A wop bop baloo bop, a wop bam boom! [Archive]

Khaleas

16th May 2005, 10:07 AM

Considering I haven't had much chocolate today... it must have been that which made me feel nauseous...

I sure prefer God Grant them Many Years over applause...

Last night when I drove back from the airport I passed by the local Baptist church. I happened to notice on their board about their two Sunday worship... The earlier one was: Old Style Worship and the later one was Contemporary Worship... All I could think of is 1) part of the members are getting tired of power point etc 2) am I glad or what that I don't have to pick which 'type' of worship I participate in.
While being orthodox is an ongoing struggle, it has still given me an inner peace I did not know was possible. I carried my prayer rope with me on my trip to Finland this weekend and it made for a great conversation starter. I ended up giving my book about orthodoxy that I had with me to read to my seat mate (it was quite cheap, I'll just consider it an offering, and buy myself a new one). He was a non practising Episcopalian and got very interested. The book I gave him was: Practical Guide of Orthodoxy and Orthopraxia by Priest Michael. I told him some of the practical things are not practiced in many parishes (like men and women on separate sides) but that I'd help him track down a church when he emails me.

Time for some Ancient Faith Radio and cleaning...

Khaleas

16th May 2005, 10:08 AM

I will be writing a letter to the Bishop and the Vatican, that is ridiculous.

All that comes to mind is the song: Rocking around the Christmas Tree.....
Sad I know...

ProCommunioneFacior

16th May 2005, 10:09 AM

They also changed perfectly splendid architecture into an eyesore.

Irish Melkite

16th May 2005, 10:14 AM

Blasphemy, and I use that word intentionally.

Notice the altar girl as well?

The altar girl is the least of that church's problems :(

Alexis OCA

16th May 2005, 10:15 AM

I will be writing a letter to the Bishop and the Vatican, that is ridiculous.

I have a friend who was on the forefront of the Roman Catholic battle to stop liturgical abuses. Certain people had the insight to know what would follow the council. The letter writing and warnings started in 1961! Save your ink.

Alexis OCA

16th May 2005, 10:18 AM

I actually cannot tell if that service is catholic or episcopalian. Lovely 'table' they use.

ProCommunioneFacior

16th May 2005, 10:23 AM

I have a friend who was on the forefront of the Roman Catholic battle to stop liturgical abuses. Certain people had the insight to know what would follow the council. The letter writing and warnings started in 1961! Save your ink.

Nope, I will write them, I will not stop defending the sanctity of my faith, if it takes me all my life I will never stop.

Alexis OCA

16th May 2005, 10:29 AM

Nope, I will write them, I will not stop defending the sanctity of my faith, if it takes me all my life I will never stop.

I don't doubt your sincerity. In fact I admire your conviction. But the letters have been written and they have been ignored (especially in the United States). Make a statement with your feet and your wallet if you want to see liturgical reform.

God Bless

Rilian

16th May 2005, 10:30 AM

I actually cannot tell if that service is catholic or episcopalian. Lovely 'table' they use.

What is the purpose of the table like that in a RC church?

At my grandparents Presbyterian church they had a holy table much like that one and not an altar. That is where they would do the prayers of communion and so on and prepare the gifts.

Alexis OCA

16th May 2005, 11:16 AM

What is the purpose of the table like that in a RC church?

If it indeed was a clip from an RC liturgy the table would serve as the altar. It did seem to have a central place. I did not notice any altar linen on it though.

Khaleas

16th May 2005, 11:32 AM

http://www.churchbuilding.com/interactive/swf/html/st_nicholas.html

There is another clip for an Easter Vigil Baptism.

http://www.nickchurch.org/

(like the shortening of St Nicholas??? :sick: ) Check out the pictures... same place.
Direct link from http://www.catholicusa.com/diocese_&_parishes_online/parishes_online/u.s._parishes/illinois_parishes.htm

Matrona

16th May 2005, 12:29 PM

What the heckily-diddly am I supposed to be looking at? All I can see is a windows media logo.

Khaleas

16th May 2005, 12:34 PM

What the hell am I supposed to be looking at? All I can see is a windows media logo.

I don't know how hell entered into the discussion... but anyways...:sigh:

I had to press the play button for it to work... or you might not have the latest upgrade or firewalled or something... I'm pretty well firewalled but got it to work... I used Quicktime to view it.

Matrona

16th May 2005, 12:37 PM

Matrona

16th May 2005, 12:41 PM

I don't doubt your sincerity. In fact I admire your conviction. But the letters have been written and they have been ignored (especially in the United States). Make a statement with your feet and your wallet if you want to see liturgical reform.

He should go to the Vatican, get an audience with Pope Benedict, and tell the Pope to start making surprise inspections of American RC parishes.

I'd buy tickets to that. :D

prodromos

16th May 2005, 01:05 PM

What the hell am I supposed to be looking at? All I can see is a windows media logo.Oops, sorry Matrona, I should have mentioned you need the "quicktime" plugin from www.apple.com.

John.

Jason of Wyoming

16th May 2005, 01:29 PM

The baptism clip confuses me. If you're baptising by Infusion, shouldn't you still pour three seperate times, instead of one continuous flow?

Rilian

16th May 2005, 01:37 PM

The altar girl is the least of that church's problems :(

Yeah, I actually only noticed the second time I watched it.

ProCommunioneFacior

16th May 2005, 03:03 PM

I don't doubt your sincerity. In fact I admire your conviction. But the letters have been written and they have been ignored (especially in the United States). Make a statement with your feet and your wallet if you want to see liturgical reform.

God Bless

I did stop attending a parish with liturgical abuses and went to a solid parish. However, how I plan to contribute to the orthodoxy of the church is by being faithful myself, teaching my kids reverence, and teaching my students (Catholic University or seminary) orthodox teachings.

I will not abandon what I believe to be truth, because of Judas.

By the way I did write a few letters to my Bishops and the Vatican regarding the liturgical abuses at my former parish and once we got a new Bishop the liturgical abuses stopped at that parish and most of the parishes that adopted their teen program (my former parish is the founding parish of Lifeteen).

Things may take a long time, but things can and do change.

Additionally, I am very hopeful because of the young priests, everyone that I know would have nothing to do with this irreverent hogwash.

Photios

16th May 2005, 05:02 PM

He should go to the Vatican, get an audience with Pope Benedict, and tell the Pope to start making surprise inspections of American RC parishes.

