Is the Church of Christ Semi-Pelagian?

[Gold Dragon]

1) Do all CoC chuches reject Faith Alone?
2) Is the CoC requirement of baptism Semi-Pelagian?

This claim has been made that I don't quite agree with and I was wondering if I could get some CoC views on this.

Thanks.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Not all CoC churches require baptism. There is no central doctrinal authrity governing the CoC so you really can't lump them into all one group. The seemingly defining point is the abscence of instruments in worship and even that isn't universal in the CoC. Most that I know anything about do teach the requirement of baptism but it is not taught in all churches. I know more that teach baptism as a non-requirement but a really good idea than I do that allow muscial worship.

[WesWoodell]

Semi-whatagen?


I'm a church of Christ minister - we teach what Jesus and His apostles taught.

[aggie03]

Pelagius was a man who disagreed with the idea of original sin and thought that man kind was free to choose to do either right or wrong. What do you mean by semi-pelagian?

I would also like to echo the fact that you are not going to be dealing with a denomination called the "church of Christ" in this forum...though there is one that exists. I believe that everyone in this forum to whom your post is addressed are merely Christians who are members of autonomous congregation who have chosen to use this God-given description as provided by the Scriptures (Romans 16:16).

[aggie03]

???

[Mrs. Enigma]

Normal, regular coC's teach that you must be immersed to obtain forgiveness and salvation, and tend to only recognize other coC members as Christians.
Is that the answer you were wanting to know?
My dad has been a coC preacher my whole life, and that is what the coC's in this area are like.

[aggie03]

Normal, regular coC's teach that you must be immersed to obtain forgiveness and salvation, and tend to only recognize other coC members as Christians.
Is that the answer you were wanting to know?
My dad has been a coC preacher my whole life, and that is what the coC's in this area are like.

"churches of Christ" shouldn't teach anything. They are nothing more than congregations of saints when they assemble together. Individuals Christians are the ones who teach things; the assembly is simply that, an assembly :)

[Mrs. Enigma]

"churches of Christ" shouldn't teach anything. They are nothing more than congregations of saints when they assemble together. Individuals Christians are the ones who teach things; the assembly is simply that, an assembly :)

I don't really know what you mean. Churches of Christ teach all kinds of things, at least all of the ones I have been to.
When the saints assemble, they go to Bible class and the teacher teaches them, or they sit and listen to the minister teach them.

[Frame1520]

Lets take some time to define churches of christ.

There are many types, although when you specifically say "Churches of Christ", the main differences are music with or without instruments. There are Churches of Christ that have instrument worship and ones that do not.

As mentioned earlier, there is no "church of christ" denomination, although, the United Church of Christ is a breakoff that has gone more liberal in the doctrine they teach, and I don't agree with all of their interpretation of the bible. However, more people than not who attend UCoC's are not that liberal. There are just a few who stand out.

I would disagree that churches of christ consider only those from churches of christ or baptized there are true christians. We consider ourselves christians only, but not the only christians. Most other denominations only differ in 1 or 2 areas in doctrinal beliefs. We believe that baptism is essential for salvation, and is for the remission of sins. But to achieve salvation is not thru baptism alone.

Churches of Christ read the bible and take the bible for what it says. Nothing more or nothing less. I hope this somewhat answers the question, as Wes and Aggie03, I agree with you both wholeheartedly.

[Silent Enigma]

I would disagree that churches of christ consider only those from churches of christ or baptized there are true christians. We consider ourselves christians only, but not the only christians.

So would you consider bapsists to be Christians as well?

[Frame1520]

The question with baptists is "why were you baptised?" Most baptists would say that it is for the forgiveness of sins. But their denominational leaders would say its not for that. But then others would say that it depends on what the person who baptized believed!

The person needs to understand that it is for the forgivness of sins. They need to have a clear conscience of God. If they are not certain that they were baptized for that reason, I would encourage them to be baptized again. So, I suppose the answer is yes, if their reasons and beliefs are scriptural.

[Mrs. Enigma]

The question with baptists is "why were you baptised?" Most baptists would say that it is for the forgiveness of sins. But their denominational leaders would say its not for that. But then others would say that it depends on what the person who baptized believed!

The person needs to understand that it is for the forgivness of sins. They need to have a clear conscience of God. If they are not certain that they were baptized for that reason, I would encourage them to be baptized again. So, I suppose the answer is yes, if their reasons and beliefs are scriptural.

I am curious as to how you can say that the church of Christ are not the only Christians, when as far as I can tell you are giving the standard coC answers.
So, you are saying that God only shows His grace to people who fully comprehend that an immersion is when they are actually saved?

[Frame1520]

I'm saying that immersion is a part of salvation. Its a very important part, as the bible lays out what it is for, and why we do it. I can't honestly sit here and say a baptist is going to hell because they were baptized but the person doing it didn't tell them it was for the remission of sins. There is some degree of personal responsibility here though as well; to read the scriptures and take everything into context...Not just believe what someone tells you, but what God tells you.

