . I am a part of the New Covenant - the way of the Spirit and not the way of the written code . The Scriptures also state that one should put to death those who break the Sabbath as the Sabbath is to be celebrated according to the Scriptures . How many of those that quote the passage in the book called "Hebrews" obey *that* passage concerning the Sabbath ? If they allow themselves any reason to disobey a single command from the Scriptures , they have no right to throw any other supposed "command" in any other's face as if they should obey .

How about proof that the way that people currently "meet" is the way that the author of Hebrews is writing about ? How about proof in saying what exactly is the auther saying is the way they are giving up meeting together ? How about the *fact* that many people will pass by other groups on their way to a meeting ? *That* is forsaking the asssembly for the sake of the others . If there is not an intent to assemble with all in their area equally , there is a forsaking of the assembly .

There is much hypocracy in using that passage . The whole idea of being committed to a singular group is by definition forsaking those not in the group . How about outlining how to exactly fulfill that passage ? How often should one be meeting one another to obtain righteousness ? What consists of a meeting in order to not earn the fires of Hell ? What is the exact criteria of meeting is the author proposing ? If it is a Law , then those questions would be easily answered .

Look at the Lord ... He went out in the desert for 40 days . How's *that* for giving up meeting together ?

[New_Wineskin]

I don't care WHERE we meet. A house if fine. I have no intention of coming under the AUTHORITY of a priest...WE ARE the priests. (and maybe that's why I'm not received well in the more formal congregations...) My point is that while two may be great for intercession, it is not an assembly. We neeeeed to gather together, and that's what that scripture encourages us to do. I posted that our little family is not going to survive without some sort of gathering with others...and right now that just ain't happening. I've got to do something.

Of course , if *you* need to do such and such , may the Lord be with you . However , *your* needing to do such doesn't mean that *I* or anyone else *needs* to do it . Again , I do desire that your needs are met . :)

[Qidron]

Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...

So simple.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...

So simple.

Agreed.

Lets do it without the leaders, the jargan, the preach, the tithes and the "meeting".

Lets just meet, beit home, the pub, the shops....

[Qidron]

agreed....wait... how do you meet without a meeting?

I don't know how to start. Perhaps it's because I don't have enough going on with the Lord to actually share a psalm or spiritual song...I could share the things he says to me. Don't always have fresh manna tho.

[New_Wineskin]

Let us not give up the habit of meeting together...

So simple.

as some are doing ...

Not as simple .

How were they doing it ? How were they meeting together ? If not done correctly , one is damned for disobeying the command .

How long for a meeting ? How often ? How many ? Where ? When ? How ? A command must be specific enough or there are consequences .

As is , I could have the habit of saying "hi" to the neighbors down the street once every 5 years . Three seconds of time with a couple of people every five years . That is a habit of meeting together . The author does not give anything specific enough to say that it would be too much or not enough . The Law kills .

[Qidron]

as some are doing ...

Not as simple .

How were they doing it ? How were they meeting together ? If not done correctly , one is damned for disobeying the command .

How long for a meeting ? How often ? How many ? Where ? When ? How ? A command must be specific enough or there are consequences .

Your dispute is with the scripture then....that's not my problem. The encouragement to meet is there and I want to move with it because I need to. I do feel stuck because I don't know how to proceed. It's evident to me that the Lord has a plan, I just wish I could understand it so that I could move in it. That's my problem, and I was hoping someone here could help me with that.

[New_Wineskin]

Your dispute is with the scripture then....that's not my problem.


Incorrect . My dispute is with your interpretation and with your placing a law on me attempting to make it a problem for me .


The encouragement to meet is there and I want to move with it because I need to. I do feel stuck because I don't know how to proceed. It's evident to me that the Lord has a plan, I just wish I could understand it so that I could move in it. That's my problem, and I was hoping someone here could help me with that.

Ah . That is great . Yet , you claim that *we* have a need - which is incorrect ..

