Private Confession/Absolution???

[Qoheleth]

Does your Parish retain the Sacrament of Private Absolution??

If not, do you know why??


1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches,
(AC Art. XI)

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )

2] For we also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which, by divine authority, the power of the keys pronounces upon individuals. (Apology Art. VI)

1] Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys is also an aid and consolation against sin and a bad conscience, ordained by Christ [Himself] in the Gospel, Confession or Absolution ought by no means to be abolished in the Church, especially on account of [tender and] timid consciences and on account of the untrained [and capricious] young people, in order that they may be examined, and instructed in the Christian doctrine. (SA Art. VIII)


Q

[RedneckAnglican]

my pastor would probably do it if I asked him to...which I plan on doing before I do the whole "renewing of Baptism Vows" on the 22nd...

[guitarplayer_101]

I know that my pastor would do it if someone asked him, but it's not stessed nor is it a requirement.

B.J.:wave:

[KagomeShuko]

Thought w/o a pastor right now, every pastor we've had made sure to tell us that we DO have private confession/absolution as well as the public and together every Sunday.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Music4Hym777]

Mine does it after services or you can make an appointment! He will do whatever he can to help guide his flock.

[theologia crucis]

It's available at my church.

[ByzantineDixie]

I think there is a big difference between a pastor who "will do it" and a pastor who actively instructs his congregation to make use of this sacrament. All pastors will offer private confession / absolution if asked...but if not instructed...the sheep do not know to ask the shepherd.

In June I will celebrate my 15th year as a Lutheran (4 different congregations). Do you know the first time I was encouraged to seek private confession / absolution? Last spring by my Concordia Studies professor--he told the class it was a good thing to do every Lent.

I'll tell you something funny. I was at a woman's bible study one evening and the speaker (on tape and not Lutheran) was going on and on about what we women need to do about the guilt we carry from our past mistakes. We can do this, or do that..we do...we do...we do. Blech! :sick: I finally said all we really need to do to deal with this is go to confession and receive what Christ gives to us...absolution. Christ gives us everything we need to deal with this through His Church. I don't understand why we opt to eject a sacrament and introduce 21st century pop psychology in its place...but sadly its been my experience that Confession / Absolution is woefully neglected in the LCMS.

Rose

[theologia crucis]

I don't agree, Rose, confession and absolution is not neglected in the LCMS. The corporate version in the divine service works. Don't ge me wrong, private confession and absolution is a wonderful thing.

But, the corporate confession and absolution of sins in the divine service works its wonders as well. It's God's Holy Word working in it.

[ByzantineDixie]

I don't agree, Rose, confession and absolution is not neglected in the LCMS. The corporate version in the divine service works. Don't ge me wrong, private confession and absolution is a wonderful thing.

But, the corporate confession and absolution of sins in the divine service works its wonders as well. It's God's Holy Word working in it.

Sorry, Theo, we will disagree on this. General Confession and Private Confession / Absolution are are not the same thing and may not necessarily offer the same "perceived" benefits. Private Absolution is personal...you hear those sins you admitted to aloud are forgiven.

Here is a good article on the subject. (http://users.aol.com/SemperRef/private.html)

Rose

[theologia crucis]

Sorry, Theo, we will disagree on this. General Confession and Private Confession / Absolution are are not the same thing and may not necessarily offer the same "perceived" benefits. Private Absolution is personal...you hear those sins you admitted to aloud are forgiven.

Here is a good article on the subject. (http://users.aol.com/SemperRef/private.html)

Rose

Do they not both offer the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake to the repentant sinner?

Is not the pastor speaking directly to me tell me aloud that my sins have been forgiven for Christ's sake?

What is important is to trust that Christ alone gives and confers the forgiveness of sins. Absolution, whether through the Word or Sacrament, public or private all inculcate this very fact!!!

[ByzantineDixie]

Do they not both offer the forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake to the repentant sinner?

Is not the pastor speaking directly to me tell me aloud that my sins have been forgiven for Christ's sake?

What is important is to trust that Christ alone gives and confers the forgiveness of sins. Absolution, whether through the Word or Sacrament, public or private all inculcate this very fact!!!

I cannot argue that both offer the forgiveness of sins--clearly they both do. BUT private confession offers a special comfort.

Here is what Walther says on this very consideration you offer:

You see from this, my friends, that private absolution has a very spe­cial comfort for us sinners. It is true that private absolution is not the only means whereby God announces forgiveness. God already does this by the general preaching of the Gospel, by Holy Baptism, by the feeding and giving us to drink of the body and blood of his Son in Holy Communion; it is true that whoever in faith firmly relies on these three evidences of God’s grace toward all repentant sinners has forgiveness of sins. He can that way be certain of it. But which Christian does not know from experience that the very ones who consider God’s Word as true, yes, do not doubt in the least that God wishes to be gracious to all sinners if they believe, that they very often doubt whether they dare also comfort themselves with the general promise of grace?

Which true Christian has not often experienced the thought arising in his heart, when he reads that those great sinners, David, Manasseh, Peter, and others, received forgiveness: “Yes, if I were a David, a Peter, if my repentance were also as deep theirs, then I dare say I would also believe”? Which true Christian has not thought, when he read or heard that God wants to show mercy to all, that he loves the whole world and sent his Son: Yes, I dare say God wants to save me, but have I not by my sins shut myself out from his universal grace? Which true Christian has not experienced that he was moved to tears, when the riches of divine mercy was described to him, the friendliness of Christ, his shepherd’s faithfulness toward the lost sheep, his ardent longing for the salva­tion of even the greatest sinner: Oh that I could believe, that God has such ardent longing for also my salvation!? Does not the thought and wish often arise in even the most experienced Christian: Oh that Christ himself would come to me and say especially to me, as to the man sick of the palsy: “Do not doubt. Thy sins be forgiven thee!”?

Is it not a great comfort, therefore, that Christ said to the apostles and consequently to his whole Church: “Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them”? and, “Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”? If a Christian, relying upon that word, re­ceives private absolution, would he not be lifted above all doubts? Must he not say that if forgiveness is announced to him in Christ’s name, it is just as if Christ himself came down from heaven and said it to him with his own mouth? Must he not call Christ himself a liar, if he still does not want to believe that his sins are also forgiven? What greater comfort can there be than when someone says to us: “Your sins are forgiven you, since Christ has declared that this is valid also in heaven”?

The entire sermon can be found here (http://www.geocities.com/resourcesforlutherans/walther-T19-G.htm).


Theo...it is a fact that private confession and absolution is not predominant in the LCMS. The decline in it's use has been said to even have influenced Pieper's discussion of absolution in his Christian Dogmatics.

Rose

[Qoheleth]

Don't ge me wrong, private confession and absolution is a wonderful thing.

Indeed, it is a Sacrament ordained by Christ and should in no way be neglected.

Is anyone prepared to say that Private Absolution is not a Sacrament?

