Attention: I have a question

[Music4Hym777]

Okay ya'll,

I've been doing a lot of research on the "Jesus Seminar" from an academic stand point, but never really from a biblical one!

What do you all think?

[Protoevangel]

Okay ya'll,

I've been doing a lot of research on the "Jesus Seminar" from an academic stand point, but never really from a biblical one!

What do you all think?Satan's work.

Ban me.

[Music4Hym777]

Satan's work.

Ban me.

Is that what you really think? It has some pretty good arguments in it....like the raising of Lazarus.

[SPALATIN]

Okay ya'll,

I've been doing a lot of research on the "Jesus Seminar" from an academic stand point, but never really from a biblical one!

What do you all think?

Dan is not too far off Monica. the Jesus Seminar is by far one of the most liberal groups in the world of religion. They definitely subvert the truth to justify their needs. I think that Peter Jennings has probably used their propaganda to do his documentaries.

[Music4Hym777]

Dan is not too far off Monica. the Jesus Seminar is by far one of the most liberal groups in the world of religion. They definitely subvert the truth to justify their needs. I think that Peter Jennings has probably used their propaganda to do his documentaries.

This may be the liberal in me, but I still dont understand how the greatest miracle in the book of John (raising of Lazarus) is not recorded in any other book. I swear, I am earnestly searching for the truth on this one, not looking for a debate.

[Protoevangel]

The Jesus seminar assumes to know what Jesus did and did not say, they make God out to be a liar. They assume they are judge and the Bible, Jesus, God are in the dock (on trial). Even if they find God innocent, they have placed themselves in judgement. Yes, whether wittingly or not, they do the work of the adversary here on earth.

[Protoevangel]

This may be the liberal in me, but I still dont understand how the greatest miracle in the book of John (raising of Lazarus) is not recorded in any other book. I swear, I am earnestly searching for the truth on this one, not looking for a debate.I appreciate that you are genuinly searching. I will try to answer your question in a more comprehensive fashon tonight, if I have a chance, if I am not banned, and if someone else doesn't do so before I.

[CrossWiseMag]

This may be the liberal in me, but I still dont understand how the greatest miracle in the book of John (raising of Lazarus) is not recorded in any other book

Because when God inspired Matthew, Mark and Luke, he knew John would be including the story in his account?

This is all about pre-suppositions. The Jesus Seminar pre-supposes that the Bible is not true. A Christian (when not sinning) pre-supposes it is true. The question you posed above has its foundation in unbelief. And we all have unbelief at one time or another: this is not a personal "shot."

Let's put it another way: how many times does God have to tell you something for you to believe it's true?

[Protoevangel]

The Jesus Seminar denies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Why? Because of the evidence? No! There is no known archeological evidence that could help us identify the place. The only information we have about the place Jesus was born is what Scripture tells us. So, how can they know it is wrong? They deny that Jesus was born in Bethlehem because they believe that any incident that is a fulfillment of an Prophecy was made up, because Prophecy is miraculous and miracles cannot happen! They say the same thing about anything recorded in the gospels that is supernatural. NOT based on evidence, only based on the presupposition that miricles cannot happen.

[Jesus was] "a secular sage who satirized the pious and championed the poor..."
"Jesus was perhaps the first stand-up Jewish comic."
"Starting a new religion would have been the farthest thing from his mind"
(Quotes attributable to Robert Funk, founder, Jesus Seminar)

Jesus didn't rise from the dead? He didn't work miracles? He didn't give us the greatest teaching in the world? Not according to the Jesus Seminar! No, my friend, he was just a stand-up comic. :thumbsup:

Note, the Jesus Seminar doesn't start with historical evidence; it starts only with presuppositions that it makes no attempt to prove. They don't conclude that the Bible is inaccurate. That's where they begin!!! This is not history; its secular philosophy. Their bias arbitrarily eliminates options before they even begin. The conclusions of Funk and the Jesus Seminar aren’t inferable from the evidence. The evidence supports the Biblical record.

Satan's work. Avoid them.

Like Willy will probably say... they probably have a lot you could learn from them. But I will add that what they have for you to "learn" is spiritual poison. Poison I wish I had never had the misfortune to taste.

[cenimo]

Just a bunch of eggheads using something with the name Jesus in it to try and fake people out.

