St Patrick the Baptist

[Peter]

My spiritual son sent this to me. I about choked on my biscuts and gravy.

Peter

http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org/pages/Article%20-%20St.%20Patrick%20A%20Baptist.htm

[Alexis OCA]

You mean you didn't know that. He opened the Deeper Life Baptist Church on the hill near the glen just outside Dublin....I hear he shared an ale or two with Molly Bloom.^_^

[gzt]

Well, this changes everything. Goodbye, TAW!

[CFoxDWH]

Yeah, I'm the one that came across that. I don't know what to do now!

[Rilian]

There goes the green beer next year.

[sin_vladimirov]

http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org/pages/Article%20-%20St.%20Patrick%20A%20Baptist.htm


:doh:

[Peter]

I think the author graduated from the Jack Chick School of History.

Peter

[Rilian]

I think the author graduated from the Jack Chick School of History.

magna cum laude.

[StChristopherofPalestine]

May this information would help with some of the problems in Ireland?

[Robbie_James_Francis]

magna cum laude.

Which my amazing Latin ability tells me means "something with honour(?)" :P

---------

I daren't think what my family would make of this! As we're Irish Catholics they probably wouldn't respond well. ^_^

[Rilian]

May this information would help with some of the problems in Ireland?

In all seriousness, it cuts to the heart of the troubles in many ways. Both sides claim St. Patrick as their own. Bishop James Ussher (a colorful figure in his own right) was the one of the first to sort of dabble in this historical revisionism. He was a bishop in the Church of Ireland, which was the branch of the Anglican on the island. This BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/plantation/religious/rl03.shtml) article says the following:

From the point of view of the Ulster church, Ussher’s most significant contribution was his book, A discourse of the religion anciently professed by the Irish and Brittish, published in 1631. In this Ussher examined the history of the Early Irish church after the arrival of St Patrick. He set out to show that St Patrick was, theologically, a Protestant who had operated in Ireland independently of the papacy. According to Ussher’s thesis, Ireland had succumbed to the evil influence of Rome in the 11th century from which the Church of Ireland was now seeking to rescue it. This historical assertion enabled Ussher to create a respectable parentage for the Church of Ireland: it was not invented by Henry VIII, it was the legitimate heir of the Early Celtic church – hence the Church of Ireland was the rightful owner of the Irish churches and cathedrals, hence it, not the usurping Roman Catholic church, was the church to which the Irish people should give their allegiance. What Ussher had done was to create a respectable origin myth for Irish Protestants, one which was to have a powerful impact, right down to the 20th century.

This reverbates down to this day at places such as Drumcree.

It's also interesting to note that there is a St. Patrick's Cathedral in Dublin. It's the seat of the Protestant (i.e. Anglican) Church of Ireland however. Jonathan Swift was the Dean there.

[Oblio]

There goes the green beer next year.

:eek:

:D :D :D


Best Pentecosterion one liner

:thumbsup:

[katherine2001]

Our mission has St. Patrick as one of the choices for the bishop to pick from when he chooses our patron saint. We'd better keep this article away from him or St. Patrick will never get chosen--I don't think he'd choose a Baptist for our patron saint!

[Lotar]

This historical assertion enabled Ussher to create a respectable parentage for the Church of Ireland: it was not invented by Henry VIII, it was the legitimate heir of the Early Celtic church – hence the Church of Ireland was the rightful owner of the Irish churches and cathedrals


Among other things, nevermind that that the Anglican church was/is Anglo-Saxon, not Celtic.

[The Prokeimenon!]

Wow! I didn't realize that St. Patrick rejected so many "Romish" doctrines! It's interesting that St. Patrick took so much time to dispute the "Romish" Church, considering that the "Romish" Church was "only in embryo."

It's also interesting that he had never heard of extreme unction. Had he never read the Epistle of St. James? After all, we know that St. Patrick used the KJV only :D

We know that St. Patrick would not condone alcoholism, but I'm sure his "Baptist Church" had some pretty good potlucks ;)

I hope the author of this article doesn't expose any Greecish, Russish, or Antiochish Saints!

