THE third day is the first day? and other NT timings

[Sephania]

Have you ever thought about how the Brit Chadasha talks about the third day as the day YEshua rose on, but he arose just before the first day?

Also why is the only place that a month is mentioned in the whole Chadasha in Luke where it speaks of Gabriel being sent to Miriam in the sixth month?

What happened to all Hebraic numbering of time by the first month, the second month, etc?

[Bananna]

I thought it was Elizabeths sixth month of pregnancy, not the sixth Hebrew month...have to look at that one again.

Well yah some people count the days one two three,

bananna

[Sephania]

When it is read by itself it can be seen as the Hebrew reckoning of the months by number, not name.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


But I think that the confusion comes when reading two verses brefore that Elisheva hid herself for 5 months.

24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

This makes sense because it coinsides with what my friend found from tracing the courses of the cohanim from Quamrum and which part of the year Zackariyah was serving in. If it truly says sixth month meaning our month of Aug/sept Yeshua was born in May/June which would coincide with his calculation of June 2nd! Wow, this is so cool. Baruch HaShem!!!! for revealing this to me! :clap:

[Tishri1]

When it is read by itself it can be seen as the Hebrew reckoning of the months by number, not name.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


But I think that the confusion comes when reading two verses brefore that Elisheva hid herself for 5 months.

24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

This makes sense because it coinsides with what my friend found from tracing the courses of the cohanim from Quamrum and which part of the year Zackariyah was serving in. If it truly says sixth month meaning our month of Aug/sept Yeshua was born in May/June which would coincide with his calculation of June 2nd! Wow, this is so cool. Baruch HaShem!!!! for revealing this to me! :clap:I always looked at the first time that year when Zachariah served (All priests served twice a year + all the Holidays) which would be around the Fall Feasts and put John's birth at Passover (cup of Elijah) and so Yeshua would have been concieved at Channukah (Gabrial's and Mary's conversation mimicks the Channukah prayer for the First Night) and Yeshua would have been born on Sukkot (again the Angels salutations mimicks the prayers for Sukkot, the manger being a sukkah too) He could have been born on the First Day and circumcised on the Last Day which has lots of meaning too.


well anyway Like I always say...2 Jews, 3 opinions:wave:

http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-of-yeshua-at-sukkot.html

great article very detailed

[Bananna]

Zachariah went into the Holy of Holies. I thought this was done at Yom kippurim.
21The crowd was waiting for Zechariah and kept wondering why he was staying so long in the temple. 22When he did come out, he could not speak, and they knew he had seen a vision. He motioned to them with his hands, but did not say a thing.


23When Zechariah's time of service in the temple was over, he went home. 24Soon after that, his wife was expecting a baby, and for five months she did not leave the house. She said to herself, 25"What the Lord has done for me will keep people from looking down on me." [e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201%20;&version=46;#fen-CEV-21520e)] An Angel Tells about the Birth of Jesus

26One month later God sent the angel Gabriel to the town of Nazareth in Galilee 27with a message for a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to Joseph from the family of King David. 28The angel greeted Mary and said, "You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you."
29Mary was confused
I see no indication that God has changed the reconing of the time line. There is the physical callender and the Spiritual calendar. In context here why would Luke (who is speaking to Theophilus) switch to a Jewish calendar from the spiritual one, or from reconning time by Elizebeths pregnancy to the Jewish calendar?

I'm still of the opinion that Yohannan was born in the spring and Yehoshuah in the fall. JMO
bananna

[Tishri1]

I just read the article cuz it had been some time since I had looked at it...and it also conforms it by looking at the death of King Harod

I know Zachariah wasn't the High Priest Bananna,so he wouldn't be in the Most Holy Place (Yom Kippur) but get this: Every priest had to pick a lot to burn insense in the Holy Place for the morning and evening sacrifices and you could only be picked once in you life! So He is picked for this job and while he is in there, the only time in his life he can do this; God speaks about John to him:clap:.There are special prayers that are sung too for the Amidah service, and if you look at them they speak about the Messiah...The angel said Your prayers have been answered. What was he singing/praying at just that moment? Exciting Huh?

[Sephania]

The problem with whoever figured that by the courses did not realize that the courses kept going, they were not of the same week in the year each year, they are perpetual. :)

[beej7]

Someone on this forum explained in great detail about His birth being around Sukkot...fulfilling that festival. I wish I remembered more...what I DO remember is that it was such an event...so clearly (I thought) the reason for the festival....that it was not hard at all to forget/leave Christmas behind. But understanding the scriptures under a new light is taking some getting used to...so my memory may be a little skewed.