[RedneckAnglican]

I would suggest the "Alpha" course done by the Episcopalians...It is a good course and will take you through some of the ways to see the "proof" that Jesus was real (accounts by Josephus and the like)...It's religion taken back down to the basics...and it will help answer those questions from a Christian prospective instead of the "Secular Humanist" side...

[Willy]

Jesus Seminar is nothing to worry about and certainly nothing worry of demonizing. They are not the anti-Christ. They are not heretics. They are faithful Christians who might just take themselves a bit too seriously. Voting on whether Jesus really said certain things is a bit much for me personally. Frankly, the church has always depended upon the witness of the apostles and the early church. Our faith is in many ways the early church's faith. Did they have certain audiences and certain messages to proclaim to certain situations? Yes. Did they tailor their message for their audiences? Obviously. Does that mean that Jesus probably didn't say everything that the red-letter versions of the Bible indicate? Most likely. But so what? What they did is what preachers do. They speak "the word" to their context. It's what every generation does.

[SPALATIN]

Jesus Seminar is nothing to worry about and certainly nothing worry of demonizing. They are not the anti-Christ. They are not heretics.

Excuse me? You are kidding right Willy? Jesus Seminar is not Christian! They are very much heretics and if you don't know the difference perhaps you better do a further check on what you believe about Christ as well.

They are faithful Christians who might just take themselves a bit too seriously. Voting on whether Jesus really said certain things is a bit much for me personally. Frankly, the church has always depended upon the witness of the apostles and the early church. Our faith is in many ways the early church's faith. Did they have certain audiences and certain messages to proclaim to certain situations? Yes. Did they tailor their message for their audiences? Obviously. Does that mean that Jesus probably didn't say everything that the red-letter versions of the Bible indicate? Most likely. But so what? What they did is what preachers do. They speak "the word" to their context. It's what every generation does.

They dispute the very essence of the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. Their very movement is loathesome and they can not be considered as Christian.

Willy, your liberalism shines through when you make statements like this. I will not ever consider coming to a table where you serve communion as your witness is not one I want to condone.

[KagomeShuko]

You want my opinion on the Jesus Seminar? :sick:

I've read about it and what they do. . .it's AWFUL! They try to disprove things of the Bible, basically. Why does anybody need to do that?

I read one article where they debated over what Jesus said, and it was just a MINOR change in the words! It's completely stupid. . .

The Bible is the Bible. . .

Yep, even little ol' Liberal ELCA me feels this way about it.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Willy]

Excuse me? You are kidding right Willy? Jesus Seminar is not Christian! They are very much heretics and if you don't know the difference perhaps you better do a further check on what you believe about Christ as well.



They dispute the very essence of the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. Their very movement is loathesome and they can not be considered as Christian.

Willy, your liberalism shines through when you make statements like this. I will not ever consider coming to a table where you serve communion as your witness is not one I want to condone.
We would still welcome you.

[Protoevangel]

You want my opinion on the Jesus Seminar? :sick:

I've read about it and what they do. . .it's AWFUL! They try to disprove things of the Bible, basically. Why does anybody need to do that?

I read one article where they debated over what Jesus said, and it was just a MINOR change in the words! It's completely stupid. . .

The Bible is the Bible. . .

Yep, even little ol' Liberal ELCA me feels this way about it.

Stein Auf!
BridgetMaybe you aren't quite as liberal as you have been led to believe? ;)

[SPALATIN]

Me thinks that Willy is teetering off the very left ledge of the faith. He is almost so liberal the liberals won't want him.

[Willy]

Me thinks that Willy is teetering off the very left ledge of the faith. He is almost so liberal the liberals won't want him.
You're still welcome to our table even if you disagree with me.

[SPALATIN]

You're still welcome to our table even if you disagree with me.

No thanks. I don't relish taking the communion to my judgement.

[Protoevangel]

No thanks. I don't relish taking the communion to my judgement.It is not you I would be worried about Scott. It is those who hold their own judgement above the Word.

[Willy]

No thanks. I don't relish taking the communion to my judgement.
Thank God the meal is a "foretaste of the feast to come." The feast welcomes you and even heretic liberal pinko commies like me.

