Is there anything left to discuss? [Archive]

View Full Version : Is there anything left to discuss?

ChiRho

16th May 2005, 07:17 PM

Music4Hym777

16th May 2005, 07:21 PM

Rose brought up a great point. Even if I trash my heretical synod, some JesusFirster might get angry.

Well guys, this thing has lasted longer than what I expected. Cheers! I am gonna crack open a beer, light a smoke, and watch the whole thing go up in flames (or is that flamers?)

Pax

I say we try to fight back

ByzantineDixie

16th May 2005, 07:22 PM

Not in my estimation. I've got a mini bar here in the hotel room...I'll join you with the beer but I'm in a non-smoking room so it's outside for me. I'll be back in a bit after I light up. Then I'll finish my finale post on the BVM.

For those who want to keep in touch....let's exchange email addresses. PM me.

Protoevangel

16th May 2005, 07:25 PM

Hey, it's been a good ride. I've made a lot of friends here. The kind of friends that can tell me when I'm wrong, and will help me find the narrow path again. If I'm not banned by the next time I log on, I'll send you my email Rose.

The same invitation for all - pm me. If I'm not banned, I'll get it later tonight.

Love you guys!

Music4Hym777

16th May 2005, 08:32 PM

edited...nevermind, it breaks rules

RedneckAnglican

16th May 2005, 11:02 PM

Flipper

16th May 2005, 11:46 PM

I got some Dorals left...Menthol 100's...have a couple of Coors lights in the fridge, but I'm in the mood for a martini myself...

Stick with the alcohol - give up the cigs. Remember, your body is a temple. ;) :D

RedneckAnglican

17th May 2005, 08:43 AM

Stick with the alcohol - give up the cigs. Remember, your body is a temple. ;) :D

It's the wierdest thing...I started going to the Lutheran Church about 3 or 4 months ago now...I used to go to a Episcopal Church...I was just super uncomfortable there for some reason...I would get there at about 800 am every sunday (there was a 8 o' clock service) but I didn't go to service...I would go and get a cup of coffee, sit on the back of my truck, and smoke until the 1030 service...I just could not go into that Church for some reason...there were time would I would go in and have panic attacks...I had one one time that was so bad that I thought I was having aheart attack and was taken to the hospital...this was from Church...I start going to the Lutheran Church...Sin Boldly, right...I'm thinking this is going to be o.k...all of a sudden...I smoke more than 2 or 3 and I get sick...I'm smoking about a fourth of what I used to smoke...I'm actually excersing and eating right...I got on the scales yesterday and I weigh 354.5 down from 397...all stuff THAT I'M NOT TRYING TO DO!!!...have I been "delivered"?...not exactly, but I do know something that I can't explain is going on...

SPALATIN

17th May 2005, 09:13 AM

catzinjammies

17th May 2005, 08:42 PM

ByzantineDixie

17th May 2005, 08:49 PM

I just find this place and now it's going up in smoke (menthol please). I have not been here long, but don't recall reading any posts that were unacceptable, are we not adults? Can we not have good heated arguments? Whatever happened to the art of the debate? I am tired of the weenification of everything!!! So... where can I go to engage in some mature Lutheran discussion??? :scratch:

disgruntled CIJ

catz...I knew from your first post you were someone I was going to like (even if you are WELS :P ) Let's see what happens here but if this does go up in smoke...PM me and let me know where you light.

catzinjammies

17th May 2005, 09:18 PM

Started out LCMS, that church had a feminizational moment which drove me to the local WELS church - wonderful pastor there. Moved to NC and voila! Our pastor was called to Raleigh! A mere 95 mile drive one way to here a fabulous pastor!. He was tossed for daring to pray with LCMS people (very short version) and so we found an LCMS church closer (40 miles) that is doing it right. Thats about 9 years of events crammed into a few sentences for the sake of time and sanity. BTW Our former WELS pastor will be installed as an LCMS pastor in Cary next Sunday. Life takes some strange turns indeed.

