How Preterism Changes our Mindset

[Ozarkpreterist]

How Preterism Changes our Mindset

I would like to start a thread on a slightly different matter. Instead of preterists presenting proofs that the preterist view is correct, I would like us to ask “What is next?” If we embrace Preterism, how should it change our mindset and indeed our lives? And an even greater question, “How can covenant eschatology change the mindset of the church?”

I would like to present several areas for discussion, and all are welcome to add others. How can fulfilled eschatology change our minds concerning:

1. The presence of God

2. Satan

3. Kings and Priests (Could Preterism help restore the fact that we are both priests AND kings to the church? Could it change our mindset from those waiting for the reign of the Anti-Christ to one of those who reign upon the earth? And what does it mean to reign with Him? Don’t you dare tell me it means that we get whatever we want or the prosperity gospel. Try the Colossians 1:16-17 viewpoint.)

4. Striving and Rest (Could fulfilled eschatology take us from a “Pentecost mindset” or a “there but not yet” view concerning the kingdom to a “Feast of Tabernacles mindset” or a viewpoint of current triumph and rest? Could it change our mindset from obtaining to having the kingdom?)

5.Maturity (According to Paul in I Corinthians 3:1-4 the difference between being mature and immature in the Lord is the difference between being carnal and spiritual. Could Preterism help the church “grow up?”)

Have fun.

Ozark

[Ozarkpreterist]

One of the advantages to starting a new thread is that you get to have first crack at it. I would like to examine Preterism and the presence of God. I know I am probably going to catch it for some of the things I say, so it is probably good that we cannot through rocks over the internet.

In the churches I have attended in the past, we viewed God more as one who visits us rather than one who abides constantly with us. In other words, we viewed His presence as something that comes and goes or as a place we come into and go out of. We may have said otherwise, but our actions showed this is what we believed about God in our hearts.

I have seen people use many methods to “get the Lord to come down.” I have used such methods myself. For example, I have seen repentance movements that seem to imply that Christ doesn’t want to be associated with us in our current state. Therefore, we have to repent and confess our every sin. (I have actually heard people teach that if we forget to confess one, God will withdraw Himself!) If we do this well enough then Jesus will come and be with us for awhile. He is a Holy God and we must become holy if we are to be with Him. Never mind that true holiness is not a behavior but a Person who dwells in us and the fact that we are holy because we have Him!

I have seen movements where worship was the necessary ingredient to get into God’s presence. If we worship the Lord for long periods of time, He will “show up” and do wonderful things among us. After all, we are to “Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise.” Never mind the context of such a statement, and that using it as we do implies that under the New Covenant God presence is still a place we come into and go out of.

I have seen and been involved in movements where prayer was considered the key to God’s presence and favor. If we have very long hours of prayer (around the clock 24 hrs is especially good.) and have large numbers of people praying, then God will take notice and come down. I remember studying the Welsh Revival. Its boast was that as people prayed “heaven came down.” It was a great revival, but it quickly faded.

I am not saying the above works are bad or should not be done. I am saying there are better works to trust in to gain God’s presence. What if God’s people came to realize the works it took to get God not only to visit us but also to abide with us already happened? And they are not our own works but Christ’s finished works. Jesus said,

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25 through John 11:26 (NKJV)

Oh that the church would get over the carnal understanding that this has anything to do with the physical body. Death in God’s eyes has always been separation from Him. Nothing more, nothing less. Death was abolished at the cross, and the victory of the cross was fully realized at the Parousia (I Corinthians 15). This means separation from God has been abolished for all who will believe on Him. Far from God is a place we never go, and in His presence is a place we always are.

Where is God? An Old Testament Jew would have answered that question by pointing at the Tabernacle. This was the house of God. It was known to the Jews as the place where heaven touched earth. We know now that God has destroyed the earthly Tabernacle so that His new creation Tabernacle which is the church can become preeminent.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God… (Revelation 21:9-11 NKJV).

What was John beholding? Was it some literal cubic city floating in the air. No, it was in the angel’s own words “the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” This holy city is here today—the city that has the glory of God, and this holy city is us, his church. There is a new place where heaven touches earth. The Christian sees it every time he looks in the mirror.

Moreover, we, by God’s own doing, are in Christ seated with Him in the heavenly places (Eph 2:6). Therefore, because we are the new creation, God is where we are always. Because we are in Christ, we are where God is. Should we ever again wonder about the presence of God?

Ozark

[Back To The Future]

This is a great post!
Its late, so just for tonight I want to say I have been all those places you mention.

What really really saved me from myself was finally being able to know in my heart, that the kingdom of heaven was within me!
I can't tell you in enough words how that changed me.
I use to lay awake at night and tell God I was sorry for everything in my life. The list was endless.

When I came to the preterist belief it set me free. I mean Free.

I can't wait to see some of the answers to this post. I am still a baby in my belief but posts like this,just make me want to jump and scream and yell and say, thank you!!
I really want to learn how to apply my preterist beliefs to my life. :clap:
Nancy

[Didaskomenos]

Ozark,

Is this the place to ask why partial preterists and futurists cannot agree with your post? My church is teaching what you said almost word for word, but they're also studying Revelation in Sunday School from a futurist standpoint. (Truth is, they probably have never heard of preterism!)

[jenlu]

Ozark,

Great post...enjoyed it...also Didaskomenos, I think some churches say or teach some of what Ozark talked about...in fact, I guess I'm a partial preterist or post millenialist and I agree with 100% of what he says...I could be on my way to preterism fully, but I haven't gotten there yet...but the fact that God, through the works of Jesus Christ and the generation thereafter, has brought mankind to direct and fulltime access to His glorious Kingdom...the only reason I use access, is because many times we as humans don't fully partake in this reality, even though whether or not we do participate we are there if we are in Christ...

I really would like to continue this thread...
these are all my opinion right now...

Satan has no power anymore...
We are kings and priests NOW...
The kingdom was at Hand in Jesus' day...at least according to Him...that means we as Christians are in the Kingdom...

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Ozark,

Is this the place to ask why partial preterists and futurists cannot agree with your post? My church is teaching what you said almost word for word, but they're also studying Revelation in Sunday School from a futurist standpoint. (Truth is, they probably have never heard of preterism!)

Didaskomenos,

You make a very good observation. I do believe it is possible to hold all the above conclusions and still be a futurist. In fact, I know some futurists who would agree whole heartedly with everything I said. Not too long ago I had the opportunity to teach about how Jesus has abolished death both for the living and the righteous inhabitants of Sheol, defeated the Devil, and established His kingdom on the earth to a group of strangers. One gentleman in the back got so excited that I thought he was going to get up and do a dance. Afterwards, that same gentleman came up to me and started to talk about how wonderful Hal Lindsey is. I only smiled.

I think the only way a person can hold both beliefs is perhaps to compartmentalize his eschatology and his views on salvation and then never try to mix the two. If someone holds a completed view of salvation and the kingdom of God and then tries to mix those beliefs with futurism which relegates the kingdom of God to a future dispensation, he can end up a bit schizophrenic. Moreover, it leaves one in a quandary about the Devil. He is defeated yet not really according to the futurist view. If the Devil is crushed beneath the feet of the church, why are we so confident in him? Futurism leaves us with the fact that we are priests to God, but it seems to take away the fact that we are also kings (Rev. 1:4-6). These are only a few of the problems that arise. The futurist view leaves us with a somewhat anemic salvation.

Personally, over the years I came to conclude that our salvation is complete, and it is most glorious. Yet, when I combined this with completed eschatology the result was like dynamite.

Ozark

[Caedmon]

I just have to say this, and I'm sorry, but I still have absolutely no idea what Preterism is. Someone, please help me. I don't mean to be annoying, I just want to understand.

Here's an idea. Can someone give a list of very short phrases that identify the basic aspects of a Preterist's mindset, similar in manner to the Reformed TULIP acronym? This would really help. Thanks

[Back To The Future]

ozark,
You said in your post;"Far from God is a place we never go, and in his presence is a place we always are. Death in Gods eyes has always been seperation from him, abolished at the cross, victory of the cross was fully realized at the parousia."

I have been thinking about this all day. Brought tears to my eyes the simple truth of your statement. How I wish years ago in all my church days, I would have heard something like this. Maybe I can pass these words on.

Since becoming a preterist I am so weepy. The truth of just who I really am, and what has been already done for me and the world has melted my heart. My hope with my new found faith and belief is to go forward in love and not judgement. To sow hope and not gloom and doom, to speak the truth in kindness, and to rejoyce in my salvation.
Blessings
Nancy :hug:

[Ozarkpreterist]

Humblejoe,

As you probably know Preterism is one of the four major schools of thought concerning the interpretation of prophesy. The four majors are futurism, idealist, historistic, and preterist. The preterist viewpoint is on the opposite end of the eschatological spectrum from futurism. While futurism states that all prophesy concerning the end times is yet to be fulfilled, Preterism says it all has already been fulfilled including the book of Revelation. Preterists believe that the end times are not the end of the world but the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant. It concludes that Satan is crushed beneath the feet of the church, Death has been abolished for all who believe (Spiritual death or separation from God.), and yes, Jesus has returned and is now enthroned in the midst of His new Israel which is the church and now reigns as King of kings and Lord of lords over all the earth. It is the most joyous and victorious of the major eschatological viewpoints, and it is the least kind to Satan. Its other names such as Covenant Eschatology, fulfilled eschatology, or completed eschatology help us understand what it is all about.

