A question about Fr. Seraphim Rose?

[Jason of Wyoming]

I've heard lots of good things about Fr. Rose. And until today, assumed that his books were clearly and entirely within the realm of Orthodoxy.

Then I came across the synaxis press, and found this little book against his work:



FATHER SERAPHIM ROSE AND THE DOGMA OF

REDEMPTION: A STUDY IN NEO-NESTORIANISM

by the late Metropolitan Philaret of New York, Archbishop Vitaly of Canada, Archbishop Lazar of New Ostrog, Bishop Gregory of Manhattan, Bishop Varlaam of Vancouver, Rev. Dr. Michael Azkoul and Dr. George Gabriel.

This book is of considerable importance. It contains the responses of hierarchs of Fr. Seraphim Rose's own jurisdiction. Indeed, the members of ROCOR whose articles appear here are among the only actual theologians in that jurisdiction. The late neo-Gnostic philosopher Fr. Seraphim Rose never fully comprehended Orthodoxy, and never understood Orthodox Christian theology or the holy fathers. His critique against St Antony Khrapovitsky's masterful THE MORAL IDEA OF THE DOGMA OF REDEMPTION more clearly demonstrates this than most of his other scholastic writings. In his critique against St. Antony, Seraphim Rose clearly crosses the line into neo-Nestorian/neo-Monophysitism. This fact is clearly demonstrated by this assembly of learned and skilled Orthodox Christian theologians. Fr Seraphim created great havoc, spiritual devastation and misunderstanding with his mixture of Latin Scholasticism, Gnosticism and theosophical rationalism. In his book, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, he assembled a series of long ago exposed "urban legends," and re-interpreted them with a theosophical rationalism, passing them off as having some sort of "reality." In his critique of Metropolitan St. Antony's work, he demonstrates an utter lack of sound Orthodox Christian theological understanding.

This anthology of responses by outstanding theologians both inside and outside of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCOR) is indispensable to anyone wishing to find their way through the contradictory and conflicting maze of writings in the Orthodox Church in North America today.

$5.00

The site where I got this is here:

http://www.new-ostrog.org/synaxis/

Any thoughts? Thanks.

[Marjorie]

That, in my opinion, is vile slander.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Photios]

This is actually part of a debate about a Mystery. Blessed Seraphim was writing his understanding from what he had read in the Fathers, some of which were early Western Fathers. The opposition seems to be taking it as a strong dogmatic position that is expressed in literal language, which doesn't seem to be his intent on either count.

[Jason of Wyoming]

This is actually part of a debate about a Mystery. Blessed Seraphim was writing his understanding from what he had read in the Fathers, some of which were early Western Fathers. The opposition seems to be taking it as a strong dogmatic position that is expressed in literal language, which doesn't seem to be his intent on either count.

Which mystery? Maybe I should buy the book?

[Orthosdoxa]

Just thought I'd bring this up...

http://www.christianforums.com/t1158796-i-just-have-to-share-this-neat-o-rama-story.html

This story sealed the deal for me as to how I feel about Fr. Seraphim.

[Jason of Wyoming]

My personal thoughts about this (thanks Anonykat for the story):

Fr. Rose may have taught some incorrect doctrines.

Fr. Rose also taught correct doctrines.

Nobody's perfect, even Saints.

The Church doesn't place it's fate in any one theologian.

Take what's true, and leave the rest behind with a grain of salt.

:)

[StChristopherofPalestine]

I'm sure people would say the same thing about Saints of the past that they do about Bl. Seraphim if we had all their writings. But maybe I'm just biased since I feel Bl. Seraphim has helped bring me into Orthodoxy.

[nicodemus]

Fr. Seraphim has meant the world to many Orthodox converts in America and he is widely read in Russia as well. While some of his "after death" writings may be a bit controversial, he told it like it is regarding the syrcretism and relativism of his time.

[xenia]

I love Fr. Seraphim. A dear friend of mine, a monk, knew him personally and can't say enough good things about him. I feel very connected to Fr. Seraphim and ask him to pray for me.

[Akathist]

I havn't read anything by St. Saraphim Rose because my Priest thought it was better for me not to.

I liked the comment that he may have said something that were not Orthodox, but that he likely said many things that were Orthodox.

I will follow the direction of my Priest as he is my Spiritual Father.

[Matrona]

I've been told to stay far away from The Soul After Death, but that most of his other stuff is okay. I ignore him for the most part.

[xenia]

I will follow the direction of my Priest as he is my Spiritual Father.

That's always the best thing to do. :thumbsup:

[taxiarchis]

I can hardly see how Father Seraphim can be classified with the

Nestorians. He is known to have said the "Most Holy Mother of God

Save us" as a prayer rule.