I see what you are saying here, but there are a lot of variables involved. God can do what he wants and show grace to whomever he wants. I know that is a generic answer, but thats the just of it. I do say though, that baptism, is essential because of what it is for, not just what it "symbolizes" as many will argue. The bible tells us that baptism is for the remission of sins...So its a double edged sword, because if you look at it from another perspective, you could say that someone being baptized as a symbolism, or not being baptized at all is disobeying God's word.

So I see what you are saying, and I'm not sure I have a definitive answer for it! Is being in the CoC the only way to heaven? No, following God's word is the only way to heaven. That is all I can think to say. :)

[OleAg]

Such big words, I had to look it up. Don't know about ALL CofC, so many have been liberalizing in the last few years, but we mostly reject "faith alone".

As a former Baptist, I certainly understand that faith alone doctrine...but, it can't hold up under some simple common sense examination.

Several lines of thought could be taken, but I have settled on 1st Pet. 3:21 as the best "The like figure (what had he just been discussing?) whereunto even baptism doth now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD) emphasis added, italics in KJV.

Simply put: God commands baptism FOR remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and if we obey and show a good conscience toward him...we can be saved.

If Peter says baptism saves us - and he clearly does - then it is true and it can not contridict John 3:16, my old Baptist favorite verse.

Question: If GOD sets the task, is it a work? Hint: 2Kings 5:14.

Bye for now.

[aggie03]

I don't really know what you mean.

Hopefully I can help clear things up, then. :)

Churches of Christ teach all kinds of things, at least all of the ones I have been to.

Firstly, I suppose that part of the problem is that we are probably using the same word in different ways. This is the problem with human language - meaning is not in the words, the meaning is in the people. Until we give the same words the same meanings, we will never understand what the other person is trying to say.

It seems to me that when you use the phrase "Church of Christ" you are either referring to a denomiation with official teachings, or some kind of a group that issues edicts concerning the doctrines of the Bible. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken :).

When I use the phrase "church of Christ" (please note the lower case 'c') I am not talking about the same thing listed above. I am simply talking about an assembly of people. There is no creed or manual and there is no official teaching that is issued from the group. This is simply a group of people, who are Christians, who have come together to worship God.

When the saints assemble, they go to Bible class and the teacher teaches them

I disagree with this. When the saints assemble, they go to the assembly. Whether or not they study the Bible or just all sit and twiddle their thumbs, they are merely going to an assembly. This might seem strange, but I really think that there is a difference. I never read about an official time set aside in the New Testament referred to as "Bible Class" or "Sunday School" or whatever else it is called. But I do read about people coming together. They did all sorts of different things when they came together including singing, praying and learning about God.

Now when they have assembled together, if they decide to study the Scriptures, that's great! When someone stands in front of the group and expounds on what they believe a passage of the Scritpures teach, that person is in no way speaking for the entire group. They are speaking from what they believe. This is not a doctrinal statement for the entire group, and anyone there may disagree with the things that are being said.

or they sit and listen to the minister teach them.

This is the same thing as above. When the people assemble, if they choose to have one person speak at length, that's great, too! But this person is still not speaking for everyone there - they are only speaking for themselves. They are not issuing official teachings and they are not "teaching" for the entire group - they are simply stating what they believe the Bible teaches. Anyone there may disagree with anything that is said.

This is why I have said that the assembly doesn't teach anything. Individual Christians teach things, not the group as a whole. I cannot speak for what anyone believes other than myself unless they specifically tell me what they believe.

I hope that this helps some!

[DiscipleOfIAm]

With the coC being autonymous (sp?) and each congregation their own and answering only to God and Scripture, how can anyone judge or say what the "denomination" believes or practices? Especially since there is no denomination actually. I suppose you can make generalizations, but just because one particular congregation practices, says, or does something, doesn't mean they all do.

Here is a website that will answer a lot of questions about coC. www.church-of-christ.org

I have heard people say that coC believes they are the only Christians and everyone else is not. But, I have never experienced someone from coC stating that or practicing that. I grew up in an independant RM Christian Church. We hold basically the same beliefs as coC from what I can see, except we do use musical instruments in worship service. But, we have no denomination, we practice and follow RM beliefs, all those things. I cannot see a difference except the music part. coC originated from the RM to begin with.

I'm just trying to point out that just because one congregation somewhere did something or got a bad rep, doesn't mean they are all that way. Also, keep in mind there are other groups that call themselves "Church of Christ" that are not "church of Christ". I know of a local church near me that is 100% speaking in tounges pentecostal and their name ends with Church of Christ. They are not in any way close to the coC. Plus, there is the United Church of Christ. You'll remember their commercials a few years back that sparked contraversy about homosexuals in the church. They are very liberal group of folks. So, there can be some confusion there, too.

I do like the thread. It is interesting to read everyone's views and experiences with coC. Funny how they are all different and some the same.

God Bless!

[MrJim]

This is an informative thread.

[ChurchofChrist]

John Chapter 3 states "that unless you are born again of the water and the spirit you will not enter the kingdom of God"

Also in every conversion story in the New Testament baptizm is involved. If you are interested post a reply and i will supply the verses for every story.