[Protoevangel]

Thank God the meal is a "foretaste of the feast to come." The feast welcomes you and even heretic liberal pinko commies like me.Pinko commie? Well, that changes everything. No more arguing amongst brothers here; you're going straight to hell.









Yes, I am just kidding...

[SPALATIN]

Pinko commie? Well, that changes everything. No more arguing amongst brothers here; you're going straight to hell. :P









Yes, I am just kidding...

Dan,

you could have made the last remark just a little smaller. Those MODS have exceptional sight. They can see through just about anything (Except lead of course.)

[SPALATIN]

Pinko commie? Well, that changes everything. No more arguing amongst brothers here; you're going straight to hell. :P









Yes, I am just kidding...

Could you make that last part a little smaller? ;)

[Protoevangel]

Really, i wish i could. Instead, i del'td the razz smilie.
Maybe someone will still miss the "just kidding" remark and let us have some giggles at their expence. :D

[Music4Hym777]

Some of us are just crazy conservative! I am partially one of us, but have a ways to go back to my conservativeness (the Jesus seminar took a toll on my conservativeness, just wait til youre calling parts of the Bible pious fiction, thats when youre extreme liberal!)

[revjpw]

Thank God the meal is a "foretaste of the feast to come." The feast welcomes you and even heretic liberal pinko commies like me.

Too bad the "meal" you speak of is not the Lord's Supper. I'll stick with that.

[Willy]

Even you who thinks that it's not the Lord's Supper we celebrate week after week are welcome. Since it is the meal that anticipates the final future I want to live as if the final future is in part true now. And if that's the case, our primary calling is hospitality to a broken world that is redeemed in Jesus. "All are welcome, friend and stranger."

[revjpw]

Even you who thinks that it's not the Lord's Supper we celebrate week after week are welcome. Since it is the meal that anticipates the final future I want to live as if the final future is in part true now. And if that's the case, our primary calling is hospitality to a broken world that is redeemed in Jesus. "All are welcome, friend and stranger."

Sounds like it could be a slogan for McDonald's.

[Protoevangel]

Sounds like it could be a slogan for McDonald's.Or BK -- "Have it your way!"

[SemStudent08]

My...how quickly respect for others deteriorates...dimissing someone else's entire church with one demeaning comparison...wow...no wonder I hardly hang around here any more...

[Protoevangel]

SemStudent,

The true disrespect is comming much more subtely than you seem to be able to notice, and from a different source than you think it is.

Who here never participates except to distupt others and cause division? There is your source of disrespect and strife.

Edit:
Oh, it is subtle... The serpent is crafty.

[SPALATIN]

Or BK -- "Have it your way!"

My favorite was the Wendy's Hot and Juicy but that doesn't really apply here does it?:D

[Protoevangel]

My favorite was the Wendy's Hot and Juicy but that doesn't really apply here does it?:DWell... <delete> :doh:

[Willy]

Sounds like it could be a slogan for McDonald's.
Even the employees of my least favorite restaurant are welcome. Even the advertising executives who drive me crazy are welcome. Even the idealogues and the absolutists are welcome. Thank God it is a table of grace and not works.

[ChiRho]

Even the employees of my least favorite restaurant are welcome. Even the advertising executives who drive me crazy are welcome. Even the idealogues and the absolutists are welcome. Thank God it is a table of grace and not works.


Come one, come all! Come to our table! Relax and dine, you, who are weary or cold. This meal is for the oppressed and the distressed; for the weak and the poor; for the pagan, wiccan, muslim, or jew; for the ungodly, agnostic, atheist hindu! Come and partake of our glorious feast, as we pay tribute to our god, by the mark of the beast.

But never, ever call us intolerant!

[SPALATIN]

Come one, come all! Come to our table! Relax and dine, you, who are weary or cold. This meal is for the oppressed and the distressed; for the weak and the poor; for the pagan, wiccan, muslim, or jew; for the ungodly, agnostic, atheist hindu! Come and partake of our glorious feast, as we pay tribute to our god, by the mark of the beast.

But never, ever call us intolerant!

Syncretism reigns supreme. Hey Willy you should call David Benke he would take communion at your table.

