Why do people doubt what God has written in The Bible?

[Jim47]

I will confess that there was a time when I didn't understand how God accomplished some of the things in the Bible, but out of God's pure Grace He has blessed me with enough faith to take Him at His Word and to trust everything that He has written in the scritures.

I am not boasting in myself though it may sound like it, because I know that my faith was made possible purely out of God's Grace, and I will also confess that many of you here are much better Bible scholars than I am, but then why doesn't everyone that has been blessed with a Church that teaches God's Word in truth and purity also believe His Word?

Who are we, mere dust of the earth to set in judgement of Our Creator and have doubts of His teaching and what He has told us to do with our lives?

Isn't that nothing more that man's sinful pride that was so clearly made an example of in the OT and given to us as a warning so that we would not follow in their foot steps? Didn't God show us these things out of pure love and mercy so that we would believe Him and put our whole trust in Him?

If God's Word as written in the scriptures is true, and I have no doubts that every word is true, then why are we constantly rejecting His Word and saying out of our own puny wisdom that His Word doesn't apply for that part of lives anymore because these words were given to a particular church or city or group of people and in a setting much differant than our own? Do you think that we aren't just making dumb excuses for ourselves as to why we don't have to obey Our God and Lord? Do you think that God will accept these?

Shouldn't we rather be ashamed and humble ourselves before God and ask Him for wisdom and understanding?



Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Heb 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.



Please help me to understand why we can't trust God! :cry:

[SPALATIN]

I will confess that there was a time when I didn't understand how God accomplished some of the things in the Bible, but out of God's pure Grace He has blessed me with enough faith to take Him at His Word and to trust everything that He has written in the scritures.

I am not boasting in myself though it may sound like it, because I know that my faith was made possible purely out of God's Grace, and I will also confess that many of you here are much better Bible scholars than I am, but then why doesn't everyone that has been blessed with a Church that teaches God's Word in truth and purity also believe His Word?

Who are we, mere dust of the earth to set in judgement of Our Creator and have doubts of His teaching and what He has told us to do with our lives?

Isn't that nothing more that man's sinful pride that was so clearly made an example of in the OT and given to us as a warning so that we would not follow in their foot steps? Didn't God show us these things out of pure love and mercy so that we would believe Him and put our whole trust in Him?

If God's Word as written in the scriptures is true, and I have no doubts that every word is true, then why are we constantly rejecting His Word and saying out of our own puny wisdom that His Word doesn't apply for that part of lives anymore because these words were given to a particular church or city or group of people and in a setting much differant than our own? Do you think that we aren't just making dumb excuses for ourselves as to why we don't have to obey Our God and Lord? Do you think that God will accept these?

Shouldn't we rather be ashamed and humble ourselves before God and ask Him for wisdom and understanding?



Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Heb 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.



Please help me to understand why we can't trust God! :cry:


You raise some good questions and beyond the usual answer that we as saint and sinner want it both ways. We don't want to believe that God would punish people just for not having faith, but yet we understand that he means what he says. God has never broken a promise to his people and gives us every reason to trust him, but we as sinners don't trust ourselves so how are we going to trust that God is more just than we can ever be?

He gives us the faith, but like a muscle it must be exercised or it will atrophy and be useless

[IowaLutheran]

I am not boasting in myself though it may sound like it, because I know that my faith was made possible purely out of God's Grace, and I will also confess that many of you here are much better Bible scholars than I am, but then why doesn't everyone that has been blessed with a Church that teaches God's Word in truth and purity also believe His Word?

****

Please help me to understand why we can't trust God! :cry:


In a way, you answered your own question. Remember Luther's statement in the Small Catechism:

"I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him . . . . "

[revjpw]

If God's Word as written in the scriptures is true, and I have no doubts that every word is true, then why are we constantly rejecting His Word and saying out of our own puny wisdom that His Word doesn't apply for that part of lives anymore because these words were given to a particular church or city or group of people and in a setting much differant than our own? Do you think that we aren't just making dumb excuses for ourselves as to why we don't have to obey Our God and Lord? Do you think that God will accept these?

You hit the nail on the head here. It's a matter of control. We as humans want to think that we are in control of things, including what God means in His word and whether or not it applies today or not.

What some people refuse to understand is that in places where, for example, Paul speaks about women in the Church and the qualifications of the pastorate, he is not making up these things as he goes, or simply applying a new command only for a specific place or situation. These things are the commands of God (1 Corinthians 14:37, "...the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment.") that Paul is applying to these situations. Remember this is the inspired Word of God that Paul is writing. He is conveying God's command (not his own) and applying it.

