A few questions/thoughts for those who consider CF as their “church”..

[2+2=5]

I hear many people in this forum saying that they do not go to a “church”, but instead fellowship on CF, or, that CF is their “church”.

For those of you that use CF as your “church” and primary source of fellowship, what do you do with such passages that give the ground rules for an assembly, such as 1Cor 14 and many others? Do you have an Elder that can encourage you, etc? Alternatively, have you allowed pseudo elders that have egregiously abused their authority make you completely abandon the whole idea of elders?
What about the Lords supper/Love feast? Do you celebrate that with other believers, as it was intended, or do you miss the blessing of company and partake alone? ( :( )

Just because you have been burned or do not feel the institutional church is functioning 100% biblically, does that give you license to forsake the assembling of the church?
Or do you somehow read an exception clause into Heb 10:25 that if it is not convenient you can simply disregard that command?

Another excuse/complaint I have also heard is that people say they are not getting edified from the believers in a Institutional church..
Well when you were in attendance in an IC were *you* edifying anyone or were you just selfishly seeking to be edified?!

Just a few questions I have been mulling over in my mind.
Recognize that this post is in love and I am merely concerned for my “un-churched” brothers and sisters out there. :angel:

Any thoughts..?

[New_Wineskin]

None need a reason for not following the usual traditional way to fellowship . For a reason to be necessary , the tradition itself would be necessary ( aka for salvation ) . Since many claim that it is not a requirement of salvation , no reason is needed for nonparticipation of the tradition .

I use this forum as *some* fellowship but *not* that I need to have fellowship . I do so to find people with different views that I have yet to hear .

[2+2=5]

None need a reason for not following the usual traditional way to fellowship .
In no way was i saying: "New_Wineskin, get yourself to a local church this Sunday and sit in a pew and fellowship with the back of the brother or sisters head in front of you and listen to a "pastor" usurp Christ’s authority as the head".. ;)

For a reason to be necessary , the tradition itself would be necessary ( aka for salvation ) . Since many claim that it is not a requirement of salvation , no reason is needed for nonparticipation of the tradition .
This kind of thinking leads to chaos and is the principal reason that Romans 6 was written.

[watchman7]

Hello Brethren,
It seems that 2+2=5 and New_Wineskin have a real difference of opinion or difference of interpretation of Christ's Church.
I would suggest that we speak as brethren in Christ ( this is who we are, aren't we? ) on this matter of church assembly or any other topic.
When Christians communicate anywhere, there is a certain fellowship ( even on this forum ). Fellowship is not church. We are the Church.
Those of us who do not assemble in "church" buildings are not "unchurched". Whether we assemble in "church" buildings or assemble in homes, schools, backyards, etc., we are all the church.
What is it that some cannot understand about Christian assembly?
Those who do not assemble in "church" buildings are no more ( or less ) in sin than those who do. Romans chapter 6 was written for all of us not just some of us.
Paul explains in Galatians that we are free from law and works. Salvatian is free to us because Christ paid our ransome. By faith, we are saved not by works lest any should boast.
I do believe that each Christian will seek out some form of assembly by the leading of the spirit. Whether they do or do not seek assembly, this does change their standing in Christ.
Each assembly should be governed by principles set forth by scripture.
Having said all this, I believe obviously that all Christians are the Church. We should abandon "unchurched" as a title for any Christian.
I know that fellowship is possible for all Christians because Christ is the Head of the Church.
Let this discussion between believers be for the purpose of unity not division.
Let's forget traditions of men and seek not to be independent of one another. I suggest we use this forum to seek a unity in the Body of Christ just as we would for denominations.
Let us read and study the Bible and pray to reach out to the lost.
The name of this forum is "unchurched". It is place in the congregation section of the web site. I prefer the title "Home Church".
Those of the institutional church, please do not become legalistic.
Those of the home church, please do not become independent.
Being a member of Christ's Home Church, I find it uplifting to read of others that share a common connection.
Keep the communication and "fellowship" going. Let's share our experience and learn.
Yours sincerely in Christ.
Watchman7

[New_Wineskin]

In no way was i saying: "New_Wineskin, get yourself to a local church this Sunday and sit in a pew and fellowship with the back of the brother or sisters head in front of you and listen to a "pastor" usurp Christ’s authority as the head".. ;)


Well , that is an interesting group of thoghts on how you view the traditional way of doing things . Sounds very inviting .


This kind of thinking leads to chaos and is the principal reason that Romans 6 was written.

Chaos because *your* rules are not in effect . The principal reason why the whole letter called "Romans" was written was to keep people from needing and using the written code the way in that way ... thinking that people are in chaos and earning salvation by works .