Because it is so different than futurism, it is a shock to most people. I was on my third book on the subject before I embraced it, and I found it to be a life changing experience. Most are not as stubborn as me, but I wanted to be sure. When we study the time reference passages in the New Testament, Preterism is simply hard to deny. It becomes obvious all the apostles expected and were earnestly awaiting a first century return of the Lord. Jesus Himself said in many places that those who stood before Him would see His kingdom come and the Lord's judgment upon Old Covenant Israel. Plus, when we look at the time statements of the book of Revelation and realize that this book is apocalyptic literature similar to that of the Old Testament, it becomes clear that this book is not about the end of the world, and that its conclusions are largely spiritual realities not carnal.

If you really want to understand preterism, it will take some effort on your part. You probably won't grasp it in an evening. Yet, I believe it is well worth the effort. I can give you some resources if you want. This link is a good outline of the reasoning behind preterism. Hope this helps.

http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

Ozark

[parousia70]

The greatest thing preterism did for me was help me realize that I have a future, as a human being on planet earth. That my Children have a future to grow up, get married and have Children of their own, who will have a future to grow up, get married and have children of their own, who wil have a future to grow up, get married and have children of their own, ect,etc,etc, "into the ages, world without end, amen."

When I finally accepted the truth of past fulfillemnt, The possibilities and opportunities for making a real difference became ever-so-clear. When I realized the ship isn't sinking, and never will, I knew I had to start polishing the brass and re-arranging the deck chairs right away, for the sake of my children, and my childrens children, and their childrens children......

Preterism gave me a future, and subsequently opened my eyes to my responsibility to deliver that future to my descendants, instead how futurism was pushing me to abdicate my responsibility, withdraw and wait to be sucked into the sky any minute.

Thats all I have for now......

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Back To The Future
This is a great post!
Its late, so just for tonight I want to say I have been all those places you mention.

What really really saved me from myself was finally being able to know in my heart, that the kingdom of heaven was within me!
I can't tell you in enough words how that changed me.
I use to lay awake at night and tell God I was sorry for everything in my life. The list was endless.

When I came to the preterist belief it set me free. I mean Free.

I can't wait to see some of the answers to this post. I am still a baby in my belief but posts like this,just make me want to jump and scream and yell and say, thank you!!
I really want to learn how to apply my preterist beliefs to my life. :clap:
Nancy


As a minister and teacher of God I would like to say to you Nancy that you have a good open heart to hear what God has to say. Look for many good thing to come in your understanding of the Bible. God just loves it when his children have a open heart to hear what Scripture has to say.

[davo]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Here's an idea. Can someone give a list of very short phrases that identify the basic aspects of a Preterist's mindset, similar in manner to the Reformed TULIP acronym? This would really help.

Judging from the posts above -how about the idea of HOPE -renewed or refired hope:

He returned
On time
Perfecting salvation
Eternally

davo :)

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by davo
Judging from the posts above -how about the idea of HOPE -renewed or refired hope:

He returned
On time
Perfecting salvation
Eternally

davo :)

Ehhh, weeelllllll, lol... maybe... ;)

I think a big thing is that I've been taught that Jesus is coming again for so long, that it's difficult for me not to imagine Him returning in person at some point in the future. I mean, isn't that what Scripture teaches?

[davo]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I think a big thing is that I've been taught that Jesus is coming again for so long, that it's difficult for me not to imagine Him returning in person at some point in the future. I mean, isn't that what Scripture teaches?

Well that is the real issue -challenging long held views of what "we believe" the bible says -that's why many speak of getting a grasp on "covenant eschatology" as a major "paradigm shift."

The Greek text reflects strongly the "end-time" themes as relating to the end of the Old Covenant world of Judaism, while the New Covenant world of Christianity fulfills that to which the old pointed towards [Law being engulfed by Grace]. The overlap of this occurred in that 40 year generation [AD30-70].

So what am I saying? -Looking at the "end-of-the-world" scriptures as being the end of the Old Covenant , and seeing the "New Creation" scriptures as referencing to the promised New Covenant reflects more accurately the Greek text.

One example: Mt 24:3 "what will be the sign of your coming and [i]the end of the world."

Futurism has taught "the end of the world" to be the termination of the universe. In the Greek text "world" actually means "age." It was the end of the old covenant world [age] of Judaism, i.e., the Law.

davo

[Ozarkpreterist]

I once knew a brother in the Lord who said “While some people see a demon behind every tree, I see ten.” This same guy said that he once cast a devil out of his dishwasher, and it started working again. (I wonder if I should try that with Windows ME?) We can probably see how fulfilled eschatology can change this mindset.

While some preterists disagree on the status of the Devil towards the unbelieving, all agree that the Christian’s victory is utter and absolute. In fact, he cannot touch us. As our own brother Davo says “Salvation is not a battle but a banquet.”

I have Manifestation1*AD70’s permission to quote some marvelous posts he made on another board concerning the current status of Satan. See what you all think. By the way, Happy Birthday brother!

Manifestation wrote:

Here is my in put. Lest go back in the book of beginnings, after man sinned, where we will see the terms of the curse placed on Satan as stated by God. He speaks first to the serpent saying...you are cursed more than all cattle, and beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and "you shall eat dust all the days of your life." (Genes 3:14)NKJV Emphasis mine. The "dust that Satan is cursed to eat all the days of his life is not the sand of this material planet, for he is a spiritual being. Then the question is what other dust on this earth could a spiritual being be cursed to eat?

God formed "man of the dust" of the ground", Genesis 2:7,3:19 and it is this dust that the serpent is cursed to `eat' all the days of his life. But is there any scripture to support that idea? Let's now turn to the prophet Isaiah and look at an astounding passage of Scripture. In chapter sixty-five, beginning in verse seventeen, the prophet extols the glories of the new covenant, which is known as the heaven and earth. It is highly figurative language showing the blessing of the "new covenant" in contrast to God's Judgment (as seen in the preceding verses). It is in the last two verses that we find our scriptural support which reads.

`It shall come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, the lion shall eat straw like the ox, "and dust shall be the serpent's food." They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,' says the LORD. (Isaiah 65:24.25) These glorious statements that symbolize peace and joy in God's presence under the new covenant, also include a phrase that would seem unrelated. It says,....and dust shall be the serpent's food.

How can we reconcile this statement with the glories of the heavenly city? Notice it says they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,' says the LORD. These Scriptures testify that Satan, and the curse,pain,sorrow, and crying have on part of the new heaven and earth. They are forever removed! Isaiah tells us that Satan is still under the edict of the Genesis curse even after the consummated new heavens and new earth.

The only place left to him then is where there is "dust." Remember, God told the serpent he had to eat dust all the days of his life (existence). (Gen.3:140) Because Satan is a fallen angel (a spirit),he is immortal.

While it is true! Satan endures the torments of the lake of fire and brimstone which means he is out of the presence of God removed forever. And can never again have any influence on the inhabitants of the holy city which is a "burning, eternal torment to him. It is equally true, as foreseen by the prophet Isaiah, that dust shall be the serpent's food. We see Satan's influence on the unsaved in this material world, and we will continue to see this as long as we wear these flesh and blood bodies.

And on the other hand because of mans sin nature, he does not need any influence from Satan to kill his brother because unsaved man is wicked in his heart. The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. Psalms 37:32

Christ crushed Satan beneath the feet of His saints long ago (Romans 16:20). All we have only to walk in the Spirit on that victory ground.

[jenlu]

Very interesting Manifestation...

With this thought in mind, I guess you don't think that this world will ever be dominated by Christianity(church, and therefore Jesus Christ)...If this be the case of preterism...than it is true that a big paradigm shift would have to happen in my thoughts...I've always believed that this world would be restored to the original Edenic type place with all the blessings therein...

[Acts6:5]

I think a big thing is that I've been taught that Jesus is coming again for so long, that it's difficult for me not to imagine Him returning in person at some point in the future.

Yeah, Humblejoe, that what one of my biggest struggles with preterism. It's not easy critiquing our own beliefs.

I once knew a brother in the Lord who said “While some people see a demon behind every tree, I see ten.” This same guy said that he once cast a devil out of his dishwasher, and it started working again. (I wonder if I should try that with Windows ME?) We can probably see how fulfilled eschatology can change this mindset.

Ozark,

LOL!! I know exactly what you mean. I once had a charismatic co-worker tell me on the way home from work to start praying in tongues because he sensed the Devil was in my back seat, oppressing us. Makes you wonder why the Lord of Darkness himself felt that my Chevy Celebrity was the most important location in the world for his physical presence. Go figure.

I've always believed that this world would be restored to the original Edenic type place with all the blessings therein...