[alabaster jar]

I think people look for LOOPHOLES; and churches/denominations sometimes mistakenly bend with the current trends rather than stick with the Word of God; they are seeking perhaps more people to sit in the pews and it's easier to line up the masses if you bend like a river to the ocean. "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell* (the way that leads to destruction) is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way." Matthew 7:13

The easy way is not necessarily the biblical way. How folks interpret the bible is where it all gets messy; I don't read the Greek of the NT, so I do rely on others. If I get on the wrong Path; I pray God will lead me back like the lost sheep I am.

[PurpleBunny]

I will confess that there was a time when I didn't understand how God accomplished some of the things in the Bible, but out of God's pure Grace He has blessed me with enough faith to take Him at His Word and to trust everything that He has written in the scritures.

I am not boasting in myself though it may sound like it, because I know that my faith was made possible purely out of God's Grace, and I will also confess that many of you here are much better Bible scholars than I am, but then why doesn't everyone that has been blessed with a Church that teaches God's Word in truth and purity also believe His Word?

Who are we, mere dust of the earth to set in judgement of Our Creator and have doubts of His teaching and what He has told us to do with our lives?

Isn't that nothing more that man's sinful pride that was so clearly made an example of in the OT and given to us as a warning so that we would not follow in their foot steps? Didn't God show us these things out of pure love and mercy so that we would believe Him and put our whole trust in Him?

If God's Word as written in the scriptures is true, and I have no doubts that every word is true, then why are we constantly rejecting His Word and saying out of our own puny wisdom that His Word doesn't apply for that part of lives anymore because these words were given to a particular church or city or group of people and in a setting much differant than our own? Do you think that we aren't just making dumb excuses for ourselves as to why we don't have to obey Our God and Lord? Do you think that God will accept these?

Shouldn't we rather be ashamed and humble ourselves before God and ask Him for wisdom and understanding?



Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

Heb 4:6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:

"Today, if you hear his voice,

do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.



Please help me to understand why we can't trust God! :cry:


"Did God REALLY say...?"

[Jim47]

[QUOTE=SLStrohkirch] God has never broken a promise to his people and gives us every reason to trust him, but we as sinners don't trust ourselves so how are we going to trust that God is more just than we can ever be?



That is a good point Scott. You know I figured out a long time ago that I would never completey understand all of the bible, but God doesn't require us to understand everything He has said, He just asks us to believe Him.

A good example:
Ge 12:1 The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. Ge 12:2 "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great,

and you will be a blessing. Ge 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."

Ge 12:4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.

This to me is one of the most wonderful examples of faith in the Bible. Abraham did not have a whole book of history that we know as the Bible, in fact he didn't have any of God's written Word, but yet He trusted God and what God told him.


He gives us the faith, but like a muscle it must be exercised or it will atrophy and be useless



Perhaps we are too weak in our faith to trust God? Maybe we know all too well just how sinful we are and we think by rejecting parts of His Word we can hide behind our own beliefs? How foolish! Do we think that God can not look into our hearts and see our deciet! :sigh:

[Jim47]

I think people look for LOOPHOLES; and churches/denominations sometimes mistakenly bend with the current trends rather than stick with the Word of God; they are seeking perhaps more people to sit in the pews and it's easier to line up the masses if you bend like a river to the ocean. "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell* (the way that leads to destruction) is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way." Matthew 7:13

The easy way is not necessarily the biblical way. How folks interpret the bible is where it all gets messy; I don't read the Greek of the NT, so I do rely on others. If I get on the wrong Path; I pray God will lead me back like the lost sheep I am.

Very good points, "but" poor excuses and I know you agree from what you have written here.

I understand what you are saying, and I don't think that you necessarily agree with this The easy way is not necessarily the biblical way because there is no easier way than to follow God, His paths are straight, and His burden is light, and quite frankly, I'm not smart enough to buck God!


As far as interpretating, if you read the whole Bible a few times, there are only a few grey areas in my eyes. I have asked my Pastor about Bible versions, there are good ones and there are bad ones. He told me one of the best is God's Word version, which I know Filo also likes a lot. I have read some from it but continue to use the NIV most of the time for several reasons. I'm too old to learn yet another version, as I still get verses confused between the KJV which I grew up with and the NIV which we changed to quite a few years ago. I do intend to read the whole Bible in God's Word as I think it would be good for me to campare it with the NIV. My Pastor also said there are only a very few verses in the NIV which weren't traslated quite right. The other reason I don't intend to switch to God's Word is because of their tight rules of copy rights.