Is this just another area of Lutheranism that can be relegated to pious opinion?


Q

[Zoomer]

Our church will do it one request but it is not something offered normally.

[revjpw]

...but sadly its been my experience that Confession / Absolution is woefully neglected in the LCMS.

This has been the case, however, there has been a push of late in the seminaries to encourage the use of individual confession and absolution with the parishes.

[Qoheleth]

This has been the case, however, there has been a push of late in the seminaries to encourage the use of individual confession and absolution with the parishes.

Odd if not sad that there needs to be a "push" to "encourage" the use of a Sacrament.

Q

[Phoebe]

Private confession is available in my church.

[AngelusSax]

We have not had this for a while, but with our new "whacked out preacher" (our pastor's own description of himself, heheh), we're going to be going back to it I think. He's going to begin offering it after we do some Wednesday evening services during Pentecost, which will focus on the Seven Deadly Sins.

Many people around my parts view it as "too Catholic" (my mom for one), but since it's in the LBW, I don't see how it is. I think it's just an excuse people make so they don't have to confess their individual sins aloud to another human being as well as God. I plan to partake of the private confession/absolution when it starts up.

[VeryTiredGirl]

Indeed, it is a Sacrament ordained by Christ and should in no way be neglected.

Is anyone prepared to say that Private Absolution is not a Sacrament?

Is this just another area of Lutheranism that can be relegated to pious opinion?


Q

There is debate as to whether or not Confession and Absolution is a sacrament. My understanding is that, to be considered a sacrament, three criteria must be made:

It must be instituted by Christ
It offers Grace/forgiveness of sins
It has a visible means.
The discussion over whether or not Confession and Absolution is a sacrament falls with point #3, because there is no visible means. Unlike Communion, which has the bread and wine and Baptism, which has the water, there are no actual tangible means used in rendering the Absolution.

[Qoheleth]

There is debate as to whether or not Confession and Absolution is a sacrament. My understanding is that, to be considered a sacrament,

Our Confessions leave no room for debate.

4] Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments. For these rites have God's command and the promise of grace, which is peculiar to the New Testament. (Apology Art. XIII [VIII] )


Take a closer look at Article 13, you will see that the Confessions leave the door open to more than 3 Sacraments, even more than 7. In fact, depending on how one defines a Sacrament, there may be many numerous sacraments. The Confessors would not then absolutely define what a sacrament should be or not, just that by definition, many could exist.

Q

[ChiRho]

Every Saturday, at 11 a.m.

[ChiRho]

Sorry, Theo, we will disagree on this. General Confession and Private Confession / Absolution are are not the same thing and may not necessarily offer the same "perceived" benefits. Private Absolution is personal...you hear those sins you admitted to aloud are forgiven.

Here is a good article on the subject. (http://users.aol.com/SemperRef/private.html)

Rose

Wow. We really disagree on this one Rose. Corporate confession and absolution is just as valid and real.

Pax

[ChiRho]

Indeed, it is a Sacrament ordained by Christ and should in no way be neglected.

Is anyone prepared to say that Private Absolution is not a Sacrament?

Is this just another area of Lutheranism that can be relegated to pious opinion?


Q


Anyone prepared to declare Corporate Absolution less a Sacrament than Private?

If we have confessed our sin and the one who is called to stand in His stead announces His grace to us, are we less forgiven than if no one else was kneeling beside us?

[theologia crucis]

Wow. We really disagree on this one Rose. Corporate confession and absolution is just as valid and real.

Pax

I didn't think I was crazy...

[ChiRho]

Theo...it is a fact that private confession and absolution is not predominant in the LCMS. The decline in it's use has been said to even have influenced Pieper's discussion of absolution in his Christian Dogmatics.

Rose

Valid point, but not enough reason to make it Law nor imply that it is superior.

[ByzantineDixie]

Wow. We really disagree on this one Rose. Corporate confession and absolution is just as valid and real.

Pax

I am not questioning the validity...I am saying private confession offers something that corporate confession does not. Actually in several ways.

1) Saying one's sins outloud can be quite different than tossing them about in one's head. There is a gravity that comes with spoken words that can be lost in when sins remain hidden in our memories.
2) I don't know about you but I don't like going back month after month having to confess the same sins over and over. I believe that with private confession we gain strength to confront our sins and by grace we are able to actually able to keep from repeating them. Now you know I am not talking about becoming sinless but you also know that someone who has a problem with taking the Lord's name in vain can improve in this.
3) Hearing absolution for one's personal sins offers a comfort that corporate absolution does not offer (read the Walther reference).

Do you disagree with these?-----R

[ByzantineDixie]

Valid point, but not enough reason to make it Law.

Ya...I really struggle with that Law thing. I have to think about this a bit.-----R

[theologia crucis]

I am not questioning the validity...I am saying private confession offers something that corporate confession does not. Actually in several ways.

1) Saying one's sins outloud can be quite different than tossing them about in one's head. There is a gravity that comes with spoken words that can be lost in when sins remain hidden in our memories.
2) I don't know about you but I don't like going back month after month having to confess the same sins over and over. I believe that with private confession we gain strength to confront our sins and by grace we are able to actually able to keep from repeating them. Now you know I am not talking about becoming sinless but you also know that someone who has a problem with taking the Lord's name in vain can improve in this.
3) Hearing absolution for one's personal sins offers a comfort that corporate absolution does not offer (read the Walther reference).

Do you disagree with these?-----R

1) Yes. Does it absolutely HAVE to be to a pastor? No. You can confess to your spouse or who you have offended, etc.

2) Due to original sin, old sins will never be completely erradicated in this life. If one thinks they will, I'm not sure how good a grasp of original sin you have. Some (usually not Lutherans), think they can eliminate sin from their lives over time (Joyce Meyer?).

Mature Christians usually feel more and more sinful the stronger they become in faith. Look at St. Paul: Romans 7 and "chief of all sinners". Because of this, they cling more and more to the cross.

3) Disagree. Corporate absolution and the Sacrament of the Altar work just as good for me. I know the pastor is speaking directly to me, though addressing all. And I know I'm just as forgiven before hearing the absolution as I am afterwards...

[ByzantineDixie]

2) Due to original sin, old sins will never be completely erradicated in this life. If one thinks they will, I'm not sure how good a grasp of original sin you have. Some (usually not Lutherans), think they can eliminate sin from their lives over time (Joyce Meyer?).

I admitted up front that sin could not be erradicated. Did you miss that? Have you never been given the grace to stop doing a certain kind of sin? I bring this point up because this was actually a point used to instruct me as to the value of private confession / absolution. Maybe I'll find the (Lutheran) reference tomorrow.

Mature Christians usually feel more and more sinful the stronger they become in faith. Look at St. Paul: Romans 7 and "chief of all sinners". Because of this, they cling more and more to the cross.

I completely agree with this. Absolutely.