The Church of Christ is a direct copy of the church the apostles started in the New Testament. Where the Bible is quiet (such as musical instruments) we are quiet. Where the Bible speaks volumes (such as baptism) we speak volumes.

As far as some Churches of Christs that dont follow these commandments and have instruments i have yet to encounter one in my area but i'm sure there could be some who have strayed from the truth. However i encourage everyone to read the Bible and see what God's church is really about

[woman.at.the.well]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ here is a pretty good explanation of the ministers, etc as believed in the CoCs, etc in italics. That link also contains a pretty inclusive description of the CoC and similar churches (such as DoC, etc).

Preacher, Evangelist, or Minister

The Preacher, Evangelist or Minister prepares and delivers sermons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon), teaches Bible classes, performs weddings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedding), preaches or evangelizes the gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel), and performs baptisms. This position is typically paid to allow the evangelist to disentangle himself from secular employment and focus on studies. (People associated with the Churches of Christ do not use the title "pastor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastor)" to refer to their pulpit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulpit) minister, as this term is held to refer to the same position as "elder" or "bishop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop)" in the Bible, which they feel requires a certain set of qualifications outlined above.) Typically these ministers are not 'ordained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordination)' as is the tradition of many denominational organizations, and do not use the salutation 'Reverend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverend)' or 'Rev.' before their name, professing that only God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God) should be recognized as Reverend.

Here is some other info that may help you with your questions in italics as well:

Specific teachings

Churches of Christ mostly agree with the theology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology) of conservative Evangelical Christian groups, believing in Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) as the Son of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God), the death of Jesus by crucifixion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion) as atonement for sin, and most other basic Christian teachings. However, there are many specific practices that distinguish them from these other bodies.
The Church of Christ believes that the organization and structure of the church was laid down by Jesus Christ himself through his apostles in the form of the New Testament. Since this church has no headquarters and each congregation is independent, the teachings may vary somewhat, but overall there is a remarkable degree of uniformity among Churches of Christ in each region. The common variances are over the institution of Bible classes, the method that the Lord's supper is served (whether the fruit of the vine is served in one cup or many), the role of women in public worship, and whether ministers should be paid professionals or serve on a volunteer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteer) basis.
When a "faithful" member dies, he or she does not "go" to heaven or hell. The person is not "sentenced" by Christ to heaven or hell until "Judgement Day" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgement). There is no means of earthly or spiritual intercession for the soul of one who has died. There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous (Acts 24:15) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%2024:15;&version=31;).
Political endorsements are highly discouraged, if not condemned, as members are expected to make their own choices for suitable political leaders.

And finally, some information on CoC viewpoint of Salvation according to wikipedia in italics:

Theory of Salvation (Soteriology)

The requirements for salvation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvation) are commonly presented in the following steps:

Hearing (the Word of God)
Believing (said Word)
Repenting (of one's sins)
Confessing (that Jesus Christ is Lord (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord))
Being baptized (by immersion).
Continued faithfulness is enjoined because the Church of Christ denies the doctrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine) of perseverance of the saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints).Because of the high value attached to the necessity of a believer's baptism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believer%27s_baptism) by immersion, Churches of Christ are sometimes said to believe in "baptismal regeneration." Members deny that baptism without faith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith) can bring salvation, but point out that the Bible does command believers to be baptized (Acts 2:38 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%202:38;&version=31;), etc.) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:15-16;&version=31;). In most if not all respects, their teaching on a believer's baptism mirrors that of the Independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Christian_Churches/Churches_of_Christ#Baptism).

Now mind you, that is from wikipedia and not from CoC itself. But I thought you might want another source besides the one listed below for the CoC website.

I hope this helped at least some.

[WesWoodell]

So would you consider bapsists to be Christians as well?

Sure - if God does.

Guess we won't know for sure until we get there, eh? ;)

I believe anyone who shows true faith and repentance is probably saved, and I believe we should do our best to teach everyone in accordance with what God has taught us. I have many friends who had been taught to 'pray Jesus into their hearts,' and most of them have since been taught that saying the sinner's prayer (while it is a good prayer) is not what that apostles had people to do who wanted to become Christians. They baptized them, which is what I believe we should to today.

[underthesouthercross]

If you are saying that these churches are only restricting people then thats not correct because l went to church for a few month before l got Baptized, so that is not true.
god loves all that come to him

[ChurchofChrist]

John chapter 3 MUST BE BAPTIZED

Its clearly what the Bible teaches. In every instance in the Bible when the apostles taught some they were baptized its THAT important. The only way to get into the Kingdom is the way God said himself and thats not by praying in your heart its through baptism and livign a life of rightousness and following the Bible

[WesWoodell]

Oh, and yes, most CoC's would be considered Palagian or semi-Palagian.

(Gotta love school)

:)

[aggie03]

Oh, and yes, most CoC's would be considered Palagian or semi-Palagian.

(Gotta love school)

:)

I did some reading a while ago on Pelagius, or whatever his name was, and can't remember what it was - you mind posting a definition of the term in the OP? I would really appreciate it :)