CIJ

catzinjammies

17th May 2005, 09:20 PM

What does it mean to PM someone? :doh:

CIJ

PS....nevermind, I dug around and figured it out. DUH... must be time to retire for the evening

SPALATIN

18th May 2005, 09:00 AM

catzinjammies

18th May 2005, 08:11 PM

Incase reading my nutshell history post would make you think we church jump without a thought, let me assure you that is not the case. The problem stems from not being able to know when you see a Lutheran church what you will find inside. One day it's straight as an arrow, Christ centered, sacramental, doctrinal. New pastor comes, or the the old pastor caves to pressure from libs, and whoosh! Out go the hymnals, out goes the pipe organ, in comes the midi machine and the projection screen, who needs to speak confession at EVERY service? It drives me crazy. So rather than be loyal to a synod (though generally I prefer LCMS) it becomes a quest for any Lutheran church that is doing it correctly at the moment. So this leads me to my question: If people are no longer interested in worshipping God in the Lutheran manner, why not leave and go to another church? Why try to trash the things that make Lutheranism Lutheran? Just please go away and be charismatic some place else. I love the Liturgy, I love the old minor key hymns, I NEED weekly public confession, and don't cover the cross with a projection screen!! I'm not really interested in trying to change your theology, just leave mine alone!!! If you are going to call yourself ( or your forum) Lutheran, then uphold the doctrine, or find another denomination. There's plenty of room in the seeker friendly mega churches, why not go there?

What on earth is wrong with pointing out error? Of course it's best not to call someone names, usually it's counter productive and overly emotional, but Luther called the pope anti-Christ for pete's sake! I do take a certain comfort in my strong belief that were Luther alive and posting on the internet today, he'd have been the first one banned from this board. Sadly, this is happening all over, not just here. A forum starts out Lutheran, or Orthodox, or whatever, and slowly the lines get fuzzy, others come in and cry foul and insist that the rules change to suit them. Hogwash! Take your heretical marbles and go ruin someone elses board.

Clearly I'm ranting, and am sorry for being so long winded.

CIJ

guitarplayer_101

18th May 2005, 08:32 PM

I've been living under a rock lately. I've had an insane amount of tests at school. So what exactly happened to cause all of this?:confused:

B.J.:wave:

KagomeShuko

18th May 2005, 09:22 PM

Out go the hymnals, out goes the pipe organ, in comes the midi machine and the projection screen, who needs to speak confession at EVERY service? It drives me crazy. So rather than be loyal to a synod (though generally I prefer LCMS) it becomes a quest for any Lutheran church that is doing it correctly at the moment. So this leads me to my question: If people are no longer interested in worshipping God in the Lutheran manner, why not leave and go to another church? Why try to trash the things that make Lutheranism Lutheran?

Lutheran worship. . this doesn't cause the ELCA bashing. I attend a VERY Lutheran church according to having confession and forgiveness EVERY Sunday and singing hymns to pipe organ or piano. We don't have projector screens. There is a HUGE push in the ELCA to stay liturgical among MANY MANY MANY well-known ELCA members. Even those who minister to YOUTH. . .

It's OTHER stuff, such as CALLING NAMES as you have said is counter productive most of the time.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Music4Hym777

18th May 2005, 09:48 PM

I agree, just leave the Lutheran church alone. I may be more on the liberal side of the Lutheran church, but I am still holding to the Lutheran confessions, I believe everything that the Lutheran church stands for. I could be LCMS, but ELCA is where I am because of my faily and fiance.

purpleunicorn_Andi

18th May 2005, 10:02 PM

Don't smoke never have never will!!!!

BBAS 64

19th May 2005, 06:41 AM

Good day,

I will join you all in a smoke, then may be some one will tell me what has happened as I have been very buzy as of late and do not spend much time here now a days.

One Baptist amoung a bunch of smokin Lutherans.. this could be fun :)

Peace ,

Bill

revjpw

19th May 2005, 08:08 AM

If people are no longer interested in worshipping God in the Lutheran manner, why not leave and go to another church? Why try to trash the things that make Lutheranism Lutheran?

BINGO!! You hit the nail right on the head!!:thumbsup:

ChiRho

19th May 2005, 08:35 AM

Lutheran worship. . this doesn't cause the ELCA bashing. I attend a VERY Lutheran church according to having confession and forgiveness EVERY Sunday and singing hymns to pipe organ or piano. We don't have projector screens. There is a HUGE push in the ELCA to stay liturgical among MANY MANY MANY well-known ELCA members. Even those who minister to YOUTH. . .

It's OTHER stuff, such as CALLING NAMES as you have said is counter productive most of the time.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

I agree, just leave the Lutheran church alone. I may be more on the liberal side of the Lutheran church, but I am still holding to the Lutheran confessions, I believe everything that the Lutheran church stands for. I could be LCMS, but ELCA is where I am because of my faily and fiance.

This is not accurate. Bridget, you have a female pastor, that is not Lutheran at all. Music4Him777, you are right that you could hold your beliefs and still be LCMS- that doesnt make the beliefs Lutheran. You have said before,

I'm glad there is sooo much support! I am heading off to seminary in about 3 years! I'm really excited!

