erinipassi
14th May 2005, 09:27 AM
Hi Shirija,
I’ve opened this thread so we can discuss any questions you have about the Coptic Orthodox Church. Anyone is welcome to post questions to ask about Coptic Orthodox Church and we will try to answer to the best of our abilities.
Ok the question you had was:
Another question that I have concerns worship: in my background, everything is really laid back and people just enter into worship whole heartedly. If you were to visit my church, you'd see people dancing, lifting up their hands, waving flags and banners and speaking in tounges. Then as worship progresses, it becomes less of a celebrations in so much as the mood shifts to one of deep reverance and awe (but still uplifted hands and speaking in tounges). So when I went to the Coptic service, I didn't understand it. I'm so accustomed to a spontaneous setting; but it's not like that in a Coptic setting (as far as my limited experiance call tell). So what is worship like for you? How does it work? Is the heart still in the same place, only it's manifested differently?
We symbolise Coptic Orthodox worship with these passages, when Isaiah spoke about Jesus he said, “…..He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” (Isaiah 53: 2-3).
So Orthodox worship does not have outward beauty as such, nothing that would attract people to it, but it has a depth and this depth was passed down from the Apostles. That means that the Orthodox had to carefully keep everything exactly the same down to the last detail so that it may not change what the Apostles have faithfully handed down. So something that was preserved from 2000 years ago, will not have an appeal to a world that is seeking to modernise life constantly. It is so easy feel instant uplifting by the human senses with Christian songs. But with Coptic Orthodox worship, the person goes deeper using their spiritual ears and spiritual eyes. A person needs to listen with the depth of their soul, rather than through the human senses. When listening to a Coptic Orthodox tune, the beauty may not lie in the tune themselves as such, but more in the depth of meditation.
You will notice that the Devine Liturgy is mostly sung by the human voice without the use of instruments with the exception of the Cymbals in the Coptic Orthodox Church. This is because human voice is the purest form of worship and the focus then becomes on the words said, rather than being distracted emotionally by the musical instruments. You will see in Revelations 4, how the angels, the elders and the heavenly hosts use their voice alone as a form of the purest form of worship. This doesn’t mean that we can’t use modern technology or modern music, but within its context.
For example, the Devine Liturgy will have to be exactly as it was 2000 years ago and obviously the Devine Liturgy is sung in slightly different tunes and different languages according to the culture. But say, modern instruments and modern Christian songs, can be sung outside Devine Liturgy times, during a spiritual activity like a youth activity. So here we have, preserving Orthodox worship as it was 2000 years ago and also having a separate activity where people can express their talents in different ways. In the Devine Liturgy you will hear the cymbals are sounded by the deacons while they are singing. The cymbals sound somewhat like clanging bells and it is used to measure the rhythms and to announce the joyful state that the church lives in.
To understand Coptic Orthodox Devine Liturgy and worship, let’s explore together Revelations 4: 2-11 :
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
"Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!"
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
"You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created."
When you read this Chapter, you get the atmosphere of deep reverence and a type of worship that is heavenly. The setup of the Coptic Orthodox Church is a re-enactment of revelations as well as an extension of the Old Testament setup of God’s temple. So for example you see the alter where the priest is standing. The alter represents the throne of God as in Revelations and the shape of table cubicle in the alter symbolises the Lord Jesus Christ’s grave. Now, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, was an Eternal Sacrifice. So when the priest stands before the alter similar to the old testament, the priest gives thanks to God who granted him the honor to serve the holy Alter. Confessing his sins as well as the people’s sins, he prays that God accept His Son's Eternal Sacrifice on their behalf and recognize Him the Eternal Lamb of God, Who carries the sins of the world. The sacrifice of the Eucharist is also called the sacrifice of the thanksgiving.
In Revelations you see this in Chapter 5: “Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: ‘You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals;
For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Revelations 5: 8-10)
Hope this helps you let me know if you have any other questions and I am more than happy to answer them.