I hope that doesn't mean the blessing of "nakedness", too :o ? Actually, some may not consider that a blessing at all! ;)

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[parousia70]

I guess you don't think that this world will ever be dominated by Christianity(church, and therefore Jesus Christ)...

Christianity is dominating the world today.

Kingdoms come and go, Nations rise and fall, but the Church remains, increasing in power and authority forever, just as prophesied:

Isaiah 9:7a
"Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,"

Ephesians 3:21
"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Jesus Christ and the Church (His Body)are in total, sole authority over the Earth today. No principality, government, kingdom or nation has now, or ever will have, authority above it, or power that surpasses it.

[davo]

The refreshing truth of fulfilled prophecy is the reality that Christ defeated Satan, and stopped him period -he is no longer our foe, even in the 1st century the devil was going to the canvas -not without a fight, but he was no match for our Saviour who slam dunked the devil into the Lake of Fire.

The truth of this means we are no longer subject to demonic delusions or satanic seductions -ours is a life free of the Accuser, so how does one explain the troubles of life? The Bible says it is "the heart of man that is desperately wicked and evil ABOVE ALL ELSE." -Jer 17:9.

It was SIN not Satan that crouched at the door ready to ensnare Cain. It is SIN and NOT Satan that ensnares today -that's why Heb 12:1 says to "lay aside every weight and sin." Humanity's problem is sin -not Satan, it is DOUBT -not the Devil. And I for one believe in the Victory of God -no "if's" no "but's" lock-stock-and-two smoking barrels. So what saith the scripture [Rom 4:3]


*THE DEVILS DOWNFALL*


HIS DOOM

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."

2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude :6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;


HIS DEMISE

Matthew 8:19 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

Matthew 12:28-29 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Mark 1:24 saying, "Let us alone! What have we to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Did You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God!"

Mark 3:27 No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.


HIS DEFEAT

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


HIS DESTRUCTION

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

1John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

Revelation 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


THE BELIEVERS POSITION THEN

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Ephesians 4:27 nor give place to the devil.

1John 2:13 I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, because you have known the Father.


THE BELIEVERS POSITION SINCE THEN

1John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one cannot touch him.

Hebrews 2:5 For He has not put the world to come , of which we speak, in subjection to angels.


Just a thought on that last verse [without going right into it]. Before the new world/creation of the New Covenant some angels [good and bad] had a degree of "territorial" sway in the world eg; the princes of Persia and Greece -Dan 10. This now is no longer the case -there is NO LONGER ANY angelic [good or bad] "sway" [1Jn 5:19 = the old covenant world] in this world. All are free to respond to the Spirit and the Bride saying: "COME!" -[i]that is our great commission.

davo

[jenlu]

Parousia, I understand that Chirst is reigning in His Kingdom which we are partakers now, but what I mean(maybe it's my delusion in what I think it takes for Paradise Restored) the physical reality of the lamb laying with the lion and the length of days being much more...What I'm trying to say is...Adam was created not to die(fleshly, physically,mortally) is that right?...well if it is, I would think we would return to that as the nations become converted...back to original purposes...

[Caedmon]

Well davo, let me ask a question.

If Satan was bound at the beginning, and that eternally, then why do they keep asking for protection and keep getting assurances they are protected from him? Why mention Satan at all if he is not to be feared? Why does the Lord's Prayer say "deliver us from the evil one"? Why do they have to be delivered if Satan is already bound eternally?

[Acts6:5]

For clarification; the Lord's Prayer says "and deliver us from evil", not "deliver us from the evil one". Evil is not personified as the devil in the Lord's Prayer. Evil exists because of sin; it is not dependent on the devil. I assure you, the sin and evil I have committed in my lifetime has it's source in me and my own sinfulness, not the outside influences of Satan. There are billions of people throughout the world and there is only one Satan, who is not omnipresent by the way :). How many people could Satan possibly effect at one time?

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[Caedmon]

Ok, I understand that on the Lord's Prayer. It's just that the footnotes sometimes say "or evil one".

"The Bible is not a history of the Earth, but the history of redemption"

Does that mean that you don't believe in the Genesis creation story as some kind of literal thing with historical and scientific value? I don't see it as that either. I don't interpret it as literal history or science.

[Acts6:5]

Hey, humblejoe. Actually, I do believe that the Genesis creation story is literal. The point of my signature is that the bible is not meant to be a complex history of the earth, nor is it meant to describe the beginning and end of the entire universe, but it's primary purpose is to explain how the history of redemption has unfolded throughout time. The bible was not designed to explain scientific theories, etc, but it can be used to validate certain aspects of history and science.

When the Bible describes a Garden, Adam and Eve, and a Serpent, I do believe they literally existed. Hope that answers your question.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[Susan]

The Bible is both a history of the earth and THE history of redemption.
Preterism is a misled faith. Also anyone who denies the validity of the Genesis account is throwing out the entire Bible.
If you don't believe one part, you don't believe any of it.
A true believer must believe ALL of the Bible! ;)

[jenlu]

Why is preterism mislead...I am not one yet...but to me it is based in scripture...The Lord Jesus Christ is just as victorious in their view as yours, just that He did it in a different time as yours...

[Caedmon]

Oh, I FULLY believe in every word of Genesis. I just don't interpret Genesis 1-11 as literal.

And Susan, since your in such a literal interpretation mood today, do me a favor and interpret John 6:55 literally for me, please. ;)

[parousia70]

Originally posted by jenlu
...What I'm trying to say is...Adam was created not to die(fleshly, physically,mortally) is that right?...

Why don't we examine that?

What scriptures would you use to support that assertion?

[Susan]

How can one believe the Bible yet not take it literally?
That one's beyond me. . .
I'm not wanting to troll or anything, just ask an honest ?
:) :confused:
I always assumed both Genesis and Revelation were to be taken literally as much as is possible. That's why I believe the world is only 4000 to 6000 years old despite people thinking that that is laughable. ;)

[Acts6:5]

Good questions, Susan. No, you are not trolling. Genesis 1-3 can be understood as literally (although if Christians take certain aspects of the Garden and undstand if figuratively I don't think their salvation is on the line or anything).

But Revelation is a compelely different genre then Genesis; it's prophectic and apocolyptic in nature, while Genesis is not. That means that Revelation contains a great many symbols and ideas that are meant to be taken figuratively. Beasts with ten or seven heads, whores, vials, etc., each one is meant to be taken figuratively, although it is applied literally. What I mean is, there literally was a "Great Whore" in the 1st Century and it is mentioned in the book of Revelation, but the Whore was figuratively, or spiritually speaking of apostate Jerusalem, not an actual woman.

Something can be spiritual and literal at the same time (like the beasts, whore, etc.). There are a great many symbols in Revelation, but they all had a literal application and fulfillment.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[Susan]

hmmm. Interesting. . .:confused:

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Susan
How can one believe the Bible yet not take it literally?
That one's beyond me. . .



Define Literally?

Do you take Revelation 1:1 "Literally"?

I know you qualified your statement with "as much as possible".

Could you clarify what that means? How do you know what to take literal and what not to?

Thanks in Christ,
P70

[Susan]

Yes, I do believe Revelation 1:1 to be literal.
My qualifier means that obvious hyperbole (such as the verse that says to put out your eye if it makes you sin) or a bona fide metaphor (when Jesus says that He is the door, that does not mean that He is a literal door lol :D) should be interpreted as such.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Susan
Yes, I do believe Revelation 1:1 to be literal.

So you are a preterist?

[Susan]

NOOOOO! 1 million times NO NO NO!
:eek: :mad:
Why do you think so?
I am a pretribulational premillennialist considering a switch to posttribulationism if things get worse. . .:(

[Caedmon]

Well, to better explain, Genesis 1-11, esp. the creation stories, contains a lot of mythological content. Genesis 1-3 is a mythological cosmogony very similar to Babylonian sources. That, among other things, is why I consider it to be figurative.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Susan
NOOOOO! 1 million times NO NO NO!
:eek: :mad:
Why do you think so?


I'm sorry if I offended you, I just asumed that since you claimed to believe the events described in the book of Revelation were ordained to take place "shortly" after John wrote the book.

That would be the "literal" interpratation of Revalation 1:1 anyway.

Perhaps you don't take that literally after all?

[Susan]

Humblejoe said
"Well, to better explain, Genesis 1-11, esp. the creation stories, contains a lot of mythological content. Genesis 1-3 is a mythological cosmogony very similar to Babylonian sources. That, among other things, is why I consider it to be figurative."

Have you ever considered that those myths of Babylon were based upon a distorted view of the truth-that the Genesis account was accurate but simply distorted in the Babylonian pagan garbage?

[Caedmon]

Hehehe... The Assyrian/Babylonian myths were written centuries before the Hebrew origin stories took form.

And BTW, it may be pagan, but it most certainly is not garbage, unless you want to define most of the ancient world's literature, some masterpieces, as such.

[jenlu]

Parousia...