You have a need and I can understand that . May the Lord supply that need . I have no problem with anything like that .

[Qidron]

Incorrect . My dispute is with your interpretation and with your placing a law on me attempting to make it a problem for me .



Ah . That is great . Yet , you claim that *we* have a need - which is incorrect ..

You have a need and I can understand that . May the Lord supply that need . I have no problem with anything like that .

I don't see a law here in the first place...and I am NOT trying to put anything on you at all. I posted seriously hoping to understand how to accomplish this assembling together. You do what you like. You don't have to try and answer something you don't have an answer to.

So you don't have a problem with anything. OK fine.

[ChamomileFriend]

I did leave the church due to a traumatic experience when I was 14, I don't even know if I can post what happened as it might violate the "appropriate" topics for the forum, so I will just leave it at that.

I DO want to meet with other Christians,but am wary of churches. It has been over 10 years and I have only found one other chruch I liked since then, but I don't live anywhere near it anymore. Hopefully I will find a new meeting place soon.

[Qidron]

I did leave the church due to a traumatic experience when I was 14, I don't even know if I can post what happened as it might violate the "appropriate" topics for the forum, so I will just leave it at that.

I DO want to meet with other Christians,but am wary of churches. It has been over 10 years and I have only found one other chruch I liked since then, but I don't live anywhere near it anymore. Hopefully I will find a new meeting place soon.

I'm not wary of "churches". It's just a fact, there are pitfalls everywhere. I totally expect this. No place is safe. I also know how much I need to focus in on Christ in each professing Christian I meet. Overlooking the offenses that are sure to come. I hope you find a meeting place soon too. Praying with you on this.

[Rick Otto]

the phrase of interest is,"meet w/other Christians".
What does that mean? is my question.
Not to be facetious, just wondering...
what do you expect, require, & hope for in such a meeting?
I don't mean to be implying anything, I am just curious.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Fook the "meeting place".

Go be in community.

[Qidron]

I don't know what Cham's needing...but I need encouragement and support IN CHRIST. Whatever "go be in community" means...I ain't gotta clue. Like just go shopping somewhere? Fook that.

[Rick Otto]

you create it.
Consider you've been given all you need to start.

When I worked days, 5 min. before quittin' time on Friday afternoons, I would sing out full throated Gospel/Bluesy," Free do-o-om,... Freedo-om!!" and then boom out,"LET MY PEOPLE GO!!"

You can use humor to create context for discussion of spiritual topics (if the you sense the possibility exists).

[TheAJKMan]

you create it.
Consider you've been given all you need to start.

You can use humor to create context for discussion of spiritual topics (if the you sense the possibility exists).

Another thought or two on this note is to be sensitive not only to the people with whom you are in any given situation, but espcially to the Spirit. For He is the one who leads and guides us. Humour is great for crossing great divides.

TheAJKMan

[Rick Otto]

it can insulate us from a hostile environment, too.
When you find common ground you can commiserate on(for instance), it can make discussing other more important & perhaps more personal topics & issues easier.
It doesn't usualy take to long to figure out who's here ~"in His name"... and go from there.

[Qidron]

...and I can do that at home with my children, and my husband. So perhaps we are not supposed to get together with anyone else. Right. Thanks for the help.

[Rick Otto]

^_^
Approximately how many people do you want to gather with for approximately how long, and approximately when are you available to do that, and what do you want to happen?
Got a clue? Or do you just have this amiguous craving?:)

I wish MY wife & kid would laugh at MY jokes!
Find a larger venue, you're a hit so far.

[Qidron]

Well, honestly, I was just hoping that someone with this home or unchurched philosophy could share what they do instead of me figuring out what I WANT to do. I do believe the way the Lord is leading me currently is simply to get the fam together and feed them. Food and conversation and see how He directs. Sounds almost too easy, yet I think that's how He's leading. Like tonight, one of the kids decided we were going to have a cook out...and came over and got it going and another son "just showed up" something he never does...so I'ma go out there and see what the Lord's doing. Sorry I was crabby. I felt like youse guys were just being snobby because you don't understand the need for Christians to gather together. Later.