I'd buy tickets to that. :D

Me too. Where do I camp to get them. I actually have a rather high respect for Pope Benedict and would love to see him confront something like this.

RobNJ

16th May 2005, 06:22 PM

The ONLY good thing I saw, they had two thurifers!!
The rest...................:sick::doh:

InnerPhyre

16th May 2005, 06:26 PM

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Moros

16th May 2005, 06:27 PM

:sick:

Matrona

16th May 2005, 10:27 PM

Honestly, all of you must be blind! Can't you see that priest is plainly suffering from a terrible disorder of the inner ear?! It was probably made worse by the rhythmic clapping and the noise made him and the altar servers disoriented on their way to the pulpit...

;) :D

InnerPhyre

16th May 2005, 10:29 PM

When I first started watching this, I started laughing....then the clip continued and I felt like I was going to vomit....by the end I wanted to cry.

Rilian

16th May 2005, 10:43 PM

When I first started watching this, I started laughing....then the clip continued and I felt like I was going to vomit....by the end I wanted to cry.

I just found it depressing. I honestly don't like seeing these types of things and wish it wouldn't happen.

Matrona

16th May 2005, 10:45 PM

When I first started watching this, I started laughing....then the clip continued and I felt like I was going to vomit....by the end I wanted to cry.

Why doesn't the altar have anything on it? Why is the altar in the middle of the room instead of at one end? Where is the prothesis table? Where is the chalice and diskos? Where are the relics? I know you guys believe in eucharistic adoration, so how about the tabernacle?

I've only been to one RC mass that I can remember very well, and the gifts were in the back until the mass was almost over. Is that normal? :scratch:

InnerPhyre

16th May 2005, 10:53 PM

Why doesn't the altar have anything on it?

Liturgical abuse
Why is the altar in the middle of the room instead of at one end?
Liberal touchy feely modern archetechture. The Pope has just spoken out against this last week

Where is the prothesis table? Where is the chalice and diskos? Where are the relics? I know you guys believe in eucharistic adoration, so how about the tabernacle?

More liberal "We-can't-look-too-Catholic so lets Protestantize things up a bit" nonsenes. The Pope just spoke out against these things as well. He has said that it's time to clamp down on this kind of archetechture and place the tabernacle where it belongs, in a promenant position so that we can all adore Christ in the Eucharist without having to search for Him.

I've only been to one RC mass that I can remember very well, and the gifts were in the back until the mass was almost over. Is that normal? :scratch:

The unconsecrated elements remain in the back of the church until the liturgy of the word is over (about the half way point). After that, the gifts are brought forward to the altar to be consecrated. The pre-sanctified hosts (if any are left over from the previous mass) remain in the tabernacle (until just before the Eucharist is received), which SHOULD be promenant and behind or beside the altar

Oblio

16th May 2005, 10:54 PM

Ahhhh...

So this is the Liturgical abuse that I hear Traditional Catholics lament over. My prayers are with you guys. Hopefully Pope Benedict can put and end to this.

Oblio

16th May 2005, 10:59 PM

And what was up with the young Jedi with the candlestick on the left near the end of the 'procession' ??

Matrona

16th May 2005, 11:22 PM

More liberal "We-can't-look-too-Catholic so lets Protestantize things up a bit" nonsenes. The Pope just spoke out against these things as well. He has said that it's time to clamp down on this kind of archetechture and place the tabernacle where it belongs, in a promenant position so that we can all adore Christ in the Eucharist without having to search for Him.

See, you folks should have adopted the iconostasis too. That way you would have all the "Catholic looking" things safely hidden behind a wall. ;)

I have to say I have a hard time when looking at pictures of non-Orthodox churches because I can't figure out what's the back and what's the front. And this one doesn't even have a front, it has a middle with a big table.

(I'm sorry if I seem really irreverent about this, but since I was basically unchurched before Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy is my baseline. So when other churches aren't the same way it always blows me away. There's an old thread from PRE where it had Lotar talking about how his then-church had 12,000 parishioners and 15 different pastors. I didn't mention this at the time, but my first thought after reading this was, "But who brings communion to the parishioners who are sick?!" A completely ridiculous thought, right, considering it's a non-denominational church and I think their communion is those little vacuum sealed packs of grape juice and a cracker. But that is really what my first thought was.)

Llauralin

16th May 2005, 11:47 PM

I've never been to a Catholic mass, but even by most protestant standards that's just weird....and a little creepy...

If they want to change everything, they should probably stop calling themselves Catholic...

:scratch: :eek:

Marjorie

17th May 2005, 12:24 AM

If they want to change everything, they should probably stop calling themselves Catholic...

If only those types could see this fact with your outsider's clarity.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Maximus

17th May 2005, 12:32 AM

That clip is similar to the sorts of things I experienced when I began attending the Latin Church. I fell in love (through books) with the historic Roman Church - the Church of Saints Peter and Paul, Leo and Martin - only to find a tremendous disconnect between it and the modern RCC. Then it dawned on me: I was in love with Orthodox Rome!

I apologize for finding that clip funny and laughing, but I did enjoy laughing.

That old fart is pretty nimble! ^_^

Khaleas

17th May 2005, 12:42 AM

That old fart is pretty nimble! ^_^

Hahaha, I still think he's been 'sampling' the communion wine before services...

And I still love the name of this thread.... :D

Jason of Wyoming

17th May 2005, 12:52 AM

That clip is similar to the sorts of things I experienced when I began attending the Latin Church. I fell in love (through books) with the historic Roman Church - the Church of Saints Peter and Paul, Leo and Martin - only to find a tremendous disconnect between it and the modern RCC. Then it dawned on me: I was in love with Orthodox Rome!

Maximus,

Exactly what happened to me. Studied history, loved Rome. Attended Mass, wondered what was going on. Went to Divine Liturgy, found what I thought I was going to find at Mass.

Here we are.

Matrona

17th May 2005, 01:40 AM

That clip is similar to the sorts of things I experienced when I began attending the Latin Church. I fell in love (through books) with the historic Roman Church - the Church of Saints Peter and Paul, Leo and Martin - only to find a tremendous disconnect between it and the modern RCC.

The Church of those noble saints survives in the East. It died out in the West. Don't worry, though... it will live again in the West.

