Icons

[MORTANIUS]

I understand that Icons have been part of the early Church, and that even Luke (who had authored one of the Gospels) was an iconagrapher. Religious art was permitted because it did not violate the law of idolatry since what was depicted in various icons, have been witnessed to (such as events from the scriptures, people from the scriptures and even members of the early Church).

When did miracles first start taking place through icons?

[minasoliman]

Well, tradition has it that what inspired St. Luke the Evangelist to be an iconagrapher was an incident with Christ, where some Persian high nobleman wanted a picture of Christ to be healed from a certain ailment. Christ asked from this man a cloth. So Christ took the cloth, pressed His face upon it and gave it to the man. The man was healed when he touched it. This was witnessed by St. Luke and gave him the inspiration to write icons (as opposed to drawing, since in iconography there are symbols that must be added telling a story, hence the word "write").

God bless.

PS This story is off the top of my head, so I may be wrong in some little details.

[Michael the Iconographer]

Mina,
The icon you are referring to is the Holy Mandylion of Edessa.

[minasoliman]

oh wow...it still exists!

Thank you Michael.

God bless.

[Michael the Iconographer]

oh wow...it still exists!

Thank you Michael.

God bless.

Yes it does exist and I got to venerate it for about 20-30 minutes last spring while it was on exhibit in Cincinnatti, Ohio.

[orthedoxy]

Armenians don't bow down to Idles in church and the church doesn't teach us to do so.
Are other Oriental Orthodox taught to bow down before an icon? I thought it was only EO that bowed down before Icons.

[CopticGirl]

Armenians don't bow down to Idles in church and the church doesn't teach us to do so.
Are other Oriental Orthodox taught to bow down before an icon? I thought it was only EO that bowed down before Icons.

I have not seen it done in my church, and nor would I bow down before one. In my church, we have two specific icons that come to mind, and the most people do is say a prayer and light a candle in front of it.

God Bless.

[Michael the Iconographer]

I have not seen it done in my church, and nor would I bow down before one. In my church, we have two specific icons that come to mind, and the most people do is say a prayer and light a candle in front of it.

God Bless.

Do Oriental Orthodox and Copts not bow before icons and venerate them? Would I offend someone if I were in an OO or Coptic Church and venerated an icon in the manner an Eastern Orthodox would?

[erinipassi]

Hi Michael,

You would not offend the Coptic Orthodox Church if you bowed as a sign of respect and venerated an Icon. This is because we recognise the context of why it is done. In the Coptic Orthodox, there is two types of bowing. The first use of bowing is for worship and worship is only reserved for God alone. Icons are not worshiped in any way. The Second use of bowing is for showing a guest of honour respect. For example, in the presence of royalty such a the king or queen of a country, people bow as a sign of respect, but they do not worship the king of queen.

Also this tradition of bowing to guests of honour or to people who we consider as special dates back to the Old Testament and you see it first mentioned with Abraham as a sign of respect before making a request to people whom he sees as special.

"Then Abraham stood up and bowed himself to the people of the land, the sons of Heth. And he spoke with them, saying, "If it is your wish that I bury my dead out of my sight, hear me, and meet with Ephron the son of Zohar for me...." (Genesis 23: 7-9)

Here Abraham wasn't worshiping people when he was bowing, rather he was showing them respect.

Again we see this with Moses: "So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, bowed down, and kissed him. And they asked each other about their well-being, and they went into the tent." (Exodus 18: 7)

Also with King David when he greeted Jonathan, he bowed down as a sign of affection and respect. "As soon as the lad had gone, David arose from a place toward the south, fell on his face to the ground, and bowed down three times. And they kissed one another; and they wept together, but David more so." (1 Samuel 20: 41)

So here the context is different where bowing is a sign of respect and not worship. Equally since the Icons are for us a representative of the living family in heaven, bowing as sign of respect within the correct context and NOT worship is something that the Coptic Orthodox Church is familiar with.

love and blessings
erini

[sin_vladimirov]

Armenians don't bow down to Idles in church and the church doesn't teach us to do so.
Are other Oriental Orthodox taught to bow down before an icon? I thought it was only EO that bowed down before Icons.


