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mnphysicist
13th May 2005, 05:27 AM
I just found this forum, and have been spending way too much time here lurking. Wow, much to be learned, and with that, here is perhaps a controversial situation that has bothered me personally.

In many cases, technology is available to either cure, extend life, or provide palliative care only. However, such technology creates a huge burden, sometimes on the individual, and usually much more so on society. As a result, at least here in the US, we are transitioning more and more to rationed health care, either by private ins cos or by the govt. If we look at the parable of the Samaritan, imho soceity is becoming more and more like the priest that passed by on the other side of the road.

As individual Christians, most of us do not have the financial resources to provide such care, yet God is pretty explicit about the sanctity of life. Are we as individuals going against God's will by not taking every step in order to preserve life. Do we buy a new car, rather than giving $20,000 to the brother in Christ who's life may be extended as a result, and instead, choose the car, and let the disease take its course. Our societal background would suggest we let nature take its course, but in all seriousness, is this really what scriptures calls us to do? Remember the Samaritan not only helped the man at the road, he also paid for his care at the inn, rather than leaving him to die.

If we look at the recent tragedy with the lady in FL, what if the financial resources were not there to provide for her care? Would the body of believers step forward to absorb those costs? While one could say its the responsibility of govt, all one has to do is look at the decline in covered procedures for Medicare and Medicaid, and realize thats not going to be a viable solution for very much longer and in some cases, it is not even so today. If we go further, and look at the higher costs involved for the critically ill, effectively gov't is taking a stance that euthanasia through neglect is ok.

Going back again to the parable, I'm pretty sure that is not in accordance with God's will. Yet by the same token, our selfish nature, including soceity, a body of belivers, and as individuals will not step up to the plate. Are we effectively taking that stance as well?

To my understanding, I don't think scripture defines a line as to where that judgement can be made. Eg, as long as our personal comfort is not affected, we should preserve life; if it is, we can go on the other side of the road and still be within the will of God. Or, can we take the worlds view of death with dignity, low cost palliative care only, and still be within the will of God. Or, do we put human life above everything else, to remain within the will of God?

Personally I'd rather not burden individuals, the Church, or, society with keeping me alive if I'm at that stage, yet I am conflicted, as that stance also seems to be in contradiction to the will of God.

I'm searching for answers and guidance, ideally backed with scriptural references. I realize this is not simple by any means, but it has bothered me for a long time since my neighbor passed away. He had cancer, but due to being old, and having few financial resources, many procedures and treatments were not available to him. Some due to health care rationing in Medicare, other due to the fact that no one, not even a brother in Christ was able to take him for treatments all the time, and at 87 in ill health, he was unable to drive himself on many days.

I'll fess up right here... I walked on the other side of the road, except when it was convenient. If it was a weekend, sure I'd help. If it meant taking a day of vacation to do so, I'd be on the shoulder. There were also those in the church that helped out as well.... but trying not to be judgemental, or to justify my actions, even they took the other side it it was inconvenient. In retrospect, this is outside of the will of God, and plain and simple is sin.

Thankfully we do have Grace through Christ, yet Jesus commands us to follow him. With the advances in medical technology, following His call becomes more and more difficult all the time, especially when we have society and govt taking a stance in opposition. At least thats my perception.

Lastly, I'm a newbie here.... grew up in the Lutheran church, grew discontent with what I considered to be liberalization of the faith (even less content today) but am exceedingly encouraged by what I have read on the forums. Way cool stuff....

Any scriptural guidance would be much appreciated. Perhaps it just to rely on God's grace, perhaps there is some indepth commentary. Its a difficult one for me to come to terms with.

Ron

Jim47
13th May 2005, 06:57 AM
Hi Ron, and welcome to the forum.


Indeed hard questions. I have to leave in a little bit so I don't have time to look up scripture. The situation you gave example of your neighbor occurs every day. Oft times there are many of who could offer a little help and fail to do so, certainly not the good neighbor thing to do, but I'm sure if I searched my memory I would be found guilty too.

Here is my beliefs on letting or helping people die.

First of all the Florida lady was unique, I guess, anyway she wasn't in a comma and wasn't brain dead from what I could see, so taking her life by starvation was certainly against God's will.

If someone has to be hooked up to machines to put electric impulses into their brains so their organs function then in my eyes, they are already dead. Pulling the plug and letting them return to Our Father I don't believe is wrong.

If someone is terminally ill and perhaps has a painful disease such as cancer, putting them to death just to ease their suffering is nothing less then murder.

Refusing someone nuriushment even if by a feeding tube just to shorten their life is also murder. Can you imagine what people would think if we started eliminating death row inmates by starvation? We would all be viewed as heathens and murderers, but how some people can see this as O/K to end a sick persons life is beyond me.

ByzantineDixie
13th May 2005, 07:19 AM
Welcome mnphysicist! :wave: Glad you found us!

You questions are really too complex for me. But I did want to say "hey".

I believe I have the "sustaining life with artificial means" question down but I haven't thought about paying ordinary medical expenses for my neighbor. (Although I recall one incident but it was a relatively inexpensive thing as compared to the cost of a car!) I guess medical expenses seem like such a huge chunk of money....certainly beyond my ordinary means that the question has never crossed my mind.

One thing I like to keep in mind is principle 10 from the CTCR paper on End of Life Issues. (http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/careend.pdf)

Principle 10: Any decisions made in this highly complex area, and any actions taken that may later appear to have been wrong, have been redeemed by that forgiveness which is available to all who put their trust in the work and merits of mankind’s Savior and Redeemer.

I look forward to here what those more attuned to this kind of thing can offer.