[Willy]

Even the tolerant and the intolerant are welcome. I'm not sure why the Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Atheist would want to sit at the table. But I suppose if they wanted to, they'd be welcome, too. Can you see Jesus at the Last Supper sharing the bread and wine of the Passover meal saying: Alright, you can eat this bread and drink this wine if you really, really, really, really believe that this bread and wine ontologically are me. If you don't really, really, really believe this, then step outside, because my death is not for you. This meal is all about having the "right" understanding of what is happening. You all are familiar with Greek concepts, so we want you to have the Greek Platonic understanding of reality. Bread is a substance, you know, that has an essence that can be gotten at only through right understanding. Got all this folks? Now if you do, eat and drink. If not, then wait until you got it all figured out. There will be some people who will appear in church history who will have it all figured out. They'll help you. They'll keep you from syncretism." Thanks goodness he said, "Eat this; it's my body. Drink this; it's my blood. Participating in this is participating in the very thing that I'm doing on the cross." Paul put it this way: "when you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." It's all about his death (a theology of the cross). It's all about his coming (a foretaste of the feast to come).

[ChiRho]

Even the tolerant and the intolerant are welcome. I'm not sure why the Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Atheist would want to sit at the table. But I suppose if they wanted to, they'd be welcome, too. Can you see Jesus at the Last Supper sharing the bread and wine of the Passover meal saying: Alright, you can eat this bread and drink this wine if you really, really, really, really believe that this bread and wine ontologically are me. If you don't really, really, really believe this, then step outside, because my death is not for you. This meal is all about having the "right" understanding of what is happening. You all are familiar with Greek concepts, so we want you to have the Greek Platonic understanding of reality. Bread is a substance, you know, that has an essence that can be gotten at only through right understanding. Got all this folks? Now if you do, eat and drink. If not, then wait until you got it all figured out. There will be some people who will appear in church history who will have it all figured out. They'll help you. They'll keep you from syncretism." Thanks goodness he said, "Eat this; it's my body. Drink this; it's my blood. Participating in this is participating in the very thing that I'm doing on the cross." Paul put it this way: "when you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." It's all about his death (a theology of the cross). It's all about his coming (a foretaste of the feast to come).


That's great. What's it like, ya know...feasting with Satan? As a child of Adam only, I am sure you really do feel a bond with those who are persistant in their denial of Christ. I can imagine what a Christian would truly hear at your "service":

"In our meal of remembrance today, we are serving the timeless, ever requested forbidden-fruit juice. It is drank to help solidify our future eternal destination. Pack light, it's gonna be hot!"

[Protoevangel]

Willy, feed the worldly, worldly food. You will be serving them much more genuinly that way.

[SPALATIN]

Even the tolerant and the intolerant are welcome. I'm not sure why the Muslim, Jew, Hindu, or Atheist would want to sit at the table. But I suppose if they wanted to, they'd be welcome, too. Can you see Jesus at the Last Supper sharing the bread and wine of the Passover meal saying: Alright, you can eat this bread and drink this wine if you really, really, really, really believe that this bread and wine ontologically are me. If you don't really, really, really believe this, then step outside, because my death is not for you. This meal is all about having the "right" understanding of what is happening. You all are familiar with Greek concepts, so we want you to have the Greek Platonic understanding of reality. Bread is a substance, you know, that has an essence that can be gotten at only through right understanding. Got all this folks? Now if you do, eat and drink. If not, then wait until you got it all figured out. There will be some people who will appear in church history who will have it all figured out. They'll help you. They'll keep you from syncretism." Thanks goodness he said, "Eat this; it's my body. Drink this; it's my blood. Participating in this is participating in the very thing that I'm doing on the cross." Paul put it this way: "when you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." It's all about his death (a theology of the cross). It's all about his coming (a foretaste of the feast to come).

The point being is that no Christian who fully appreciates what Christ has done for him is going to want to commune at a table where those who don't fully ascribe to the Creeds and confessions of the church commune. Christ is the head of the true church and he has through his Spirit given the word to the Apostles to give to us. Paul tells the Corinthian and us that we are to examine our lives and confess any sin before going to the table to take Christ's body and blood. If a Christian doesn't believe that this is Christ's body and blood in, with and Under the bread and wine they are taking it to their judgement.

This is what we believe, teach and confess. Anything less than this is NOT acceptable under any means. If this is legalistic in any way than I will eat the proverbial hat. But I don't believe that it is.