[Phoebe]

Dosen't it all go back to the Garden of Eden when Satan said humans could be like God? Knowing good from evil?
We reject God every day of our lives. We do not accept, we can only reject.

Romans 9.19- 24

[alabaster jar]

I was thinking along the lines that if we struggle with something that the bible says is wrong, we need to repent and then change. And I don't know if I'd call that process easy. To my way of thinking it's just easier (or appears to be) if I want to do things my way and twist parts of the bible into my own shape. (by default, though, it becomes a very 'hard' and complex endeavor to really try to remix a fairly obvious command.) And as for churches, when they do the same thing, it can give us sinners a fast route to a life of continual 'rejection' as Phoebe has mentioned.

I like the muscle analogy of Faith. That our faith is like a functioning organ; we keep it moving or it will get stiff and become weak.

I have never heard of God's Word (translation), but I will check that out!

[Willy]

God didn't write the Bible. The Bible is a collection of writings written by human beings over many hundreds of years. To claim that the Bible is "Word of God" or "inspired" is not to say that God wrote it.

[Jim47]

God didn't write the Bible. The Bible is a collection of writings written by human beings over many hundreds of years. To claim that the Bible is "Word of God" or "inspired" is not to say that God wrote it.


Thats not what The Bible says


2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[revjpw]

God didn't write the Bible. The Bible is a collection of writings written by human beings over many hundreds of years. To claim that the Bible is "Word of God" or "inspired" is not to say that God wrote it.

:eek: :eek:

What do you think "inspiration" means???
You're a Christian yet you deny the Divine authorship of Scripture???
:doh:

[Willy]

yes

[Willy]

Thats not what The Bible says


2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
You do realize that the scripture being referred here is the Old Testament or portions of it. This is no way says that the Bible was written by God. To say that the Bible is inspired is to say that through the Biblical word the Spirit breathes new life into evey new generation. The Biblical word is living word. It continues to speak to every generation. As I preach on it week after week I experience that. When I'm finished studying it, reading it, preaching on it, I say "wow" this word is inspired. It changes me. It challenges me. It makes me new. "Inspiration" is now abou the nature of the Bible. It is about what happens when the community intersects with this word.

[mnphysicist]

Maybe I'm missing something here.... but to me, verse 21 is pretty explicit.

Did God physically write it, no, he used men... "For prophecy never has its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit"

Sure 2 Peter 1:21 was in reference to the Old Testament writings, but do you think that the the New Testament was really the result of man, and not God through the Holy Spirit? To me, that is impossible. To think that the writers of the Biblical texts were not under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is way beyond me.

I do agree, what you are saying that the Bible is the living word of God, and it does talk to each generation. The Holy Spirit makes it so, just as each man may be inspired upon hearing it.

However, each man's inspiration of the Word as he hears it, if the scriptures were to be of man's origin only, is a totally different concept from Holy Spirits guidance to those who wrote it, followed by those who were inspired from hearing it.

By taking such a stance.... then it is up to each man to pick and choose his theology based upon his generational pov. If something is hard to hear in a given generation, it may well not inspired by that generation, and as such will be lacking in truth and guidance to them. This is a most dangerous position to take, albeit a popular and convenient way to tailor theology and doctrine according to man's needs, not God's word.

Ron

[Jim47]

yes


I guess I'm confused. You claim to be a Christian but yet deny God's Word.

Can you explain?

Are you worshipping The Triune God, Creator of all and Jesus as Your Lord and Savior, or do you have another God?

My next question would be, what is your purpose in coming here for fellowship with people who do believe In God's Word? You are certainly welcome, but what reason do you have?

[Willy]

I guess I'm confused. You claim to be a Christian but yet deny God's Word.

Can you explain?

Are you worshipping The Triune God, Creator of all and Jesus as Your Lord and Savior, or do you have another God?

