Baptism

[RobNJ]

A question... Does a convert to Orthodoxy need to be re-Baptized, if the original Baptism was trinitarian, with water and perfomed by an ordained minister?

[CFoxDWH]

It depends on the bishop.

[gzt]

generally, no. but if one were to be baptized, it would not be a rebaptism, it would have to be because your first baptism was not a real baptism.

[Orthosdoxa]

Right. It just depends, and in these cases, we submit to the authority of our priest/bishop. I was baptized, because I couldn't remember if I'd had a triniarian baptism or not. My husband was chrismated only, because he had received a trinitarian dunking, and the chrismation takes what was lacking in the former action and fills it with grace.

So, if you ever decide to become Orthodox, the answer, like many others is, "Ask your priest!" :D

[nicodemus]

Excellent answers given by others.

One thing I will add though, to my knowledge ANYONE that joins the Orthodox Church on Mount Athos gets baptized regardless of what they'd done previously.

I knew a deacon that got baptized on Mount Athos and he said their policy is everyone that is a convert gets baptized regardless.

[gtsecc]

It can't hurt to go under one more time can it?

[Maximus]

I was baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church and was received by chrismation into the Orthodox Church.

Being received in such a manner is not an acknowledgement that one has already been baptized into the Church. It is instead an exercise of the Church's power of oikonomia (economy), by which she renders an otherwise empty form of godliness a grace-filled sacrament.

Many Orthodox bishops, priests, and theologians are emphasizing a different approach these days, the approach known as akribia (rigor, strictness), which requires that all converts to the Orthodox Church be baptized. The reason for this is that there is a lot of ecclesiological confusion now, with many of the heterodox convinced that they are already inside the Church. Receiving converts from Christian sects by anything other than baptism reinforces this confusion, especially in those outside the Orthodox Church. Requiring converts to be baptized makes a clear statement of the Orthodox position concerning the nature of the Church.

Either method - economy or rigor - is perfectly legitimate. The local bishop makes the final call, but I don't think too many of them would deny a convert who wishes to be baptized and chrismated.

[nicodemus]

I was received by baptism though I'd had a "sprinkle baptism" as an infant as a Methodist and "non-denominational baptism" at a evangelical Christian rock festival just out of college. I've only been baptized once as far as I'm concerned and it was the Orthodox baptism.

Like Maximus say, there are instances were both courses of action are correct. For instance, an elderly man at my old parish (in his late 70s/early 80s) was received by chrismation from the RCC as he was too old/feeble to get in the font.

[Matrona]

Archbishop DMITRI (OCA) has threatened to defrock priests who baptize people who have already received a heterodox trinitarian baptism.

I was baptized because I had never been baptized before, so I reckon I'm okay in everybody's book. :) But, if I had received heterodox baptism, I would have begged for Orthodox baptism, because of the filioque. I would have accepted the end decision of my bishop, but I would have begged for baptism.

[RobNJ]

But, if I had received heterodox baptism, I would have begged for Orthodox baptism, because of the filioque. I would have accepted the end decision of my bishop, but I would have begged for baptism.

Actually, I've been to Baptisms in Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed, & Episcopal churches, and the subject never came up.... They all used the Apostle's Creed, if I remember correctly.

[Dust and Ashes]

It can't hurt to go under one more time can it?

Actually, 3 more times. ;)


I was baptized in a Baptist Church back in the early '90s (Trinitarian) and again in the late '90s in a local charismatic Church (Oneness) but I have asked if I can be recieved by baptism and Father said he didn't see a problem. My wife plans to be chrismated because she recieved a triple immersion baptism as a child at a Missionary Church in Indiana and is comfortable with that.

[Kolya]

The local bishop makes the final call, but I don't think too many of them would deny a convert who wishes to be baptized and chrismated.

I and Seraphima really wanted to be baptised, but my previous baptism was a Trinitarian total immersion - so the priest said 'Niet' and Chrismation was the order of the day.

[Rilian]

Archbishop DMITRI (OCA) has threatened to defrock priests who baptize people who have already received a heterodox trinitarian baptism.

I disagree with the stance of the bishop. Both practices can be historically justified in the church. I think a blanket policy is wrong anyway, I think it should depend on the individual circumstances of each person and how they were baptized.

One thing I will add though, to my knowledge ANYONE that joins the Orthodox Church on Mount Athos gets baptized regardless of what they'd done previously.