That is not Lutheran. These are large matters that cannot be ignored.

Pax

helmikaarina

19th May 2005, 09:49 AM

It has been very interesting to read these discussions about what is Lutheran and what is not even if for me it's not so important what is Lutheran but what is Christian.

I've been also thinking is it possible to discuss about something whithout saying "you are wrong" or "we are right". If one just wrote what he/she thinks (is right) and let the otherone make his/her own conclusions about it, I suppose that could not be interpreted as blaming or breaking rules. I think discussing is talking and listening not only telling.

Just a thought of an innocent bystander.

revjpw

19th May 2005, 01:56 PM

It has been very interesting to read these discussions about what is Lutheran and what is not even if for me it's not so important what is Lutheran but what is Christian.

Denial and outright rejection of the Word of God is not Christian. It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who dismisses much of what God teaches us in His word.

I've been also thinking is it possible to discuss about something whithout saying "you are wrong" or "we are right". If one just wrote what he/she thinks (is right) and let the otherone make his/her own conclusions about it, I suppose that could not be interpreted as blaming or breaking rules. I think discussing is talking and listening not only telling.

Just a thought of an innocent bystander.

The last I knew, either something was true or it wasn't. Whatever is not true must, by definition, be wrong. That's what the problem is on this board, especially with the creating of this new rule. Basically they want people to come here and say anything they want, spout any heresy they desire, and no one here can correct them and turn them from their sinful state to the true Word of God. It is more important for a false unity than it is for a true Christian witness. They don't seem to care about true Christianity as revealed in the Scriptures.

helmikaarina

19th May 2005, 03:34 PM

Is there anything left to discuss? I wonder. Or anyone to discuss with.

Denial and outright rejection of the Word of God is not Christian. It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who dismisses much of what God teaches us in His word.

I admit it's difficult to discuss with someone who disagrees, but I also think there is a possibility for the best discussions. If we discuss only with those whom we think to be true Christians could anyone ever learn anything.:scratch:

The last I knew, either something was true or it wasn't. Whatever is not true must, by definition, be wrong.

Jesus said that he is the thruth. If I walk with Christ he is the way the life and the thruth for me. Can any human being say that it's not so. Could it be that personal relationship with Jesus means different things to different people. There are those questions of conciense. There is a question of calling. There is a plan God has for you, and only you can fill it. I admit, I cannot tell what is the truth and I cannot tell who is a true Christian and who isn't. But still I have to live my life trying to find out what is God's will in my life and how I can be a true Christian.:holy:

That's what the problem is on this board, especially with the creating of this new rule. Basically they want people to come here and say anything they want, spout any heresy they desire, and no one here can correct them and turn them from their sinful state to the true Word of God. It is more important for a false unity than it is for a true Christian witness. They don't seem to care about true Christianity as revealed in the Scriptures.

Who are they. :o

And what is true Christianity. Lutheran. Confessional Lutheran. Catholic. Orthodox. Calvinist....:confused:

I don't know why it's so that there are so many denominations and different kind of interpetations of the Bible. Or why is it so that some denominations as Lutherans have divided in many churches/synods. But I suppose it's human. Already Paul saw it happen (1 Cor 3). I believe that God knows why it is so and in spite of visible divisions He is capable to work in his Church - which is invisible. And He can and does reveal himself to those who seek him here in this imperfect world.

There is so little I understand. :sigh:So it's better my questions to be only rhetorical. What I know and understand is that I'm a Lutheran Christian, although there may be some or many who say it's impossible.

Music4Hym777

19th May 2005, 04:50 PM

That is not Lutheran. These are large matters that cannot be ignored.

Pax

Okay ChiRho, show me in the BoC and Lutheran confessions (not in the Bible) where women can not be pastors.

Plus you have no idea what I want to do....I need my pastoral degree inorder to be in the AAPC, so that I can do addictive counseling and maybe a little marriage counseling. The day I have to be an "altar pastor" is the day that I will be in a confirmation camp setting, particularly teaching the girls or maybe junior high boys.

Never have I wanted to be a pastor in a way that we think of pastors, but in the behind the scenes stuff. I would like to do hospital visitations as well. I DONT want to lead an entire congregation. Does that make sense?

catzinjammies

19th May 2005, 04:58 PM

Unity just for the sake of being able to say we all are sooo nice to one another, without truth is not unity at all but a farce, a lie. There are absolute truths. If you are on a Lutheran board you must expect to find a group of people who hold to the Scripture and the BOC. When you tell said people that it's ok to say, ordain women pastors, you will encounter opposition as that practice is not Biblical. To be unable to correct such an err is irrisponsible based on what orthodox Lutherans know to be the truth from Scripture. This business of "Truth may be different for me than it is for you" is a load of horse manure. It only serves to weaken ones faith, which I s'pose is satan's purpose after all. If you don't stand for something (ie: hold to something as absolute truth) you'll fall for anything. Praise God there are some Lutherans here who are willing to make a stand for the truth and not be swayed by politically correct psycho-babble.