[Count]

...such as 1Cor 14 and many others? Do you have an Elder that can encourage you, etc?
Any thoughts..?

By the way, can you give me a verse which shows that corinthians had elders?

Can you give me a single verse, which shows that early christians had the Sunday Service that we have today?

Can you give me a verse that shows that corinthians did nothing but sat in a pew and shut up and listened? Or, can you show me a so-called church of today that does what corinthians did, that is, their all participating in their meetings? Not only a preacher, not only a pastor, not only an elder, but all of them?

If not, be carefull when you cite verses. I know that you will respond me that you are doing this out of love, but don't forget, this is a matter between the believer and his Master. If our Master cannot "correct" us, who are you that take His place?

[2+2=5]

Chaos because *your* rules are not in effect . The principal reason why the whole letter called "Romans" was written was to keep people from needing and using the written code the way in that way ... thinking that people are in chaos and earning salvation by works .
In no way was I insinuating salvation by works! I was merely commenting on the “Assembling with the Church is not a requirement for salvation” and the ramifications of that statement, eg, “Well, refraining from murder when my friend exasperates me is not a requirement for salvation, therefore, I can do it!”. Now I know you and I would find such a thing preposterous, nevertheless, people will stoop to such levels of thinking..

Can you give me a verse that shows that corinthians did nothing but sat in a pew and shut up and listened?

Obviously you did not read my satirical response to New_wineskin;)


Or, can you show me a so-called church of today that does what corinthians did, that is, their all participating in their meetings?

Yes, I happen to assemble with one! Granted it’s not a stereotypical
”Church”, or as you put it, a “so-called church of today”.

I know that you will respond me that you are doing this out of love,
Which I am;)

Who are you that take His place?

You are 105% correct, I am nobody! I am the wretch and the chief of all sinners that the various verses and songs speak of.
this is a matter between the believer and his Master

Absolutely, the only problem is, a lot of his children are not listening :eek:
Salvation is also between the individual and his Master, does that mean the Master cannot use us?!

[New_Wineskin]

edited to :

2+2=5[/b] ]
In no way was I insinuating salvation by works! I was merely commenting on the "Assembling with the Church is not a requirement for salvation" and the ramifications of that statement, eg, "Well, refraining from murder when my friend exasperates me is not a requirement for salvation, therefore, I can do it!". Now I know you and I would find such a thing preposterous, nevertheless, people will stoop to such levels of thinking..



You are linking "do not murder" with "You must assemble" . You are making it a law just as the laws of the Mosaic code about which Paul spoke at length . Just as some Jews were insisting that Gentiles become circumcized because the Scriptures say so , so you are doing with regards to the assembly thing . There is a major difference ... the Lord Himself spoke to be circumcized . The passage about assembling isn't a quote from the Lord demanding assembling . Not only that , but the author of the letter of Hebrews specifically talks about no longer needing a written code on stone or paper . So , here , we have both Paul and the author of Hebrews talking against using the Scriptures in the way of "You must assemble" . These writers would be hypocrites by doing so and then demanding that their writings be taken as more important than those that Moses wrote giving direct quotes from the Lord .

Going back to your example ... If you are refraining from murder simply because the Scriptures say so , it is attempting to gain righteousness by works . If you are refraining from murder because of a relationship with the Lord and the changed life because of that relationship , then this example does not fit my reply . To say that "assembling" ( whatever you mean by that ) is necessary would be saying that it is necessary for salvation . If it is not necessary , there would be no problem with others not doing what you do .

edited to add : Obviously , assembling over the internet does not meet *your* criteria of assembling . If we then did meet face to face , what other criteria would you bring up ? We would then be continuing to look to *you* for guidance instead of the Lord .

[2+2=5]

First things first!
"We would then be continuing to look to *you* for guidance instead of the Lord ."
*Do not* take my word as the final authority!
I, just like everyone else, has a lot to learn, even more so than others to be sure!

You are linking "do not murder" with "You must assemble" . You are making it a law just as the laws of the Mosaic code about which Paul spoke at length . Just as some Jews were insisting that Gentiles become circumcized because the Scriptures say so , so you are doing with regards to the assembly thing . There is a major difference ... the Lord Himself spoke to be circumcized . The passage about assembling isn't a quote from the Lord demanding assembling . Not only that , but the author of the letter of Hebrews specifically talks about no longer needing a written code on stone or paper . So , here , we have both Paul and the author of Hebrews talking against using the Scriptures in the way of "You must assemble" . These writers would be hypocrites by doing so and then demanding that their writings be taken as more important than those that Moses wrote giving direct quotes from the Lord .
Obviously we have different views of scripture that severely weaken our discussion. I believe that scripture is Gods very word. When Moses said, “Thus saith the LORD, X” I believe that carries the same weight as any of the New Testament writers. That is a completely different subject though!