Beej

[Tishri1]

The problem with whoever figured that by the courses did not realize that the courses kept going, they were not of the same week in the year each year, they are perpetual. :)OOOH that is very interesting Zayit! I bet that Joe knew this cuz he is intimately involved with several Rabbi's who are in the Sanhedren and all the Rabbi's at the Temple Institute in Israel and it's their job to know these things. I'll call him and ask him (or Debi Good) on Tuesday, that is very interesting indeed:thumbsup:

[Bananna]

Luk 1:8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,

Luk 1:9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

Luk 1:10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

Luk 1:11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

Luk 1:12 And when Zacharias saw [him], he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

Luk 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on [me], to take away my reproach among men.
Luk 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luk 1:39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

Luk 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

Luk 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

So the time to bring incence before the Lord Zacharias served
The next month he goes home and Elizabeth concieves, so we know that they have to be talking about Elizebeths sixth month which is confirmed by Gabriel to Mary, but it would have to be at least the 7 th month of the year if the days of Zacharias service were the first month of the year, but we don't know how long it took her to concieve, nor do we know how long it took Mary to get to Elizabeth, but possibly Miriam concieved in the Seventh month or eighth month and we only know she Saw Elizabeth in the sixth or seventh month of pregnancy For Elizabeth.

And I finally located that obscure verse showing that Miriam was of the line of David and Aron. Priest and King.
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:



hey how many times a year do they burn incense before the Lord?
bananna

[Bon]

Someone on this forum explained in great detail about His birth being around Sukkot...fulfilling that festival. I wish I remembered more...what I DO remember is that it was such an event...so clearly (I thought) the reason for the festival....that it was not hard at all to forget/leave Christmas behind. But understanding the scriptures under a new light is taking some getting used to...so my memory may be a little skewed.

Beej

Hey Beej,

I think it was visionary,
Check the net, type in "Yeshua born on Sukkot"....I'm out, but have the site saved in my favourites at home.
I'll check it when I get back. :)

I commend you for working so hard to change old habits...:hug:

Shalom from Bon

[Tishri1]

Bananna asked how many times a year they burn incense.... Hi Bananna.... everyday, twice a day in the holy place( the morning and evening sacrifices) and once a year in the most holy place(Yom Kippur):wave:

[Tishri1]

Someone on this forum explained in great detail about His birth being around Sukkot...fulfilling that festival. I wish I remembered more...what I DO remember is that it was such an event...so clearly (I thought) the reason for the festival....that it was not hard at all to forget/leave Christmas behind. But understanding the scriptures under a new light is taking some getting used to...so my memory may be a little skewed.

Beej

I know what you mean Beej, Here is another theory for Mary's visit to Elizabeth:

Mary was in need of a Temple service that would declare her innocent of adultery. It is called the Sotah Service

Purification from Suspicion of Adultery

3. It still remains to describe the peculiar ceremonial connected with the purification of a wife from the suspicion of adultery. Strictly speaking, there was no real offering connected with this. The rites (Num 5:11-31) consisted of two parts, in the first of which the woman in her wave-offering solemnly commended her ways to the Holy Lord God of Israel, thus professing innocence: while in the second, she intimated her readiness to abide the consequences of her profession and appeal to God. Both acts were symbolical, nor did either of them imply anything like an ordeal. The meat-offering which she brought in her hand symbolised her works, the fruit of her life. But owing to the fact that her life was open to suspicion, it was brought, not ofAmen testified that she had quite apprehended the meaning of the whole, and that she made her solemn appeal to God, was then in a symbolical act to do two things. First, she presented in her meat-offering, which the priest waved, her life to the heart-searching God, and then, prepared for the consequences of her appeal, she drank the bitter mixture of the threatened curses, assured that it could do no harm to her who was innocent, whereas, if wheat, as on other occasions, but of barley-flour, which constituted the poorest fare, while, for the same reason, the customary addition of oil and frankincense was omitted. Before this offering was waved and part of it burned on the altar, the priest had to warn the woman of the terrible consequences of a false profession before the Lord, and to exhibit what he spoke in a symbolical act. He wrote the words of the curse upon a roll; then, taking water out of the laver, in which the daily impurities of the priests were, so to speak, symbolically cleansed, and putting into it dust of the sanctuary, he washed in this mixture the writing of the curses, which were denounced upon the special sin of which she was suspected. And the woman, having by a repeated guilty, she had appealed to God, judgment would certainly at some time overtake her, and that in a manner corresponding to the sin which she had committed.