[Rick Otto]

'Salright.
Sounds like you got the idea.
Don't discount the spontaneous. When we appreciate it for the opportunity it is, maybe we won't need & expect so much from the pulpit, or any other part of the bricks & mortar.
I play piano & guitar. That's one thing I do.
Sometimes it leads to spiritual conversation.
Smetimes it's just fun. Sometimes both.
I got plenty of stories, but I don't want to sound like I've just created another box for God called "spontenaity".
It's more like having a "ready" attitude & stayin' alert for a good lead.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Whatever "go be in community" means...I ain't gotta clue. Like just go shopping somewhere? Fook that.

lol. nice response.

well, we walk thru our local shops regularly - having kids at school and the need to buy bread, milk and comics - so i gotta few community-type shops we hang out in and chat.

pop in on mates, help em out, just chat, wtvr.

go to m8s gigs, get to know there groupies and so on over curry after

down the pub, gettin to know th landlord and staff and locals by now

on messenger/email, arranging sometimes even to pray down the beach or some other logical place - the graveyard is always empty around these parts!

we started by talking with people and doing what they do, pretty soon we have ourselves a wide, odd church of people - some christian, some not - who all know of each other, and some of us even meet enmasse - for a curry or party - for more "churchy" stuff like bible discussion and prayer and stuff we tend to just invite christians - or those close enuf not to feel excluded - and meet in appropriate places - homes, graveyard, beach, cafes, upper rooms, footy pitches....

is that any help?

[Qidron]

lol. nice response.

well, we walk thru our local shops regularly - having kids at school and the need to buy bread, milk and comics - so i gotta few community-type shops we hang out in and chat.

pop in on mates, help em out, just chat, wtvr.

go to m8s gigs, get to know there groupies and so on over curry after

down the pub, gettin to know th landlord and staff and locals by now

on messenger/email, arranging sometimes even to pray down the beach or some other logical place - the graveyard is always empty around these parts!

we started by talking with people and doing what they do, pretty soon we have ourselves a wide, odd church of people - some christian, some not - who all know of each other, and some of us even meet enmasse - for a curry or party - for more "churchy" stuff like bible discussion and prayer and stuff we tend to just invite christians - or those close enuf not to feel excluded - and meet in appropriate places - homes, graveyard, beach, cafes, upper rooms, footy pitches....

is that any help?

Yes, actually, thanks.

I tend to be very slow about moving out of myself and into relationships...and the burn of some relationships has been so devastating to me that being away from where I had ordinarily gotten Godly encouragement has forced me closer to the Lord. Can't complain about that. But I still don't mix well enough to begin new relationships. Oh well...that's my problem I guess. I will keep my ears and eyes open to His promptings. Thanks again.

[She]

Does anyone know where I may find a support group for people who have been damaged by the RC Church?

[Qidron]

...I don't know any groups, but I will pray with/for you.
I was Catholic ...long time ago. Our whole family.
We grieved when we left but HAD TO GO.
God's grace and blessings be you while you pray for the heart to forgive. It hurts, I know.

[She]

...I don't know any groups, but I will pray with/for you.
I was Catholic ...long time ago. Our whole family.
We grieved when we left but HAD TO GO.
God's grace and blessings be you while you pray for the heart to forgive. It hurts, I know.

Thank you. It helps to know that someone else has been through what I am going through.
:)

[Qidron]

Thank you. It helps to know that someone else has been through what I am going through.
:)

Well, I don't know what you are going through specifically, but there are people in every area of Christianity that are doing ungodly things. Things that the Lord would never have done. So...GOD BLESS YOU TONIGHT! And if you need to talk...or if you want to Private Message me..feel free.:)

[TheAJKMan]

Well, I don't know what you are going through specifically, but there are people in every area of Christianity that are doing ungodly things. Things that the Lord would never have done. So...GOD BLESS YOU TONIGHT! And if you need to talk...or if you want to Private Message me..feel free.:)

Qidron, very true words spoken there. ANd it makes me so sad seeing such behaviour by those who should know better. *sigh* :(

My wife has also been badly hurt by the church, and this by people who were supposed to be helping her. She now will no longer set foot in the church, so my heart goes out to you "She" and will keep you and yours in my thoughts and prayers.