That old fart is pretty nimble! ^_^

He wasn't just dancing, it was a Processional Polka! A Liturgical Luau! A Gospel-Reading Rumba! Transubstantiation Tango! The Consubstantial-trinity Conga Line! :D

Khaleas

17th May 2005, 02:00 AM

He wasn't just dancing, it was a Processional Polka! A Liturgical Luau! A Gospel-Reading Rumba! Transubstantiation Tango! The Consubstantial-trinity Conga Line! :D

It's too late for this LOL... ^_^ ^_^ ^_^ :D :D :D I'm about to pass out laughing...

Ok, someone come and whip me into reading... I'm so going to fail my exam tomorrow... not to mention not finishing my paper... I'm not sleeping for the next three days... this is going to be fun. :sigh:

Moros

17th May 2005, 02:38 AM

Never cared much for Rome, personally. I've always been an ancient Egypt man. Funny I didn't become a Copt. :D

prodromos

17th May 2005, 04:07 AM

And I still love the name of this thread.... :D
It was the first thing that came into my mind when I saw the piano player getting into the groove :D.
I wasn't intending to be mocking (and I'm sure it can be seen as such), because I don't doubt they are all sincere and believe that this is how they should worship. I just hope they are able to rediscover what they have lost. I notice on the church's website they claim they are called to "cherish the traditions of our faith". Lets pray they take that to heart.

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!
John.

P.S. The church website is also a poke in the eye to all those Catholics who are offended by the term "Roman Catholic" ;) :P

Rilian

17th May 2005, 08:38 AM

Hopefully Pope Benedict can put and end to this.

Lex orandi, lex credendi. What you're seeing here is the tip of the iceberg.

They are not moving closer to us, they are moving further away.

Khaleas

17th May 2005, 09:05 AM

Lex orandi, lex credendi. What you're seeing here is the tip of the iceberg.

They are not moving closer to us, they are moving further away.

And we all know what happens when the whole deal finally hits the iceberg... :sigh:

I could still tolerate Lutherans 10 years ago, but now it's ridiculous... All the old hymns are gone and replaced with newer ones or rewritten. The local Baptist church sign says: 9 am old style worship, 11 am contemporary worship... Pick one and stick with it... the orthodox did... ;)

_Petros_

17th May 2005, 12:39 PM

You know, whenever someone asks for wisdom on this website, we all respond and than end our statements with "but I know nothing" "have mercy on me the sinner" "humbly and such"...yet here I see only hostility and proud hearts. Yes, I love the services of old, but Jesus spoke much of love and forgiveness and little of Churches and acuteness to liturgy. These people, because they denied thier "comforts zones " and danced in front of the alter could have made great impressions on people whom afterwards had that much more courage to witness Christ in public. I remember one parable where Jesus spoke of two sons who were asked to tend the fields and the one son said he would, while one said he would not, and yet the latter son felt sorry and did it while the first did not...so who of us are doing our Father's will and who is saying they shall?

contriteheart

17th May 2005, 01:28 PM

I am very saddened by this entire thread. The tone of gleeful mockery is repulsive.

I am reminded of two scriptures we might all do well to keep in mind:

1) "And David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, and David was wearing a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouting and the sound of the trumpet. Then it happened as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart...But when David returned to bless his household, Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, "How the king of Israel distinguished himself today! He uncovered himself today in the eyes of his servants' maids as one of the foolish ones shamelessly uncovers himself!" So David said to Michal, "It was before the Lord, who chose me above your father and above all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel; therefore I will celebrate before the Lord. And I will be more lightly esteemed than this and will be humble in my own eyes, but with the maids of whom you have spoken, with them I will be distinguished." And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death." 2 Samuel 6 14-23

2) 1 Samuel 16:7 (NASB95)
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

Do you really want to be found mocking someone whose heart may very well be full of worship to the Lord?

I am very, very saddened by this thread... :(

Rilian

17th May 2005, 01:33 PM

Petros

yet here I see only hostility and proud hearts.

On that count you are right. Would we like it if a video of an Orthodox liturgy was posted in another forum and derided? We would be very unhappy. This thread is also showing a great deal of undue glee and and prideful discourse.

Yes, I love the services of old, but Jesus spoke much of love and forgiveness and little of Churches and acuteness to liturgy.

I disagree. Christ spoke quite directly of the solemnity and importance of the Eucharist. He modeled the liturgy for us in his actions and his passion. The Holy Fathers took his message and Christ quite seriously. Do we think we have a better understanding of the church and Christ’s intentions than them? What do you think the great saints of the church would make of the video?

These people, because they denied thier "comforts zones " and danced in front of the alter could have made great impressions on people whom afterwards had that much more courage to witness Christ in public.

I disagree again. If I took the Evangelion and danced around the Solea as my way of showing my love for Jesus, would that be appropriate? What kind of impression would it make?

All in all I think this thread should come to a close. The video is shameful, but so is our reaction.

Rilian

17th May 2005, 01:38 PM

I am very, very saddened by this thread... :(

Sometimes instead of focusing on what's good about Orthodoxy we look for what is wrong elsewhere.

Forgive us.

Marjorie

17th May 2005, 01:43 PM

Sometimes instead of focusing on what's good about Orthodoxy we look for what is wrong elsewhere.

Forgive us.

Amen.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Alexis OCA

17th May 2005, 02:14 PM

Maybe I'm just a bit sensitive about fraternal correction or Is that a speck in your eye?

Let's get real here for one second. There's enough moderating on these boards without all the analysis about anyones motives, tone, or humor. OK call it fraternal correction if you want to, but it all smells too much like self-righteousness. Many talk as though all Orthodox, without exception, are dispassionate saints, and quite beyond making "uncharitable" judgments and sterotyping. The reality is that most of us (Orthodox) have not achieved even the second stage of theosis and are thus daily engaged in the struggle against uncharitable thoughts, words, and actions. Let people speak and if a thread is bothersome to you, don't participate. But leave the moderating to the moderators.

If you feel I am off base here I would ask my orthdox brothers and sisters to let me know. Apologies if I have inadvertly offended any of my Orthodox brethren.

As always,
With affection,

contriteheart

17th May 2005, 02:27 PM

You're right. I am a guest in your house, and my comments were not asked for. Please forgive me.

GraceMercyPeace

_Petros_

17th May 2005, 03:38 PM

Rilian

17th May 2005, 04:10 PM

I just want to apologize if I offended anyone.