3) Disagree. Corporate absolution and the Sacrament of the Altar work just as good for me. I know the pastor is speaking directly to me, though addressing all. And I know I'm just as forgiven before hearing the absolution as I am afterwards...

Well, that's great that it works that way for you. It doesn't work that way for everyone.

If you go back to my first post in this thread I made the point that if the shepherd doesn't instruct...the sheep do not know to ask. Some sheep remain tormented by the guilt they bear from their sin. Private Absolution can give them something little else can. The loss of this practice in our synod is a loss that can have real negative consequences for the sheep. (They'll be watchin' Beth Moore videos making the "I'm Believing God" sign instead of the sign of the cross and trying to "do" something to rid themselves of the guilt.)-----R

[Qoheleth]

Anyone prepared to declare Corporate Absolution less a Sacrament than Private?

Answering a question with a question does not further the discussion. Would you like to answer my question first or are you saying we simply do not need private confession???

BTW, is corporate confession specifically notated in the Confessions as a Sacrament?? If not, why do you think there is a distinction?

Q

[Qoheleth]

1) Yes. Does it absolutely HAVE to be to a pastor? No. You can confess to your spouse or who you have offended, etc.

Smalcald Articles III/VIII: "Since Absolution or the Power of the Keys is also an aid and consolation against sin and a bad conscience, ordained by Christ (Himself) in the gospel, Confession or Absolution ought by no means to he abolished in the Church . . . for since private absolution originated in the Office of Keys, it should not be despised (neglected), but greatly and highly esteemed (of the highest worth), as (also) all other offices of the Christian Church."
On what scriptural basis, and likewise, Confessional basis do you derive this conclusion.

On what Confessional article do you offer that supports your statement?

Q

[AngelusSax]

On what scriptural basis, and likewise, Confessional basis do you derive this conclusion.

Scriptural basis may come from the Lord's Prayer. The part where it says "as we forgive those who trespass against us".

It's hard to forgive someone unless it's actual, um... forgiveness....

[Qoheleth]

Scriptural basis may come from the Lord's Prayer. The part where it says "as we forgive those who trespass against us".

It's hard to forgive someone unless it's actual, um... forgiveness....


ummm, thats not Private absolution and completely misses the point and taken out of context according to the Sacrament that Lutherans believe. I mean its there in the Confessions. Maybe you dont subscribe to them though?

Oh well, we dont need to follow that part, in fact we can pick and choose what we do accept and still call ourselves Lutheran.

Q

[theologia crucis]

On what scriptural basis, and likewise, Confessional basis do you derive this conclusion.

On what Confessional article do you offer that supports your statement?

Q

Confession to the one you have offended:

Numbers 5:7 (ESV)
he shall confess his sin that he has committed. And he shall make full restitution for his wrong, adding a fifth to it and giving it to him to whom he did the wrong.

Confession to God:

Psalm 32:5 (ESV)
I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,"
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah

Psalm 37:5 (ESV)
Commit your way to the Lord;
trust in him, and he will act.

Psalm 38:18 (ESV)
I confess my iniquity;
I am sorry for my sin.

1 John 1:9 (ESV)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confession to neighbor or fellow Christian:

James 5:16 (ESV)
Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

From the BoC: Apology XXV 7-13, in particular 11, and LC Confession 8,10-14, 20-22 for starters.

Yes, private confession should be encouraged and pastors should make known to their flock that it is available and great for the soul, but shall not be mandatory. If you need it, by all means, take full advantage of it! That's what's in the Confessions.

I can expand tomorrow if necessary. But, I'm going to bed now so I can be strengthend by corporate absolution at about 8:17 tomorrow morning...

[Qoheleth]

I can expand tomorrow if necessary. But, I'm going to bed now so I can be strengthend by corporate absolution at about 8:17 tomorrow morning...

None of those quotes answer the question and no the Sacrament can not be replaced with saying "im sorry". Nice try though. That is not what the Confessions or scripture teach.

To bad you dont agree with the Lutheran Confessions, its a serious spiritual loss not to take advantage of a Sacrament.

Q

[Qoheleth]

But, I'm going to bed now so I can be strengthend by corporate absolution at about 8:17 tomorrow morning...

Very good. I to am strengthend for Mass tomorrow as I received Private absolution tonight then prayed Vespers.

How often does everyone get to pray Vespers at their parish? Just curious.

Q

[theologia crucis]

Okay, I think we're talking past each other, and I wasn't being clear, so I beg for your forgiveness.:bow:

Yes, Rose, private confession should be offerred and encouraged regularly by the pastor so that the flock knows that it's available and to relieve their troubled consciences. Could our pastors do a better job of making it known, yes? But should it be commanded? Absolutely not.

When I said that it was available, this is the spirit I meant it. That's how it is in most of the Lutheran churches I've been to. Is it in the bulletin every service or advertized at Bible study? No. But the pastor regularly admonishes us to partake of it if we wish and unburden consciences.

And Q, when I talk about confessing to God or a neighbor, I'm not just a simple "I'm sorry", but gonig to them in true repentance (the "turning"), and asking for real forgiveness.

From the Explanation of the Small Catechism:

262. What sins should we confess before God?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even those we are not aware of, as we do in the Lord's Prayer.

876 Ps. 19:12 Who can discern his errors? Forgive my hidden faults.

877 Prov. 28:13 He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.

878 1 John 1:8-9 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

263. What sins should we confess before our neighbor?

Before our neighbor we should confess all sins we have committed against him or her.

879 James 5:16 Confess your sins to each other.

880 Matt. 5:23-24 If you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

I gather from that, and other passages (Sermon on the Mount and a portion of Matt 18 come to mind just off the top of my head, and I may be wrong), that we should reconcile our differences and ask for forgiveness from those we sin against. The passage from James 5 looks rather clear.

Now, publicly, yes, the pastor exercises the office of the Keys. Though, the Explanation of the Small Catechism says "pastor or confessor". Exactly who has the title "confessor"?

But, since we are part of the priesthood of all believers, we do retain this God-given ability:

Here [John 20:19-31] the power of absolution is given to all Christians, although some, like the pope, bishops, priests and monks, have appropriated it to themselves alone. They say publicly and shamelessly that this power is given to them alone and not to the laymen as well. But Christ is speaking here neither of priests or monks. On the contrary, he says: "Recieve ye the Holy Ghost." This power is given to him who has the Holy Ghost, that is, to him who is a Christian. But who is a Christian? He who believes. He who believes has the Holy Ghost. Therefore every Christian has the power ... to retain or remit sins.

From "What Luther Says", CPH, St. Louis, 1959, page 5 (of which I am fully aware are NOT part of the Lutheran Confessions, but do seem to reflect Scriptural truth).

Of course, that passage goes on to say that publicly, the pastor should perform this role for good order in the church, but privately, any Christian can do it as well:

If everybody wanted to hear confession, to baptize, to administer the Sacrament, how unseemly would that be! Again, if everybody desired to preach, who would listen? If we were all to preach at the same time, what a confused chattering that would be, such as you hear among the frogs!