TheAJKMan

[She]

Qidron, very true words spoken there. ANd it makes me so sad seeing such behaviour by those who should know better. *sigh* :(

My wife has also been badly hurt by the church, and this by people who were supposed to be helping her. She now will no longer set foot in the church, so my heart goes out to you "She" and will keep you and yours in my thoughts and prayers.

TheAJKMan

Thank you. :)

[Qidron]

My heart goes out to your wife AJKman. And you too SHE...there are MANY who are enduring this kind of attack...but why God allows this and what He is doing in this will blow your mind at the end.

I'm going to share what He's been teaching me for many years...I am soooo slow....and He is soooo patient. :D

If we are truly deciples of Christ, what did we expect? We thought that we'd excape the cross when He very clearly said "Take up your cross and FOLLOW ME" ??

When Christ was crucified, it wasn't for what he did wrong...it was for what He did right. The people who have chosen to crucify us, aren't doing it because we did something wrong. Are you getting this? Sure we are in a continual state of correction by the Holy Spirit that dwells within...that's a godly and wonderful given. That's not what this is about though, is it.

When we enter into the sufferings of Christ..and you know if you have...it is FOR those who have chosen to destroy us. They have a problem...they don't know what they are doing...so we pray for the Lord to forgive them and set them free from the prison they are in. We can actually forgive them...all the while realizing that what they did was wrong...don't confuse that...and we can move forward in Him. We ARE FREE. It hurts for a while...till God gets the infection out :) I was in broken heart pain for 6 years. Still get twinges. But hang in there The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand...take hold and accept the healing that goes along with it. KEEP ON DELIBERATELY FORGIVING. EVEN THO IT IS STILL TAKING PLACE. LORD, LORD, LORD, HELP US GET THIS.

Just don't throw out the Baby with the bathwater!

Blessings and love to you who are being crucified with Christ...this is a GOOD thing!

I really hope Mrs. AJKman is on CF and will talk with us.

[Rick Otto]

Forgiveness is our spiritual survival tool.
Never leave home without it.

[Qidron]

Forgiveness is our spiritual survival tool.
Never leave home without it.

Amen and AMEN brother

[lismore]

Does anyone know where I may find a support group for people who have been damaged by the RC Church?

Hi:wave:

my family left the RC church when I was young. With any system that uses works as a part of salvation its difficult to get away from the mindset of having to do good works to be acceptable to God and the terrible fear of failure and condemnation it can bring.

The thing that works well to get around this is God's love:


Jeremiah 31:3 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 31:3&niv=yes)
"I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with loving-kindness.

God loves you forever, he will draw you to himself and comfort you and give you peace. Salvation is his wonderful gift:

Ephesians 2:8 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Ephesians 2:8&niv=yes)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

No amount of good works can make him accept you any more and no mistakes can make him shut the door.

:wave:

[New_Wineskin]

Well, honestly, I was just hoping that someone with this home or unchurched philosophy could share what they do instead of me figuring out what I WANT to do.


If we were to do that , we would be doing nothing different than the institutionalized groups . The New Covenant is about learning from the Lord as to what He desires through our relationship with Him .



I do believe the way the Lord is leading me currently is simply to get the fam together and feed them. Food and conversation and see how He directs. Sounds almost too easy, yet I think that's how He's leading. Like tonight, one of the kids decided we were going to have a cook out...and came over and got it going and another son "just showed up" something he never does...so I'ma go out there and see what the Lord's doing. Sorry I was crabby. I felt like youse guys were just being snobby because you don't understand the need for Christians to gather together. Later.