Alexis OCA

17th May 2005, 04:17 PM

I need to paraphrase something I saw on another board that I thought I should add here:

Please let me add that I am not advocating or excusing the insensitive mockery of other groups which does nothing to promote the gospel nor spread Orthodoxy - all while hurting the feelings of others. (Yeah, I know, look who's talking about hurting the feelings of others.) I just think we need to give each other a little leeway when it comes to how we express ourselves. Let's not always assume the worst. And I know that most who have a charity and sensitivity toward others (that I certainly lack) have only our best interests at heart.

With affection.

Robbie_James_Francis

17th May 2005, 04:25 PM

Interesting. Whilst I am extremely uncomfortable with what I saw, I'm not sure that it necessarily was a liturgical abuse. Sorry to play devil's advocate here, but at least they were lively. ;)

Pax vobiscum,
Rob

Alexis OCA

17th May 2005, 05:22 PM

InnerPhyre

17th May 2005, 05:29 PM

Run that by your friends at OBOB...;)

Is outrage

Alexis OCA

17th May 2005, 05:40 PM

Is outrage

Can always count on you IP!^_^

Robbie_James_Francis

17th May 2005, 05:43 PM

Run that by your friends at OBOB...;)

I'll see if I can muster up the courage and prepare myself for the onslaught of outrage directed towards me. Let's just hope it doesn't get violent...;)

Pax Dei!:liturgy:
Rob:hug:

Oblio

17th May 2005, 05:43 PM

RJF is probabaly just suffering from electric shock from playing with leaky batteries in GH :)

Rilian

17th May 2005, 06:02 PM

I'll see if I can muster up the courage and prepare myself for the onslaught of outrage directed towards me. Let's just hope it doesn't get violent...;)

I foresee a scrum ensuing. Wear something to protect your ears!

Robbie_James_Francis

17th May 2005, 06:08 PM

RJF is probabaly just suffering from electric shock from playing with leaky batteries in GH :)

GH?

I might not post on this just yet in OBOB...I'm tired and arguing with Protestants in GT, so I need all the help I can get rather than offending the liturgist and trying to fight on two fronts. :P Oh, the pressures of being a moderately traditional Catholic. ^_^

God bless you! Christos Anesti!

Rob

Matrona

17th May 2005, 06:19 PM

P.S. The church website is also a poke in the eye to all those Catholics who are offended by the term "Roman Catholic" ;) :P

You know, every time I hear/see the phrase "Roman Catholic" on the TV or on an RC website, I think of the time OBOB got all up in arms about my use of the term "Roman Catholic" to refer to their religion, calling me anti-Catholic and all of that. So every time I hear "Roman Catholic" used by someone who is obviously not anti-Catholic, I think, "TAKE THAT, OBOB!" :D

Passi-diddly Aggressi-diddly ding dong.

I reserve the right to comment on non-Orthodox liturgical abuse as I see fit because they invoke the name of my God. My God, my business. Anyone who has a problem with it is hereby instructed to develop a sense of humor and get over it.

Robbie_James_Francis

17th May 2005, 06:27 PM

You know, every time I hear/see the phrase "Roman Catholic" on the TV or on an RC website, I think of the time OBOB got all up in arms about my use of the term "Roman Catholic" to refer to their religion, calling me anti-Catholic and all of that. So every time I hear "Roman Catholic" used by someone who is obviously not anti-Catholic, I think, "TAKE THAT, OBOB!" :D

Passi-diddly Aggressi-diddly ding dong.

I wasn't here then, so...

But I can't see they could call you anti-Catholic just for that. I for one am not even really "offended" as such by it.

Besides, the Catholic church is of the Roman Rite, so it's fine.

I reserve the right to comment on non-Orthodox liturgical abuse as I see fit because they invoke the name of my God. My God, my business. Anyone who has a problem with it is hereby instructed to develop a sense of humor and get over it.

Fair enough. I wasn't questioning your right to do this if you wish and wouldn't.

InnerPhyre

17th May 2005, 08:00 PM

I don't mind being called Roman Catholic, because I am a Roman Catholic. The thing I don't like is when people call the whole Catholic Church the "Roman Catholic Church" which is akin to calling the whole Orthodox Church the "Greek Orthodox Church," which of course, would exclude the Russians, Antiochans, etc.

Rilian

17th May 2005, 08:04 PM

which is akin to calling the whole Orthodox Church the "Greek Orthodox Church," which of course, would exclude the Russians, Antiochans, etc.

Technically speaking it is correct though, since the heritage of the church is Greek. The official name of the Antiochian church is actually the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.

Matrona

17th May 2005, 08:20 PM

which is akin to calling the whole Orthodox Church the "Greek Orthodox Church," which of course, would exclude the Russians, Antiochans, etc.

No, it isn't. I'm Greek Orthodox, even though that's not my ethnicity. The only way I could ever be 'Greek' is if I joined a sorority. :P ;) :D

Marjorie

17th May 2005, 10:43 PM

GH?

General Theology, known in these here parts as "General Heresies." :)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Robbie_James_Francis

18th May 2005, 05:29 AM

General Theology, known in these here parts as "General Heresies." :)

:clap: ^_^

Alexis OCA

18th May 2005, 08:14 AM

No, it isn't. I'm Greek Orthodox, even though that's not my ethnicity. The only way I could ever be 'Greek' is if I joined a sorority. :P ;) :D

And that image of you in a sorority is almost too much for me to bear:thumbsup: ....I need to go pray.:crosseo: :prayer:

With affection.

prodromos

18th May 2005, 09:27 AM

Technically speaking it is correct though, since the heritage of the church is Greek. The official name of the Antiochian church is actually the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch.
Technically speaking the Roman Empire continued with its capital at Constantinople long after the fall of Rome, so Greeks of the Empire are actually Romans, and of course our church is catholic in every sense of the word...

Catholics should be thankful we don't take them to court over the use of the term "Roman Catholic" ;) :P

John

The Prokeimenon!

18th May 2005, 09:28 AM

I'm not sure, but in the Middle East isn't the Orthodox Church called "Roman Orthodox" and the Catholic Church called the "Latin Church"? It's been a long time since I heard that so I'm not sure if I got it right.