[nicodemus]

I can hardly see how Father Seraphim can be classified with the

Nestorians. He is known to have said the "Most Holy Mother of God

Save us" as a prayer rule.
The holy fathers & mothers are often slandered. St. John Chrysostom, St. John Maximovitch, and countless others endured the same. I know Fr. Seraphim isn't numbered amongst the saints (yet), but it is similar to how people slander Elder Ephraim and others.

[Jason of Wyoming]

nicodemus,

Please know that I wasn't trying to slander Fr. Seraphim Rose. I simply wanted some input about the accusations I found. From what little I've read, I have a lot of respect for him.

[Photini]

The holy fathers & mothers are often slandered. St. John Chrysostom, St. John Maximovitch, and countless others endured the same. I know Fr. Seraphim isn't numbered amongst the saints (yet), but it is similar to how people slander Elder Ephraim and others.
Exactly. I remember one of the first things I read about Elder Ephraim...very very derogatory. And then realized the monastery here in Florida is one the he founded. I was concerned for a while, but as I read the article over again, I noticed how overly-aggressive and disturbing the tone and verbiage was in that article. It was basically spitting venom at Elder Ephraim. I've seen a lot of venom spit at Fr. Seraphim (Rose) as well.

[Orthosdoxa]

Pppsssttt... Jason.... I don't think anyone was talking about you. You asked a legitimate question. :)

[nicodemus]

nicodemus,

Please know that I wasn't trying to slander Fr. Seraphim Rose. I simply wanted some input about the accusations I found. From what little I've read, I have a lot of respect for him.
I didn't think you were slandering him, I was just addressing a lot of the general Fr. Seraphim slander that occurs in the Orthodox world.

Of course God can use whom he chooses whether they hold right belief or not to draw others to Orthodoxy, but Fr. Seraphim was an incredibly devout man that abandoned a nihlistic life for one of hope, asceticism and struggle towards salvation. He's inspired countless others to that life as well. I personally have great reverance for him as a fellow American convert & struggler. Once again, my comments were made in general and not directed toward you.

:)

[nicodemus]

Pppsssttt... Jason.... I don't think anyone was talking about you. You asked a legitimate question. :)
Exactly. Valid question. No harm in asking at all. I was just expressing my opinion on the matter.

[Marjorie]

I just searched for the critiques of Elder Ephraim on google.com, and was shocked to see such an accurate reproduction of Fr. Ferapont's criticisms of Elder Zossima. :P

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Jason of Wyoming]

I just searched for the critiques of Elder Ephraim on google.com, and was shocked to see such an accurate reproduction of Fr. Ferapont's criticisms of Elder Zossima. :P

So I googled Elder Ephraim as well, since you peaked my interest, and ran onto a bunch of garbage about him being the leader of a monastic "cult", and about some parents in Tennessee complaining about their son becoming a monastic at 18 yrs old. Really, can those parents be Orthodox? Rick Ross's site cites Pakrov.com about someone who wonders why people go to Monasteries for spiritual retreats, when they should get all the spiritual boost they need at their local parish!

Are these people for real?

[nicodemus]

So I googled Elder Ephraim as well, since you peaked my interest, and ran onto a bunch of garbage about him being the leader of a monastic "cult", and about some parents in Tennessee complaining about their son becoming a monastic at 18 yrs old. Really, can those parents be Orthodox? Rick Ross's site cites Pakrov.com about someone who wonders why people go to Monasteries for spiritual retreats, when they should get all the spiritual boost they need at their local parish!

Are these people for real?
I could be wrong, but I'd bet Rick Ross has never set foot in a monastery unless it was something like Thomas Merton's retreat center or something "all inclusive" like that.

[prodromos]

So I googled Elder Ephraim as well, since you peaked my interest, and ran onto a bunch of garbage about him being the leader of a monastic "cult", and about some parents in Tennessee complaining about their son becoming a monastic at 18 yrs old. Really, can those parents be Orthodox?
Here is that young monk's side of the story.
http://www.athosinamerica.org/

[jsgnpdx]

Ok,

I understand and believe that the enemy would try to discredit holy men and women. But JUST AS OFTEN evil, manipulative and sinful men (and women) hide beneath the omophore of Orthodoxy and commit heneous crimes...and this DOES happen often in the United States.

I am not familiar with this monk, therefore willnot and cannot comment on him. However, I myself got involved with the "Christ the Savior Brotherhood" and at the time THERE IS NO DOUBT in my or any one elses mind that they were a cult.

The self styled abbot and "staretz" of that group Gleb Podmoshenksi (formerly known as "Father" Herman...sexually molested COUNTLESS young men...I know...I was one of them. Although he was repeatedly censured by his ecclesial authorities and defrocked and even excommunicated he continued to act as a priest and spiritual father.

Eventually it DID blow up in his face...he now lives in complete seclusion having been shamed even by those closest to him.

And he was friend and confidant of Fr. Seraphim Rose. Even the author of the biography of Seraphim Rose took the book off of the shelves and rewrote it when he came to true Orthodoxy because it itself was filled with venom. Rose HIMSELF accused many churches and monasteries of being "cults."