That's a good question...and I've never really thought about it...Let's see...one way I could look at it is God said "in the day you eat of the fruit therof you shall surely die"...but as you and I both know...that was a spiritual death...(I've also never thought about the salvation of Adam...)....but since there was no sin, I guess one could assume that death had not entered the world...(you know what they say about assuming)...Jesus came afterall to defeat death...but of course again...you and I both know that was spiritual death...so where do we go from here...(you may help if you like...)...This is my last ditch effort...let's assume you're right and Adam would have died physically anyway(that's without committing sin against God) at least I could say that one of the blessings of the Garden was very long human life...that was taken away from man at the fall and until Jesus decreased...Now that the nations of this world come to the Lord (after a long time)the blessing of long life (along with other Edenic blessings...) become restored...what ya think of my effort...

[BigEd]

OK, i have read some of the preterist posts and also check out some of the web sites you have posted..but i have a couple of questions..

If all has been fulfilled:

Why do we still have suffering in the world?

The 20th century was the bloodiest, century in history,how is this possible, if we are living in post-millenial age?

Re. 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The
lake of fire is the second death.
So if the book of revelation has been fufilled how come their still is death in the world?

these are question I have concerning the preterist viewpoint. I am a furturist, but i am not entirely satisfied with the furtist possition.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by BigEd


If all has been fulfilled:

Why do we still have suffering in the world?



Great question Ed!

Here's a quote from preteristcosmos.com I found that I believe does a great Job at answering it!:

**********************************
First, most Christians believe in eternal, or everlasting, punishment. Even if we propose that it is the Devil and "the beast and the false prophet" (Rev. 20:10) who are the only ones who suffer eternally, that would still add up to a cosmos wherein sin and suffering continue forever and ever. To have planet Earth free from sin and suffering while sin and suffering continue elsewhere for eternity (i.e., "the lake of fire") does not solve the philosophical problem of the existence of sin and suffering. Therefore the idea of a universe in which sin and suffering continue for eternity is not at all a uniquely preterist problem. Unless you are a Universalist or an annihilationist, it seems that your objection may have more to do with the locale of sin and suffering than with the mere existence of it.

We must know that the existence of sin in the universe in no way implies the victory of sin. Nor does the continued existence of sin in the universe at all imply a "stalemate" between righteousness and sin. If it did, then we would be forced to say that God has as of yet won zero decisive victories over sin, since sin still exists. The idea that the mere existence of sin in the universe implies the non-victory of righteousness in the universe is an existential philosophy that devalues all that has thus far been wrought by the cross of Christ.

It seems that some people will never be satisfied with anything less than a fleshly utopia that is characterized by absolute "behavioral errorlessness" throughout the entire universe (except for in hell). In contrast to this idea of how the universe should be, God says that He created "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" in order "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy."

Sin exists, yet God is victorious over sin every day: "Every morning I will destroy all the wicked of the Land, so as to cut off from the city of the Lord all those who do iniquity" (Ps. 101:8).

The world in which we live is not "the best of all possible worlds" for the wicked. But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).

*************************************

Does that give you anything to chew on?

[parousia70]

Originally posted by jenlu
...what ya think of my effort...

I'm impressed! :D

Here's why I question the assumption that Adam would never have physically died had he not eaten from the tree of knowledge.

1)Adam was a created being, and like all created beings, was subject to physical decay. Christ was the only human that was promised his flesh would not see decay.

2)Even before the fall, It was "access' to the tree of life that would enable Adam to live forever, that is why God kicked him out, to deny him access. Eternal life was not something that was inherant in his being.

3) The only tree that God forbade Adam from eating from was the tree of Knowledge. Every other tree in the garden, he was free to eat from....or not.

Nowhere in scripture can we find support for the idea that Adam wasn't free to choose not to access the tree of life, before the fall. I believe Adam could have excercised his free will to abstain from the tree of life, and that choice would not have been "against God" for the Bible is clear that the only choice Adam could have made that was "against God" was the choice to eat of the tree of Knowledge.

Christ did not come to restore that which was not lost in the fall. Physical death had no power to seperate Adam from God before the fall, but after the fall, physical death became a huge barrier, now that Christ has restored things to their condition before the fall, Physical death is once again merely Gods servant to bring us into a deeper level of Human existance, an existance that was intended from the foundation of the world.

Peace,
P70

[BigEd]

Originally posted by parousia70

....The world in which we live is not "the best of all possible worlds" for the wicked. But it is the best of all possible worlds, "to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose" (Rom. 8:28).[/b]

*************************************

Does that give you anything to chew on? [/B]

I don't know P70.
That sounds closer to polictical spin, then a real answer.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by BigEd


I don't know P70.
That sounds closer to polictical spin, then a real answer.

Well Ed,
Why don't you clarify your objection?

Judging by your previous post, You seem object to the idea of Evil, sin and suffering lasting forever.

Is is not true (as pointed out in my posted quote) that your objection has more to do with the "Location" of evil, sin and suffering, than with the everlasting existance of it?

Or are you Universallist or annihilationist?

[BigEd]

You ask a valid question P70,
but i feel it could be better discused in a new thread. so I am start a new thread (rather then sidetrack this any more) so we can continue this discussion.

[Ozarkpreterist]

When the book of Revelation was written (That is if you accept the pre-AD 70 date.), the church was in the midst of horrendous persecution. They had to contend with Jewish zealots, Caesar worship, and paganism. An unbelieving outsider might look at the tiny sect of Christianity and say that it did not have long to last. They were much more the underdog than we are today.

Yet, you read the new testament and there is surprisingly little complaint about how big the darkness was. Books on how bad things are out there are best sellers today. Sermons about what Satan is supposedly doing and about how terrible our times are abound. Yet, in the day of the early church we hear the bold statement:

John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Revelation 1:4 through Revelation 1:6 (NKJV)

The cry that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth came from their hearts. Moreover, they did not look at themselves as underdogs but as priests and kings. And their boast proved to be true. Rome fell, paganism just ain't what it used to be, and we all know the fate of those Jews that opposed Christ.

However, this message that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth has become somewhat muted in the modern pulpit. We present Jesus as Savior, and we do it fairly well. We see Him as a loving Savior who accepts us as we are. And this is good. The unconditional love of the cross is greater than we can fathom. However, Jesus is also the Lord over all the nations of the earth, and He rules them with a rod of iron. Opposing Him is a fearful thing.

Moreover, we are very good at presenting ourselves as priests—those who commune with God and intercede. We share in the Lord's priestly ministry. However, we are also to be a reflection of the fact that He is King.

All this to ask a question. Has postponement eschatology stolen the boast that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth from our heart? Has the idea that the kingdom is for a future dispensation stolen the fact that we are kings from us? What damage has the "why polish the brass on a sinking ship" mentality done to the church? Has it replaced the boast that Jesus is Lord with a boast in how big the darkness is and how bad things are getting? If it has, I want it back!

Secondly, what does it mean to be a king unto our God? I do not think it means that we can have whatever we want. Nor do I think that it means that others must become our servants.

I do believe it means that we are to be reflections of the fact that Jesus is in charge and is preeminent in all things. (Colossians 1:15-19). As I John 4:17 says, "...as He is so also are we in this world." He is not just a priest but the King. There is no greater authority on the earth than the church which shares in His authority.

I do believe that we are to be the instruments by which the heavenly reality of the kingdom of God becomes earthly experience. For it is our faith that overcomes the world (I john 5:4). Another way of looking at this might be to say our faith proves the fact that He has overcome all things. I would deeply appreciate any comments on this matter. Thanks

Ozark

[jenlu]

Parousia...

I've asked this in another thread I beleive...Let me start of by asking...do you believe anything in the Bible tells of how the future will be for this world...not like fortelling times and events, but maybe the general trend...I believe it may...what do you think...I believe the Bible describes a world in the flesh under the blessings of God(through submission of that flesh to God) because of the ushering in of the new covenant with Jesus Christ as the High Priest...Right now, I know those type of blessings can and will happen individually and possibly churchwide...but I'm talking worldwide...Now as it looks now, it doesn't seem possible, but I believe it to be, because I believe that is what the Bible teaches...do you believe I am thinking straightly or thinking passages that have to do with spiritual leaning(psalms:cant remember which yet(gone blank), but living to age 100 as a youngin: you know) and giving them physical meaning?...thanks...

[davo]

So true Ozark. It reminds me of the "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you..." and, "Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all" -seems like escapist theology hamstrings spiritual growth -why return to "weak and beggarly elements"? :scratch:

davo

[parousia70]

Originally posted by jenlu
Parousia...

I've asked this in another thread I beleive...Let me start of by asking...do you believe anything in the Bible tells of how the future will be for this world...not like fortelling times and events, but maybe the general trend...I believe it may...what do you think...

Jenlu,

I always fall back on Isaiah 9:7
"Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this."

Like you, even in the midst of the world around me today, I believe the government of Jesus Christ is destined to increase forever. when lamenting on how bad you believe the world is getting, think about what it must have been like in the dark ages...think about what it was like to be a peasant in the middle ages..think about what it must have been like to have lived during the plague...and even recently, think about what it was like to be a Jew in Germany in WW2, or think about what is was like ot have polio before Jonas Salk came along....