Moses

[The Prokeimenon!]

By the way- in Independent, Fundamentalist Baptist mythology, articles like this are taken quite seriously, and I have never once heard the accuracy of articles like this or "the Trail of Blood" questioned. :doh:

The only thing this article needs is comic book illustrations :P

Moses

[sin_vladimirov]

By the way- in Independent, Fundamentalist Baptist mythology, articles like this are taken quite seriously... Moses

Does that mean that its is better for us to start always using the name and the title St. John the Forerunner instead of...?

[Marjorie]

I actually know someone who took this article seriously and thought I was naive for not understanding history well enough.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[jsgnpdx]

Oh well, ...does anyone know the REAL difference between Orthodox and Baptists?.....

Well, Orthodox say hello to each other at the liquor store..:D

So sorrry, I'm not worthy I'm not worthy:bow:

IC XC NIKA
Joseph

[nicodemus]

My spiritual son sent this to me. I about choked on my biscuts and gravy.

Peter

http://www.calvaryroadbaptist.org/pages/Article%20-%20St.%20Patrick%20A%20Baptist.htm
I have an aquaintance that claims the Baptist church is the ORIGINAL Christian church and frequently tells me that John the Baptist founded the Baptist church but that it didn't manifest itself until a millenium and a good bit of centuries later.

[sin_vladimirov]

I have an aquaintance that claims the Baptist church is the ORIGINAL Christian church and frequently tells me that John the Baptist founded the Baptist church but that it didn't manifest itself until a millenium and a good bit of centuries later.

What were they doing? Collecting stamps all that time?

[nicodemus]

What were they doing? Collecting stamps all that time?
I didn't ask about the stamp collecting, but my line of questioning was roughly similar. :P

I also mentioned to her things like the fact that Thessalonians still exist, and that they've never changed their faith and that they aren't Baptist.

[The Prokeimenon!]

The Trail of Blood (http://www.fbinstitute.com/trail/) asserts that St. John the Forerunner was the first Baptist

The author also lets us know that the Greek Catholics are a very large branch of the Roman Catholic Church. :doh:

Moses

[Photios]

This makes me want to find the one Chick tract I ever saw that included Orthodoxy. IIRC, it was about how the RCC had founded it to oppose Communism, but the MP turned against both of them. I don't remember if the MP became "Chickian" or not, but I had a nice period of "What the...? haha. What the...?" for about 20 minutes. I think a friend may still have that one. I have to browse his collection again.

[gzt]

today in our discussion thing after vespers, we were discussing evangelism and acquiring a spirit of peace, and for some reason i had the opportunity to use as an example, "never leave a tract as a tip..." and one girl didn't know what a tract was! what innocence. so we talked about jack chick, it was great.

[gtsecc]

I would ask about this over on STR. Some folks there are pretty good with early church history of the British Isles.

[Maximus]

That Chick stuff never fails to amaze me.

What utter and complete trash.

[nicodemus]

The only time I've ever gotten a tract was at the 96 Olympics. They were playing a bunch of the soccer games in Birmingham and I got handed a tract in about 12 trillion differenet languages outside of Legion field before the beginning of the USA vs. Argentina game.

[CaDan]

The Trail of Blood (http://www.fbinstitute.com/trail/) asserts that St. John the Forerunner was the first Baptist

The author also lets us know that the Greek Catholics are a very large branch of the Roman Catholic Church. :doh:

Moses

If there weren't people who took that seriously, I would think it was some strange alternate history sci-fi. Kinda like those stories about "What if the South had won the American Civil War?"

Now I have to go take a shower, 'cause I feel all dirty.

[CaDan]

But it's nice to see there's at least a little mention of Orthodoxy in his crazed fantasies. I wouldn't want y'all to feel left out!

[nicodemus]

WEIRD.

Why, in the first picture of the Russian patriarch, is he shown making a peace sign? Is that supposed to be a blessing???

In IC XC,
Marjorie
Looks like they don't know the Orthodox blessing hand position.