That is fantastic !! :)

[Qidron]

yep yep yep

[ConstantlySearching]

For me, it's just my Social Anxiety that keeps me from attending church. I have a huge fear of people judging me, though I do know that that's a sin, but everyone sins, so there's no way to escape their judging. So I just stay at home and worship on my own. It's the more comfortable option for me right now, and I know that God will let me know when He wants me to start attending church.

[Qidron]

Yes Hannah, people will ALWAYS be about the NOT-THEIR-BUSINESS of judging us...but GOD IS OUR JUDGE. So, I pray with you, that you will turn all of those fears about what people might be thinking to the Lord, and that He gives you the ability to LET IT GO.

Many have actually been falsely accused and have been strengthened thru the ordeal...God is amazing like that. He is about the business of building an army of those who are crucified with Christ...making a way of salvation & deliverance for those foolish judgmental ones who don't know what they do.... Welcome :wave: and God bless you this day.

[TheAJKMan]

Many have actually been falsely accused and have been strengthened thru the ordeal...God is amazing like that. He is about the business of building an army

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Being in an army is by no means easy, nor is it for the weak. Tough times make tough people, capabale of great warfare.... are you game? That being said, it is never an easy thing having to go through those tough times, but if you keep your eyes both on Christ, and on the other side of the ordeal, you will find hope and strength to endure :)

Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Hope this helps some :)

TheAJKMan

[tigercub]

For me, it's just my Social Anxiety that keeps me from attending church. I have a huge fear of people judging me, though I do know that that's a sin, but everyone sins, so there's no way to escape their judging. So I just stay at home and worship on my own. It's the more comfortable option for me right now, and I know that God will let me know when He wants me to start attending church.

I hear ya :(

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Totally.

This is the reason that most people don't do church;)

I don't blame 'em/us/me/you!!!!

[tigercub]

My dilemma is this;

Is it ok to feel like that, or should we be making a huge effort to find a fellowship?I feel kinda guilty for having been out of church so long. :help:

[Qidron]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Being in an army is by no means easy, nor is it for the weak. Tough times make tough people, capabale of great warfare.... are you game? That being said, it is never an easy thing having to go through those tough times, but if you keep your eyes both on Christ, and on the other side of the ordeal, you will find hope and strength to endure :)

Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

Hope this helps some :)

TheAJKMan

Amen and thanks for the encouragement and a great word for all of us who truly do follow Christ.

BTW, I love your country's flag. :)

[Qidron]

My dilemma is this;

Is it ok to feel like that, or should we be making a huge effort to find a fellowship?I feel kinda guilty for having been out of church so long. :help:

PERSONALLY, my huge effort will continue to be in getting into His presence...so I can hear Him....and I can absorb the grace to do whatever it is He just revealed as THE WAY for me at this moment.

The Word says not to forsake gathering together with brothers and sisters in Christ....so as I am led....I will go wherever I am led. CURRENTLY I am led to feed my family. We have 13 children, half are grown and away from home. Our house has always been too small...but it's summer now and we can do cookouts. THAT'S OUR GATHERING at this time. As He leads, I will gladly move in HIS direction.

Do you have no Christian fellowship at all?

ASK HIM if this guilt you say you feel is at all from Him. Find out what He's saying for you for now.

[TheAJKMan]

My dilemma is this;

Is it ok to feel like that, or should we be making a huge effort to find a fellowship?I feel kinda guilty for having been out of church so long. :help:

I'll se your question and raise you another ;) *ng*

Okay, seriously though, do you "feel led" to be seeking a specific fellowship, or do you have peace in your spirit about where you're at at the moment. Is your concern a manmade one, or the urging of Gods Spirit for you to be back in fellowship. That may be a better course of enquiry for you at this time.