We can go on and on about how much better the earth is today, thanks to the ever spreading of Christianity. why, there is zero persecution of Christianity in the western hemisphere today, China and Islam are next, nations rise and fall, and because we are stuck in the middle of our own range of perception, we can easily get caught up (no pun intended) in thinking ours is the worst ever, but a quick survey of the History of Humanity, dispels that notion. The Church remains, ever triumphant, ups and downs to be sure, for in this world we have tribulation, but nothing can stop the Church from her destiny, to subdue the earth.

Futurism is in direct conflict with Isaiah 9:7, saying that there is a terminus to the increase of Jesus' government. That there is coming a point in history that the doors will be shut on salvation, that Christ's Kingdom in the "end" will contain only a finite number of the "saved", never again to "increase".

In the preterist doctorine, in contrast, there is no "use by" or "expiration" date to the Gospel, for it is everlasting.

Even in the New heavens and earth, the "final prophesied state" we see those inside the city calling out to those outside who thirst, to "come, drink freely of the water of Life" "the Gates of the city remain open forever to accept the wealth that the nations and kingdoms forever bring into her.

You may ask: "Toward what is history progressing if sin continues to exist and history is not going to end?"

The goal is none other than that every man of every nation, through the power of the Gospel, attain unto that for which mankind was created: To love God with all his heart, soul and mind, and his neighbor as himself (Matt. 22:37-39; Mk. 12:30-31; Lk. 10:27-28). We must not think that the continued existence of sin on earth invalidates the possibility or the perfection of the realization of that goal.

Preterists do not know future events, but we are fully confident in the fact that whatever the conquering Savior pleases to do, He does, on earth as in heaven (Ps. 135:6). And when we consider the divine eternality of the Church on earth and her progressive divine dominion, we know that her future, and hence the future of humanity, will be filled to overflowing with innumerable blessings which are even now utterly impossible for us to grasp. For what wonders will God work in and through His more-than-conquering Church after 10,000 years of ecclesiastical progress, or after 1,000,000 years of victory? Only God can know (Eccl. 3:11). What we do know is that in Christ Jesus our Creator and our Redeemer, the future of mankind on earth under His dominion will surely be "exceeding abundantly" and incomprehensibly wonderful....

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

P70

[jenlu]

Thanks Parousia,

I have long since determined(through proper perspective as you have stated) that Jesus' kingdom is growing, even through what seems to be trials and tribulations of our day...One could even make the argument that during the toughest of times(Looks like the end to futurists) there is the biggest growth of the kingdom...My friends always condemn me for this thought and my usual response is "It started with One"...

I must say...you've(through scrutiny of scripture as well) have almost convinced me...my biggest problem is overcoming previously held paradigm's...my thoughts were always that the world will fully and completely become part of the kingdom through the ever growing proccess...then there would be an end...but I guess it isn't ever growing if there's an end...makes sense...

Really appreciate the insight...

[Caedmon]

I'm not understanding this. How can preterism say that the Earth will never end? At some point in the future, the star that we call the Sun will run out of hydrogen to burn and start to die; it will begin to lose it's gravitational integrity, expand into a red giant, and engulf the orbits of the planets in our solar system. Eventually, our Earth will be burnt into a vapor, becoming a tiny cloud of insignificant space dust.

[Didaskomenos]

I've wondered that, too. My guess is, preterists believe in miracles. :)

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I'm not understanding this. How can preterism say that the Earth will never end? At some point in the future, the star that we call the Sun will run out of hydrogen to burn and start to die; it will begin to lose it's gravitational integrity, expand into a red giant, and engulf the orbits of the planets in our solar system. Eventually, our Earth will be burnt into a vapor, becoming a tiny cloud of insignificant space dust.

Hi humblejoe :wave:

Sadly many Bible students are unfamiliar with the apocalyptic, and figurative language of the Bible. So many people like to say "The Bible says what it means and means what it says". They seem to be saying there is no such thing as figurative or spiritual language. This is sad because a LOT of the Bible is symbolic language

If the writers of the Old Testament used such highly symbolic language to picture the actions of God, is it not likely that the writers of the New Testament, and Jesus in particular, would not use the same kind of imagery to describe events of historic proportions? Why should Jesus not have used the same Jewish symbolical language from the Old Testament to describe event at the destruction of Jerusalem, etc.?

The problem is people today are not used to dealing with such symbolical language like the sun being darkened and the stars falling, etc. without thinking literally. To the Jew this was not new language. When the rulers of the nation which God destroyed passed away it was said that the sun was darkened and the stars fell from the sky's, etc.

To help you understand how the Jews communicated in terms of symbolical language last first study (Genesis 37:9). This is the way language is used in the Old Testament. It was adopted for like use in the New Testament.
This kind of language in relation to Israel began in the Bible in (Genesis 37:9). When Joseph told his brothers his dream He said, "Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me."

His father understood the meaning of that dream and asked. "What is the dream that thou haste dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? (vs.10). To what was Joseph relating his dream - to the sun and the moon and the stars? No to his father and mother and brethren.

In studying apocalyptic language of the New Testament, most preterist have learned you most go back into the Old Testament-the sourse for much of the minology used in the New Testament. Joseph in a dream saw "the sun ad the moon and the eleven stars" abeying him (Genesis 37:9), and there we see the same kind of typology used, as we know this referred to the brothers of Joseph finally having to yield to Joseph when he became a rular in Egypt.. The heavenly elements represent people in OLD Testament labguage.

In order to understand the Bible (we must read the Bible in this Jewish mindset). Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the (Medes in 539BC)., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her: "Bohold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And i will punish the world for their evil (Isaiah 13:9-11).

This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1 This language is symboical and represented in celestial language somthing that would take place upon a people. Again, note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt: "And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heave, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the su with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. "All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-8) This applied to egypt, as mentioned in vss. 2, 12-16.

Most preterist have learned that in understanding many expressions in the New Testament eschatology, it is asolutely necessary to go back to the Old Testament and see how the same expressions were used there. In that way, one lets the Bible interpret itself. This same language was used in response to Israel, judgment of God (Matthew 24:29) This applied to Israel as mentioned in verse 34,35, 36, of Matthew 23.

The "heaven and earth" are simply the Jewish religious/political authorities and the land of Palestine and the people who lived there. They were the 'ungodly men' because they jejected and killed the Christ. And thus is was that heaven and earth that would removed forever.

The "Heavens and the Earth" Represent Israel.
In Isaiah 51:15-16 God said: "But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of host is his name. "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered there in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and ay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

God is not talking here about something that happened at creation's date 3,000 years before! He is talking about His people Israel. The heavens and the earth" represent Israel in this language. Some of us may have to go-over our thinging to uderstand the meaning of these passages. The Hebrew people understood this kind of language. It was their style. We need to see things in context, and the context of the Jewish writters.

In Haggai 2:6-7 (a Messianic prophecy) it said, "Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land: And I will shake all nations........This passage applies to the change of things which were brought about by the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new. The coming of Christ made possible this great change.

The change would involve the passing away of the old Juaistic system with all its ceremonies, rites, rituals, sacrifices, etc. As the writer of Hebrew said, as he "borrowed" words from Haggai 2:6: "The destruction of Jersualem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world.

God did destroy nations, but never again the whole world. And we preterist do not know of any prediction anywhere in the Bible that says He will destroy this entire universe. One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh; but the earth abideth for ever Ess. 1:4,

unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Aman Eph. 3:21.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by humblejoe
I'm not understanding this. How can preterism say that the Earth will never end?

How can Preterist say the the Earth will never end? Because the Bible says that it will never end.

Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the (earth which he has established for ever).

Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigns (the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved).

Psalms 119:89-90 For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven, Thy faithulness is unto all generations thou has established the (earth and it abideth).

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation come but (the earth abideth for ever).

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV

These Scriptures tell us, the world will always go on. As you see, there is a dilemma with the futurist view.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I've wondered that, too. My guess is, preterists believe in miracles. :)

You hit the nail right dead on the head. We believe in the miracles that can happen when one believes God's holy worlds. Try it out it works. ;)

[Caedmon]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
How can Preterist say the the Earth will never end? Because the Bible says that it will never end.

Psalms 78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the (earth which he has established for ever).

Psalms 96:10 Say among the heathen that the Lord reigns (the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved).

Psalms 119:89-90 For ever O Lord thy word is settled in heaven, Thy faithulness is unto all generations thou has established the (earth and it abideth).

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation come but (the earth abideth for ever).

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now the New Testament Ephesians 3:21 unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus (throughout all ages, world without end Amen). JKV

These Scriptures tell us, the world will always go on. As you see, there is a dilemma with the futurist view.

Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." - Psalms 96:10, NASB (emphasis mine)

This SAME Scripture was ALSO used to support the claim that the the Sun orbitted the Earth. Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed. But even if the Earth survives the red giant expansion(nearly impossible and astronomically ludicrous), it WILL lose the potential to support life(by losing it's heat source) when the Sun begins to experience heat death, shrinking into a white dwarf, then black dwarf.

If you would like an elementary explanation, this is a relatively good site for beginners: Sun Death (http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/sun/sundeath.shtml)

I'm starting a new thread on this specific topic. :)

[davo]

Originally posted by humblejoe

Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity." - Psalms 96:10, NASB (emphasis mine)

This SAME Scripture was ALSO used to support the claim that the the Sun orbitted the Earth. Space science disproved that interpretation of Scripture, and elementary stellar studies can tell you that one day the Earth will be destroyed.