[CaDan]

WEIRD.

Why, in the first picture of the Russian patriarch, is he shown making a peace sign? Is that supposed to be a blessing???

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Jack just has him confused with the hippies that he hated so much. It all kind of flowed together . . . .

[sin_vladimirov]

Now, I do no know who Jack Chick is and what his story is.

Today was the first time that I herd of him.


I have to admit that many things are "slightly" deranged, but I do wish to make a point that when Jack Chick is talking about Ustashe regime of Croatia during the WWII from 1941-1945, he is actually telling the truth.


On the bottom of this slide is the picture that every serb knows by heart, a group of 7 Croatian Nazi Ustashe holding the head of an Orthodox Serb Priest from Krajina (Traditionaly Serbian part of Croatia, that during both wars in the balkans, WWII and this last unfortunate fratricide, was cleaned of serb population).


These men Nazi Ustashe, blessed by then, bishop of Croatia, Alojzje Stepinac (canonized by Pope John Paul II, in 1998, I think) have exterminated about 800.000 Serbs during WWII (Croatia was the home of the second biggest concentration camp in the war, Jasenovac). Also, these men, using the help (money, service, false passports) of Vatican did escape the hand of justice. Now, I hate to bring this up, but souls of 800.000 Serb and 400.000 other exteminated during the WWII do call for this little explanation.

As far as the serbs were concerned, Roman Catholic Church in Croatia had a policy: 1/3 to be killed, 1/3 to be re-baptised and 1/3 to be used as slaves during the NEW GERMAN REICH.

They succeded. Just an example. Former Yugoslavia had a compulsury military service. All able men were to join at the age of 18 or when-ever possible after that age. Do you know what time first regruts came from those traditionaly serbian parts of croatia to serve the post WWII Yugoslav Peoples Army?? In 1961.. which means there were no children left (during WWII) to serve before that.


I am not going into defence of any of the historical and theological statements made by Jack Chick; but for this little part on the bottom of this particular page which is ofGREEN BACKROUND and BLACK LETTERS, (plus read carefully RED BOX above) which IS TRUE.


Forgive me, I just do not wish my brothers and sisters to laugh at the bones of their brothers and sisters, who were eradicated for the reason that they were Orthodox Serbs only.


I am sorry, I feel a need to say this. If Serbs (I am half/half) wont say the story, we know that nobody else will... The proof of this is what happened in the Balkans during 1941-45; and what is going on there since separated yugoslav republics were recognised for indenpedent states in 1991 (just guess who recognised them first!!).


I am sorry, please forgive, but bones of my fathers cry to me.

It is not your place to be weighted-down by serbian stories, but I did have to do this.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, the sinner.


in ICXC
stefan+





[Jack Chick cartoon deleted]

[prodromos]

I have to admit that many things are "slightly" deranged, but I do wish to make a point that when Jack Chick is talking about Ustashe regime of Croatia during the WWII from 1941-1945, he is actually telling the truth.Unfortunately, the fact that Chick has published this is possibly one of the reasons why many Catholics refuse to accept the reality of these attrocites. When you read the rest of Chick's rubbish you can't really blame them.

John.

P.S. Vladimir, you seem to have a mass of blank space inserted at the end of your profile signature. Are you able to remove it?

[sin_vladimirov]

Baptist, it is not my to enlighen people, for I am in the dark myself, I just posted it because I had the need to do so. Plus I am sorry if I hijacked the thread, been doing alot of that lately. As far as this Jack person is concerned, he is a a complete 100% idiot.

P.S. Will check it and try to rectify it. Thanks.

[prodromos]

Baptist, it is not my to enlighen people, for I am in the dark myself, I just posted it because I had the need to do so.I am 100% in support of what you posted :). I believe it was necessary too.

John

[sin_vladimirov]

Baptist, thank you.

[Kolya]

Oh well, ...does anyone know the REAL difference between Orthodox and Baptists?.....