My next question would be, what is your purpose in coming here for fellowship with people who do believe In God's Word? You are certainly welcome, but what reason do you have?
My purpose is to indicate that not everyone thinks like you do. And we who don't remain faithful Christians. WE are not denying the "Word of God." The language that is chosen is so dismissive. This stuff matters to me because we live in a culture in which people who are throughly modern ( live with the insights of the scientific revolution) will abandon or not turn to the Christian faith because it is so out of touch with what they know the world to be like. I care about all of this because I care about the church's evangelism task. The faith is the all-consuming passion of my life. I want to invite others into it. A lot of the others will simply shuck the faith if I tell them that God wrote the Bible. (Santa Claus is real, too. The earth is flat. Dinosaurs never existed. Jonah was literally swallowed by a big fish.) I know this may be new to you. But trust me. There are scores of people out there who think this way. They probably aren't in Wisconsin or Missouri Synod churches, although there are some there but many don't feel free to express their views. They are met with the same kind of ideological anger that I am. If you were to go to any mainline seminary (including many Catholic seminaries) all of this stuff would simply be assumed. Unfortunately, many pastors don't have the nerve to let the lay people in on this thought. Reading Marcus Borg would be very helpful with all of this.

[ChiRho]

My purpose is to indicate that not everyone thinks like you do. And we who don't remain faithful Christians. WE are not denying the "Word of God." The language that is chosen is so dismissive. This stuff matters to me because we live in a culture in which people who are throughly modern ( live with the insights of the scientific revolution) will abandon or not turn to the Christian faith because it is so out of touch with what they know the world to be like. I care about all of this because I care about the church's evangelism task. The faith is the all-consuming passion of my life. I want to invite others into it. A lot of the others will simply shuck the faith if I tell them that God wrote the Bible. (Santa Claus is real, too. The earth is flat. Dinosaurs never existed. Jonah was literally swallowed by a big fish.) I know this may be new to you. But trust me. There are scores of people out there who think this way. They probably aren't in Wisconsin or Missouri Synod churches, although there are some there but many don't feel free to express their views. They are met with the same kind of ideological anger that I am. If you were to go to any mainline seminary (including many Catholic seminaries) all of this stuff would simply be assumed. Unfortunately, many pastors don't have the nerve to let the lay people in on this thought. Reading Marcus Borg would be very helpful with all of this.


Oh, slick Willy, a response isn't even necessary! You have made clear the army, for whom you seek to wage war against. And us, faithful Christians--despite how desperate things may currently appear--already know the outcome.


We win.


Pax

[SPALATIN]

Reading Marcus Borg would be very helpful with all of this.

Resistance is futile!;)

[Willy]

Oh, slick Willy, a response isn't even necessary! You have made clear the army, for whom you seek to wage war against. And us, faithful Christians--despite how desperate things may currently appear--already know the outcome.


We win.


Pax
I'm not in a war. And if I follow Jesus, I'll probably not care who wins.

[revjpw]

And if I follow Jesus, I'll probably not care who wins.

But you don't follow Jesus. You said it yourself:

And we who don't remain faithful Christians.

Enough said.

You seem to be willing to dismiss 2000 years of Christianity in order to make a handful of people feel good about themselves??:confused: :confused: (Where have I heard this before? :scratch: )

Of course people feel the way you say. They are sinful human beings who need a Savior, who need to hear the inspired Word of God that He has given to His Church. Please repent of your sin.

[ChiRho]

My purpose is to indicate that not everyone thinks like you do. And we who don't remain faithful Christians. WE are not denying the "Word of God." The language that is chosen is so dismissive. This stuff matters to me because we live in a culture in which people who are throughly modern ( live with the insights of the scientific revolution) will abandon or not turn to the Christian faith because it is so out of touch with what they know the world to be like. I care about all of this because I care about the church's evangelism task. The faith is the all-consuming passion of my life. I want to invite others into it. A lot of the others will simply shuck the faith if I tell them that God wrote the Bible. (Santa Claus is real, too. The earth is flat. Dinosaurs never existed. Jonah was literally swallowed by a big fish.) I know this may be new to you. But trust me. There are scores of people out there who think this way. They probably aren't in Wisconsin or Missouri Synod churches, although there are some there but many don't feel free to express their views. They are met with the same kind of ideological anger that I am. If you were to go to any mainline seminary (including many Catholic seminaries) all of this stuff would simply be assumed. Unfortunately, many pastors don't have the nerve to let the lay people in on this thought. Reading Marcus Borg would be very helpful with all of this.


Willy, your gone man. I have no doubt that you are not at war internally (regardless of how political you intended that statement to be). You bring shame to the Lutheran name. I hope and pray that your congregation departs from your instruction, that God may open their eyes to the devilish lies that you speak. How could anyone direct a Christian to this man, Martin J. Borg? Especially someone who calls himself a Pastor? Woe to you!