I don't mind "Eastern" Orthodox. I'd like to be called "Christian" but that's too broad. I'd like to be called "Catholic" but my family thinks of Jack Chick comic books when I use that term. I'd like to be called "Roman" but I don't feel like explaining the history of the Empire (and how there really never was a such thing as the "Byzantine Empire") and I'd like to be called "Orthodox" but I don't feel like explaining that I'm not Jewish. So "Eastern Orthodox" is fine :)

Which reminds me of when my Priest, who is quite Semetic looking (he's Lebanese) was at the the Post Office. A lady comes up to him and asks about his clothes. He explains that he's an Orthodox Priest. The lady asks if she can get his name and the Church's address because she has a friend who would really like to start going to Synagogue again. Keep in mind, my Priest is wearing a cross, and the Church is called "Christ the Savior Orthodox Christian Church." Also, my Priest had given her a business card, which has an Icon of Christ on it. He politely explained that her friend is always welcome to come, but she should know that we worship Jesus Christ and are not Jewish :D

Moses

The Prokeimenon!

18th May 2005, 09:36 AM

Technically speaking the Roman Empire continued with its capital at Constantinople long after the fall of Rome, so Greeks of the Empire are actually Romans, and of course our church is catholic in every sense of the word...

I've also heard it said that the Roman Empire officially fell in 1917 with the Martyrdom of the Tsar since through some marriages and political arrangement the seat of power had been transferred from Constantinople to Moscow. Of course, that may just be a theory and springboard for deep politcal science discussions, but it's interesting nonetheless.

By the way- for my Russophile brothers- is it "Czar" or "Tsar"? From my very limited knowledge of the Cyrillic Alphabet, it would seem that "Tsar" is more correct, but since it's a form of "Caesar" I can seen "Czar" making sense too... does it matter?

Moses

OrthodoxyUSA

18th May 2005, 09:40 AM

Oh.. my God! :doh:

Doing the loop de loop!

prodromos

18th May 2005, 09:47 AM

The official name of the Patriarchate in Constantinople (Istanbul) is "Roman Patriarchate".
"Roman" is "Rum" in Turkish.

John

The Prokeimenon!

18th May 2005, 10:18 AM

wait a minute- I think I may have posted in the wrong thread- or maybe not, I've confused myself...

I see now that this is not the thread talking about whether or not we're offended by the term "Eastern Orthodox." Oops.

Moses

OrthodoxyUSA

18th May 2005, 10:20 AM

wait a minute- I think I may have posted in the wrong thread- or maybe not, I've confused myself...

Moses

Yep... I do it all the time.....

Christ is Risen!

Forgive me....:liturgy:

Rilian

18th May 2005, 11:39 AM

It appers we are being repayed more than in kind. I would advise anyone thinking about jumping in to debates where we cannot answer slander in other areas to think twice about it.

contriteheart

18th May 2005, 11:57 AM

It appers we are being repayed more than in kind. I would advise anyone thinking about jumping in to debates where we cannot answer slander in other areas to think twice about it.

Rilian,

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Can you be more specific?

Thanks,
GraceMercyPeace

Matrona

18th May 2005, 12:00 PM

It appers we are being repayed more than in kind. I would advise anyone thinking about jumping in to debates where we cannot answer slander in other areas to think twice about it.

It would be prudent to start a thread calmly answering their claims here, instead of challenging them directly.

Anyway, the ones who don't repent, will grieve soon enough over their blasphemies against the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Alexis OCA

18th May 2005, 12:34 PM

It would be prudent to start a thread calmly answering their claims here, instead of challenging them directly.

I agree that would be very prudent. It may not change a thing though. People believe what they want to believe.

Matrona

18th May 2005, 12:39 PM

I agree that would be very prudent. It may not change a thing though. People believe what they want to believe.

Yeah, I love that they just "know" what we believe better than we do, re: the filioque, purgatory.

Gee, all this time I just wanted to be in schism! :doh:

OrthodoxTexan

18th May 2005, 12:40 PM

Ok...I'm about the puke. The filioque thread was one thing. The why not Orthodox thread is a completely other. :sick:

Matrona

18th May 2005, 12:43 PM

Ok...I'm about the puke. The filioque thread was one thing. The why not Orthodox thread is a completely other. :sick:
Yeah, I like how the debating accusation flies only after DF can't answer you... and you weren't debating, but citing historical fact :D

Robbie_James_Francis

18th May 2005, 01:27 PM

I apologise for anything in OBOB that has offended you...my discussion of prayer to the Saints has taught me how frustrating it is being told what you believe. And I will always consider your opinions in the EO Church and hold them in great esteem. :)

Peace and grace in Christ,
Rob :hug: :liturgy:

vanshan

18th May 2005, 01:32 PM

I guess we shouldn't counter with a "Why I'm not Roman Catholic" thread, although many of us did consider that church before becoming Orthodox.

Does anyone have a response to the link with all the quotes from many Church fathers who allegedly supported the Supremecy of the Pope? My interpretation of most of those quotes is that they may be merely statements referring to the honorary postion of the Patriarch of Rome as first among equals, not suggesting an actual supremecy of power. I think most of them fit within this understanding.

Basil

chava

18th May 2005, 01:35 PM

hmmm? :holy:

Robbie_James_Francis

18th May 2005, 01:38 PM

vanshan

18th May 2005, 01:43 PM

Again, I apologise. Please realise that I didn't start the thread in order to insult Eastern Orthodoxy or my beloved Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. I was merely trying to explain an experience on my faith journey to my brothers and sisters in OBOB and ask them for any support and advice they could offer.

I doubt any real offense has been taken, we are pretty secure in our . . . um. . . ecclesiology, but thanks. I have found those of us here at TAW are quite charitable, when possible. Sometimes hard truths have to be defended, but I'm happy to be part of this kind community.

Basil

Matrona

18th May 2005, 01:44 PM

I'm sorry if this has led to insulting or misrepresenting comments.

Please ask us about our own beliefs. A lot of things that King of the Nations and DF are claiming are absolutely false.

nicodemus

18th May 2005, 01:52 PM

Which reminds me of when my Priest, who is quite Semetic looking (he's Lebanese) was at the the Post Office. A lady comes up to him and asks about his clothes. He explains that he's an Orthodox Priest. The lady asks if she can get his name and the Church's address because she has a friend who would really like to start going to Synagogue again. Keep in mind, my Priest is wearing a cross, and the Church is called "Christ the Savior Orthodox Christian Church." Also, my Priest had given her a business card, which has an Icon of Christ on it. He politely explained that her friend is always welcome to come, but she should know that we worship Jesus Christ and are not Jewish :D

My spiritual father said he stopped at the grocery store on Halloween a few years ago to pick something up his wife needed to make for dinner. He said everybody kept telling him "great costume!"