Therefore it should be thus: the congregation chosses a suitable person, who administers the Sacrament, hears confession, and baptizes. To be sure, all of us possess this power; but no one except him who is chosen by the congregation to do so should presume to practice it publicly. In private, I may certainly use this power. If, for instance, my neighbor comes and says: My friend, I am burdened in conscience; speak a word of absolution to me, then I am at liberty to do so. But in private, I say, this must be done.

Just a couple other things from "What Luther Says":

So he takes a brother aside and tells him his trouble. What harm does it do to humble himself a little before his neighbor and put himself to shame? When you receive a word of comfort from him, accept and believe that word as if you heard it from God Himself.

p 330

Also:

Although it cannot be proved from Scripture that private confession, which is now customary, must be practiced...

Now, to try and close for the night, from the Confessions:

Concerning confession we have always taught that it should be voluntary and purged of the pope’s tyranny.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 476. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

To begin with, I have said that, in addition to the confession that we are discussing here, there are two other kinds, which have an even greater right to be called the common confession of Christians. I refer to the practice of confessing to God alone or to our neighbor alone, asking for forgiveness. These two kinds are included in the Lord’s Prayer when we say, “Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors,” etc. Indeed, the entire Lord’s Prayer is nothing else than such a confession. For what is our prayer but a confession that we neither have nor do what we ought and a plea for grace and a joyful conscience? This kind of confession should and must take place continuously as long as we live. For this is the essence of a genuinely Christian life, to acknowledge that we are sinners and to pray for grace.

Similarly the second confession, which all Christians make toward their neighbor, is also included in the Lord’s Prayer. We are to confess our guilt before one another and forgive one another before we come to God and ask for forgiveness. Now, all of us are debtors to one another; therefore we should and we may confess publicly in everyone’s presence, no one being afraid of anyone else. For it is true, as the proverb says, “If one person is upright, so are they all”; no one behaves toward God or the neighbor as he or she ought. However, besides the sum total of our sin, there are also individual ones, when a person has provoked someone else to anger and needs to ask for pardon. Thus we have in the Lord’s Prayer a twofold absolution: both our sins against God and against our neighbors are forgiven when we forgive our neighbors and become reconciled with them.

Besides this public, daily, and necessary confession, there is also the secret confession that takes place privately before a single brother or sister. This comes into play when some particular issue weighs on us or attacks us, eating away at us until we can have no peace nor find ourselves sufficiently strong in faith. Then we may at any time and as often as we wish lay our troubles before a brother or sister, seeking advice, comfort, and strength. This type of confession is not included in the commandment like the other two but is left to all to use whenever they need it. Thus by divine ordinance Christ himself has placed absolution in the mouths of his Christian community and commanded us to absolve one another from sins. So if there is a heart that feels its sin and desires comfort, it has here a sure refuge where it finds and hears God’s Word because through a human being God looses and absolves from sin.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 477. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

No one needs to drive you to confession by commanding it. Rather, we say this: Whoever is a Christian, or would like to be one, has here the reliable advice to go and obtain this precious treasure.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 478. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

In short, we want nothing to do with compulsion.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 479. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

Concerning confession, it is taught that no one should be compelled to enumerate sins in detail. For this is impossible, as the psalm [19:12] says: “But who can detect their errors?” And Jeremiah [17:9] says: “The human heart is so devious that no one can understand it.” Miserable human nature is so mired in sins that it cannot see or know them all. If we were absolved only from those sins that we can enumerate, we would be helped but little. That is why it is not necessary to compel people to enumerate sins in detail. This was also the view of the Fathers, as one finds it in dist. 1 of Concerning Confession where these words of Chrysostom are quoted: “I do not say that you should offer yourself up in public, or accuse yourself, or plead guilty before another person. Instead obey the prophet who says, ‘Reveal your way to the Lord’ [Ps. 37:5, Vulgate]. Therefore confess to the Lord God, the true judge, in your prayer. Do not speak your sin with the tongue, but in your conscience.” Here one can clearly see that Chrysostom does not force anyone to enumerate sins in detail. The marginal note in the Decretum, Concerning Confession, dist. 5, 161 also teaches that confession is not commanded in Scripture but was instituted by the church. Nevertheless, the preachers on our side diligently teach that confession is to be retained because of absolution (which is confession’s principal and foremost part) for the comfort of terrified consciences and because of other reasons.

Kolb, Robert, Timothy J. Wengert, and Charles P. Arand. The Book of Concord : The Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Page 72. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2000.

[theologia crucis]

And I know you don't seem to like this book, but:

On the basis of clear Scripture-passages, Luther taught that the whole Gospel is nothing else than God’s free absolution of all sinners for Christ’s sake, 2 Cor. 5:19–21; Rom. 4:25. On this fundamental truth the great Reformer based his entire doctrine regarding absolution, or the application of the general Gospel promises of forgiveness to individual persons, either in private confession (Privatbeichte) or in the general confession (allgemeine Beichte).

As Luther, so also the Lutheran Confessions inculcate the doctrine of absolution with great emphasis. The Smalcald Articles (Art. VI) declare: “The keys are an office and power given by Christ to the Church for binding and loosing sin.” And the Apology (Art. XII) says: “The power of the keys administers and presents the Gospel through absolution, which proclaims peace to men and is the true voice of the Gospel”; Art. XI: “We should believe the absolution and regard it as certain that the remission of sins is freely granted us for Christ’s sake”; Art. VI: “We also retain confession, especially on account of the absolution, as being the word of God which by divine authority the power of the keys pronounces upon individuals.” Similarly the Small Catechism: “Confession embraces two parts. The one is that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor as from God Himself and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.”

Absolution has been well defined as “that special form of administering the Gospel according to which a minister of the Church or any other Christian forgives one or more persons, upon their confession, their sins.” (Cp. Luther, St. L., XVI, 1795; X, 1235.) Luther: “Was ist die Absolution anders denn dos Evangelium einem einzelnen Menschen gesagt, der ueber seine bekannte Suende Trost dadurch empfahe?” Hence absolution is nothing else than the Gospel individualized, or applied to individuals, Matt. 9:2; Luke 7:48, just as it is done in the Sacraments. What the Gospel offers to all men, absolution offers to the individual.

Mueller, John Theodore. Christian Dogmatics. electronic ed. St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1934.

Lastly:

From these passages it is evident: a) that all who have received the Holy Ghost, that is to say, all true believers, are to remit or forgive sins; b) that this forgiveness relates to distinct persons (“whosesoever sins”); c) that all sins so forgiven by men are forgiven also before God in heaven (“they are remitted unto them”).