"Icon=Idol"?
If this is the case, we are truly different in more ways than one.:(

[orthedoxy]

"Icon=Idol"?
If this is the case, we are truly different in more ways than one.:(
Icon could become idols. I believe many EO are more then honoring the saint when they bow down to them but in fact it's an act of worship.

[minasoliman]

Icon could become idols. I believe many EO are more then honoring the saint when they bow down to them but in fact it's an act of worship.

Not necessarily. Erini did show that just as we bow down to people to show respect, and just as famous Biblical figures did the same, so there should be no problem in bowing down before icons. Bowing down before icons shouldn't necessarily make them "idols" so long as you don't worship them.

In fact, I know from experience in the Coptic Church we PRAY in front of the icons. This is so that the saint we pray in front of can pray for us.

Xrictoc anecti!

[orthedoxy]

Not necessarily. Erini did show that just as we bow down to people to show respect, and just as famous Biblical figures did the same, so there should be no problem in bowing down before icons. Bowing down before icons shouldn't necessarily make them "idols" so long as you don't worship them.

In fact, I know from experience in the Coptic Church we PRAY in front of the icons. This is so that the saint we pray in front of can pray for us.

Xrictoc anecti!

Hi Mina :wave:
Do you think an icon can become an idle? If yes how so?

[minasoliman]

Yes. By worshipping it.

But I'm defending not that we worship it, but bowing to an icon is not idolatry at all if done in the proper thought as Abraham, Moses, and David has done.

Xrictoc anecti!

[sin_vladimirov]

Icon could become idols. I believe many EO are more then honoring the saint when they bow down to them but in fact it's an act of worship.

Yes, Icons can become Idols, so can anything else.

Also, I am sorry Orthedox, but you belief (the underlined text) is based on what?

You can read mind?
You can read heart?

Can you please explain what is your view based on.

Thank you, many years and God bless.

in ICXC
stefan+

[orthedoxy]

Yes. By worshipping it.

But I'm defending not that we worship it, but bowing to an icon is not idolatry at all if done in the proper thought as Abraham, Moses, and David has done.

Xrictoc anecti!
I agree bowing down could be an act of respect but also could be an act of worship.
I know of people that bow down to the statue and pray to that certain saint and asking the saint to do a certain thing for them they devote all their time into that saint, is this proper?
what does xricto anecti mean?
allah maek :)

[orthedoxy]

Yes, Icons can become Idols, so can anything else.

Also, I am sorry Orthedox, but you belief (the underlined text) is based on what?

You can read mind?
You can read heart?

Can you please explain what is your view based on.

Thank you, many years and God bless.

in ICXC
stefan+
How can icons become idols? What does it mean to worship?
bassed on what these people tell me many people don't know much about God all they know if they pray to this saint then they are doing the right thing.
Satan asked Jesus to bow down and worship him what do you think he was telling him to do?

[sin_vladimirov]

How can icons become idols? What does it mean to worship?
bassed on what these people tell me many people don't know much about God all they know if they pray to this saint then they are doing the right thing.
Satan asked Jesus to bow down and worship him what do you think he was telling him to do?

I remember that story about log in the eye! Why do I remember that? God bless you brother, leave the judging to the Judge.




Xristos Anesti!
(Christ is risen)

Alithos Anesti!
(Indeed He is risen)

[minasoliman]

"Xrictoc anecti" is the way I like to spell "Christos anesti" which means "Christ is risen!"


I know of people that bow down to the statue and pray to that certain saint and asking the saint to do a certain thing for them they devote all their time into that saint, is this proper?


Good question! The thing is that there is a certain level of love to someone that somehow you have amazing faith that such saints can appeal to God.

Maybe, indeed these Christians need to at least start to have a relationship with Christ Himself. But at the same time I see nothing improper with devoting your life to a saint, as long as it is done in light of following a perfect example of Christ.

In the end, if Christ is "forgotten" because of the saint, then you are right. Which is why education is important. But it shouldn't stop from the traditions of the Church.

My "role model" in spirituality is St. Augustine, and I try to imitate him so long as I believe it is an imitation of what Christ expects from me, if it pleases Christ.