Well, Orthodox say hello to each other at the liquor store..:D

So sorrry, I'm not worthy I'm not worthy:bow:

IC XC NIKA
Joseph

OFF TOPIC// The owner of the local liquor store at the corner of our street is a cradle Greek Orthodox. They're always amused when their 'Russian Orthodox Cousin' convert comes in to say hi. //End

Seriously though, to get back to the topic. After I had left my former Protestant Denomination and was looking for a new Church Home, I came across several articles where the Baptists state they can prove that their roots go back to Apostolic times. I nearly started attending there, but somehow God held me back.;)

Christ is Risen!!! Храйстос воскрез!!!

Kolya

[Kolya]

Christ is Risen!!!


These men Nazi Ustashe, blessed by then, bishop of Croatia, Alojzje Stepinac (canonized by Pope John Paul II, in 1998, I think) have exterminated about 800.000 Serbs during WWII (Croatia was the home of the second biggest concentration camp in the war, Jasenovac). Also, these men, using the help (money, service, false passports) of Vatican did escape the hand of justice. Now, I hate to bring this up, but souls of 800.000 Serb and 400.000 other exteminated during the WWII do call for this little explanation.



Stefan my friend. I'm glad you brought this up. I know this is a very sore point for all Serbs, because the atrocities continue as we speak. I pray for all my Orthodox Brothers and Sisters in Serbia, that God may grant them peace.

But may I also ask us to remember the 22 million + Russians who died in WWII, many of them were Orthodox too. They just happened to live under Stalin.
Let us pray that God may have mercy on their souls and that they may find Mercy on the day of Judgement. (Now I am finished, this thread may return to the topic)

Kolya

[The Prokeimenon!]

Dear Stephan,
Please forgive me if my posting of that link has caused any grief. Thank you, though, for your statements. I had no idea about much of what you said. I just assumed that because it was in a Jack Chick comic, it was all made up. Thanks for opening our eyes to this.

On a related note, I met a Bosnian at the grocery store yesterday. She was the checker. I said that I knew some Serbs. She said "they're Bosnian! They're all Bosnian. Some of them don't want to say they're Bosnian, but they're Bosnian." I assume this is the source of much tension in the region as well- Bosnians are Muslims, right?

Moses

[Rilian]

Moses, there were people who historically called themselves "Bosniaks", but in truth there are no real Bosnians. What we commonly call Bosnians now are South Slavs who apostasized to escape the Ottoman millet.

The history of the Ustase is a dark one. Here is an article from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustashe) about it. The estimates I've heard are that 5 to 8 hundred thousand Orthodox Serbs were killed. One of the most notorious characters of the period was nicknamed "Brother Satan".

[The Prokeimenon!]

These poor people- their reward is great in Heaven!

One more question- is it true that the UN (or US) forces, during the recent war, bombed Serbian Orthodox Churches on Pascha and wrote "Happy Easter" on the bombs? I certainly wouldn't doubt it for a second, but I wouldn't want to tell anybody else and then find out it wasn't true.

Moses

[nicodemus]

These poor people- their reward is great in Heaven!

One more question- is it true that the UN (or US) forces, during the recent war, bombed Serbian Orthodox Churches on Pascha and wrote "Happy Easter" on the bombs? I certainly wouldn't doubt it for a second, but I wouldn't want to tell anybody else and then find out it wasn't true.

Moses
I recently looked up a lot of info about that very thing. The reports I found said it was British troops. It wouldn't suprise me that American troops didn't do it simply for the sole fact they didn't know what Orthodoxy was and that Pascha has a different date in the east.

The bombings on Pascha were tragic, especially in light of the fact that Clinton and other world forces held off on boming Muslim countries during Ramadan only a few years prior. They don't care about Muslims at all, that was PR thing. It's just that the US & others don't feel they owe any PR spin or damage control to those commie Orthodox though because they don't have huge oil reserves or a big, loudmouthed lobby in the US. *rolleyes* :mad:

[Rilian]

There's a picture somewhere of a bomb exploding near a church in Novi Sad.

[Matrona]

This thread has not escaped the attention of our friends next door.