It must be well understood that in absolution the forgiveness of sins is not merely announced to, or invoked upon, men, but actually conferred and conveyed, John 20:23, just as this is done in the Gospel in general, Luke 24:47. Moreover, it is God who absolves from sin in absolution. There is not a twofold absolution, one pronounced by God and the other by man; but the absolution spoken by men is God’s absolution, pronounced by men in His stead. (Cp. Luther, St. L., XIX, 945.) The Augsburg Confession therefore rightly says (XXV): “Our people are being taught that they should highly prize the absolution as being the voice of God and pronounced by God’s command.” While the confession to the minister is an institution of the Church, the pronouncing of absolution to all who desire it is an institution of God.

Mueller, John Theodore. Christian Dogmatics. electronic ed. St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1934.

So, please show me where I am wrong. Again, I know I may not be as clear as I should or ordered things as well as I could, and I greatly repent of that sin.

But please use this as an oppurtunity using Scripture, the Confessions and clear reason to teach the correct position. Or was Luther wrong as well? I am always open to correction if I am wrong.

I guess I'm just a dumb, anti-confessional Schwärmer that doesn't know anything about sin, grace and Christ, and should change my username to theologia gloriae...

Lastly, isn't justification by grace alone through faith alone for Christ's sake? Doesn't God use many different means to strengthen our faith in Christ? The Sacrament (and remembering that I'm baptized and asking for forgiveness from those that I offend)? The Word? The mutual conversation of brethren? The Liturgy? I'm not aware of neglecting any of these. I try and take advantage of them all the time, and am fully aware of this free forgiveness of sins for Christ's sake in all of them, which is the ultimate end of all of them...

[Qoheleth]

Could our pastors do a better job of making it known, yes? But should it be commanded? Absolutely not.

Baptism and Holy Communion are sacraments, TC would advocate that neither of these sacraments should be commanded by this reasoning.

In fact since we only need Christ in Faith alone and only the bible, lets do away with all the sacraments, liturgy and so forth as they are not absolutely critical nor necessary--right? We wouldnt want to be seen as to much law now would we.

Is it safe to be selective and flippant with Scripture or the Confessions?

Apology XIII: "Therefore Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Absolution, which is the Sacrament of Repentance, are truly Sacraments.

"I will let no one take away private confession and would not exchange it for all the wealth of the world, for I know what strength and comfort it has given me." (Luther: Of Confession)

Even if thousands and thousands of worlds belonged to me, I would lose everything rather than give up the smallest part of confession in the church. Yes, rather would I accept the Papal tyranny on Fasts, Celebrations, Vestments, Cities, Plates, and Hats and whatever I could bear without destruction of the faith than that confession should be taken from the Christians ( WA 30III:566, 29-30 and 569, 6-11)

"Private absolution is thus as necessary as baptism," ( Melanchthon:Loci Communes)

I guess I'm just a dumb, anti-confessional Schwärmer that doesn't know anything about sin, grace and Christ, and should change my username to theologia gloriae...

Please. But, if the shoe fits...

Q

[ByzantineDixie]

Wow...we definitely are taking past each other, Theo. You have gone through an extensive and well documented effort to show that 1) private confession isn't absolutely necessary and 2) private confession should not be commanded. Do you realize the very same arguments could be used about the liturgy? But I know you recognize and appreciate and want to sustain the use of the liturgy. You have even been known to say "give me liturgy or give me death."...now why would you not afford someone the same freedoms to say "give me private confession or give me death"...alright the rhythm doesn't work as well but you get my thought. And the liturgy isn't even a sacrament!

Now I finally understand where ChiRho was going with the Law comment.

Regarding "not absolutely necessary": We know from our instruction that none of the Sacraments are absolutely necessary for salvation. The thief on the cross is the prime example.

Regarding "not commanded"...that which is not commanded, may still be beneficial and good for us, right?

Does "not absolutely necessary" and "not commanded" give us automatic license to allow this sacrament to fade into disuse? In fact, the sacraments were instituted for OUR BENEFIT! We are the ones on the receiving end of the gifts Christ offers to us through them. And accordingly we should encouraged their constant offering and repeated use.

Promoting private confession and all its benefits is not the same thing as saying absolutely necessary and commanded. Why is it that every time someone brings up a catholic practice that has fallen into neglect in the Lutheran church these same arguments surface? One can strip the faith down to an few points of absolute requirements and still achieve salvation BUT a couple of things happen when this is done...there is a loss in the fullness of faith as it is lived out here on earth and there is a greater risk of falling away as this life is lived out as well.

The Sacraments that Christ gives us through the church were given to protect us in this life--grace to feed and nurture our faith and keep us strong for this journey. I honestly don't understand how anyone could argue against their use and I honestly don't understand how anyone could defend the LCMS in general as being faithful to instruct God's people on the specific availability and benefits of private confession. Like I say...I have been a member of 4 different congregations in 4 different states over the last 15 years and was never encouraged to seek this sacrament.

Maybe your church is an outstanding exception, Theo. I surely know ChiRho's is. But come to my neck of the woods and I will show you Lutherans who look and sound and practice like Baptists. Accordingly, their journies are more difficult than need be. And that, my friend, is reality.

Rose

[ChiRho]

I am not questioning the validity...I am saying private confession offers something that corporate confession does not. Actually in several ways.

1) Saying one's sins outloud can be quite different than tossing them about in one's head. There is a gravity that comes with spoken words that can be lost in when sins remain hidden in our memories.
2) I don't know about you but I don't like going back month after month having to confess the same sins over and over. I believe that with private confession we gain strength to confront our sins and by grace we are able to actually able to keep from repeating them. Now you know I am not talking about becoming sinless but you also know that someone who has a problem with taking the Lord's name in vain can improve in this.
3) Hearing absolution for one's personal sins offers a comfort that corporate absolution does not offer (read the Walther reference).

Do you disagree with these?-----R

1) Saying one's sins aloud is difficult. Speaking them to another person is even more difficult. If anyone is struggling with terror, run to Christ.

2) Ok, you knew where I was going to go with this one. Can a person make the conscious effort not to utter the Lord's name in vain aloud? Certainly. A common vulgarity, to exclaim "Jesus Christ" when angered or frustrated was part of my everyday language. I don't recall saying that for atleast a couple years. I dont slip. (I do not need to really, there are plenty of four letter words to pepper my uncouth speech with anyway ;) )

Now, the reality. Have I stripped myself of hating Jesus? No. After years of daily private confession, will anyone? (Think Luther here). No. We may be able to curb bad behavior. We may be able to say "no" to our faculties as sin rises from within, fighting to manifest itself (I also doubt anyone is truly good at this either), but are we able to rid ourselves of our Old Adam's nature and inclination to evil? I say no. For during the times in our lives that we have moved from asking to be forgiven for the miserable sinners we are , to the bad person we were this morning for uttering that terrible word, we are growing numb to the desparing truth. Clinging a little less to Christ, we, full of pomp, think "I am making real progress here! I am not nearly as bad as I was!" This transition is silent and smooth. Because ofcourse, we are evil to begin with and fooling ourselves with what we want to hear is no arduous task.