Besides, following true examples of the saints should also lead to the fact that the Christian MUST remember Christ and love Christ above all things, even more than his/her "role model" (to the point of hatred). If Christ is forgotten, then this message must be taught so that the wrong message doesn't reach people.

As for the example about Jesus and Satan, with all due respect, do you think anyone would bow down to Satan in respect, let alone worship? We're talking about people we exemplify, not figures we abhore.

Xrictoc anecti!

[erinipassi]

Hi Orthedoxy,

I don't know what is your background except that it is Armenian so please forgive me and correct me if I make the wrong assumption, but if you are Armenian Orthodox your questions can easily be answered by your confessional Priest. In fact all my information comes from my confessional Priest. When discussing Church matters it is very important to have the guidance of your spiritual director so as to understand your faith deeper. But to answer your question, I sense there is a misunderstanding about the concept of a Saint. Orthedoxy, have you ever had a best friend in the place where you live? If you have a best friend, does that mean, since you talk to that best friend all the time and spend hours in their company, does that mean that friend is above God? Does that mean that you worship your friend because you talk to them often?

And when you ask your best friend to pray for you and talk to your best friend about your troubles, does that mean you don't think that God is important? Well the Saints are your family in heaven. So when you ask your best friend in heaven to pray for you, its the same as asking your best friend here on earth. If you want to understand this better, please visit the thread called "Prayer to Saints" and it answers all your questions. Please also read the bible verses that I posted in this thread so that it will make sense to you.

love and blessings
erini

[orthedoxy]

Hi Orthedoxy,

I don't know what is your background except that it is Armenian so please forgive me and correct me if I make the wrong assumption, but if you are Armenian Orthodox your questions can easily be answered by your confessional Priest. In fact all my information comes from my confessional Priest. When discussing Church matters it is very important to have the guidance of your spiritual director so as to understand your faith deeper. But to answer your question, I sense there is a misunderstanding about the concept of a Saint. Orthedoxy, have you ever had a best friend in the place where you live? If you have a best friend, does that mean, since you talk to that best friend all the time and spend hours in their company, does that mean that friend is above God? Does that mean that you worship your friend because you talk to them often?

And when you ask your best friend to pray for you and talk to your best friend about your troubles, does that mean you don't think that God is important? Well the Saints are your family in heaven. So when you ask your best friend in heaven to pray for you, its the same as asking your best friend here on earth. If you want to understand this better, please visit the thread called "Prayer to Saints" and it answers all your questions. Please also read the bible verses that I posted in this thread so that it will make sense to you.

love and blessings
erini
I read what you said and it was great i agree with alot of the things you said.I'm Oriental Orthodox.
I see abuse of the icons mainly in the EO churches. I don't know about your Coptic Church but in our Church we don't have statues. we have pictures but we are not taught to bow before a picture. I don't think there is anything wrong if you are using the image to pray to God but don't you think at some point it becomes worshiping the image? What happens when they are actualy trusting the image insted of God?
Even if it's my best friend or my wife if they were to kneel before me i would tell them get up i'm only a servant.
Maybe you can explain what is an idolater and what is meant by worship?

Christos hariav e merelots.

[sin_vladimirov]

I see abuse of the icons mainly in the EO churches.


This is such a sad and unfortunate statement.


(shaking dust of my sandals):sigh:

God bless you. Thank you.

Peace be to you.
in ICXC
stefan+

[erinipassi]

Hi Orthedoxy

I think the main problem is, that you are looking at the concept of bowing from the 21st century mentality. Some of the traditions of the Church dates back to the Old Testament and cannot be be viewed or thought of with a 21st century outlook.

For example a man kissing another man on the cheek as a greeting in the western world in the modern 21st century, is seen as inappropriate. But in some cultures they have carried this traditional practice from their early history. Although several countries comes to mind, one such example is the Jewish nation which still practices this:

"So Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, bowed down, and kissed him. And they asked each other about their well-being, and they went into the tent." (Exodus 18: 7)

Equally with Bowing, in the modern western thinking, you don't bow to someone, YET, in some Asian cultures, they bow as a sign of respect to their guests and have carried this tradition over from their early history. So the practice of bowing as a sign of respect is an ancient practice, one that dates back to Abraham and was carried forward by the early Christian Churches. You need to remember that the Apostles had Jewish roots and the reading of the psalms, for example, in our prayers comes from those roots. Jesus says, ""Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." (Matt 5: 17)

So Jesus himself is telling us, he didnt come to abolish the old but to complete it. So if the practice of bowing was carried over to the early Churches, it must be viewed in the correct context of respect and NOT worship.