FYI, just because Jack Chick took it and based a whole bunch of lies off of it (no one here should claim Pius XII was a Nazi, and it's very easy to criticize a leader like that from this point in history), the massacres under the Ustase regime in Croatia DID HAPPEN under Alojzje Stepinac's approval.

[Photini]

I am 100% in support of what you posted :). I believe it was necessary too.

John
Me too.

[Epiphanygirl]

how about posting a VALID post on that then???

[Photini]

how about posting a VALID post on that then???
Are you denying that this massacre happened?

[Matrona]

how about posting a VALID post on that then???

Aside from the part that slandered the pope--which I agree no one in this forum has any business quoting that blasphemous garbage--this really happened.

[Photini]

www.kosovo.com (http://www.kosovo.com) is a good website as well.

[Rilian]

I posted a link to a wikipedia article above about what happened in WWII.

I wish both that Chick had never incorporated that in to their twisted vision of history, and I wish the comic wasn't in our area. I should have said that.

The history is there though.

[xenia]

/MOD HAT/

Folks, I know you are posting links to the Jack Chick site to show how awful it is, but CF does not allow links to sites that belittle or mock Christian groups. I am having to go through this thread to delete all links to that site. Please don't post anymore of 'em! :)

/MOD HAT OFF/

[Epiphanygirl]

should I dig up half truths...1 % truth 99% lies and post them? it's the one % that counts right? Shame on all of you.
YOu mean to tell me you have abolutly no other resources about a massacre than a chic tract?? gimme a break, I don't buy it!

[Matrona]

I don't think Stepinac was actually canonized, but he was definitely beatified or called "venerable", something to that effect. Anybody want to confirm?

[Marjorie]

should I dig up half truths...1 % truth 99% lies and post them? it's the one % that counts right? Shame on all of you.
YOu mean to tell me you have abolutly no other resources about a massacre than a chic tract?? gimme a break, I don't buy it!

Umm that wasn't how it happened... it wasn't as if someone asked "hey, do you have any resources on the massacre?" and they gave the Chick tract... someone posted the Chick tract first for a different reason (we were making fun of Chick), and then someone commented that that one part was true.

Sorry if it appeared otherwise! No one here likes Chick, obviously... he's a hack. Chick is not exactly a friend of Orthodoxy...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Rilian]

should I dig up half truths...1 % truth 99% lies and post them? it's the one % that counts right? Shame on all of you.
YOu mean to tell me you have abolutly no other resources about a massacre than a chic tract?? gimme a break, I don't buy it!

Please Epiphanygirl, consider what you are saying. Out of the wikipedia article I posted it gives these relevant facts

According to the Simon Wiesenthal Center (based on Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, by Israel Gutman):

"Ustasa terrorists killed 500,000 Serbs, expelled 250,000 and forced 250,000 to convert to Catholicism. They murdered thousands of Jews and Gypsies." [1] (http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t081/t08100.html)
The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum says:

"Due to differing views and lack of documentation, estimates for the number of Serbian victims in Croatia range widely, from 25,000 to more than one million. The estimated number of Serbs killed in Jasenovac ranges from 25,000 to 700,000. The most reliable figures place the number of Serbs killed by the Ustaša between 330,000 and 390,000, with 45,000 to 52,000 Serbs murdered in Jasenovac." [2] (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/Jasenovac.html)

These are not crackpot theories or things we made up.

[Veritas_et_Puritas]

This thread has not escaped the attention of our friends next door.

FYI, just because Jack Chick took it and based a whole bunch of lies off of it (no one here should claim Pius XII was a Nazi, and it's very easy to criticize a leader like that from this point in history), the massacres under the Ustase regime in Croatia DID HAPPEN under Alojzje Stepinac's approval.

Matrona, that is very horrifying, and I did not know... I will read more about it... I am inclined to say that I feelvery ashamed that this man would be beatified/canonised/etc. despite the fact that he is responsible for the unjust deaths of so many... Lord, have mercy. :( :crossrc:

[xenia]

Closed for staff review.