Going back to your example ... If you are refraining from murder simply because the Scriptures say so , it is attempting to gain righteousness by works . If you are refraining from murder because of a relationship with the Lord and the changed life because of that relationship , then this example does not fit my reply . To say that "assembling" ( whatever you mean by that ) is necessary would be saying that it is necessary for salvation . If it is not necessary, there would be no problem with others not doing what you do .
Perhaps my example was not the best, but my point still stands. If God commands something in scripture, and you do otherwise, it is sin. If I obey God, i am not attempting to get to heaven by my works, its simple obedience.
Was Abraham attempting to work his way to heaven when he obeyed God?

In addition, I do not have the perfect formula for the proper form and function of a Church; I still have a very long way to go! :bow:

All I am trying to do is encourage people to check with God and make sure they are obeying him. :prayer:

[New_Wineskin]

In the end , we desire the same thing . But , I will address the items before the end , first .

I don't wish to quarrel . I do desire to point a few things out from my pov .


Obviously we have different views of scripture that severely weaken our discussion. I believe that scripture is Gods very word. When Moses said, “Thus saith the LORD, X” I believe that carries the same weight as any of the New Testament writers. That is a completely different subject though!


Perhaps my example was not the best, but my point still stands. If God commands something in scripture, and you do otherwise, it is sin.


So , you obey the passage of the Scriptures that state to put to death those that break the Sabbath ? I doubt it . It would certainly be in the news . You obviously allow yourself to pick and choose which commands *you* are allowed to break but do not allow others the same right . By your own words , you are in deliberate sin by refusing to obey this particular command .

Of course , you have reasons to disobey this very *clear* command . Others may not even consider the very *vague* idea of assembly to be a command at all . For *me* the context of the letter that contains the passage makes it clear to *not* be a command in the way that people present it - as "do not murder" . In fact , it is ony a command in its sentence structure . Like someone saying "Take care" . It is in the *form* of a command but not a command .


If I obey God, i am not attempting to get to heaven by my works, its simple obedience.


We aren't talking about obeying the Lord . We are discussing obeying the Law - the laws of the Scriptures . I don't consider obeying the Lord as attempting to obtain righteousnes through works . I didn't even imply such .



Was Abraham attempting to work his way to heaven when he obeyed God?


Abraham obeyed the Lord - not the Scriptures . Paul even states that the Law came 400 years after Abraham . But , you say that Abraham obeyed the Scriptures . You must be saying that . Since we are talking about obeying the Scriptures for obtaining righteousness , the only way that your question can apply is if you are stating that Abraham was attempting to obey a passage of Scripture and not by hearing from the Lord .

Again , those few Jews coming in to have the Gentiles be circumcized were only desiring them to obey the Scriptures . But , Paul had a huge problem with that . Paul didn't equate obeying the Lord with obeying the Scriptures . You are doing the same as those few Jews if you attempt to place a law of the Scriptures on people simply because it is from the Scriptures .


In addition, I do not have the perfect formula for the proper form and function of a Church; I still have a very long way to go! :bow:


Ok then . So , you don't disaprove of those that would call this forum their "church" . If you do not have the perfect formula , you wouldn't be able to know if this is not an acceptable form of fellowship for them or not . That is good . This seems to be a result of miscommunication .


All I am trying to do is encourage people to check with God and make sure they are obeying him. :prayer:

Ok . THAT is all I want as well . I want myself and others to know the Lord and not be under yokes from other humans .

[2+2=5]

In the end , we desire the same thing . But , I will address the items before the end , first .

I don't wish to quarrel . I do desire to point a few things out from my pov .
In the end i too hope we all agree! And i have no desire for quarrling as well.