He said after September 11 people would assume he was Muslim eventhough he had on a big pectoral cross and his little skullcap thing (can't remember what they're called) had a embroidered cross on the front of it!

vanshan

18th May 2005, 02:36 PM

He said after September 11 people would assume he was Muslim eventhough he had on a big pectoral cross and his little skullcap thing (can't remember what they're called) had a embroidered cross on the front of it!

Maybe this is why my jurisdictions requires its priests to wear Roman collars, so at least they look Christian, rather than Muslim. It's too bad though.

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 02:39 PM

Again, I apologise. Please realise that I didn't start the thread in order to insult Eastern Orthodoxy or my beloved Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. I was merely trying to explain an experience on my faith journey to my brothers and sisters in OBOB and ask them for any support and advice they could offer.

I'm sorry if this has led to insulting or misrepresenting comments.

In Christ,
Rob :hug:

I don't think that what you did was wrong in any way; it's only fair to allow the Catholics to answer our claims if you were to ask us why we reject Catholicism, etc. The problem is that (with reason) we can't debate in their forum and they can't in ours, so it becomes a rather indirect debate between forums...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 03:27 PM

You're right. I am a guest in your house, and my comments were not asked for. Please forgive me.

GraceMercyPeace

Grace,

I'd much rather you criticize us brutally if it would mean you'd consider yourself one of us and not just a guest. :)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

nicodemus

18th May 2005, 04:20 PM

Maybe this is why my jurisdictions requires its priests to wear Roman collars, so at least they look Christian, rather than Muslim. It's too bad though.
Well, the Muslims took almost all of their garb from Orthodoxy, it's just people in the west that are ignorant to that fact.

contriteheart

18th May 2005, 05:54 PM

Grace,

I'd much rather you criticize us brutally if it would mean you'd consider yourself one of us and not just a guest. :)

Thank you, that's very kind of you, Marjorie. You have made me feel very welcome here. :)

I cherish this forum, and consider you my brethren, but I know that because I am not Orthodox, there are many who see me simply as an outsider. I understand this, and am content to remain as a guest in your home. I will try to remember to behave like one in the future.

BTW, I will be away for awhile, so I probably won't be able to respond to any pms or messages in a timely fashion.

In Christ's love,
GraceMercyPeace

Maximus

18th May 2005, 06:06 PM

Again, I apologise. Please realise that I didn't start the thread in order to insult Eastern Orthodoxy or my beloved Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters. I was merely trying to explain an experience on my faith journey to my brothers and sisters in OBOB and ask them for any support and advice they could offer.

I'm sorry if this has led to insulting or misrepresenting comments.

In Christ,
Rob :hug:

One way I avoid being offended by threads in other forums is by never visiting those forums.

I don't look at OBOB. I don't look at the Baptist Forum, or the Messianic Jewish Forum, or the Left Handed Goat Ropers Forum.

Oh, okay. I will look if somebody makes a reference to something interesting in another forum; but as a general rule I stay comfortably here in TAW (when I have time for the net, which is not a lot lately).

Matrona

18th May 2005, 06:13 PM

I don't look at OBOB.

Good call. We mock an individual parish's liturgical abuse (and I'm sure our reaction would have been identical REGARDLESS of that church's denomination, and much worse had it been Orthodox), so they turn around and mock our beliefs openly.

I go over there to report the bad posts in the worst threads, even though most of my reports are dutifully ignored.

Matrona

18th May 2005, 06:17 PM

Maybe this is why my jurisdictions requires its priests to wear Roman collars, so at least they look Christian, rather than Muslim. It's too bad though.

His Grace Bishop ANTOUN, who is of Lebanese descent, wears a roman collar with his Panagia. In general, I dislike the roman collar with the passion of a thousand fiery suns :) , but I don't blame His Grace at all for wearing it.

Maximus

18th May 2005, 06:20 PM

I don't feel like I mocked anything.

What the clip in the OP displayed is not a real Gospel procession.

It was an abuse that should be exposed.

What makes it funny is the shocking incongruence of it, like the monks beating themselves in the head with boards or the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" bit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Matrona

18th May 2005, 06:27 PM

I don't feel like I mocked anything.

Well, I feel like I had a hearty laugh at the expense of that parish. Whether it was wrong or right is for God to decide, but I'm sure God snickers plenty every time my pathetic little voice cracks during the Megalynarion.

What makes it funny is the shocking incongruence of it, like the monks beating themselves in the head with boards or the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" bit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

If any church of any denomination anywhere ever comes up with a "Liturgy of St. Monty of Python", should I lend them one of my fierce killer rabbits for liturgical use? :)

Maximus

18th May 2005, 06:36 PM

Well, I feel like I had a hearty laugh at the expense of that parish. Whether it was wrong or right is for God to decide, but I'm sure God snickers plenty every time my pathetic little voice cracks during the Megalynarion.

I laughed, too.

It did me good like a medicine.

It was not a mocking laugh, though, and it cost that parish nothing.

What their priest has done to the liturgy, that comes at their expense.

If any church of any denomination anywhere ever comes up with a "Liturgy of St. Monty of Python", should I lend them one of my fierce killer rabbits for liturgical use? :)

Only if they are transported by African swallows.

RobNJ

18th May 2005, 06:38 PM

What makes it funny is the shocking incongruence of it, like the monks beating themselves in the head with boards or the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch" bit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Well,since you brought up the subject............

Maximus

18th May 2005, 06:41 PM

Well,since you brought up the subject............

We should be able to purchase those here at CF!

Photios

18th May 2005, 06:41 PM

A friend of mine and I once wondered if we should write to the Patriarch of Antioch, or Metropolitan Philip, asking if there really is a Holy Hand Grenade and if we could see it, or if maybe they wouldn't get the joke.

Alexis OCA

18th May 2005, 07:24 PM

You may search for the Holy Hand Grenade BUT NO ONE EXPECTS...

InnerPhyre

18th May 2005, 07:48 PM

You may search for the Holy Hand Grenade BUT NO ONE EXPECTS...

^_^

elizabethevangeline

18th May 2005, 07:57 PM

should I lend them one of my fierce killer rabbits for liturgical use? :)

You mean the bunny you keep handy up there amongst your special items? :D

OrthodoxyUSA

18th May 2005, 08:52 PM

Only Antiochian's are allowed to handle the "Holy Grenaden"

Rilian

18th May 2005, 08:57 PM

Oh, okay. I will look if somebody makes a reference to something interesting in another forum

I wasn't offended. I think everyone should read the Filioque thread. They even brought up Lyons and Florence, that was apropos.