Personal (fake) piety is an addicting game that we all play. The very truth of the matter lies in this question, "On whom does it all rest?" Does it rest on Christ or on us? Even, Q, whom I am sure is 1000 times the better person and Christian than I am, is not as contrite and repentant as one is called to be. True piety lies in Him, Whom is truly pious. I am pious because Christ is pious. I am forgiven because He has declared it so. His words as spoken through the lips of His called servant to the entire congregation, forgive me no less than if I were alone. For it does not depend upon me, but upon Christ.

3) This is not so. I am comforted by the words of Absolution, not in the fact that I built enough nerve to privately visit my pastor. Am I in anyway discouraging private confession? Not in the least. If you are in doubt and need assurance flee to Him. But whether they are heard by your ears alone, or by the whole church, they are just as true and comforting.

Pax

[Qoheleth]

True piety lies in Him, Whom is truly pious. I am pious because Christ is pious. I am forgiven because He has declared it so.

ChiRho, my friend, this is why I run to Him, to grace, to the Sacraments and make every effort to be renewed and filled by the Holy Spirit for I am weak and in constant need of all means of grace.

Q

[ChiRho]

ChiRho, my friend, this is why I run to Him, to grace, to the Sacraments and make every effort to be renewed and filled by the Holy Spirit for I am weak and in constant need of all means of grace.

Q


You make every effort, huh?

[Qoheleth]

You make every effort, huh?

Yes. I did not say my efforts are perfect. How could they be?

Q

[ChiRho]

Yes. I did not say my efforts are perfect. How could they be?

Q


My point exactly.

[Qoheleth]

My point exactly.

Right, and in light of this agreement then, the Sacraments (as enumerated by the Confessions, as we are Confessional Lutherans--right?) should be partaken of as often as possible. Yes? No?

Or maybe you are making another point?

Q

[revjpw]

1) Saying one's sins aloud is difficult. Speaking them to another person is even more difficult. If anyone is struggling with terror, run to Christ.


In His role of occupying the Office of the Keys and in pronouncing Holy Absolution, the Pastor is standing in the stead of Christ. What one confesses to his or her pastor in private confession is confessed directly to Christ. The Absolution that the Pastor pronounces is "in the stead and by the command" of Christ.

[ChiRho]

Right, and in light of this agreement then, the Sacraments (as enumerated by the Confessions, as we are Confessional Lutherans--right?) should be partaken of as often as possible. Yes? No?

Or maybe you are making another point?

Q

:scratch:

Are you still sub-catagorizing Corporate Confession and Absolution?

[ChiRho]

In His role of occupying the Office of the Keys and in pronouncing Holy Absolution, the Pastor is standing in the stead of Christ. What one confesses to his or her pastor in private confession is confessed directly to Christ. The Absolution that the Pastor pronounces is "in the stead and by the command" of Christ.


Yeah, I wasnt talking about a pastor in the second sentence. "To Christ" in the next sentence was referring to Holy Confession and Absolution.

[Protoevangel]

My church does not promote private Confession. When I approached my pastor about it, he said I could come to his office for it, but he said it is a manner that made me feel like I was some kind of weirdo for wanting it. It is sad really.

Private Confession should be available, announced and taught as an option for those whose consciences are troubled, for those who need to speak their sins and hear that those sins are indeed forgiven. Is it separate and distinct, better even, than corporate Absolution? No, but it should be available for those who's need it. There is absolutely something to be said for hearing the words of Absolution privately, after a frank Confession, even though Corporate Absolution is objectively just as valid as private.

[Qoheleth]

Are you still sub-catagorizing Corporate Confession and Absolution?

No. I am saying that as Holy Communion is a particular means of grace, as all Sacraments are, Private absolution should be held in the same light.

If I were able, I would receive the Eucharist everyday. It is life and communion and forgiveness. I believe Private Absolution has a very specific purpose as a Sacrament and should not be avoided or replaced by general absolution by a type of default, so to speak.

Q

[ByzantineDixie]

1) Saying one's sins aloud is difficult. Speaking them to another person is even more difficult. If anyone is struggling with terror, run to Christ.

2) Ok, you knew where I was going to go with this one. Can a person make the conscious effort not to utter the Lord's name in vain aloud? Certainly. A common vulgarity, to exclaim "Jesus Christ" when angered or frustrated was part of my everyday language. I don't recall saying that for atleast a couple years. I dont slip. (I do not need to really, there are plenty of four letter words to pepper my uncouth speech with anyway ;) )

Now, the reality. Have I stripped myself of hating Jesus? No. After years of daily private confession, will anyone? (Think Luther here). No. We may be able to curb bad behavior. We may be able to say "no" to our faculties as sin rises from within, fighting to manifest itself (I also doubt anyone is truly good at this either), but are we able to rid ourselves of our Old Adam's nature and inclination to evil? I say no. For during the times in our lives that we have moved from asking to be forgiven for the miserable sinners we are , to the bad person we were this morning for uttering that terrible word, we are growing numb to the desparing truth. Clinging a little less to Christ, we, full of pomp, think "I am making real progress here! I am not nearly as bad as I was!" This transition is silent and smooth. Because ofcourse, we are evil to begin with and fooling ourselves with what we want to hear is no arduous task.

Personal (fake) piety is an addicting game that we all play. The very truth of the matter lies in this question, "On whom does it all rest?" Does it rest on Christ or on us? Even, Q, whom I am sure is 1000 times the better person and Christian than I am, is not as contrite and repentant as one is called to be. True piety lies in Him, Whom is truly pious. I am pious because Christ is pious. I am forgiven because He has declared it so. His words as spoken through the lips of His called servant to the entire congregation, forgive me no less than if I were alone. For it does not depend upon me, but upon Christ.

3) This is not so. I am comforted by the words of Absolution, not in the fact that I built enough nerve to privately visit my pastor. Am I in anyway discouraging private confession? Not in the least. If you are in doubt and need assurance flee to Him. But whether they are heard by your ears alone, or by the whole church, they are just as true and comforting.

Pax

I guess I didn't express myself well...but the following captures my intent.

Just as a good shepherd tends his flock both as a group and each sheep individually, so a good pastor applies the blood-bought gifts of Christ to his congregation as a whole and to each member individually. In fact, individual absolution is the best way to administer this gift. Here the pastor can apply accurately the healing balm of Jesus' blood to those troublesome and annoying spots that may not have been reached by the sermon or the general absolution.

Confession humbles us and keeps us as beggars at the receiving end of Christ's gifts. We learn to speak like the broken-hearted publican instead of the self-righteous Pharisee. The false pride of our old Adam is crucified. We can leave behind our "Sunday best" and stop hiding behind our silly fig leaves. Many a troubled Christian has been greatly helped by disclosing the awful secret of his or her sin to a pastor only to hear Christ's sweet word of forgiveness. Individual confession and absolution is also a very potent weapon in the struggle against habitual sins such as drunkenness, sexual immorality, laziness, greed, gluttony, etc.