So , you obey the passage of the Scriptures that state to put to death those that break the Sabbath ? I doubt it . It would certainly be in the news . You obviously allow yourself to pick and choose which commands *you* are allowed to break but do not allow others the same right . By your own words , you are in deliberate sin by refusing to obey this particular command .
Of course , you have reasons to disobey this very *clear* command . Others may not even consider the very *vague* idea of assembly to be a command at all . For *me* the context of the letter that contains the passage makes it clear to *not* be a command in the way that people present it - as "do not murder" . In fact , it is ony a command in its sentence structure . Like someone saying "Take care" . It is in the *form* of a command but not a command .
We aren't talking about obeying the Lord . We are discussing obeying the Law - the laws of the Scriptures . I don't consider obeying the Lord as attempting to obtain righteousnes through works . I didn't even imply such .Abraham obeyed the Lord - not the Scriptures . Paul even states that the Law came 400 years after Abraham . But , you say that Abraham obeyed the Scriptures . You must be saying that . Since we are talking about obeying the Scriptures for obtaining righteousness , the only way that your question can apply is if you are stating that Abraham was attempting to obey a passage of Scripture and not by hearing from the Lord .
Again , those few Jews coming in to have the Gentiles be circumcized were only desiring them to obey the Scriptures . But , Paul had a huge problem with that . Paul didn't equate obeying the Lord with obeying the Scriptures . You are doing the same as those few Jews if you attempt to place a law of the Scriptures on people simply because it is from the Scriptures .

I believe we are no longer under the Law, but under grace. (isn't that original:P)
And I will stop there because I am painfully aware of my lack of articulation skills.
But I will just say, I think our seeming difference of opinion is that I take the whole “all things are lawful for me” very conservatively.


Ok then . So , you don't disaprove of those that would call this forum their "church" . If you do not have the perfect formula , you wouldn't be able to know if this is not an acceptable form of fellowship for them or not . That is good . This seems to be a result of miscommunication .
I think that if CF is the sum-total of your interaction with the church than you are missing out on a lot of blessings. You lose so much when you interact with someone online, not just tone and facial features but many other things.

Ok . THAT is all I want as well . I want myself and others to know the Lord and not be under yokes from other humans .
Perfectly correct. :thumbsup:

[Count]

Going back to your example ... If you are refraining from murder simply because the Scriptures say so , it is attempting to gain righteousness by works . If you are refraining from murder because of a relationship with the Lord and the changed life because of that relationship , then this example does not fit my reply . To say that "assembling" ( whatever you mean by that ) is necessary would be saying that it is necessary for salvation . If it is not necessary , there would be no problem with others not doing what you do .


Amen! I couldn't agree more.

[Count]

does that mean the Master cannot use us?!

No, absolutely not, but does it mean that you are being used by the Master?

As for the church, yes you are right, the CF is not a church. However, what most of us think of church today, is far away from what really the church is.

You said that you are experiencing a churchlife. Amen brother. But the way you directed the questions to the "uchurched", was not so appropriate, I think.

You know, christianity is not a matter of efforts or doing the right things and not doing the wrong ones. Christianity is a matter of revelation, a matter of life. So, if you have been given the light to see some things, it has not be given to you because of your abilities to see or understand, but because of His mercy and love. So, if He did it with you, don't you think that He is not capable of doing the same thing with others, who by the way, He loves so much, as much as He loves you?

[Count]

First things first!

If God commands something in scripture, and you do otherwise, it is sin. If I obey God, i am not attempting to get to heaven by my works, its simple obedience.


Yes, your are right, if God commands sth in scripture and you do otherwise, it is a sin, but at the same time, if you do something just because the scripture say it, it is also a sin. Yes, it is a sin, because it is nothing but an imitation. There is imitation for all spiritual things, an imitation of life, an imtitation of love, imitation of obedience, and so on. As a result, we have the sin of selfrightousness. Because if we do somethign out of imitation, when we see someone else not doing this, we will judge him/her. If we do somthing out of love, we will affect others' lives even without having to talk at all.

[Count]

First things first!


All I am trying to do is encourage people to check with God and make sure they are obeying him. :prayer:

No, brother, I think you are wrong. It is not your responsibility to make sure if others are obeying Him. Make sure you are obeying Him, not others. I repeat, it's a matter of the Master and the believer, alone. If you want to help, just pray for them, and let the Lord tell you how to encourage them. I'm pretty sure that that kind of encouragment is not the one you think of today. I hope that you may see it one day.

[Count]

Abraham obeyed the Lord - not the Scriptures . Paul even states that the Law came 400 years after Abraham . But , you say that Abraham obeyed the Scriptures . You must be saying that . Since we are talking about obeying the Scriptures for obtaining righteousness , the only way that your question can apply is if you are stating that Abraham was attempting to obey a passage of Scripture and not by hearing from the Lord .

Again , those few Jews coming in to have the Gentiles be circumcized were only desiring them to obey the Scriptures . But , Paul had a huge problem with that . Paul didn't equate obeying the Lord with obeying the Scriptures . You are doing the same as those few Jews if you attempt to place a law of the Scriptures on people simply because it is from the Scriptures .