A leopard doesn't change his spots. They Latins haven't changed theirs. Better that everyone is aware of that.

nicodemus

18th May 2005, 09:45 PM

Only Antiochian's are allowed to handle the "Holy Grenaden"
I thought Holy Grenadens were saints from

http://www.globosapiens.net/subapp_countries/app_data/maps/grenada-map.jpg

stillerfan

18th May 2005, 09:49 PM

I've also heard it said that the Roman Empire officially fell in 1917 with the Martyrdom of the Tsar since through some marriages and political arrangement the seat of power had been transferred from Constantinople to Moscow. Of course, that may just be a theory and springboard for deep politcal science discussions, but it's interesting nonetheless.

By the way- for my Russophile brothers- is it "Czar" or "Tsar"? From my very limited knowledge of the Cyrillic Alphabet, it would seem that "Tsar" is more correct, but since it's a form of "Caesar" I can seen "Czar" making sense too... does it matter?

Moses

it could be either one, really, Czar or Tsar... :cool:

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 09:50 PM

I don't look at OBOB.

I rarely do, but when I do it makes me sad when I see all the anti-Orthodox posts and specifically anti-TAW posts. I am so close to so many Catholics and Catholicism helped me in so many ways to bring me to Orthodoxy and so it is always sad for me to see such bitterness.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Photini

18th May 2005, 09:53 PM

I rarely venture to OBOB anymore either. And when I do, it is to look for specific people there that I have become very fond of. Other than that....I stay in TAW....and occassionally the arcade.

stillerfan

18th May 2005, 09:58 PM

ok, i feel extremely late in replying to this thread..... i need to get on here much more often.....

Matrona

18th May 2005, 10:00 PM

It was not a mocking laugh, though, and it cost that parish nothing.

What their priest has done to the liturgy, that comes at their expense.

Maximus, you always have the most interesting way of making me think of things in a new light. :thumbsup:

Having another look at that video, I realized that the priest in question appears rather mature, as in, he is probably old enough to remember what the Roman Catholic church was like before Vatican II.

They weren't so far from home back then. :(

nicodemus

18th May 2005, 10:00 PM

I'm not sure I've ever been to any non-Orthodox religious forum on CF except the Messianic Jewish forum.

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 10:02 PM

Maximus, you always have the most interesting way of making me think of things in a new light. :thumbsup:

Having another look at that video, I realized that the priest in question appears rather mature, as in, he is probably old enough to remember what the Roman Catholic church was like before Vatican II.

They weren't so far from home back then. :(

It seems that people from that time period are the most likely to favor such protestantizations... it's the young people who were brought up with them who want to revert to pre-Vatican II customs. I guess it's in many ways the American impulse of rebelling against your parents and your childhood...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

nicodemus

18th May 2005, 10:08 PM

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 10:09 PM

That's probably part of it, but I also think a lot of younger Christian people are starting to realize how off the deep end and how off the mark many confessions have become/are becoming and want something more solid.

I agree.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Photini

18th May 2005, 10:14 PM

You know, it's that kind of dancing and clapping stuff that caused me never to take Protestantism( I was in a non-denom type church) very seriously. I never did like pep rallies.

Photini

18th May 2005, 10:15 PM

Rilian

18th May 2005, 10:27 PM

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 10:27 PM

You know, it's that kind of dancing and clapping stuff that caused me never to take Protestantism( I was in a non-denom type church) very seriously. I never did like pep rallies.

Yeah, same, coming from a non-Christian outlook (I always favored Catholicism.) It just always seemed to be paired with self-help books and diets and large exuberant parties... which now I know is not entirely true, and generally only in this country... but yeah, it always kind of turned me off.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Marjorie

18th May 2005, 10:28 PM

I don't get that impression at all. Every Catholic I know, and I mean every one, favors the Protestantizations. They actually they say they want more, not less.

Hmm, really? Maybe it's a regional thing though.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Rilian

18th May 2005, 10:29 PM

Rilian

18th May 2005, 10:39 PM

Hmm, really? Maybe it's a regional thing though.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Sure, and it's just my experience.

I have Catholic extended family. I went to a Catholic University in the Midwest. I lived most of my life on the West Coast, I'm in the Northeast now. I've attended mass in all those places at probably twenty five different churches. Most of the religious people I've known are Catholic. I can only go by what I've run in to and what they've told me.

I read somewhere there's some diocese where something like 25% of the people don't believe the the elements are the body and blood of Christ. Can you imagine a quarter of the laity saying this? That's just unimaginable to me. You have the thing that started this thread. There's this article (http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/podles.htm) talking about the spread of gender neutral language, which I've experienced first hand. The list goes on and on.

They're moving further away.

Matrona

18th May 2005, 10:39 PM

I don't get that impression at all. Every Catholic I know, and I mean every one, favors the Protestantizations. They actually they say they want more, not less.

The priest at my campus's RC mission sits down in a big armchair to read the Gospel and give the homily. It might have been intended to be comforting or something, but the visual impression I got was, "Story time!"

I wonder, if I visited back there and made note of any liturgical abuse and wrote about it to the Vatican, would the Vatican read my letter? :scratch:

Dust and Ashes

18th May 2005, 11:01 PM

You know, it's that kind of dancing and clapping stuff that caused me never to take Protestantism( I was in a non-denom type church) very seriously. I never did like pep rallies.

READY...OK!!!

WE GOT SPIRIT, YES WE DO!!!

WE GOT SPIRIT, HOW 'BOUT YOU???

:D

Oy, I so do not miss all of that.

nicodemus

19th May 2005, 12:10 AM

Read this. Earthly Empires (http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_21/b3934001_mz001.htm).
Perhaps I should've said "a sizable minority of young Christians are looking for something deeper." Many others are clearly going off the deep end. A friend of mine has joined something I just about consider a cult though it has some super loose affiliation to the Presbyterian church. Anybody that goes to that church can't stop talking about their pastor. It is ALL about that guy. It's creepy. Their wedding was so bizarre (performed by the pastor) and it really turned my wife & I off after we left. It didn't even feel like a wedding, but more like a big joke (their dog was in the wedding.)

nicodemus

19th May 2005, 12:12 AM

You know, it's that kind of dancing and clapping stuff that caused me never to take Protestantism( I was in a non-denom type church) very seriously. I never did like pep rallies.
One of the most vivid images I remember from the church I left before I became Orthodox is the preacher calling for us to give an "applause offering" to God. After the service, he asked for this, and everybody just started clapping, and then as the clapping got more vigorous people started hooting and hollering like we were at a football game. It was bizarre.

nicodemus

19th May 2005, 12:15 AM

There's this article (http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/podles.htm) talking about the spread of gender neutral language, which I've experienced first hand.