I believe that is also still the practice at any monasteries that follow that Athonite rule. Unfortunately it is not just limited to reception. My priests brother in law was received by chrismation and when he went to St. Anthony's monastery in Arizona they would not commune him.

[Marjorie]

I disagree with the stance of the bishop. Both practices can be historically justified in the church. I think a blanket policy is wrong anyway, I think it should depend on the individual circumstances of each person and how they were baptized.

I agree.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Mary of Bethany]

I'm under Abp. DMITRI, a fellow ex-Southern Baptist, and since I was baptized as a child back in the '60s when baptism in the SBC was definitely a Trinitarian "dunking"; and I was able to have the records sent to me, there was no question that I would be received into the Church by Chrismation only.


Mary

[RobNJ]

It can't hurt to go under one more time can it?

Well, my Baptism was done by an ordained Presbyterian minister...who just happened to be my grandfather;)

[Rilian]

I can say personally I'm glad my priest decided that we will be received by baptism, though I would have accepted his decision either way.

[Jason of Wyoming]

This is an interesting discussion.

I received baptism by immersion in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. But even had my Priest given me the option, I would have insisted on re-baptism. Call it "Athonite" influences, call it my LDS upbringing where we baptised everyone regardless, but I believe it's "better" to be rebaptised than just chrismated.

Just my opinion.

[Happy Orthodox]

In Russia, they baptise all converts. There, they cannot even allow themselves to think about receiving a convert by chrismation, it will be an outrage! One priest refused communion to my friend just because she raised her eyes when she approached the Cup and looked at the priest... You can guess that the "blanket policy" is in the fullest gear there. I myself feel like I would go with the Russians (not just because I am one :)) and the Athonites. It's more safe that way, the Ancient Way ;)

I laughed when my friend answered the question "were you baptised as a Protestant" -- "I got WET as a Protestant!" LOL :D

Tanya

[The Prokeimenon!]

When I called my childhood Church to get my Baptismal record, I got a lecture from the new Pastor about how the Bible says that Baptism is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thanks, Pastor, but did the old Pastor think the Bible said that? I don't remember, but I was definately dunked. Then I called the Church where I was Baptized for a second time, and they don't keep records. It's interesting that "Baptists" don't keep any records of "Baptisms" but that's another story.

Anyway, at my 2nd Baptism, the Pastor said "I Baptize thee, my brother in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; in Jesus' name (dunk) Amen." So he had all his bases covered. My Pirest decided that since I had 2 Baptisms by immersion, and at least one of them was definately Trinitarian (even though there was a "Oneness" loophole), I would be received through Confession and Chrismation.

My wife was received through Baptism because she had been Baptised, I believe, in a small Northwestern Baptist Convention that had no records or "standard" practice and she had no way or knowing or finding out if it was Trinitarian. The decision was made by Bishop BASIL.

I really wanted to be re-Baptised at first, but quickly accepted that: a)it was very "Baptist" of me to want to be re-Baptised every time I make a "decision" for Christ, and: b)the decision is in the hands of the Bishop, and God will not "punish" me if for some reason the Bishop made the wrong choice. It's best to be obedient to the Bishop.

Moses

[Kolya]

In Russia, they baptise all converts. There, they cannot even allow themselves to think about receiving a convert by chrismation, it will be an outrage! One priest refused communion to my friend just because she raised her eyes when she approached the Cup and looked at the priest... You can guess that the "blanket policy" is in the fullest gear there. I myself feel like I would go with the Russians (not just because I am one :)) and the Athonites. It's more safe that way, the Ancient Way ;)

I laughed when my friend answered the question "were you baptised as a Protestant" -- "I got WET as a Protestant!" LOL :D

Tanya

I'm at a very strict Russian Orthodox-MP Patriarchate church, and my wife and I actually 'pleaded' for a re-baptism, since we had come from a 'fringe' christian sect (SDA). At first he agred to this, but after consulting with his bishop - Metropolitan Kiril (Who is in charge of ROC church external relations) - the answer was "no, You only need Chrismation".:preach:
To say we were dissapointed is an understatement, but that's how it turned out.
A fellow parishioner who was also chrismated came to Father in tears because the Greeks would not commune her as she was not baptised! Father told her to tell them that she WAS baptised, so she did, with a clear consience.
So it looks like even in the Russian (ROC-MOSPAT) churches there is no clear guideline, according to what you stated.