Love and blessings
erini :)
I’ve opened this thread so we can discuss any questions you have about the Coptic Orthodox Church. Anyone is welcome to post questions to ask about Coptic Orthodox Church and we will try to answer to the best of our abilities.
Ok the question you had was:
Another question that I have concerns worship: in my background, everything is really laid back and people just enter into worship whole heartedly. If you were to visit my church, you'd see people dancing, lifting up their hands, waving flags and banners and speaking in tounges. Then as worship progresses, it becomes less of a celebrations in so much as the mood shifts to one of deep reverance and awe (but still uplifted hands and speaking in tounges). So when I went to the Coptic service, I didn't understand it. I'm so accustomed to a spontaneous setting; but it's not like that in a Coptic setting (as far as my limited experiance call tell). So what is worship like for you? How does it work? Is the heart still in the same place, only it's manifested differently?
We symbolise Coptic Orthodox worship with these passages, when Isaiah spoke about Jesus he said, “…..He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” (Isaiah 53: 2-3).
So Orthodox worship does not have outward beauty as such, nothing that would attract people to it, but it has a depth and this depth was passed down from the Apostles. That means that the Orthodox had to carefully keep everything exactly the same down to the last detail so that it may not change what the Apostles have faithfully handed down. So something that was preserved from 2000 years ago, will not have an appeal to a world that is seeking to modernise life constantly. It is so easy feel instant uplifting by the human senses with Christian songs. But with Coptic Orthodox worship, the person goes deeper using their spiritual ears and spiritual eyes. A person needs to listen with the depth of their soul, rather than through the human senses. When listening to a Coptic Orthodox tune, the beauty may not lie in the tune themselves as such, but more in the depth of meditation.
You will notice that the Devine Liturgy is mostly sung by the human voice without the use of instruments with the exception of the Cymbals in the Coptic Orthodox Church. This is because human voice is the purest form of worship and the focus then becomes on the words said, rather than being distracted emotionally by the musical instruments. You will see in Revelations 4, how the angels, the elders and the heavenly hosts use their voice alone as a form of the purest form of worship. This doesn’t mean that we can’t use modern technology or modern music, but within its context.
For example, the Devine Liturgy will have to be exactly as it was 2000 years ago and obviously the Devine Liturgy is sung in slightly different tunes and different languages according to the culture. But say, modern instruments and modern Christian songs, can be sung outside Devine Liturgy times, during a spiritual activity like a youth activity. So here we have, preserving Orthodox worship as it was 2000 years ago and also having a separate activity where people can express their talents in different ways. In the Devine Liturgy you will hear the cymbals are sounded by the deacons while they are singing. The cymbals sound somewhat like clanging bells and it is used to measure the rhythms and to announce the joyful state that the church lives in.
To understand Coptic Orthodox Devine Liturgy and worship, let’s explore together Revelations 4: 2-11 :
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf, the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:
"Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!"
Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
"You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created."
When you read this Chapter, you get the atmosphere of deep reverence and a type of worship that is heavenly. The setup of the Coptic Orthodox Church is a re-enactment of revelations as well as an extension of the Old Testament setup of God’s temple. So for example you see the alter where the priest is standing. The alter represents the throne of God as in Revelations and the shape of table cubicle in the alter symbolises the Lord Jesus Christ’s grave. Now, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, was an Eternal Sacrifice. So when the priest stands before the alter similar to the old testament, the priest gives thanks to God who granted him the honor to serve the holy Alter. Confessing his sins as well as the people’s sins, he prays that God accept His Son's Eternal Sacrifice on their behalf and recognize Him the Eternal Lamb of God, Who carries the sins of the world. The sacrifice of the Eucharist is also called the sacrifice of the thanksgiving.
In Revelations you see this in Chapter 5: “Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying: ‘You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals;
For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." (Revelations 5: 8-10)
Hope this helps you let me know if you have any other questions and I am more than happy to answer them.
Love and blessings
erini :)