Ok joe, you can explain away that scripture using someone elses faulty interpretation of that scripture -do you likewise explain away the rest?

As good and as important as science is, it [science] isn't the final arbitrator on truth -at least for "believers" -well, this one anyway. 100 years ago science held "100 laws of scientific fact" -they are all now debunked -why, because science has gained a better understanding of God's good creation. Science changes [it has to] -truth doesn't.

Christ upholds "all things" [the physical world included] by the word of His power, and "in Him all things hold together." [if you believe it -I do :) ]

davo

[Didaskomenos]

I'm bringing this over from humblejoe's astronomy thread to get your take on it.

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light the nations will walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. (Revelation 21:23-25)

Is this in the preterist view yet to come? The eventual culmination of the Kingdom of God brought about by God through the Church?

[Didaskomenos]

Anybody?

[jenlu]

Didakomenos,

I'm not sure, but I think preterist believe that is already been fulfilled and happening now...partial preterists and postmillenialists put that at the end of history...hopefully a preterist will respond...

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light the nations will walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. (Revelation 21:23-25)


Is this in the preterist view yet to come? The eventual culmination of the Kingdom of God brought about by God through the Church?

It's gates will never be shut, and Kings "bring their glory into it"

I don't see how it can be exegeted from this verse that this is anything other than a never ending process.

Kings bringing their glory into the city. nowhere does it say Kings will ever stop bringing their glory into it.

If, as futurism espouses, the city only contains a finite number of souls,ie; the saved of all the ages, how could Kings continue to bring their glory into it? The gates are never shut, and the spirit and the bride call out to all who thirst outside the city to "come!" enter freely and drink the water of Life.

As Jenlu guessed, I believe this describes the new covenant reality we live in today, a never ending process of the "increase of His government" (Is.9:7)

[Didaskomenos]

Do you have an explanation for the word "kings"? I mean, obviously it doesn't mean world leaders in any sense if it's supposed be happening currently.

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by davo


Ok joe, you can explain away that scripture using someone elses faulty interpretation of that scripture -do you likewise explain away the rest?

As good and as important as science is, it [science] isn't the final arbitrator on truth -at least for "believers" -well, this one anyway. 100 years ago science held "100 laws of scientific fact" -they are all now debunked -why, because science has gained a better understanding of God's good creation. Science changes [it has to] -truth doesn't.

Christ upholds "all things" [the physical world included] by the word of His power, and "in Him all things hold together." [if you believe it -I do :) ]

davo

Well said Davo. :clap: Our futurist brothers seem to also take the words of men about science over that which is clearly written in the Bible. Christ upholds all things.

[Didaskomenos]

Don't lose track of my question! Is it metaphorical? Fulfilled? Being fulfilled? The ideal the Church should reach for in administering the Kingdom of God?

[GTX]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70


Well said Davo. :clap: Our futurist brothers seem to also take the words of men about science over that which is clearly written in the Bible. Christ upholds all things.

So now you blame the futurists interpretation on science? I will take an automated response if your not available.

[Caedmon]

How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

[Didaskomenos]

Originally posted by GTX
I will take an automated response if your not available.

Yeah, that "automated response" thing gets funnier and funnier every time you say it.

What do you expect them to do, hem and haw and say, "Gee, I don't know..."? I mean, just because they know the answers and can make them sound intelligent, you think it's "automated"? What makes their responses any more automated than your own? They answer the questions, address your concerns, and you respond with your automated response, "Is that your automated response?" or the like. Ironic.

[Didaskomenos]

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

It looks like you're missing the point on purpose to steer the conversation into Calvinism. :D But since you asked, they're saying that the number is unlimited by the preterist interpretation of the Bible compared with the futurist view. It may in fact be limited by God. Here's what I mean.

What the futurists are saying is that all believers until the end of their "end times" are the only ones to be a part of the Kingdom. The preterists are saying that it is not limited thusly ("unlimited"), and that the time for salvation continues on and on past the futurists' cut-off date (namely, the institution of the Kingdom). In the eternal sense of Calvinism, all the additional souls included with the preterist interpretation might still be subject to God's election. In other words, this does not necessarily conflict with Calvinism. You can breathe now. :)

[davo]

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

G'day Joe, I'm not batting for predestination as such, yet it occurs to me -who says predestination only means a finite number to the elect? Is this a presupposition brought to the table?

davo

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
How do you reconcile an unlimited number of souls that could receive salvation with God's predestination of a finite number of Elect?

There is a difference between unlimited and infinite. No matter how many people get saved though out eternity, that number will always be finite. There will never be an infinite number of people saved. It is a mathematical impossibility. Think about it.

Ozark

[Didaskomenos]

Good ol' Ozark! Pretty good. :D

[Caedmon]

Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

[Didaskomenos]

Well, that's true, too! :D (this is fun!)

However, it shouldn't matter to a Calvinist whether God's number of elect has a cut-off point in history. The Bible doesn't say that God stops saving people at a certain point in history (according to the preterist view). Say he must predestine someone in order for them to be eligible for salvation - must you also say he has a certain finite number, or could his elect continue? It makes sense that if God was so hard-nosed as to elect just the right people, and since he said that he willed that no one perish, that his plan would consummate in a time in history in which all people are of the Elect.

[Didaskomenos]

Personally, Joe, I am kinda with you. It doesn't strike a chord with me (although a lot of preterism does) that the world just continues ad infinitum in the same (yet ever "better") state. For one thing, there would always be a divide between the dead souls and the living. I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed. How can this be if in 3000 years, everybody alive is a believer and then they die and go to heaven - and that continues for eternity. That seems exceptionally odd, and I personally must have more biblical substantiation, because I just can't extrapolate that from the Bible as I read it.

[davo]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

NO! Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

As Paul says in Eph 3:21 "world without end, Amen!" Our gospel has no "use-by-date" nor limited shelf life -it is eternal.

davo

[Didaskomenos]

The "world without end" verse seems to be a poetic benediction referring to a spiritual habitation of souls kosmos, but not necessarily the physical earth ge. Direct me to the other verses that seem to say that the earth will never end, please.

[davo]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
The "world without end" verse seems to be a poetic benediction referring to a spiritual habitation of souls kosmos, but not necessarily the physical earth ge. Direct me to the other verses that seem to say that the earth will never end, please.

Apart from the obvious as stated in Rev 14:6 above, try:

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

davo

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by humblejoe
Ok, then, but does preterism say that the opportunity for salvation ever comes to an end? I mean, is there a point after which no more souls are regenerated? Only by the existence of such a "cut-off point" could the number of saved souls be finite.

Well, not technically. Something that has a beginning and is incremental can never truly be infinite by the very definition of infinity. At every point in time no matter how far out, it will always be finite. It really does not have to have a cut off point. This is a paradox that can drive a person a little batty if he thinks about it too much. However, I think this line of reasoning is getting a little far out if you know what I mean.

Here is a thought. Ephesians 2:4-7 says:

God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that in the AGES to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

I have not done a word study on the word "ages" in this passage, but I have always wondered why it is plural. Could it be that there are ages ahead that are beyond our current understanding? Just a thought.

Ozark

[Caedmon]

Yes, but even a plural is finite. I can have a barrel of apples, and if I keep eating them, eventually they'll run out.

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
Personally, Joe, I am kinda with you. It doesn't strike a chord with me (although a lot of preterism does) that the world just continues ad infinitum in the same (yet ever "better") state. For one thing, there would always be a divide between the dead souls and the living. I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed. How can this be if in 3000 years, everybody alive is a believer and then they die and go to heaven - and that continues for eternity. That seems exceptionally odd, and I personally must have more biblical substantiation, because I just can't extrapolate that from the Bible as I read it.

Didask, great stuff! I am enjoying your input. very thought provoking and challenging! Thank you.

Since I do not have all the answers, I can only offer limited insight from my prerspective as an ex-futurist struggling to reconcile these issues you are grappling with today.

As for the ever expanding Kingdom, Isaiah 9:7 comes to mind.

As for a Divide between the living souls and the dead, can you be more specific? The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that nothing can seperate the Boody of Christ, not even physical death, so while there may appear from our temporal perspective to be a divide, my faith in the scriptures convinces me there is, in reality, no division at all.

Was Physical death brought on by the fall?
I have discussed this in many threads before and it always fascinates me. My current belief is that physical death itself was not a result of the fall, but that the fall turned physical death into the very real barrier between man and God, that it was before Christ came and "fixed" it.

Now, Physical death has been restored to its original purpose: To bring us into a deeper level of human existance. An existance ordained from the beginning of creation.

[Auntie]

Originally posted by parousia70

Was Physical death brought on by the fall?
I have discussed this in many threads before and it always fascinates me. My current belief is that physical death itself was not a result of the fall, but that the fall turned physical death into the very real barrier between man and God, that it was before Christ came and "fixed" it.