A sampling of Mr. Borg (Senior Minion in Satan's Army):


The entire interview is found here. (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/135/story_13587_1.html)

Why Be Christian?

Revisionist Jesus scholar Marcus Borg explains why "Christianity makes persuasive and compelling sense."

Interview by Deborah Caldwell

In renowned Jesus scholar Marcus Borg's latest book, The Heart of Christianity, he responds to an audience of readers who, over the years, have asked him about the essence of their faith. How, they ask, can Christianity be relevant in a time of ever-expanding historical and scientific knowledge? In a conversation with Deborah Caldwell, Borg answers that question, touching on the afterlife, living in a multi-cultural society, the meaning of salvation, and being born again.

You say that Christianity in North America and Europe is going through a paradigm change—that a new vision of how to be Christian is emerging. What is it and why is it happening?

Broadly speaking, there are two different visions of Christianity in North America today. The earlier vision is the product of the last few hundred years, especially the last 150 years. This earlier vision of Christianity is literalistic in its understanding of the Bible, absolutist in its understanding of the ethical teachings of the Bible, and exclusivist--meaning Christianity is the only way.

That’s the vision of Christianity that the majority of us grew up with, whether we are mainline Protestant, Catholic, or conservative Protestant. But that way of seeing Christianity has become unpersuasive to millions of people--who can’t be literalists or absolutists or exclusivists. But now there is an emerging vision, an emerging paradigm.

The conflict between these two paradigms can be seen in many different places. In the second half of the 19th Century and early in the 20th Century we saw conflict over evolution. Thirty years ago the conflict was over ordination of women in mainline denominations, and of course today we see the conflict about gays and lesbians in the church. For Protestants, the two visions have everything to do with biblical authority. The earlier vision sees the Bible as divine product with a divine guarantee to be true. The emerging vision sees the Bible as a human historical product, the product of two ancient communities [Judaism and Christianity]. It tells us what they thought, not what God thinks.

My book has almost an evangelistic purpose--to show that Christianity makes persuasive and compelling sense, that the intellectual stumbling blocks that many people experience with Christianity are unnecessary and artificial and largely the creation of the last few hundred years. I’m persuaded that Christianity, rightly understood, makes sense--and so do Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. And they make very much the same kind of sense. *...

Why do you say that if Christianity is unique in its claims, it is “suspect”--and that because it teaches ideas, expressed a different way, that are similar to other major religions, that is comforting?

I don’t want to deny the uniqueness of Christianity. I want to speak of the uniqueness of Christianity, as well as Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, and Hinduism. They are all unique in the sense that they are not exactly alike. But what I’m affirming is that beneath their differences is this common path of transformation. For me, seeing that all the major enduring religions know this path of transformation gives Christianity much more credibility than if it were to claim to know something that no other religion had ever known.

Yet that is almost exactly the opposite of what a lot of Christian leaders say.

In the mainline denominations, I’m not at all sure of that. The Roman Catholic church during Vatican II essentially declared there is saving truth in all the major world religions. I think the majority of Episcopalians, Methodists, and Presbyterians would say that.

Is Christianity one of the world’s great religions, or the only true religion? This is the difference between the old paradigm and the emerging paradigm.


'Nuff said. Martin Borg knows nothing of what he speaks. He is a devil and a liar and all who perpetuate or further his writings are not Christian. This stale evil is not new, but cyclical, as all heresies are. There is but one God and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Pax

* underline is mine

[Protoevangel]

Willy, your gone man. I have know doubt that you are not at war internally (regardless of how political you intended that statement to be). You bring shame to the Lutheran name. I hope and pray that your congregation departs from your instruction, that God may open their eyes to the devilish lies that you speak. How could anyone direct a Christian to this man, Martin J. Borg? Especially someone who calls himself a Pastor? Woe to you!

<snip>...devil's lies...</snip>

'Nuff said. Martin Borg knows nothing of what he speaks. He is a devil and a liar and all who perpetuate or further his writings are not Christian. This stale evil is not new, but cyclical, as all heresies are. There is but one God and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Pax

* underline is mineYou must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ChiRho again.

[SPALATIN]

ChiRho has my respect and admiration and if I could give him rep points at this time I would without a doubt. Liberalism is a plague and the only way to get rid of the plague is by fire. Mr. Borg has defined me as absolutist. Darn right and proud of it. My mission is to spread my absolutism to all those who will hear it and heed the message against the liberal plague that seeks to destroy faith in it's entirety.