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, do not fien the cover of holiness JUST because it is convenient. There have been so many of these CULTS in the US. Any Melany Sakoda of Pokrov(dot)org ...sexual abuse by clergy/monastic happened to her own CHILD! It is her mission...as it will ALWAYS be mine, to uncover these CANCERS in the body of Christ.

For example...my former "Bishop" has been arrested, tried and convicted for sodomizing young boys...and after many years of suffering and denying it, to the pain of all his victims...he finally admitted it.

I apologize...but it is far MORE WRONG to cover the actions of sinful people with a pall of "holiness"...I have suffered several decades because of what one such person has done to me....and such person was formed BY Seraphim Rose.

There are half a dozen such CULTS in the USA today claiming to be Orthodox monasteries...where documented MONSTEROUS CRIMES have been commited. Our Lord said it would be better that a millstone be hung around their neck and that they be tossed into the sea, should they offend one of His little ones.

I apologize for stepping on any toes, perhaps causing discomfort...but will not and CAN NOT apologize for speaking the truth in love.

IC XC NIKA,

The worst of sinners,
Joseph

[vanshan]

Joseph, those evils are reprehensible, and should be addressed head on. All clergy are not saints, being faced with the same vulnerability to sin as all of us. Our humble prayers are offered to God on your behalf and for mercy on those who injured you.

As it has already been expressed, traditional Orthodox monasticism and asceticsim will be misunderstood in the U.S., even by many Orthodox. I have recently been reading the book Contemporary Ascetics of Mount Athos, and was myself, surprised by the way many novices ran away from their families to become monks, never looking back toward the world they left. Even some of the most highly esteemed elders absolutely refused to meet with family when they desparately tried to visit them. To become a monk is the clearly leave the world behind, and from what I've read, to learn to be obedient to you elder, which for most Americans, who greatly value free-thinking and independence, would be reprehensible. This would seem cult-like to the Protestant American mind.

Basil

[jsgnpdx]

Joseph, those evils are reprehensible, and should be addressed head on. All clergy are not saints, being faced with the same vulnerability to sin as all of us. Our humble prayers are offered to God on your behalf and for mercy on those who injured you.

...This would seem cult-like to the Protestant American mind.

Basil

Oh, I entirely agree...I don't think because someone flees from there family to join a monastery that it must therefore be a cult. In fact, the VERY REASON I ran to the monastery immediately after I was baptized was that very reason. My own family was emotionally, physically, spiritually and sexually abusive...not to mention alcoholic...and I ran to the monastery...unfortunately the abuse continued there.

If it were not for my chronically ill health I would be a monastic this very moment...for those same reasons....

Believe me, I have found no happiness in this world of sin...I have struggled with SSA all of my life not to mention other things and acknowledge that all of the "happiness" that I ever did find was not other than a momentary distraction.

As for Father Rose...I personally believe that he is a saint, although still confused about certain ideas and doctrines...not even a saint is perfect. In fact my monastery WAS his monastery and while I was going through my suffering there I would quite literally sleep on top of his elevated grave in Platina, CA...and many times had dreams of him.

Even the most perfect saint had quirks and weirdnesses. St. John Maximovich I love most dearly, yet those closest to him have told some pretty funny stories...I don't think he was sinful, but he definitely was quite "eccentric" even in the eyes of many of his contemporary Orthodox...which is why I love him all the more....(I've been accused of being just a bit eccentric myself:D )...

In Him,

Joseph

[nicodemus]

Even the most perfect saint had quirks and weirdnesses. St. John Maximovich I love most dearly, yet those closest to him have told some pretty funny stories...I don't think he was sinful, but he definitely was quite "eccentric" even in the eyes of many of his contemporary Orthodox...which is why I love him all the more....(I've been accused of being just a bit eccentric myself:D )...
Like his refusal to acknowledge Daylight Savings Time. It would confuse his parishioners badly because they couldn't figure out what time services were because the secular clocks would say one thing, but St. John's watch said another! :D

[jsgnpdx]

Like his refusal to acknowledge Daylight Savings Time. It would confuse his parishioners badly because they couldn't figure out what time services were because the secular clocks would say one thing, but St. John's watch said another! :D

HEHE ROFLPIMP!!! I was thinking particularly of that!!!!

By the way when I was at Fr. Roses monastery I heard stories that during his celebrating the divine liturgy that deer would come out of the woods and stand on their hine feer 'round the church...I heard this from those that knew him personally....so who knows! I think his heart was sincerely after God, regardless of his faults...so I love him.

St. John also...would REFUSE to discard any icons...even if it were printed on a catalog page on newspaper...he had thousands of them...sounds a little OCD to me!!! GOSH I love him!

[Jason of Wyoming]

Great link and info everyone! Thank you.