Since I'm new here, you all don't realize that as a rule I do not rant and rave on message boards. Unfortunatly for you folks, the final straw hit this camels back here, so I've unleashed my frustrations with this subject on you. For the content I offer no apologies, for the grouchiness to new aquaintances I fear I have mis-placed my manners to a degree. Another brick in the wall.

CIJ

SPALATIN

19th May 2005, 05:08 PM

Okay ChiRho, show me in the BoC and Lutheran confessions (not in the Bible) where women can not be pastors.

Plus you have no idea what I want to do....I need my pastoral degree inorder to be in the AAPC, so that I can do addictive counseling and maybe a little marriage counseling. The day I have to be an "altar pastor" is the day that I will be in a confirmation camp setting, particularly teaching the girls or maybe junior high boys.

Never have I wanted to be a pastor in a way that we think of pastors, but in the behind the scenes stuff. I would like to do hospital visitations as well. I DONT want to lead an entire congregation. Does that make sense?

Doesn't the ELCA have the office of Deaconess?

revjpw

19th May 2005, 05:15 PM

Okay ChiRho, show me in the BoC and Lutheran confessions (not in the Bible) where women can not be pastors.

That which is in the BoC is thoroughly Biblical. That is why we fully subscribe to them, not simply because they are the BoC. But if something that is clearly taught in the Scriptures is not in the BoC, does that mean we can reject it or ignore it?? Absolutely not!!

Besides, the language of Apology XXIII speaks of the clergy (priests) as being men. And the Apology is thoroughly Biblical.

Plus you have no idea what I want to do....I need my pastoral degree inorder to be in the AAPC, so that I can do addictive counseling and maybe a little marriage counseling. The day I have to be an "altar pastor" is the day that I will be in a confirmation camp setting, particularly teaching the girls or maybe junior high boys.

Never have I wanted to be a pastor in a way that we think of pastors, but in the behind the scenes stuff. I would like to do hospital visitations as well. I DONT want to lead an entire congregation. Does that make sense?

What you've described here is exactly what we in the LCMS call "Deaconesses." In fact, their masters level training is now being done at the synodical seminaries in both St. Louis and Fort Wayne. Sounds like this could be right up your alley.:thumbsup:

Music4Hym777

19th May 2005, 05:15 PM

Doesn't the ELCA have the office of Deaconess?

It wont work to get in the AAPC. I need my M. Div, or my M. Theology, thats the way it works, its more like the only reason to actually be ordained is for those times when I would only be teaching women and children, other then camps and stuff, I could care less if I was ordained as long as I had the diploma.

SPALATIN

19th May 2005, 05:19 PM

It wont work to get in the AAPC. I need my M. Div, or my M. Theology, thats the way it works, its more like the only reason to actually be ordained is for those times when I would only be teaching women and children, other then camps and stuff, I could care less if I was ordained as long as I had the diploma.

It's interesting that they impose an ordination right for these positions. Why not just accept that you have the degree for which they are looking. What possible benefit does ordination give you for these types of careers?

Music4Hym777

19th May 2005, 11:29 PM

It's interesting that they impose an ordination right for these positions. Why not just accept that you have the degree for which they are looking. What possible benefit does ordination give you for these types of careers?

They dont impose an ordination right, but I figure that I might want to get it for "emergency" purposes. Like a retreat that we just had, one of the 35 pastors we called were available to serve, but we needed two, one for the girls, one for the guys. Thats the reason that I would want my ordination, not for my careers....does that make sense?

revjpw

20th May 2005, 12:37 AM

They dont impose an ordination right, but I figure that I might want to get it for "emergency" purposes. Like a retreat that we just had, one of the 35 pastors we called were available to serve, but we needed two, one for the girls, one for the guys. Thats the reason that I would want my ordination, not for my careers....does that make sense?

Does the ELCA ordain without a regular call? That's not at all in line with the Confessions.

