Invitation to Lutheran Section for Debate on Icons

[MORTANIUS]

Hello. I wish to invite those who are interested in discussing a very sensitive and serious issue about Icons.

I wish to learn more about the arguments of those in favour of Icons. Not only as a challenge to your beliefs, but to my own as an excercise in understanding what it is we know about various traditions such as icons.

Thank you and God Bless.

[minasoliman]

I thought Lutherans were fine with icons.

And there should be no problem debating it. Having icons is Biblical. God told Moses to carve Cherubim in the temple a couple of chapters after God told him not to make any carvings.

There's really not much to debate about. It's common sense. Don't carve something you'll worship.

God bless.

[erinipassi]

Hi Mortanius,

This is a friendly warning. The Coptic Orthodox Forum is not a forum for debate so that a non-Oriental Orthodox can put down our faith and practices. It is a Forum where you can ask genuine questions to find answers. Please read the Coptic Orthodox Forum Rules. It is very important when discussing an issue, to respect the Coptic Orthodox Forum’s beliefs. Treat other Churches the way you would like your own Church and yourself to be treated. Remember how offensive and insulting it is for non-Lutherans to enter a Lutheran Forum and to start put down Lutheran beliefs. You have the right to believe whatever you like, but while you are in a Coptic Orthodox Forum, please be respectful to all our beliefs as you are our honoured guest and in all discussions this respect must be mutual.

If you would like more information about the way we view Icons and the saints, I’ve already posted two websites in your previous thread, which I will post again:

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/misclecture5.pdf (http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/misclecture5.pdf)

http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/misclecture6.pdf (http://www.suscopts.org/messages/lectures/misclecture6.pdf)

I will post an extract from the above website for those who like to understand about it:

“God instructed Moses the Prophet to make a fiery serpent and put it on a pole (Num 21:8) for the people to look at and be healed from the snakebites. Also, our Lord referred to this serpent on the pole and considered it a symbol of His death on the cross (Jn 3:14) – Now when Moses the Prophet made this carved image of the serpent it was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.

· God instructed Moses the prophet to make two cherubim of gold at the two ends of the mercy seat (Ex 25:18) – This also was not considered breaking the Second Commandment.

· It was written about King Solomon, “Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around … with carved images of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers … The two doors were of olive wood; and he carved on them figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold”(1 King 6:29-31).

· It was written, “Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell on earth on his face before the ark of the Lord until evening” (Josh 7:6). – Nobody ever suggested that Joshua the Prophet worshipped the Ark of the Covenant.

· Likewise, King David’s veneration of the Ark (2 Sam 6:12-15) was never viewed as idolatry. In fact, Michal who criticized her husband for belittling himself by dancing in front of the Ark was punished by the Lord (2 Sam 6:23).

Worship is reserved to the Holy Trinity alone. We do not honor the material from which icons are manufactured but rather the honor pertains to whatever the icon represent (Lord Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary, The cross, saints etc.).

Icons are commonly called “windows to heaven” for they help our thoughts ascend to God. Just as we are helped by the word to ascend beyond the word, so too we are led by the icons to rise above the icons. Correspondingly, just as God wants our hearing to be made holy through spiritual discourse, so too He wants our sight to be made holy via the holy icons. Iconography dates back to the apostolic era for we read about St. Luke the Evangelist who painted an icon or more for St. Mary.”

So we can conclude, that just like Christian music is a medium which elevates our thoughts to God and meditate on his great works, so also is art or iconography is a medium by which we meditate on God and his work in his Saints.

If the Carvings of the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant was a source blessing because God’s Spirit dwelt in it, so also are icons of saints are a source of blessings since the Spirit of God dwells in all his saints and they are honoured by him as I mentioned to you in the previous thread. “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16) And Jesus said,“If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.” (Jn 12:26) Jesus answered and said to them, ‘You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” (Matt 22: 23-32)


Feel free to ask any questions as long as they are respectful.


Love and blessings
erini :)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Hello. I wish to invite those who are interested in discussing a very sensitive and serious issue about Icons.

I wish to learn more about the arguments of those in favour of Icons. Not only as a challenge to your beliefs, but to my own as an excercise in understanding what it is we know about various traditions such as icons.

Thank you and God Bless.

I can not teach you what the experience of praying before icons has taught me. In order to learn that you need to experience praying before icons themselves and then you will learn.

[Mark Downham]

Hello. I wish to invite those who are interested in discussing a very sensitive and serious issue about Icons.

I wish to learn more about the arguments of those in favour of Icons. Not only as a challenge to your beliefs, but to my own as an excercise in understanding what it is we know about various traditions such as icons.

Thank you and God Bless.

I have taken up your offer of a discussion in the Lutheran Forum on Icons (Post 95) - although you may ignite and catch fire in this Conversation.

Mark