David arose from a place toward the south, fell on his face to the ground, and bowed down three times. And they kissed one another; and they wept together, but David more so." (1 Samuel 20: 41)

So if all the famous Prophets and people in the bible practice bowing as a sign of respect when greeting a guest or someone special, if the early Churches carried this practice over, then the people need to understand it in the correct context and not in the 21st Century frame mind.

Neither the Coptic Church nor any Eastern Orthodox Church that I know has statues in their Church. But all of us, whether we are in Eastern or Oriental Churches have icons. I think the only Churches that have perhaps statues of saints is the Catholic Church and they are different from the Eastern Orthodox Churches. For example the Greek Orthodox Church have their own Patriarch and do not have Pope of Rome as their Patriarch.

love and blessings
erini

[erinipassi]

I forgot to add Orthedoxy, to understand more about Icons, I've posted a long explaination in a thread called "Invitation to Lutheran Section for Debate on Icons". Please read this thread to understand more about it.

love and blessings
erini

[sin_vladimirov]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to erinipassi again.

:mad:

[Michael the Iconographer]

The thing is Erinipassi we can explain all we want about icons to the Lutherans and non-Orthodox, but to truly understand icons they must pray with them and experience them in the way we Orthodox experience them. No ammount of knowledge about icons can substitue the practical experience an Orthodox Christian has of icons in their life.

[minasoliman]

If I'm not mistaken, I guess I may understand Orthedoxy's point of view as something cultural. Every Church has a culture in it, and there are things implied in the culture that is only wrong within the culture and not anywhere else.

For example, the Coptic Church FORBIDS any statues because Coptic Christian culture from Apostolic era got fed up with the pagan worshipping that was going on, and we just decided to be different with the icons.

However, the Roman Catholic Church, I believe used statues even before they split from Orthodoxy, and I see, from a theological point of view, nothing wrong with statues either, although culturally to the Egyptians, it is VERY WEIRD and TABOO, to the RCC, it is cultural and tradition to use statues.

For the Byzantines, they decorate every single square inch of their Church walls (which is IMHO very very beautiful) with icons and pictures. It feels like heaven when I enter a Byzantine Church (which is what is supposed to be). The symbolism that these are "windows" to heaven all give glory to God and honor to Him and His saints. But to someone else, they would prefer something as simple like the Coptic Church that does have plenty of icons, but not every square inch of the walls and ceiling of the Church.

So I respect the Armenian Orthodox church for teaching their congregation not to bow down to Icons and not to fill their walls with icons. I'm sure there's something tradition and cultural in the Armenian Christians that made them fed up with something of other religions. But that should only be within the boundaries of culture; you can't criticize other Churches of other cultures for their own practices if in reality they are not worshipping the saints and angels portrayed through the icons/sculptures.

Xrictoc anecti!

[Michael the Iconographer]

Very well said, Mina.

[orthedoxy]

Mina
I'm not saying bowing down as respect is wrong. Our Church prays to the saints no problem.
I believe sometimes people abuse and worship the saints. There are at times in the Bible where bowing down is considered worship. Where do we draw the line how does some thing becomes an idol? What is idolatry?
I'm sorry if I used an EO as an example of some one I knew. I also know Armenians that pray to statues and they don't even understand anything about God.
I don't think I have done something wrong by bringing up questions I have.
By the way all your posts are so great. Keep up the good work

[minasoliman]

I'm not saying bowing down as respect is wrong.

Perfect! We are in agreement.


I believe sometimes people abuse and worship the saints.


If this is a recurrent problem within a certain culture, then I would respect the decision made by the Church of the culture not to bow down to remind people of not worshipping. Otherwise, if this is on an individual basis, then I suggest good education and encouragement of repentance and confessing to a priest.

God bless.