We shall show him that Resistance is not futile and that the Borg can be defeated by defending the true faith that God has given us. This will destroy the collective.

(Sorry Star Trek talk gets the best of me sometimes. ;))

[Flipper]

I don't doubt that God wrote the Bible through regular people, and I don't doubt what the Bible says.

I do sometimes doubt what people tell me the words in the Bible mean. What gets me is when I might question someone's interpretation, they automatically assume that I'm questioning what the Bible says.

[Protoevangel]

I don't doubt that God wrote the Bible through regular people, and I don't doubt what the Bible says.

I do sometimes doubt what people tell me the words in the Bible mean. What gets me is when I might question someone's interpretation, they automatically assume that I'm questioning what the Bible says.This becomes an in-house discussion. Brothers and Sisters in Christ discussing proper interpretation. Sometimes people (myself included) gets a little over-invested in this type of discussion, but bottom line, it is , like I said, an in-house discussion. Marcus Borg, John Spong, and others of their ilk, on the other hand, are anti-Christs spreading the lies of their father. No comparison to you, and our discussions, my dear sister. :hug:

[Flipper]

This becomes an in-house discussion. Brothers and Sisters in Christ discussing proper interpretation. Sometimes people (myself included) gets a little over-invested in this type of discussion, but bottom line, it is , like I said, an in-house discussion. Marcus Borg, John Spong, and others of their ilk, on the other hand, are anti-Christs spreading the lies of their father. No comparison to you, and our discussions, my dear sister. :hug:

I didn't say you or anyone else was comparing me - I was just giving my opinion on the subject. You're cool. :D

I've had some interesting stuff along the lines of Marcus Borg sent to me in the past. I'll try to dig it up - some of it is laughable.

[DogMom]

WE are not denying the "Word of God."

But yes you are. For one thing, you've put it in quotes. That indicates that you don't really believe it's the REAL Word of God - you're attributing that phrase to someone else. For another, you've SAID you don't believe it's God's Word! Let's see...God didn't write it...He really had nothing to do with it...but it's somehow His Word? How does that work? Something is MY word only if *I* say it. If someone else is saying it, it's not MY word. Therefore, the ONLY WAY the Bible could be God's Word is if HE said it.
A lot of the others will simply shuck the faith if I tell them that God wrote the Bible.
Then you're not giving them true Christianity. I don't know what you're teaching, but if it doesn't involve "you know this IS true, because GOD said it", then it's not Christianity.
Heck, quite frankly I'd be a lot MORE inclined to accept something if GOD said it than if some random flake who shows up on my doorstep says it. How do you evangelize, anyway - "You can trust everything I say, because I've never lied to you yet"?

(Santa Claus is real, too. The earth is flat. Dinosaurs never existed. Jonah was literally swallowed by a big fish.)

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...which Bible are you reading? Mine says nothing about Santa Claus being real...OR about the earth being flat...OR about dinos' existence or non-existence.
As far as the Jonah thing, well, yeah. Of course he was. Why is this so difficult to believe? Why is it so difficult to believe that God PROVIDED a specially-created "living submarine" for Jonah to live in for 3 days? The Ninehvites obviously believed it happened!
Heck, Christ said it happened. And he oughta know! (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=12&verse=39&end_verse=41&version=31&context=context)
(Matthew 12:39-41)

I know this may be new to you. But trust me. There are scores of people out there who think this way. They probably aren't in Wisconsin or Missouri Synod

*snort*
Yeah. Because we teach our people to THINK, but also to BELIEVE that what God says is true. I can't answer for anyone else, but what I've seen come out of some other "churches" makes me wonder if they're even Christian.

you were to go to any mainline seminary
I'm not usually one to pick on peoples' word choices or anything, but this is really funny. How exactly does one mainline a SEMINARY?
I believe you meant "mainSTREAM", perhaps?
Sorry, that was just a really funny image.

[revjpw]

I do sometimes doubt what people tell me the words in the Bible mean. What gets me is when I might question someone's interpretation, they automatically assume that I'm questioning what the Bible says.

Scripture interprets Scripture. There is only one true way to read and understand God's Word, and He gives us the key IN His Word.
I am convinced that the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church understands this one true way. It is outlined in the Confessions of the Church.
One cannot stray too far from this and be anywhere near the truth. This is why we (LCMS, anyway) are not in fellowship with heterodox denominations.