Christ's Peace

SPALATIN
13th May 2005, 08:57 AM
I just found this forum, and have been spending way too much time here lurking. Wow, much to be learned, and with that, here is perhaps a controversial situation that has bothered me personally.

In many cases, technology is available to either cure, extend life, or provide palliative care only. However, such technology creates a huge burden, sometimes on the individual, and usually much more so on society. As a result, at least here in the US, we are transitioning more and more to rationed health care, either by private ins cos or by the govt. If we look at the parable of the Samaritan, imho soceity is becoming more and more like the priest that passed by on the other side of the road.

As individual Christians, most of us do not have the financial resources to provide such care, yet God is pretty explicit about the sanctity of life. Are we as individuals going against God's will by not taking every step in order to preserve life. Do we buy a new car, rather than giving $20,000 to the brother in Christ who's life may be extended as a result, and instead, choose the car, and let the disease take its course. Our societal background would suggest we let nature take its course, but in all seriousness, is this really what scriptures calls us to do? Remember the Samaritan not only helped the man at the road, he also paid for his care at the inn, rather than leaving him to die.

If we look at the recent tragedy with the lady in FL, what if the financial resources were not there to provide for her care? Would the body of believers step forward to absorb those costs? While one could say its the responsibility of govt, all one has to do is look at the decline in covered procedures for Medicare and Medicaid, and realize thats not going to be a viable solution for very much longer and in some cases, it is not even so today. If we go further, and look at the higher costs involved for the critically ill, effectively gov't is taking a stance that euthanasia through neglect is ok.

Going back again to the parable, I'm pretty sure that is not in accordance with God's will. Yet by the same token, our selfish nature, including soceity, a body of belivers, and as individuals will not step up to the plate. Are we effectively taking that stance as well?

To my understanding, I don't think scripture defines a line as to where that judgement can be made. Eg, as long as our personal comfort is not affected, we should preserve life; if it is, we can go on the other side of the road and still be within the will of God. Or, can we take the worlds view of death with dignity, low cost palliative care only, and still be within the will of God. Or, do we put human life above everything else, to remain within the will of God?

Personally I'd rather not burden individuals, the Church, or, society with keeping me alive if I'm at that stage, yet I am conflicted, as that stance also seems to be in contradiction to the will of God.

I'm searching for answers and guidance, ideally backed with scriptural references. I realize this is not simple by any means, but it has bothered me for a long time since my neighbor passed away. He had cancer, but due to being old, and having few financial resources, many procedures and treatments were not available to him. Some due to health care rationing in Medicare, other due to the fact that no one, not even a brother in Christ was able to take him for treatments all the time, and at 87 in ill health, he was unable to drive himself on many days.

I'll fess up right here... I walked on the other side of the road, except when it was convenient. If it was a weekend, sure I'd help. If it meant taking a day of vacation to do so, I'd be on the shoulder. There were also those in the church that helped out as well.... but trying not to be judgemental, or to justify my actions, even they took the other side it it was inconvenient. In retrospect, this is outside of the will of God, and plain and simple is sin.

Thankfully we do have Grace through Christ, yet Jesus commands us to follow him. With the advances in medical technology, following His call becomes more and more difficult all the time, especially when we have society and govt taking a stance in opposition. At least thats my perception.

Lastly, I'm a newbie here.... grew up in the Lutheran church, grew discontent with what I considered to be liberalization of the faith (even less content today) but am exceedingly encouraged by what I have read on the forums. Way cool stuff....

Any scriptural guidance would be much appreciated. Perhaps it just to rely on God's grace, perhaps there is some indepth commentary. Its a difficult one for me to come to terms with.

Ron

Good Samaritans are hard to find these days anywhere. Even though they can't be prosecuted they might be sued for something or other and then there is the fear of it being a scam to rob you or physically attack you. So to find someone who is oblivious to these things is rare.

Welcome to our forum. You said you grew up Lutheran but grew discontent with the liberalization of the faith. I am curious as to which synod you are or were in. here you will find us all over the spectrum. You will know us by our posts. Please tell us more about you and your faith and your church if you would.

Scott

PS I live in Minnesota (Apple Valley)

Protoevangel
13th May 2005, 12:34 PM
I’ll try to get deeper into the conversation later, but for now, I just want to say this:

Absolutely, we should be the Samaritan, and use every means at our disposal to help the sick and needy, even to the point where it inconveniences and hurts us ourselves. On the other hand this is Law, and while of grave importance, is not the basis upon which our Justification under God rests. So, it is fine to let it gnaw a little at your conscience, but there is a time to tell your conscience to drop it and glory in the fact that Christ did all the good deeds for you, and that no matter how miserably you fail to live up to the standard, Christ is your righteousness.

alabaster jar
13th May 2005, 01:36 PM
I relate to where you are coming from. I had eye surgery last Jan. and I could not drive myself. MY DH had to jump through hoops to get just one day off. He even had vacation days available and they still made a big deal out of it. Almost would have had less hassle if he would have lied and called in sick; which we weren't willing to do, of course.

You bring up the question of technology and medical costs and travel to appointments and all that that entails, which I think we give as we can afford to and we do what we can to help with dr. appoitments, etc., but I think it's also important to help nurture our neighbors and loved ones with a spiritual hand. What I'm getting at is that we can go and pray with someone and call them daily and pray for them wherever we are. Romans 1:9 "God knows how often I pray for you. Day and night I bring you and your needs in prayer to God, whom I serve with all my heart (*or in my spirit) by telling others the Good News about his Son."

When I was at home recovering, my SIL called me frequently and let me know she was praying for me and she gave me her love and encouragement. I also had a neighbor lady bring over cookies for me; we go to the same church. She happened to have went through a similar operation. I received letters/cards also from others. These seemingly little things meant a lot to me and were a comfort.