BTW, Seraphima and I both have very beautiful Baptimal Certificates - in Russian - for anyone else that may not think we are truly 'Baptised Orthodox'. If we ever toured Russia and produced our certificaates, there would be no hesitation to commune us after we've said our confessions.:)

[Akathist]

My priest initally said that I did not have to be received by baptism most likely because I was sprinkled in a trinitarian baptism as an infant in the United Methodist Church. However he said it was up to the Bishop. I had also had an emersion baptism as an adult in a Pentatostal Church but that was in the name of Jesus Christ only.

I had to get the certificates of baptism from the two sources and turn them in to the Priest who had to discuss the situation with the Bishop for me (as well as the 10 others coming in to the church at the same time I was.)

I gave him a letter stating that I wished to be received by baptism, although I would respect the Bishop's decision. I wanted to be baptised again for many reasons but mostly due to wanting the fullness of the conversion experience.

Nevertheless, I want to stress, that while I asked for baptism, I really had no direct say. The Bishop could have said "no" and I would have accepted it. In my case the Bishop's response was that if this is what I would like, I could be baptised. I think that had I not requested it, that I would have only been chrismated.

[Maximus]

When I lived in Russia I received the Holy Eucharist after confessing to a Russian priest. He never asked how I was received into the Orthodox Church; he simply accepted my word that I am an Orthodox Christian. I didn't have to produce any "papers." :)

[nicodemus]

I never got a baptismal certificate. I was asked for a copy of it or a letter from my priest though when I moved to another city.

[Marjorie]

One of the only times I am happy that I was not raised Christian is when I read discussions like this... it was a very clear-cut decision for me, haha.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Matrona]

I never got a baptismal certificate. I was asked for a copy of it or a letter from my priest though when I moved to another city.

I think you have to send away to the archdiocese to get one; it costs a nominal fee. Mine from the Antiochians cost $10 IIRC and you get a nice certificate suitable for framing.

[Photini]

I was received by Baptism. (I did have a Protestant baptism before.) It was basically my choice though. The priest would have done it either way...but I was advised by the monks at the monastery to have a full Orthodox baptism to dispell any doubt or confusion. I have my certificates...and I have a little card to keep in my purse/wallet that says "I am an Orthodox Christian, in case of emergency please contact the nearest Orthodox priest." :)

[Marjorie]

and I have a little card to keep in my purse/wallet that says "I am an Orthodox Christian, in case of emergency please contact the nearest Orthodox priest." :)

I want one of those! Where did you get one... or did you make it yourself?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Matrona]

I disagree with the stance of the bishop. Both practices can be historically justified in the church. I think a blanket policy is wrong anyway, I think it should depend on the individual circumstances of each person and how they were baptized.

I also disagree with the bishop, especially the threat. Personally, I think all converts should be baptized just in case. I think it would be better to baptize twice by accident, than to purposefully never baptize at all! We don't know that grace doesn't exist outside the Church, but we don't know that it does, either!

There are instructions in The Rudder where to chrismate and where to baptize and chrismate. I'll reproduce them when I find them again.

[Marjorie]

I think you have to send away to the archdiocese to get one; it costs a nominal fee. Mine from the Antiochians cost $10 IIRC and you get a nice certificate suitable for framing.

Is that the norm? I got mine (OCA) for free. I love it so much and am always so afraid that I'll lose it.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Matrona]

I want one of those! Where did you get one... or did you make it yourself?

In IC XC,
Marjorie
They gave out little calendar cards in GOARCH churches this year. They have the holidays throughout the year and also a note that says "I am an Orthodox Christian", etc. I have one because someone gave me one. But before I got it, I made one myself and named the local GO priest (he knows me and is more readily available than my parish priest) as my emergency contact.

[Photini]

I want one of those! Where did you get one... or did you make it yourself?

In IC XC,
Marjorie
I got it from church...It's the little wallet sized calendar that the Greek Archdiocese of America puts out. :)

And my baptismal certificate was free as well.

[Marjorie]

They gave out little calendar cards in GOARCH churches this year. They have the holidays throughout the year and also a note that says "I am an Orthodox Christian", etc. I have one because someone gave me one. But before I got it, I made one myself and named the local GO priest (he knows me and is more readily available than my parish priest) as my emergency contact.