:blush:Qidron, many thanks for those kind words. I do try to lift up and encourage anyone I come across whenever I am able to do so :)

TheAJKMan

[tigercub]

Is your concern a manmade one, or the urging of Gods Spirit for you to be back in fellowship.

The million dollar question...:sigh:

[Qidron]

The million dollar question...:sigh:

lol, and some time with Him concerning the issue will be worth more than a million bucks to you. Our prayers are with you....and do share.

[FLA2760]

Have already heard something about the G12. Tricia Tillin of Banner Ministries has a testimony on her site of someone who had a bad experience with it. She is of the opinion that it cannot benefit anyone, and from what I have heard so far, I think she is right. Some people need counseling after leaving the G12 program because it uses some methods that cults do to manipulate people and has some of the same effects on the psyche as a cult environment can have.
Government of 12? I thought we had one head Christ; and we are all members of His Body. The ministry gifts of Ephesians 4 : 11, 12 are intended to edify (build up) the Body of Christ. My yoke is easy, my burden is light.
God Bless

[FLA2760]

Reading all this stuff is heartwrenching to me. We didn't have the Government 12 but we had layers of leadership; homegroups; discipling---it was almost identicle.

We really need to pray for the condition of the bride- she has been raped, robbed, lied to and left to fend for herself. It's got to grieve the Lord.

Jane
Hi Jane
I agree; the Bride of Christ has suffered at the hands of many hirelings. Jesus himself warned of greivious wolves that would come in not sparing the flock. Prasie God that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
God Bless

[TheAJKMan]

The million dollar question...:sigh:

HEeh tigercub, don't worry too much about it. Just leave the whole situation prayerfully at the foot of the cross in GOds caapable hands and await his perfect reply. I've been in that kinda situation many more times than I'd care to admit and will be there many more times. The trickk is to pray and seek GOd's guidance and then do the best you can. Don't get stuck in inaction, do something. A moving vehicle is easier to steer than one standing still. Even if the vehicle is moving in the wrong direction. An illustration I once heard in a sermon and have found appropriate on more than one occasion. :)

TheAJKMAn

[kiwimac]

I remember as a young Christian an elder at the church I attended telling me not to mix with his son as I was a widow's son and far too poor.

Kiwimac

[Qidron]

I remember as a young Christian an elder at the church I attended telling me not to mix with his son as I was a widow's son and far too poor.

Kiwimac

I imagine that was quite traumatic...until you figured out that the man, nor his words had ANYTHING to do with Christ.

Those situations divide the goats from the sheep. :) And the sheep grow stronger through them. God bless you.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I remember as a young Christian an elder at the church I attended telling me not to mix with his son as I was a widow's son and far too poor.


Jesus was a widows sons, and not reknown for being well-to-do. ;)

[kiwimac]

Ah yes but I was 12 or 13 at the time and not really as swift with the come-back as I am today.

Kiwimac

[TheAJKMan]

Ah yes but I was 12 or 13 at the time and not really as swift with the come-back as I am today.

Kiwimac

*sigh* one of the seemingly few advantages of growing older ;P

TheAJKMan

[Qidron]

*sigh* one of the seemingly few advantages of growing older ;P

TheAJKMan

True :), MY naivity to believe in people continued on into my adult...old adult... years. The hits I'd taken as a child came from outside the "family of God"...so when I came full force to Him THROUGH the church...I thought I'd reached safe ground. HA! So even as an adult we have to learn to TRUST GOD....and LOVE PEOPLE. And when the horrors hit coming from those we wrongfully put expectations on and mistakenly trusted...we have to cling to HIM and find where safe ground reallly is. WE've all got to learn it. Jesus didn't trust in men...he trusted in his Father and he loved mankind right to his death...proving his love for us. And he told us to do likewise. Our stand is for the truth...and for the love of the many He puts before us.

[LJSGM]

I don't think that my ideals toward home churches or being unchurch came through bitterness.