The Bible, and therefore GOD, teaches that "the wages of sin is death". We die because we sin. Adam and Eve were told they would die because of their sin, and we also die because we are sinners.

[Mandy]

Exactly Auntie. We sin because we are sinners and part of the curse is physical death.

[GTX]

P70, I like your Spongebob avatar, but your beliefs are a little misguided I believe.

[davo]

Originally posted by Didaskomenos
I doesn't seem that the plan would have gone full-circle until all believers are brought together. I think the Bible seems to make it pretty clear that the curse (including physical death) and its consequences will be completely removed.

This Didaskomenos is the problem with the futurist mindset -it interprets according to temporal realities, and consequently misses the covenantal picture replete through the scriptures. Salvation HAS come "full-circle" i.e., was complete in Christ's Parousia. The dividing wall came down and in Christ, and Believers whether Jew or Gentile were brought together. The "curse" that was turned back according to the scriptures was the curse of the Law. It was the Law that ministered Death [covenantal separation from God 2Cor 3:7-11], because when the Law [command] came sin revived and so in death reigned Rom 5:21, 7:9. Christ fulfilled its requirements so bringing covenantal life, conquering covenantal death -real death 2Tim 1:10. The language of restoration while using "earthly props" is not about temporal realities, but is covenantal and eternal.

That's why, having sung the victory song: ..."Death is swallowed up in victory." "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 1Cor 15:54-55.

And then followed on with: "The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law." 1Cor 15:56

When the Law was dealt with so then would sin be dealt with, then would death [covenantal separation] be abolished -they were dominos.

And Jesus said He came to fulfil the Law -and if He hasn't then we are still hopelessly lost in our sins. Jesus said "heaven and earth would remain [not pass away] until all the Law was completely fulfilled. "Heaven and Earth" are still here -so where does that leave us??? This is a problem when looked at through "through temporal glasses" -however when you take into account "covenant" then it makes sense. Heaven and Earth being a metaphor for Old Covenant Israel -typified by Jerusalem and her Temple.

The Old Creation order fell at the Parousia in AD70, being consumated in the New. Fulfilled redemption is the New Heavens and Earth [covenantally, and covenant IS the focus of scripture, not temporal utopic bliss]. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creation." This is consistant biblical language.

davo

[jenlu]

Didask...

That is one thing I am trying to understand as well...

Parousia...I really like that explanation...I've always thought that physical death was associated with the curse so it's hard to separate from that...but it is becoming clearer...I also always thought when God said you will surely die he meant spiritual death so I don't know where I go the notion that Adam was created not to die(physically)...

davo...also, very good understanding of the accomplishment of Jesus Christ...when you think about what He said he was doing and put it in a proper perspective, it begins to make sense and it's a beautiful thing...

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by Mandy
Exactly Auntie. We sin because we are sinners and part of the curse is physical death.

Mandy,

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 3:10 through Galatians 3:14 (NKJV)

If Jesus has become the curse for us and has redeemed us from the Law, why do people still die physically? It seems by your line of reasoning that physical death should be no more.

Ozark

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um


The Bible, and therefore GOD, teaches that "the wages of sin is death". We die because we sin. Adam and Eve were told they would die because of their sin, and we also die because we are sinners.

Not exactly.........

The Bible, and therefore preterism, teaches that the "sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law.(1 Cor. 15:56)
and "Sin is not imputed when there is no Law."(Rom. 9:8)

We Die physically because all created earthly beings (humans included) are subject to physical decay and a finite biologic lifespan. Besides, the Bible, and therefore Christianity, teaches tht we all have an "appointment" with physical death. (Heb 9:27)

Christ was the only one promised that His physical body would not see decay. the only one.

Sin has no power to condemn apart from the Law. The Law is what gave sin it's strength, and apart from the Law, sin is powerless to prevent anyone from salvation.

I noticed You conviently left out the part that not only did God tell A & E they would die for their sin, but they in fact would die on the very day they ate from the tree.

Did they? I believe they did, and I don't need 2 Peter 3:8 to justify it.

[Ozarkpreterist]

I wonder if I could enlist the help of the preterists on this board. I have had this idea rolling around in my head for awhile. I need some help discerning if I am seeing something here or if the altitude is just getting to me. Any insights or comments would be much appreciated. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

For some reason, we don’t hear very much about the feast of Tabernacles and how it is fulfilled in Christ. We certainly hear about Passover and how it is a magnificent type of Christ’s atonement. We also hear about Pentecost. However, there is virtual silence on this final and perhaps grandest of feasts. I have come to believe the reason is for this is the church’s misunderstanding of the time of the end. I have heard little teaching on any possible correlation between the Feast of Tabernacles and the events that occurred at the Parousia. Yet, I believe there may be a connection.

As we know the feast of Tabernacles was the last and most joyous of the three major feasts of Israel. (There were actually seven feasts, but three were major.) For years I had sought the Lord about the Feast of Tabernacles. I thought it had to have some sort of set and final fulfillment. Moreover, I thought it would have to have fulfillment after Passover and Pentecost. Passover, of course was fulfilled at the cross. Pentecost in Acts 2. Tabernacles was last chronologically, but when and how?

However, lately with some help from Alfred Edersheim’s book “The Temple Its Ministry and Services” I have begun to notice some possible correlations between the rituals of this feast and the events that happened at the Parousia.

The Feast of Tabernacles was about the Presence of God.

This feast was also called the Feast of Booths. In the Old Testament God commanded the people to build booths made of leafy branches to dwell in during the feast. While this looked back to the time when the Hebrew people lived in booths in the wilderness, it was also a type or foreshadow that was to be fulfilled in Christ.

According to David Chilton in his book “Days of Vengeance,” the word that is translated to booths in Leviticus 26 is the same word used to describe the covering of the presence of God in other places in the scriptures. Therefore I think we can deduce that these booths represented dwelling in the presence of God.

We see this type fulfilled in Revelation 21:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, £John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:1 through Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was a feast of great joy. We can see why. It meant that the presence of the Lord has become our dwelling place through the finished works of Christ.

The feast of Tabernacles was about God’s presence in us.

During the Feast of Tabernacles a priest would take water from the Pool of Siloam and some wine and pour them over the altar in the Tabernacle. Jesus while attending the great feast showed the meaning of this act and that He was the fulfillment of this ritual in John chapter seven. It could have been at the completion of this ritual that Jesus said the following:

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:37-38).’”

And do we not see this great truth consummated in Revelation:

Revelation 21:6 (NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

And

Revelation 22:1-2

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Note: No one thinks Jesus was talking about a literal building or fountain or city from which the living waters would flow in John 7. Why is it all of a sudden a literal city or fountain in the book of Revelation?)

Furthermore, when the priest poured out the wine and the water, the worshippers would wave their Lulavs towards the altar. (Lulavs were a sort of fan made from palm, myrtle, and willow branches.) This was looking forward to the day when the reign of the Messiah would come forth from the lineage of David. They did not wave the branches towards the sky (Sorry, futurists!) but towards the heart of the Tabernacle. In this we see the place from which the reign of the King comes forth. His reign comes as living waters pour forth from the lives of His beloved who are His living Tabernacle.

The feast of Tabernacles was about the reign of the Messiah

We have a Messianic Rabbi who attends a community prayer meeting I attend. He told me that the feast of Tabernacles has a lot to do with the Messianic kingdom and the rule of the Messiah. He, however, thinks this feast is yet to be fulfilled through the literal nation of Israel.

We see a glimmer of such understanding in the manner the Lord Jesus was greeted as He came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The people cut down palm branches and waved them before Him just as the people waved their Lulavs at the feast of Tabernacles. In this they were signifying that He was the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. He was Messiah, the One who was not only their Savior but King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He was the One from the lineage of David Who would rule over all. They were expecting the rule of the King then in their lifetime not 2000+ years later. Indeed, Jesus did come and smite His enemies and He brought the rule of His kingdom less than a generation later.

And from whence to we see His reign coming forth on the earth today? Is it a literal tabernacle in the literal city of Jerusalem with Jesus literally in bodily form sitting on a literal throne. Some people think these things are coming!

No, we see where His reign pours forth from:

Revelation 22:3-5
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

His reign pours forth not from Jesus in a literal body like He once walked the earth, but through His current body—the body of Christ (His living Tabernacle) concerning which John wrote: “As He is so are we in the world (I John 4:17).”

The Old Testament Holiest of Holies had no natural lighting. It was lit by the glory of God. Revelation 22:5 is a little “temple talk.” However, in the New Covenant this is spiritual. When Jesus said in John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” He did not plan on replacing street lamps. He also said the same thing concerning us in Matthew 5:14. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.”

It is interesting that the feast of Tabernacles was the only feast that focused not only on Israel but all the nations of the world. During this festival the priests offered 70 bullocks. The view presented in the Talmud is that these represented the nations of the earth. It is interesting that Revelation 22 speaks also of the healing of the nations.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:1 through Revelation 22:2 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was about Rest and completion

Moreover, the feast of Tabernacles symbolized rest and completion. The number seven which shows God’s perfection permeated the feast. It took place in the seventh month, lasted seven days, and its sacrifices were given in multiplies of seven. Everyday was like a Sabbath day during this feast. No work was allowed. However, This was not a solemn rest but a joyous time of rejoicing. If indeed Tabernacles has not been fulfilled, we are still without God’s promised rest. It is left for another dispensation.