The most important benefit is that we are given to hear a clear, external, objective, official word from God that applies the saving merit of Jesus' death to us personally and individually. Rev. Wm. M. Cwirla

I admit...I am quite surprised we are having a disagreement about this....R

[ByzantineDixie]

My church does not promote private Confession. When I approached my pastor about it, he said I could come to his office for it, but he said it is a manner that made me feel like I was some kind of weirdo for wanting it. It is sad really.

Deja vu...exactly my experience. Made me feel horrible. Doesn't matter though...I keep comin' back for more.

(Oh, the last time I requested we go to the sanctuary...I liked that better than the office. You might want to try that.)

[SPALATIN]

Deja vu...exactly my experience. Made me feel horrible. Doesn't matter though...I keep comin' back for more.

(Oh, the last time I requested we go to the sanctuary...I liked that better than the office. You might want to try that.)

The last time I went in for private confession it ended up being more like counseling and I went for several sessions. I think many who are seeing a Pastor for counseling are in effect doing a sort of 'private' confession. Though I did not receive absolution for my sins (It was an ELCA church) but rather we examined why I did what I did to have to come to counseling in the first place.

Since I have always thought of Private Confession as more of a Catholic (Big C) rite, I have not considered going as a Lutheran. I do confess in public each Sunday and receive absolution from God through his servant the Pastor. I do consider it to be an important part of my worship as it prepares me for the Table. Up until this point I had not considered it a sacrament because of the visible means of Grace being absent. But when I think about it there is a visible means of Grace in that the Pastor is there announcing God's grace to you and making the sign of the cross.

I will be doing more study on Private confession to help me understand and determine for my own beliefs whether it is truly a sacrament or just a rite.

[Qoheleth]

The last time I went in for private confession it ended up being more like counseling and I went for several sessions. I think many who are seeing a Pastor for counseling are in effect doing a sort of 'private' confession. Though I did not receive absolution for my sins (It was an ELCA church) but rather we examined why I did what I did to have to come to counseling in the first place.

Scott, this is not what Private absolution is for, a conseling session. But I sense you know this.

Unfortunately, this part of Luthers' Small Catechism is not being taught at all or turned into what you have described.

Q

[SPALATIN]

Scott, this is not what Private absolution is for, a conseling session. But I sense you know this.

Unfortunately, thie part of Luthers' Small Catechism is not be taught at all or turned into what you have described.

Q

I agree that is not what it is for, but in a sense I was making a confession to a pastor about some poor behavior that I had conducted. I only went to 4 sessions with him, but felt that he had not really helped me as much as he could have. Instead he had me read a self-help book by a Christian writer instead of pointing me to scriptures and true repentance.

I think that you are correct about Luther's Small Catechism and this topic as it was never stressed in confirmation (that I can remember). Most of the churches that I grew up with did not teach this.

Scott

[VeryTiredGirl]

I've had Private Confession offered to me, but there wasn't time for me to think of what I wanted to confess. So I just went with the standard confession.

To be honest, I think I'd be too embarrassed to sit down and make a private confession...either that the stuff I'm bringing up is too small and stupid, or else the big stuff will make me look like a horrible person.

That being said, there is a part of me that would really like to actually make it a regular practice.

[ChiRho]

No. I am saying that as Holy Communion is a particular means of grace, as all Sacraments are, Private absolution should be held in the same light.

If I were able, I would receive the Eucharist everyday. It is life and communion and forgiveness. I believe Private Absolution has a very specific purpose as a Sacrament and should not be avoided or replaced by general absolution by a type of default, so to speak.

Q


"general absolution"

Wow. What is "general absolution"? How does it differ from "specific absolution"?


What is that mephitic scent? :scratch:

[C.F.W. Walther]

Hi----new member here :)

I'm an ELS, confessional Lutheran wannabe but have some issues (currently a waning LCMS member). One of them is the "absolution" issue. In Mathew 18 and other bible excepts supposedly Christ is issuing the "keys of the kingdom" to the disciples. It looks to me as if any statement to the diciples is just a blanket statement to all Christians. ie "where two or three are gathered together in my name", "what is bound on earth is bound in heaven". Even Peter who was supposedly given the keys states in

1 Peter 2:9 (Amplified Bible)
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a dedicated nation, [God's] own [a]purchased, special people, that you may set forth the wonderful deeds and display the virtues and perfections of Him Who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.(A)

To me this is a statement to all believers in Christ and that we are the "royal priesthood". Christ is the head of the church and then the dicipleship of believers. Even though Luther is an advocate for confessional absolution he also states :

"Although we hold private absolution to be very Christian and comforting, and that it should be maintained in the church (for the reasons that we have written to you before), nevertheless we cannot and do not wish to burden consciences so harshly as if there can be no forgiveness of sins except through private absolution. . . . And in summary, since the common Gospel is God's Word, which we are bound to believe by God's mandate and command—where such faith is, there indeed must forgiveness and salvation be. Thus, the Gospel itself is a general absolution; for it is a promise that each and everyone must individually receive, by God's mandate and command. Therefore we cannot forbid and condemn the general absolution as unchristian, as long as it serves this purpose: to remind the hearers that each individual must receive the Gospel as an absolution, and that it applies also to him . . . .

(From Luther's letter to Nürnberg, 8 October 1533 [WA Br 6:528–29])

The key statement here is "Thus, the Gospel itself is a general absolution".

Even in Acts 10 where some advocates says this is solely a delegated responsibility for the pastor, I see no evidence except the announcement of forgiveness of a prophet, pastor, minister and nothing more. No personal confession and absolution, Just an announcement of forgiveness of sins.

41Not by all the people but to us who were chosen (designated) beforehand by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

42And He charged us to preach to the people and to bear solemn testimony that He is the God-appointed and God-ordained Judge of the living and the dead.

43To Him all the prophets testify (bear witness) that everyone who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him, giving himself up to Him] receives forgiveness of sins through His name.

The "forgiveness of sins through His name" and the word is the sole working of sanctification/justification in our lives.

[SPALATIN]

I think that what we are talking about is the fact that Private Confession should still be there if we want it and desire it, but many in the Lutheran church have abandoned it and stick only to the General Confession/Absolution that is within the liturgy.

What I have read so far from this is that the Book of Concord states that it is a sacrament in that through it we receive forgiveness just as we do through the Eucharist. I don't believe that anyone is putting a mandate on private confession here but suggesting that it should be made available to those who want it.

[ChiRho]

"Although we hold private absolution to be very Christian and comforting, and that it should be maintained in the church (for the reasons that we have written to you before), nevertheless we cannot and do not wish to burden consciences so harshly as if there can be no forgiveness of sins except through private absolution. . . . And in summary, since the common Gospel is God's Word, which we are bound to believe by God's mandate and command—where such faith is, there indeed must forgiveness and salvation be. Thus, the Gospel itself is a general absolution; for it is a promise that each and everyone must individually receive, by God's mandate and command. Therefore we cannot forbid and condemn the general absolution as unchristian, as long as it serves this purpose: to remind the hearers that each individual must receive the Gospel as an absolution, and that it applies also to him . . . .