Protoevangel

20th May 2005, 12:47 AM

Really Rev,

Does it really surprise you that the ELCA just might do something that isn't in line with the Confessions? :eek:

I know it's hard to believe.;)

SPALATIN

20th May 2005, 08:41 AM

Really Rev,

Does it really surprise you that the ELCA just might do something that isn't in line with the Confessions? :eek:

I know it's hard to believe.;)

Dan Dan Dan,

Are you becoming cynical about your synod? ;)

SPALATIN

20th May 2005, 08:43 AM

They dont impose an ordination right, but I figure that I might want to get it for "emergency" purposes. Like a retreat that we just had, one of the 35 pastors we called were available to serve, but we needed two, one for the girls, one for the guys. Thats the reason that I would want my ordination, not for my careers....does that make sense?

So why can't you be a DCE (Director of Christian Education) and act as a counselor for the women? Why does it have to be a "Called" servant to serve that purpose?

BigNorsk

20th May 2005, 11:02 AM

Does the ELCA ordain without a regular call? That's not at all in line with the Confessions.

Rev,

You must be refering to the line from the Augsburg Confession:
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.

That to my knowledge is the only time the term "regularly called" is used. Now I admit I'm no expert in that term. What exactly does it mean to use that term? Since this appears to be a special kind of calling, what other types of calling are there? (No reason to call this a regular call unless there is some other type of call, an irregular call if you will)

I was wondering how the LCMS uses the term. Is a person who was "regularly called" once, able to publicly teach and administer Sacraments wherever, even in places to which he has not been called? Or, is it once called always called? I am pretty sure that ordination can be withdrawn in the LCMS, for what reasons? If the synod would refuse ordination, can the congregation ordain? (That is, is ordination a separate thing from the call or is ordination a recognition of the call) Or maybe just the congregations ordain. Is anyone who is called allowed to administer Sacraments and publicly teach or must they also be ordained?

Are seminary graduates who are never called to a parish allowed to teach and administer the Sacraments? How about missionaries?

Is calling and ordination restricted to seminary graduates, or are there lay pastors or does calling and ordination require a seminary diploma?

I was just curious about some of the "inner" workings of the LCMS.

Marv

revjpw

20th May 2005, 11:53 AM

Rev,

You must be refering to the line from the Augsburg Confession:
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.

That to my knowledge is the only time the term "regularly called" is used. Now I admit I'm no expert in that term. What exactly does it mean to use that term? Since this appears to be a special kind of calling, what other types of calling are there? (No reason to call this a regular call unless there is some other type of call, an irregular call if you will)

I was wondering how the LCMS uses the term. Is a person who was "regularly called" once, able to publicly teach and administer Sacraments wherever, even in places to which he has not been called? Or, is it once called always called? I am pretty sure that ordination can be withdrawn in the LCMS, for what reasons? If the synod would refuse ordination, can the congregation ordain? (That is, is ordination a separate thing from the call or is ordination a recognition of the call) Or maybe just the congregations ordain. Is anyone who is called allowed to administer Sacraments and publicly teach or must they also be ordained?

Are seminary graduates who are never called to a parish allowed to teach and administer the Sacraments? How about missionaries?

Is calling and ordination restricted to seminary graduates, or are there lay pastors or does calling and ordination require a seminary diploma?

I was just curious about some of the "inner" workings of the LCMS.

Marv

Ordination marks an individual as one whom God has called to serve the Church. Once someone is called and ordained, his ordination is permenant, although he may be removed from his pastorate for a variety of reasons. One cannot be ordained unless he is called to be a Pastor, but one can remain "ordained" once he is no longer a Pastor.

If a seminary graduate is not called to a parish, he cannot be ordained.

The duties and authority of the office of the keys and given to those called to execute that office. One who is called and ordained has the authority given to that office by Christ to administer the Means of Grace, Word and Sacrament. The laity are not to administer the Means of Grace because they do not have the authority given by Christ to do so.

To be called and ordained in the LCMS, a man must be certified by the Synod, normally done through the seminaries. He could be a graduate of the seminary, through either the M.Div. program or an alternate route program (which require strict qualifications). He can also come from another denomination and go through a colloquy program. In this case, his ordination is recognized as one who has been called by God to occupy the Office, but the colloquy program allows him to be certified by the Synod in order to become a Synod member and receive a call to a Synod congregation.

Check this document for more information regarding the Divine Call:
http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/divinecall.pdf

VeryTiredGirl

20th May 2005, 06:59 PM

So why can't you be a DCE (Director of Christian Education) and act as a counselor for the women? Why does it have to be a "Called" servant to serve that purpose?

Don't know what it's like in the US, but up here, DCEs, DPSs (Director of Parish Services) and Lutheran School Teachers are all called positions. They just aren't ordained.