[Flipper]

Scripture interprets Scripture.


That is one of those responses that irks me.

I'll understand something as pretty clear-cut, and someone else will tell me that I'm wrong because "scripture interprets scripture."

No one here (TCCL) has done that to me, and I know you didn't mean that comment to me in that way - but that's what I get from people coming from certain denominations that I will not mention out loud

The other big one, is that the Holy Spirit reveals the interpretation to them, therefore, no studying or background understanding is needed. Further, if I don't have the same interpretation, then I must not be worshipping the same God, and receiving the same Holy Spirit.

:mad:

[revjpw]

That is one of those responses that irks me.

Sorry, but it happens to be true.

The other big one, is that the Holy Spirit reveals the interpretation to them, therefore, no studying or background understanding is needed. Further, if I don't have the same interpretation, then I must not be worshipping the same God, and receiving the same Holy Spirit.

This irks me as well.
Hebrews 1:1-2 disproves that one, anyway.

[Flipper]

Sorry, but it happens to be true.





I agree that it is true, but it is a line that has been abused to the point of being a cliche.

[Willy]

Willy, your gone man. I have no doubt that you are not at war internally (regardless of how political you intended that statement to be). You bring shame to the Lutheran name. I hope and pray that your congregation departs from your instruction, that God may open their eyes to the devilish lies that you speak. How could anyone direct a Christian to this man, Martin J. Borg? Especially someone who calls himself a Pastor? Woe to you!

A sampling of Mr. Borg (Senior Minion in Satan's Army):


The entire interview is found here. (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/135/story_13587_1.html)

Why Be Christian?

Revisionist Jesus scholar Marcus Borg explains why "Christianity makes persuasive and compelling sense."

Interview by Deborah Caldwell

In renowned Jesus scholar Marcus Borg's latest book, The Heart of Christianity, he responds to an audience of readers who, over the years, have asked him about the essence of their faith. How, they ask, can Christianity be relevant in a time of ever-expanding historical and scientific knowledge? In a conversation with Deborah Caldwell, Borg answers that question, touching on the afterlife, living in a multi-cultural society, the meaning of salvation, and being born again.

You say that Christianity in North America and Europe is going through a paradigm change—that a new vision of how to be Christian is emerging. What is it and why is it happening?

Broadly speaking, there are two different visions of Christianity in North America today. The earlier vision is the product of the last few hundred years, especially the last 150 years. This earlier vision of Christianity is literalistic in its understanding of the Bible, absolutist in its understanding of the ethical teachings of the Bible, and exclusivist--meaning Christianity is the only way.

That’s the vision of Christianity that the majority of us grew up with, whether we are mainline Protestant, Catholic, or conservative Protestant. But that way of seeing Christianity has become unpersuasive to millions of people--who can’t be literalists or absolutists or exclusivists. But now there is an emerging vision, an emerging paradigm.

The conflict between these two paradigms can be seen in many different places. In the second half of the 19th Century and early in the 20th Century we saw conflict over evolution. Thirty years ago the conflict was over ordination of women in mainline denominations, and of course today we see the conflict about gays and lesbians in the church. For Protestants, the two visions have everything to do with biblical authority. The earlier vision sees the Bible as divine product with a divine guarantee to be true. The emerging vision sees the Bible as a human historical product, the product of two ancient communities [Judaism and Christianity]. It tells us what they thought, not what God thinks.

My book has almost an evangelistic purpose--to show that Christianity makes persuasive and compelling sense, that the intellectual stumbling blocks that many people experience with Christianity are unnecessary and artificial and largely the creation of the last few hundred years. I’m persuaded that Christianity, rightly understood, makes sense--and so do Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. And they make very much the same kind of sense. *...

Why do you say that if Christianity is unique in its claims, it is “suspect”--and that because it teaches ideas, expressed a different way, that are similar to other major religions, that is comforting?

I don’t want to deny the uniqueness of Christianity. I want to speak of the uniqueness of Christianity, as well as Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, and Hinduism. They are all unique in the sense that they are not exactly alike. But what I’m affirming is that beneath their differences is this common path of transformation. For me, seeing that all the major enduring religions know this path of transformation gives Christianity much more credibility than if it were to claim to know something that no other religion had ever known.

Yet that is almost exactly the opposite of what a lot of Christian leaders say.