It's such a good idea. I am really paranoid and morbid sometimes so I'm always worried about if I collapse in the middle of the street and so on. But my cross is pretty much obviously Orthodox...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Speaking of morbidity, I worry about, should I die a sudden death, whether my parents would know to give me a proper Orthodox funeral. I know they won't pray for me when I die, but I have friends who would make sure to have panakhidas read, the psalter prayed, etc, but the funeral is something my parents would most likely control. I'd better get married soon if only to guarantee a proper burial if I should die suddenly...

[Marjorie]

Speaking of morbidity, I worry about, should I die a sudden death, whether my parents would know to give me a proper Orthodox funeral. I know they won't pray for me when I die, but I have friends who would make sure to have panakhidas read, the psalter prayed, etc, but the funeral is something my parents would most likely control. I'd better get married soon if only to guarantee a proper burial if I should die suddenly...

I used to worry about that though, but my parents said that they would give me a funeral that I would want. I only feel bad that all my old Jewish relatives would be scandalized by it... I felt worse about that though before my step-great-grandma Rose died (may her memory be eternal)... she once commented on my dad's cousin Jennie's boyfriend Brian: "he's so nice-- see? You don't have to be Jewish to be nice."

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Matrona]

Speaking of morbidity, I worry about, should I die a sudden death, whether my parents would know to give me a proper Orthodox funeral. I know they won't pray for me when I die, but I have friends who would make sure to have panakhidas read, the psalter prayed, etc, but the funeral is something my parents would most likely control. I'd better get married soon if only to guarantee a proper burial if I should die suddenly...

I worry about that, too, so I'm trying to figure out a way to outline my wishes in a concrete way that even my parents wouldn't be able to break.

I've tried several times to write a will, but I am so clueless about it that my attempts always end up sounding more like a suicide note! "By the time you read this, I will be dead..."

[RobNJ]

I've tried several times to write a will, but I am so clueless about it that my attempts always end up sounding more like a suicide note! "By the time you read this, I will be dead..."

look up "on-line wills", there's bound to be something

[Marjorie]

I've tried to write an unofficial will a few times just so my parents know what I want... but then I always realize I don't have any requests except a) bury me Orthodox and b) tell online people... I'm like "ummm I leave all my stuff to... whoever wants it..."

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Well, "bury me Orthodox" is about all I'd need, too. Maybe add a few exclamation points. And adding as a postscript, "Under no circumstances am I to be given a Protestant funeral or memorial service of any kind."

[Marjorie]

Well, "bury me Orthodox" is about all I'd need, too. Maybe add a few exclamation points. And adding as a postscript, "Under no circumstances am I to be given a Protestant funeral or memorial service of any kind."

:D :D :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

The PS is very necessary, my uncle is the pastor of the church I grew up in, my parents are very involved in their own church, so without explicit instructions to the contrary, I don't know, they might assume, not realizing how it has to be.

[nicodemus]

The PS is very necessary, my uncle is the pastor of the church I grew up in, my parents are very involved in their own church, so without explicit instructions to the contrary, I don't know, they might assume, not realizing how it has to be.
A little over a year ago, a friend of mine (only around 30 years old) died of a seizure in the middle of the night (his roommate was out of town.) He was the only Orthodox person in his family and thankfully the family knew or were instructed to give him an Orthodox funeral and they did so.

[Khaleas]

Is that the norm? I got mine (OCA) for free. I love it so much and am always so afraid that I'll lose it.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

Since I was chrismated over Pasha and we all know how busy the priest is at that time I did not get my certificate right then. Father will get to it when he has a chance... and I'll remind him when I see him next. It will be treasured but my cross reminds me every day of my path and my conversion. :crosseo:

[Kolya]

Speaking of morbidity, I worry about, should I die a sudden death, whether my parents would know to give me a proper Orthodox funeral. I know they won't pray for me when I die, but I have friends who would make sure to have panakhidas read, the psalter prayed, etc, but the funeral is something my parents would most likely control. I'd better get married soon if only to guarantee a proper burial if I should die suddenly...

Since all our relatives are non-Orthodox, we have it specifically noted in our will tha we receive a Russian Orthodox Burial.

[Kolya]

Is that the norm? I got mine (OCA) for free. I love it so much and am always so afraid that I'll lose it.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

The ROC gave ours free as well. We keep them inside the altar table in our icon corner along with the candles, incence, holy water and oil.