I had joined this church in college that was wonderful as far as fellowship went. I had true friendship there, I really miss it. I felt that they were closer to what kind of church God wanted us to be. The only problem was that they were very legalistic. They were connected to what a lot of people consider a cult. I didn't feel like personally I had to leave because of it, for I was legalising myself through their words and deeds. It was the Lord that told me that it was time to move on. Of course I met my husband shortly after I left and I couldn't ever feel any satisfaction anymore in the traditional church building or churchianity because I had experienced something more. I saw clearly how off the church was today, and ever since then I've been following the Lord. The only problem is that I feel like I'm in the desert now, with no way out. But I have decided to never blind myself to the truth because of my struggles. Never to take the easy complacient way, and to never fool myself into believing that there is something there that isn't. I believe God is faithful and I will not go ahead of him or his commands.

[Redneck Crow]

I mainly felt empty and frustrated while attending organized "church." Like something was missing. And it was!

I quit attending organized "church" because I became a Christian, and became part of the real church, the Body of Christ, as opposed to being part of an assembly which is much concerned with building funds and Vacation Bible School and Easter pagents and less concerned with fostering real growth in knowledge and understanding of God.

One of my own personal beliefs doesn't sit well with many members of organized "churches." You see, I believe that denominations are not something that God desires and that He intends for there to be one church, the entirety of the Body of Christ. I don't believe that God sees us as Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Episcopalians, or Whateverians.

I believe He sees all who have put their faith in Christ to be their savior as His. And those who have not as lost.

You might say that I'm post-denominational. And nope, that's not a new denomination. :D It's my freedom to fellowship with and learn from all members of the Body of Christ regardless of what denomination they may or not affiliate themselves with. It didn't come from any assembly or building or statement of faith. It's the freedom I have found in Jesus Christ.

[TheAJKMan]

So even as an adult we have to learn to TRUST GOD....and LOVE PEOPLE. And when the horrors hit coming from those we wrongfully put expectations on and mistakenly trusted...we have to cling to HIM and find where safe ground reallly is. WE've all got to learn it. Jesus didn't trust in men...he trusted in his Father and he loved mankind right to his death...proving his love for us. And he told us to do likewise. Our stand is for the truth...and for the love of the many He puts before us.

And therein lies some of my current quandry. Finding that safe ground, and ..... *sigh*..... lovng people. THat one aint always so easy.:blush: Well, guess I've still gotta a whole lotta growing to do ;)

TheAJKMan

[genestealerbroodlord]

I was a member of a church, but due to a mistake i made i was excomunicated.

Im alittle nervous of churches now as i always believed that if you repent you are forgiven, instead i was abandened and told i was worthless(in a nice way).

I would love to be part of a church again but find it hard to put church and God together and if i have to make the choice; i will choose God every time.

[Qidron]

I would love to be part of a church again but find it hard to put church and God together and if i have to make the choice; i will choose God every time.

Hi, that's a good way to put it....and I agree. The word I keep getting from the Lord is to remain at rest where I am and not to try to make things start to happen. When it is time to DO something, He will put it clearly in the "doer" part of my heart.

Thank you very much for sharing.

[TheAJKMan]

When it is time to DO something, He will put it clearly in the "doer" part of my heart.

I agree with Qidron on this, but would also urge you to keep that heart of yours open and tender to the things of GOd, in spite of His wayward sheep. And some of us are more wayward than others ;)P

TheAJKMan

[Qidron]

I agree with Qidron on this, but would also urge you to keep that heart of yours open and tender to the things of GOd, in spite of His wayward sheep. And some of us are more wayward than others ;)P

TheAJKMan

yeah, agreed. The Lord has been showing me MY wayward ways lately. Argh. Ever see the movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas? At the end when he is caught he says with great sadness and revelation "I'M the bad guy?" :sigh:

[TheAJKMan]

Qidron, our lives are a journey which we'll hopefully get better at as we proceed. Otherwise we may find ourselves wondering around in cirlces for 40 years or so ;)

TheAJKMan