I'm sure those people couldn't comprehend how I dislike the "de-elevated" language that's abandoned "Thee" "Thou" "Thy" "Thine" in the Liturgy!

Maximus

19th May 2005, 01:25 AM

It seems that people from that time period are the most likely to favor such protestantizations... it's the young people who were brought up with them who want to revert to pre-Vatican II customs. I guess it's in many ways the American impulse of rebelling against your parents and your childhood...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

I don't think it's a generational thing at all, nor do I think it has anything to do with rebellion.

I know Latins of all ages who absolutely despise the changes in their Church since Vatican II.

And I have encountered Orthodox who in many ways have the Vatican II mentality.

It's all about the liberal we know best attitude, the belief in an "ascent of Man," that the current generation always knows better than those that preceded it.

Folks of all ages suffer from it, just as there are folks of all ages who don't.

Matrona

19th May 2005, 01:34 AM

It's all about the liberal we know best attitude, the belief in an "ascent of Man," that the current generation always knows better than those that preceded it.

Folks of all ages suffer from it, just as there are folks of all ages who don't.

I've noticed that liberals are tolerant of every single viewpoint that can be conceived by humankind.... except for the viewpoints of those who disagree with them!

Irish Melkite

19th May 2005, 02:37 AM

I'm not sure, but in the Middle East isn't the Orthodox Church called "Roman Orthodox" and the Catholic Church called the "Latin Church"? It's been a long time since I heard that so I'm not sure if I got it right.

Moses,

In Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and other Middle Eastern countries in that region, the Antiochian Orthodox Church is generally referred to as "Roum Orthodox" and the Melkite Catholic Church as "Roum Catholique", the reference to Rome in each instance being to Constantinople or "New Rome". I'm unfamiliar with what term is used for the Latin Church there, as it has such a small presence as to not merit a lot of attention.

Many years,

Neil

prodromos

19th May 2005, 03:35 AM

If any church of any denomination anywhere ever comes up with a "Liturgy of St. Monty of Python", should I lend them one of my fierce killer rabbits for liturgical use? :)I'm not sure if the monks on Mount Athos pray for the snakes there (and there are plenty of snakes on Mount Athos) so there is unlikely to be such a liturgy...but Matrona, would you be so kind as to translate "Holy Mountain Python" into French for us :D ("Agion Oros" is Greek for "Holy Mountain")

John.

nicodemus

19th May 2005, 04:12 AM

I've noticed that liberals are tolerant of every single viewpoint that can be conceived by humankind.... except for the viewpoints of those who disagree with them!
That's the funny thing about most uber liberals. They're tolerant unless you disagree with them. They're all about free speech, unless you disagree with them. They say you have to have respect for dissenting viewpoints, unless you disagree with them...

Alexis OCA

19th May 2005, 09:22 AM

Sure, and it's just my experience.

I have Catholic extended family. I went to a Catholic University in the Midwest. I lived most of my life on the West Coast, I'm in the Northeast now. I've attended mass in all those places at probably twenty five different churches. Most of the religious people I've known are Catholic. I can only go by what I've run in to and what they've told me.

I read somewhere there's some diocese where something like 25% of the people don't believe the the elements are the body and blood of Christ. Can you imagine a quarter of the laity saying this? That's just unimaginable to me. You have the thing that started this thread. There's this article (http://www.ignatius.com/magazines/hprweb/podles.htm) talking about the spread of gender neutral language, which I've experienced first hand. The list goes on and on.

They're moving further away.

I agree. What you read on OBOB is much more conservative than the general roman catholic population. I read some stats that show that over 60% of practicing catholics have doubt abouts the real presence and compliance with the church's teachings on birth control, sterilization, euthanasia, and divorce go largely ignored. I think general theological and liturgical innovations and liturgical practices like that shown in the OP (in addition to poor catechesis and the recent scandals) have contributed to the church's loss of moral authority and have created confusion and a lax attitude among the general population of roman catholics. As I've said before it will be very interesting to see what the new Pope will do and how catholics, especially U.S. catholics and Bishops, will respond to any correctives.

Eusebios

19th May 2005, 10:08 AM

Read this. Earthly Empires (http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_21/b3934001_mz001.htm).
Man, I couldn't even make it through that whole piece. I actually don't mind watching a bit of OSteen every once in a while, but this article makes me want to wretch!
In Xp,
Eusebios.
:bow:

Maximus

19th May 2005, 10:19 AM

I agree. What you read on OBOB is much more conservative than the general roman catholic population. I read some stats that show that over 60% of practicing catholics have doubt abouts the real presence and compliance with the church's teachings on birth control, sterilization, euthanasia, and divorce go largely ignored. I think general theological and liturgical innovations and liturgical practices like that shown in the OP (in addition to poor catechesis and the recent scandals) have contributed to the church's loss of moral authority and have created confusion and a lax attitude among the general population of roman catholics. As I've said before it will be very interesting to see what the new Pope will do and how catholics, especially U.S. catholics and Bishops, will respond to any correctives.

I could be wrong, but I think that may be a "blue state" phenomenom.

In urban areas Latins may tend to be somewhat liberal, particularly on the Left Coast.

In the heartland they tend to be more conservative.

elizabethevangeline

19th May 2005, 10:31 AM

One of the most vivid images I remember from the church I left before I became Orthodox is the preacher calling for us to give an "applause offering" to God. After the service, he asked for this, and everybody just started clapping, and then as the clapping got more vigorous people started hooting and hollering like we were at a football game. It was bizarre.

groan...I recognize that. UG.

I always thot something must be wrong with me that I was so resistant to all the dancing, clapping, pep rally stuff.

Do I dare say...it's nice that maybe my personal preference might actually line up with God's preference in this?

Matrona

19th May 2005, 11:41 AM

I'm not sure if the monks on Mount Athos pray for the snakes there (and there are plenty of snakes on Mount Athos) so there is unlikely to be such a liturgy...but Matrona, would you be so kind as to translate "Holy Mountain Python" into French for us :D ("Agion Oros" is Greek for "Holy Mountain")

John.

La montagne sainte... Not sure about Python, but something like Monty Python might be lifted directly instead of translated: "La Montagne Sainte Python" :D