In fact, I think it is quite possible that much of the church is stuck in a Pentecost mind set. As we know the time of Pentecost was a transitional period. The kingdom of God was “there but not yet.” I have heard cries from some preachers of “Pentecost at any cost!” What we need to realize is that Pentecost was not the final destination of the church. It was the rest and consummation of Tabernacles. In the time of Pentecost they were gaining victory. In Tabernacles we have it.

Furthermore, if the Parousia has not yet occurred, we are left with the fact that Jesus is Savior, but we are left without the fact that Jesus is Lord. (The reality that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth is gloriously illustrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.) Preterist thought seeks to change the mindset of the church to include the fact that Jesus is Lord here, now, and forever (A Tabernacles mindset? As our brother Davo likes to say, “Salvation is not a battle but a banquet.” Tabernacles definitely had such a feel to it.). Moreover, the church is not left in the position of waiting to gain the kingdom of God. Rather we are a people in full possession of God’s very present kingdom and the glory of His abiding presence.

Ozark

[davo]

One word Ozark BRILLIANT!

Also, Eze 37 is about the resurrection of Israel and the blessings that flowed from it. It was the restoration of His presence through the everlasting covenant in Christ:

Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore [Rev 21:3]. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations [Zech 2:10-11, Eze 47:22] also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.

And those healing waters that quench thirsts eternally and bring continual healing are also those found in Eze 47.

davo

[parousia70]

I agree! Great stuff Ozark!
I especially like the "Living Waters" references.

"In that day living waters shall flow from Jerusalem"

It never ceases to amaze me how someone can agree that Living waters are flowing right now, available to all who thirst, yet in the same breath say "that day" is yet future.

It's like they think The Living waters we have available to us today are only a "type" of the real living waters we are yet to receive.

To me, that's the same as saying, Jesus blood that now saves us is only a "type" of some future greater redemption from sin we are yet to receive.

I find them equally untennable.

[davo]

Yes, and the flow of blood and water that flowed from our saviour's side has meant 'LIFE' ever since. "It Is Finished!"

davo

[Brian45]

Parousia 70 . You wouldn't be saying those things if you lived in Etheopia and were starving to death , or if you were eating out and some idiot blows himself up and takes out your family . You only speak like that because you live in wealth and comfort and have need of nothing . Oh how wonderfull life is , if you happen to be me . Try wearing another mans shoes . This might be Gods kingdom to you , but it's not for many others .

[Brian45]

Parousia 70 . I am refering to your statement on page 1

[Manifestation1*AD70]

Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
I wonder if I could enlist the help of the preterists on this board. I have had this idea rolling around in my head for awhile. I need some help discerning if I am seeing something here or if the altitude is just getting to me. Any insights or comments would be much appreciated. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

For some reason, we don’t hear very much about the feast of Tabernacles and how it is fulfilled in Christ. We certainly hear about Passover and how it is a magnificent type of Christ’s atonement. We also hear about Pentecost. However, there is virtual silence on this final and perhaps grandest of feasts. I have come to believe the reason is for this is the church’s misunderstanding of the time of the end. I have heard little teaching on any possible correlation between the Feast of Tabernacles and the events that occurred at the Parousia. Yet, I believe there may be a connection.

As we know the feast of Tabernacles was the last and most joyous of the three major feasts of Israel. (There were actually seven feasts, but three were major.) For years I had sought the Lord about the Feast of Tabernacles. I thought it had to have some sort of set and final fulfillment. Moreover, I thought it would have to have fulfillment after Passover and Pentecost. Passover, of course was fulfilled at the cross. Pentecost in Acts 2. Tabernacles was last chronologically, but when and how?

However, lately with some help from Alfred Edersheim’s book “The Temple Its Ministry and Services” I have begun to notice some possible correlations between the rituals of this feast and the events that happened at the Parousia.

The Feast of Tabernacles was about the Presence of God.

This feast was also called the Feast of Booths. In the Old Testament God commanded the people to build booths made of leafy branches to dwell in during the feast. While this looked back to the time when the Hebrew people lived in booths in the wilderness, it was also a type or foreshadow that was to be fulfilled in Christ.

According to David Chilton in his book “Days of Vengeance,” the word that is translated to booths in Leviticus 26 is the same word used to describe the covering of the presence of God in other places in the scriptures. Therefore I think we can deduce that these booths represented dwelling in the presence of God.

We see this type fulfilled in Revelation 21:

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, £John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. Revelation 21:1 through Revelation 21:3 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was a feast of great joy. We can see why. It meant that the presence of the Lord has become our dwelling place through the finished works of Christ.

The feast of Tabernacles was about God’s presence in us.

During the Feast of Tabernacles a priest would take water from the Pool of Siloam and some wine and pour them over the altar in the Tabernacle. Jesus while attending the great feast showed the meaning of this act and that He was the fulfillment of this ritual in John chapter seven. It could have been at the completion of this ritual that Jesus said the following:

“Now on the last day, the great day of the feast [of Tabernacles], Jesus stood and cried out, saying, ‘If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water. (John 7:37-38).’”

And do we not see this great truth consummated in Revelation:

Revelation 21:6 (NKJV)
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

And

Revelation 22:1-2

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Note: No one thinks Jesus was talking about a literal building or fountain or city from which the living waters would flow in John 7. Why is it all of a sudden a literal city or fountain in the book of Revelation?)

Furthermore, when the priest poured out the wine and the water, the worshippers would wave their Lulavs towards the altar. (Lulavs were a sort of fan made from palm, myrtle, and willow branches.) This was looking forward to the day when the reign of the Messiah would come forth from the lineage of David. They did not wave the branches towards the sky (Sorry, futurists!) but towards the heart of the Tabernacle. In this we see the place from which the reign of the King comes forth. His reign comes as living waters pour forth from the lives of His beloved who are His living Tabernacle.

The feast of Tabernacles was about the reign of the Messiah

We have a Messianic Rabbi who attends a community prayer meeting I attend. He told me that the feast of Tabernacles has a lot to do with the Messianic kingdom and the rule of the Messiah. He, however, thinks this feast is yet to be fulfilled through the literal nation of Israel.

We see a glimmer of such understanding in the manner the Lord Jesus was greeted as He came to Jerusalem riding on a donkey. The people cut down palm branches and waved them before Him just as the people waved their Lulavs at the feast of Tabernacles. In this they were signifying that He was the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles. He was Messiah, the One who was not only their Savior but King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He was the One from the lineage of David Who would rule over all. They were expecting the rule of the King then in their lifetime not 2000+ years later. Indeed, Jesus did come and smite His enemies and He brought the rule of His kingdom less than a generation later.

And from whence to we see His reign coming forth on the earth today? Is it a literal tabernacle in the literal city of Jerusalem with Jesus literally in bodily form sitting on a literal throne. Some people think these things are coming!

No, we see where His reign pours forth from:

Revelation 22:3-5
And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

His reign pours forth not from Jesus in a literal body like He once walked the earth, but through His current body—the body of Christ (His living Tabernacle) concerning which John wrote: “As He is so are we in the world (I John 4:17).”

The Old Testament Holiest of Holies had no natural lighting. It was lit by the glory of God. Revelation 22:5 is a little “temple talk.” However, in the New Covenant this is spiritual. When Jesus said in John 8:12 “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life,” He did not plan on replacing street lamps. He also said the same thing concerning us in Matthew 5:14. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.”

It is interesting that the feast of Tabernacles was the only feast that focused not only on Israel but all the nations of the world. During this festival the priests offered 70 bullocks. The view presented in the Talmud is that these represented the nations of the earth. It is interesting that Revelation 22 speaks also of the healing of the nations.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:1 through Revelation 22:2 (NKJV)

The Feast of Tabernacles was about Rest and completion

Moreover, the feast of Tabernacles symbolized rest and completion. The number seven which shows God’s perfection permeated the feast. It took place in the seventh month, lasted seven days, and its sacrifices were given in multiplies of seven. Everyday was like a Sabbath day during this feast. No work was allowed. However, This was not a solemn rest but a joyous time of rejoicing. If indeed Tabernacles has not been fulfilled, we are still without God’s promised rest. It is left for another dispensation.

In fact, I think it is quite possible that much of the church is stuck in a Pentecost mind set. As we know the time of Pentecost was a transitional period. The kingdom of God was “there but not yet.” I have heard cries from some preachers of “Pentecost at any cost!” What we need to realize is that Pentecost was not the final destination of the church. It was the rest and consummation of Tabernacles. In the time of Pentecost they were gaining victory. In Tabernacles we have it.

Furthermore, if the Parousia has not yet occurred, we are left with the fact that Jesus is Savior, but we are left without the fact that Jesus is Lord. (The reality that Jesus is Lord over all the nations of the earth is gloriously illustrated at the Feast of Tabernacles.) Preterist thought seeks to change the mindset of the church to include the fact that Jesus is Lord here