Ok . THAT is all I want as well . I want myself and others to know the Lord and not be under yokes from other humans .

Wow! Thank you brother, thank you very much. That is encouragment.

[Count]

Do you have an Elder that can encourage you, etc?

Do I have to have an elder to encourage me. Isn't enough for a simple brother to encourage me?

By the way, it is obvious that you have some elders in your church. Can you tell me why do you have the elders? Be careful, if you answer me that it's the scriptures that speak about elders, you have the wrong answer. Do you know why? Because one day you or someone else decided to start e church and they opened the bible, saw what the church look like and they did so. Dear brother, this is an imitation, this is what brother New Winesikn tried to tell you, that this way you are obeying the Scriptures, not the Lord.

If you answer me that you have elders because of your obedience to the Lord, then I am pretty sure that elders appeared in your local church a long time after the church was born. If that hasn't happened, so I think that the matter of elders in your church is a matter of imitation, or obeying the scriptures rather than obeying the Lord.

[2+2=5]

It seems that you think me a bit arrogant Count, it was not my intent in the slightest, please forgive me if i came across as such. :o
But the way you directed the questions to the "uchurched", was not so appropriate, I think.
Forgive me, but the title of the forum is "un-churched/Home churched" so i thought it would avoid confusion if i simply used the terms already given.
Even though you and i know that calling a believer un-churched is meaningless sine if you are a believer you are the called out one/Ecclesia.
No, brother, I think you are wrong. It is not your responsibility to make sure if others are obeying Him.
Forgive me if i came across as the head of the American Inquisition ;)

I repeat, it's a matter of the Master and the believer, alone. If you want to help, just pray for them, and let the Lord tell you how to encourage them.
I am a bit confoozeld by this.. :scratch:
Am I never to verbally encourage another brother?
By the way, it is obvious that you have some elders in your church
Actually, i do not have any Elders in my fellowship, yet.
Do I have to have an elder to encourage me. Isn't enough for a simple brother to encourage me?Absolutely not! An Elder is just a brother who is very mature in the LORD. That being the case they have lots of experience walking with the LORD, which would give their encouragement much depth.

[New_Wineskin]

In the end i too hope we all agree! And i have no desire for quarrling as well.




I believe we are no longer under the Law, but under grace. (isn't that original:P)
And I will stop there because I am painfully aware of my lack of articulation skills.
But I will just say, I think our seeming difference of opinion is that I take the whole “all things are lawful for me” very conservatively.


That completely contradicts this statement from your previous post :
If God commands something in scripture, and you do otherwise, it is sin.


I do not know what you mean by a conservative take on "all things are lawful to me" . But , since you have said that disobeying the laws in the Scriptures is sin but that you are not under the laws of the Scriptures , there is a major problem in there .

Nevertheless , *I* am not under the law either which includes the law of assembly that people continue to demand like those demanding Gentiles to be circumcized .



I think that if CF is the sum-total of your interaction with the church than you are missing out on a lot of blessings. You lose so much when you interact with someone online, not just tone and facial features but many other things.


I don't see the Lord giving more blessings to those that do this rather than doing that .


I am glad that we agree on the major point .

[halifaxhoney]

I have different reasons for not attending church.

I'd like to find one on my bus route, I'd like to find one with people who actually want to be there. The church that my family goes to is full of people who just go thinking wow here are some brownie points that will get me into heaven.

The people here at CF want to be here and they are good people. For now this is where I choose to fellowship.

[2+2=5]

That completely contradicts this statement from your previous post :
When I say conservatively as in All things are lawful=Things that would other wise not cause a brother to stumble. There are things we should not do and would be sin, unless the LORD tells us otherwise. *but* that is to be the exception and never the norm.



I don't see the Lord giving more blessings to those that do this rather than doing that .
I believe fellowship with a brother through a computer screen is not nearly as intimate and encouraging as face to face.

My whole point of this thread was to challenge those who do not fellowship with believers because they were offended or something of that nature and not because the LORD told them so.

I will concede that the LORD could have told you—New_wineskin—not to, but once again, that is to be the exception and not the norm. (I probably should have said that at the very beginning.)

[New_Wineskin]

I believe fellowship with a brother through a computer screen is not nearly as intimate and encouraging as face to face.

My whole point of this thread was to challenge those who do not fellowship with believers because they were offended or something of that nature and not because the LORD told them so.

I will concede that the LORD could have told you—New_wineskin—not to, but once again, that is to be the exception and not the norm. (I probably should have said that at the very beginning.)

Ok . That is great . Thanks , for your patience with me . I am definitely not the norm in many ways .