[SirTimothy]

For example a man kissing another man on the cheek as a greeting in the western world in the modern 21st century, is seen as inappropriate. But in some cultures they have carried this traditional practice from their early history. Although several countries comes to mind, one such example is the Jewish nation which still practices this:

The Greeks, the Cypriots, the Italians, the French, the Arabs and the Egyptians all do this, and many other nations besides. In fact, in Egypt, it is not uncommon for men to hold hands when walking down the street, as a sign of friendship, not of anything else. Horrifies the westerners, though. ;)

Timothy

[CopticGirl]

The Greeks, the Cypriots, the Italians, the French, the Arabs and the Egyptians all do this, and many other nations besides. In fact, in Egypt, it is not uncommon for men to hold hands when walking down the street, as a sign of friendship, not of anything else. Horrifies the westerners, though. ;)

Timothy

LOL, Interesting that a non-Egyptian is on a forum full of Egyptians telling them what is common for them. :doh:

When I was in Egypt, I didn't see men walking down the street holding hands. I dunno, maybe I missed it?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[SirTimothy]

It's fairly common. In most Arab countries, actually, and sometimes even over here. It's only in the West that the idea of men holding hands is taboo. ;)

Timothy

[minasoliman]

LOL...that is so true.

Have you noticed Italians and Greeks are so similar to Egyptians in the way men greet each other (i.e. kiss on both cheeks)? This Greek ORthodox priest and I who are very good friends always greet one another, as he likes to put it, with a "holy kiss of peace." :)

Xrictoc anecti!

[Irish Melkite]

Have you noticed Italians and Greeks are so similar to Egyptians in the way men greet each other (i.e. kiss on both cheeks)? This Greek ORthodox priest and I who are very good friends always greet one another, as he likes to put it, with a "holy kiss of peace." :)

Mina,

It is our (Melkite) custom for men who are close friends to greet one another by clasping each other's right hand, with the left hand on the other's right shoulder, and kissing the others cheeks either twice (Lebanese) (right-left) or thrice (Syrians) (right-left-right). Those among us, like myself, who are neither ethnically Lebanese or Syrian tend to follow the cultural practice to which we've been most exposed (depending mostly on the majority ethnic make-up of the parish), although there are certainly Melkites of western origin who aren't comfortable with the practice and skillfully avoid it, even after years as members of the community.

Many years,

Neil

[SirTimothy]

Indeed. If my memory serves me right, and it probably doesn't... two kisses for a guy, three for a girl. Cause they're special. ;). Or three if you're VERY glad to see a guy. The whole cultural stuff living here in the Middle East means that a lot of the Bible--particularly some of the references in the Gospels start to make a lot more sense. They were everyday references in early Palestine, but some of the more interesting stuff gets lost in a Western mindset.

Timothy

[Michael the Iconographer]

LOL...that is so true.

Have you noticed Italians and Greeks are so similar to Egyptians in the way men greet each other (i.e. kiss on both cheeks)? This Greek ORthodox priest and I who are very good friends always greet one another, as he likes to put it, with a "holy kiss of peace." :)

Xrictoc anecti!

In my parish many of the people greet each other with the kiss of peace, and at the point in the Divine Liturgy where the priest proclaims "Let us Love One Another with one accord so that we may proclaim the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit..." we exchange the kiss of peace (3x) with those arround us, both male and female. The priest who chrismated me and I always exchange the kiss of peace when we see each other. It is quite common, in fact, for Eastern Orthodox to do this.

[orthedoxy]

In America it's not uncommon to see two guys french kiss on the street :blush:

[minasoliman]

In America it's not uncommon to see two guys french kiss on the street :blush:

God forbid that this becomes rampant. :sick:

[tdcharles]

In America it's not uncommon to see two guys french kiss on the street :blush:
Only in San Francisco. ;)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Only in San Francisco. ;)

and in Lakewood, Ohio as well.

[minasoliman]

Our infamous ex-governor in Jersey is one famous individual...(I think we are digressing...lol)

[Michael the Iconographer]

Being this is an icons thread, I thought I would post the link to my web page incase any of you have not seen my work.

http://www.comeandseeicons.com/goltz.htm