Well, Q, what do you say to this? All along, I have been in support of both private and corporate confession/absolution, emphasizing that everything depends upon the declared promise of forgiveness, His statement, not whether we approach solely or with a congregation of confessing sinners.. Private Confession is good and should be lauded, but to try and cause doubt in someone's true "corporate" confession and the forgiveness that is truly offered and given is wrong.

By the way, Radido, welcome and thank you for the quote.

Pax

[Qoheleth]

"general absolution"

Wow. What is "general absolution"? How does it differ from "specific absolution"?



You know what I refer to, within the Liturgy.

Well, Q, what do you say to this? All along, I have been in support of both private and corporate confession/absolution, emphasizing that everything depends upon the declared promise of forgiveness, His statement, not whether we approach solely or with a congregation of confessing sinners.. Private Confession is good and should be lauded, but to try and cause doubt in someone's true "corporate" confession and the forgiveness that is truly offered and given is wrong.

Then let me clarify the standard.

The Sacrament of Holy Communion is given unto us for Life, Forgiveness, strength. If the Sacrament is despised and falls into disuse, does that mean one can no longer have communion with God? Will He/She no longer find comfort or forgiveness?

Is Baptism necessary or not Absolutely necessary? If one should die before being Baptised, is there no forgiveness and only damnation?

What good is Confession/Absolution if our sins are already and for all time forgiven? Is it just a matter of living a life of repentance? What does this imply?

May we say that the Sacraments are not really needed after all? Can one be "saved" without them?


The Point concerning Congregational or Private Confession/Absolution, and is one more valid than the other, is not the point. They are equally Valid.

Is receiving Holy Communion necessary Absolutely, every day, every week?

The point is, why, with the Eucharists' life giving forgiveness would we limit its use or come to the conclusion that we only need it X amount of times a year.

Luther said (if I recall correctly) that one should receive Communion at least 4 times a year. Why did he say this? Because the practice in the Roman church at the time was to only require the Sacrament once a year. Luther went on to say at least 4, but why not as often as one attends Mass and why not every week or more.

As to Private Confession/Absolution, the grace, forgiveness and mercy communicated is intimate and penetrating. Is it not Sacramental? Of course it is. Should it fall into disuse? By no means. Does it "trump" General absolution...No.

But with that said, should it not be recognized as a Sacrament? Is general Absolution then also sacramental...Yes. Can one be replaced by the other? Should we even consider this?

More specifically, do we find in the Office of the Keys, the Sacrament of Private Absolution existing in the church and accepted down through the ages even into our Confessions...Yes.

Indeed, our Confessions accept this.

Q

[ChiRho]

You know what I refer to, within the Liturgy.



Then let me clarify the standard.

The Sacrament of Holy Communion is given unto us for Life, Forgiveness, strength. If the Sacrament is despised and falls into disuse, does that mean one can no longer have communion with God? Will He/She no longer find comfort or forgiveness?

Is Baptism necessary or not Absolutely necessary? If one should die before being Baptised, is there no forgiveness and only damnation?

What good is Confession/Absolution if our sins are already and for all time forgiven? Is it just a matter of living a life of repentance? What does this imply?

May we say that the Sacraments are not really needed after all? Can one be "saved" without them?


The Point concerning Congregational or Private Confession/Absolution, and is one more valid than the other, is not the point. They are equally Valid.

Is receiving Holy Communion necessary Absolutely, every day, every week?

The point is, why, with the Eucharists' life giving forgiveness would we limit its use or come to the conclusion that we only need it X amount of times a year.

Luther said (if I recall correctly) that one should receive Communion at least 4 times a year. Why did he say this? Because the practice in the Roman church at the time was to only require the Sacrament once a year. Luther went on to say at least 4, but why not as often as one attends Mass and why not every week or more.

As to Private Confession/Absolution, the grace, forgiveness and mercy communicated is intimate and penetrating. Is it not Sacramental? Of course it is. Should it fall into disuse? By no means. Does it "trump" General absolution...No.

But with that said, should it not be recognized as a Sacrament? Is general Absolution then also sacramental...Yes. Can one be replaced by the other? Should we even consider this?

More specifically, do we find in the Office of the Keys, the Sacrament of Private Absolution existing in the church and accepted down through the ages even into our Confessions...Yes.

Indeed, our Confessions accept this.

Q


First of all, I am not suggesting that we set a numerical limit, floor nor ceiling, on confessing. I am saying this, "Confess!" Whether it is done privately or as a church full of sinners, Absolution is yours. I believe that both are good and right.

Now has private confession fallen from the current Lutheran radar screen (or atleast shrunken to a tiny blip)? Sadly so. I think there are many factors causing this, I can think of two blatant ones. One, people do not regard their Pastors as they should. Preacher Bill or Pastor Mikey is too common, while Reverend Father is met with gross opposition. Confidence in him to do God's work should be priority one. If you dont care for his hair color, his choice of automobile, his sports' team allegiance, personality, or stale style of preaching so what? He is your spiritual father! Two, proper Catechesis is being traded for "better approaches that are more reflective of modern times." These children grow up to instill even poorer understanding to their children.

Pax

[SPALATIN]

First of all, I am not suggesting that we set a numerical limit, floor nor ceiling, on confessing. I am saying this, "Confess!" Whether it is done privately or as a church full of sinners, Absolution is yours. I believe that both are good and right.

Now has private confession fallen from the current Lutheran radar screen (or atleast shrunken to a tiny blip)? Sadly so. I think there are many factors causing this, I can think of two blatant ones. One, people do not regard their Pastors as they should. Preacher Bill or Pastor Mikey is too common, while Reverend Father is met with gross opposition. Confidence in him to do God's work should be priority one. If you dont care for his hair color, his choice of automobile, his sports' team allegiance, personality, or stale style of preaching so what? He is your spiritual father! Two, proper Catechesis is being traded for "better approaches that are more reflective of modern times." These children grow up to instill even poorer understanding to their children.

Pax

ChiRho,

I agree with what you say here about the title the Pastors should have. I realize that many here don't like LutherQuest, but there is in effect there a modicum of respect shown (even if it is not always felt) in using formal titles. We don't use first names unless we are given permission to do so. When I address Rolf Preus, I address him as Pastor Preus not Rolf or Pastor Rolf. I do stay away from the Reverend title as I consider that too good for a Pastor. Christ told us not to use Father as that is reserved for our Father in Heaven.

I think formality is important because it seems to have been lost especially in the business world. I would never introduce my children to my boss as This is "Greg" but would refer to him as Mr. Savoie.

I also agree with you about Confession/Absolution. No matter if it is Private or public it should be done as should Absolution.

Scott Strohkirch