God does not tolerate such insolence why should we. Satan is the one who preaches tolerance in this day and age and it is he we should flee from.

[Willy]

Even those who are so bold to know what God thinks and even those who call others names are welcome. Although those who do truly discern the body as they take the Lord's Supper will probably want to leave behind their disregard for the well being of others and the community. It's part of the repentance that the meal of Jesus' self-giving engenders. AFter all, that is what Paul was getting at when he urged those early Christians to discern the body when they were celebrating the Lord's Supper. Some folks were disregarding the needs of others when they were coming together to celebrate the Agape meal. They were only concerned about themselves.

[ChiRho]

Even those who are so bold to know what God thinks and even those who call others names are welcome. Although those who do truly discern the body as they take the Lord's Supper will probably want to leave behind their disregard for the well being of others and the community. It's part of the repentance that the meal of Jesus' self-giving engenders. AFter all, that is what Paul was getting at when he urged those early Christians to discern the body when they were celebrating the Lord's Supper. Some folks were disregarding the needs of others when they were coming together to celebrate the Agape meal. They were only concerned about themselves.

What kind of game are you playing? You say "even those who are so bold to know what God thinks," yet you claim to know what God thinks--and that, apart from Scripture. So how do you know that you are correct?

[Willy]

I never claimed that I know what God thinks. The older I get the more mysterious the reality of God is to me. The Christian claim is that in Jesus we see and experience how God is and what God does. The Bible bears witness to him. It doesn't tell us what God thinks. It bears witness to God. It is transparent to God. That's why it is so important that it be read and preached upon, not obsessed over. The recent violence over the flushing of the Koran down the toilet demonstrates what some folks will do when they become obsessed with holy books, and not the holy God. In the word we experience the Word made flesh who reveals to us the heart of God. But you know what ? Even those who don't get this are welcome to the table.

[ChiRho]

I never claimed that I know what God thinks. The older I get the more mysterious the reality of God is to me. The Christian claim is that in Jesus we see and experience how God is and what God does. The Bible bears witness to him. It doesn't tell us what God thinks. It bears witness to God. It is transparent to God. That's why it is so important that it be read and preached upon, not obsessed over. The recent violence over the flushing of the Koran down the toilet demonstrates what some folks will do when they become obsessed with holy books, and not the holy God. In the word we experience the Word made flesh who reveals to us the heart of God. But you know what ? Even those who don't get this are welcome to the table.


And how do you know this?

[Willy]

Know what?

[ChiRho]

I never claimed that I know what God thinks. The older I get the more mysterious the reality of God is to me. The Christian claim is that in Jesus we see and experience how God is and what God does. The Bible bears witness to him. It doesn't tell us what God thinks. It bears witness to God. It is transparent to God. That's why it is so important that it be read and preached upon, not obsessed over. The recent violence over the flushing of the Koran down the toilet demonstrates what some folks will do when they become obsessed with holy books, and not the holy God. In the word we experience the Word made flesh who reveals to us the heart of God. But you know what ? Even those who don't get this are welcome to the table.


How do you know that it is right to welcome anyone to the table?

[ChiRho]

scratch that..

not anyone, but everyone

[Jim47]

The recent violence over the flushing of the Koran down the toilet demonstrates what some folks will do when they become obsessed with holy books, and not the holy God.


How can you call the Koran a Holy book? The only things Holy are what God makes Holy, not man. :sigh:

[SPALATIN]

How do you know that it is right to welcome anyone to the table?


Sorry I wasn't questioning ChiRho's post here so I moved my answer.

[SPALATIN]

I never claimed that I know what God thinks. The older I get the more mysterious the reality of God is to me. The Christian claim is that in Jesus we see and experience how God is and what God does. The Bible bears witness to him. It doesn't tell us what God thinks. It bears witness to God. It is transparent to God. That's why it is so important that it be read and preached upon, not obsessed over. The recent violence over the flushing of the Koran down the toilet demonstrates what some folks will do when they become obsessed with holy books, and not the holy God. In the word we experience the Word made flesh who reveals to us the heart of God. But you know what ? Even those who don't get this are welcome to the table.

And your definition of "OBSESSED" would be?

We don't obsess over the scriptures but we do care that when God gives us a directive that we follow it as he directed us.