In the mainline denominations, I’m not at all sure of that. The Roman Catholic church during Vatican II essentially declared there is saving truth in all the major world religions. I think the majority of Episcopalians, Methodists, and Presbyterians would say that.

Is Christianity one of the world’s great religions, or the only true religion? This is the difference between the old paradigm and the emerging paradigm.


'Nuff said. Martin Borg knows nothing of what he speaks. He is a devil and a liar and all who perpetuate or further his writings are not Christian. This stale evil is not new, but cyclical, as all heresies are. There is but one God and He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Pax

* underline is mine
Boy that is good stuff from Borg. I esp. like what he says about "mainline" denominations, since someone thinks that this is a strange word. I am just amazed at the ideological fervor in this forum. I'll remind folks that Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for humans, not humans for the Sabbath. Theology is the way humans talk about the experience of God. It is meant for humans, not the other way around. When it is the other way around it becomes a matter of idolatry. You can tell when idolatry is present because people work so hard to maintain their idols, sometimes to the point of sacrificing compassion, the very thing that characterized Jesus' ministry.

[Willy]

Scripture interprets Scripture. There is only one true way to read and understand God's Word, and He gives us the key IN His Word.
I am convinced that the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church understands this one true way. It is outlined in the Confessions of the Church.
One cannot stray too far from this and be anywhere near the truth. This is why we (LCMS, anyway) are not in fellowship with heterodox denominations.
I would not want to be in fellowship with "heterodox" denominations either--just might open my mind to differeent ways of thinking, just might call forth the gift of compassion from me. Wouldn't want that to happen. No way. Too scary.

[SPALATIN]

I would not want to be in fellowship with "heterodox" denominations either--just might open my mind to differeent ways of thinking, just might call forth the gift of compassion from me. Wouldn't want that to happen. No way. Too scary.

I remember a line from the TV movie "Jesus of Nazareth" Jesus had just turned over the money changers tables and was rebuking the Scribes and Pharisees and after he was done Judas questioned him.

Judas: Master, these people are the smartest minds in the San Hedrin. They wanted to understand your mission and have an open mind.

Jesus: Open your heart Judas not your mind. Open your ears and your heart.

Willy,

When you open your mind to others you allow heterodox thinking in and begin to think that they might be right. But if you open your heart to them you can speak the truth to them and maybe they will start listening to you.

[Willy]

Or maybe you have something to learn from them. Hard to believe, I know.

[SPALATIN]

Or maybe you have something to learn from them. Hard to believe, I know.

The only thing I can learn from you is what? your liberal in your theological stance? :scratch:

[Protoevangel]

Be careful Scott, we wouldn't want someone thinking you are disagreeing with Willy now. That's agaist the rules!

[SPALATIN]

Be careful Scott, we wouldn't want someone thinking you are disagreeing with Willy now. That's agaist the rules!

What the ? What was I thinking? :scratch: Rules here or tyrannical at best.

[ChiRho]

If no one is "wrong" then why is anyone being told they are wrong?

There rule doesnt work. By their rule, they are wrong to tell me that I am wrong about telling someone else they are wrong. Follow?

[ChiRho]

This is the flaw of authoritative subjectivity.

[Protoevangel]

No, ChiRho, you're wrong. ( I'm just begging for it now! :D )

All truth is relative except for the fact that all truth is relative. That is the only constant. Relatively speaking.

[ChiRho]

Oh, Dan you silly deconstructionist! Your wrong!

[Protoevangel]

Oooo, now were both going to be banned! How exciting!

[ChiRho]

Dude, unless they pull a mystical grandfather clause...I was already banned. I am banned by posting the Small Catechism.

Do they realize that they have banned Christ?

[Protoevangel]

Oh, Dan you silly deconstructionist! Your wrong!How dare you? That's a personal attack! You are trashing me and my synod! How dare you suggest that I might be wrong after I called you wrong? I'm going to go cry to the mods!!!

[ChiRho]

Just for those out there who love to misconstrue...I was not referring myself to Christ. By the new rule, they have forbidden Christ's membership to CF, as He often told people that they were wrong.

[Protoevangel]

Dude, unless they pull a mystical grandfather clause...I was already banned. I am banned by posting the Small Catechism.

Do they realize that they have banned Christ?:sigh: No quippy comeback for that one, I'm afraid.

[ChiRho]

Imagine if the churches of Galatia or Corinth would have met Paul with such hostility?

[Flipper]

Cornith had a huge massive orgy going on - I don't think they were particularly happy with him.