If she went to live with Elizabeth and Zachariah and was indeed pregnant while there(which we know she was) the cerimony would clear her of all charges, proving her conception via the Holy Spirit and he being her Priest Uncle could very well perform it for her...just a thought

[Bon]

Ah! here it is....Is this what you are after Beej?

http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-of-yeshua-at-sukkot.html

[chunkofcoal]

I know what you mean Beej, Here is another theory for Mary's visit to Elizabeth:

Mary was in need of a Temple service that would declare her innocent of adultery. It is called the Sotah Service

[size=3]

If she went to live with Elizabeth and Zachariah and was indeed pregnant while there(which we know she was) the cerimony would clear her of all charges, proving her conception via the Holy Spirit and he being her Priest Uncle could very well perform it for her...just a thought

Isn't that ceremony for men who are filled with 'spirit of jealousy', thinking that his wife may have cheated on him? I don't think Joseph would've had that ceremony performed for Mary - Joseph believed what the angel of the Lord told him. Matthew 1:18-25

[Mikhail]

Isn't that ceremony for men who are filled with 'spirit of jealousy', thinking that his wife may have cheated on him? I don't think Joseph would've had that ceremony performed for Mary - Joseph believed what the angel of the Lord told him. Matthew 1:18-25

Intersting I beleive that this was not just done for the Jealous huband but also done as a way to clear the innocent. Also keep in mind that the Husbands duty was/is to make sure that his inheritance was passed on to his seed in both a spiritual and physical sense. A husband that suspected and did nothing was accountable to Elohim to deal with the issue and not let it just go by without dealing with it.
Shalom,
Mikhail

[Sephania]

I discussed this with my friend yesterday after shul and he said that I had read it correctly. The verse regarding Elisheva should not be presumed when reading the verse about the visit from Gabriel. It does not say in her sixth month but the proper understood month, the sixth month.

I know this blows everyones theorys about Yeshua being born on Sukkot, and being circumcised on the 8th day or second high Shabbat of the feast. Also many believe that his ministry was 31/2 years but it was actually almost 6 years. Which makes sense to me as he preached the kingdom of G-d ,1 year for each of the days of creation or one day for each day of ordinary, secular or common time, and his rest is in the seventh day.

[talmidim]

I discussed this with my friend yesterday after shul and he said that I had read it correctly. The verse regarding Elisheva should not be presumed when reading the verse about the visit from Gabriel. It does not say in her sixth month but the proper understood month, the sixth month.

I know this blows everyones theorys about Yeshua being born on Sukkot, and being circumcised on the 8th day or second high Shabbat of the feast. Also many believe that his ministry was 31/2 years but it was actually almost 6 years. Which makes sense to me as he preached the kingdom of G-d ,1 year for each of the days of creation or one day for each day of ordinary, secular or common time, and his rest is in the seventh day.Shalom Zayit, :wave:

Are you aware of the popular teaching of the chronology of His ministry (on those channels with all of the "Messiahmercials" :sick: )? They are claiming (along with many other teachers) that Yeshua started his ministry with the mikvah of Yohannan the Immerser, after 40 days of affliction of His soul and teshuvah in the desert, He announced His ministry at the declaration of the Jubilee (via Isaiah) on the tenth day of seventh month (Yom Kippur). He would read Parashah in Synagogue and then teach it, perform it (fulfilling prophecy with signs and wonders) and live it (literally becoming the Living Word [Torah]) for all to see. :bow:

Three and one half years later, He concluded His public ministry with the Pesach sacrifice, The wave sheaf (first fruits) offering of resurrection and the final fourty days of His appearances before His ascencion. Me personally, I am getting discouraged at the "Messiahmercials" (send money NOW!!! :o ) but something in my spirit agrees with the chronology and purpose of His ministry as represented in this teaching. :) I haven't done enough research to make a "call" about it, but it just feels right, y'know?

In His love...

[Tishri1]

Isn't that ceremony for men who are filled with 'spirit of jealousy', thinking that his wife may have cheated on him? I don't think Joseph would've had that ceremony performed for Mary - Joseph believed what the angel of the Lord told him. Matthew 1:18-25Your right there too, I always wondered though if anyone had doubts about her she was living with a priest foe a while and could easily prove her inocence, plus would Zachariahs be obliged to perform it for his niece if there was any talk, it's just a thought, not a fact.

[Sephania]

Luke 1:26 And (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1161&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) the sixth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1623&version=kjv) month (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3376&version=kjv) the angel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=32&version=kjv) Gabriel (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1043&version=kjv) was sent (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=649&version=kjv) from (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5259&version=kjv) God (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2316&version=kjv) unto (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1519&version=kjv) a city (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4172&version=kjv) of Galilee, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1056&version=kjv) named (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3686&version=kjv) * (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3739&version=kjv) * Nazareth, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3478&version=kjv) Luke 1:36 And, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) behold (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2400&version=kjv), thy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4675&version=kjv) cousin (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4773&version=kjv) Elisabeth, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1665&version=kjv) she (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) hath (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4815&version=kjv) also (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) conceived (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4815&version=kjv) a son (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5207&version=kjv) in (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1722&version=kjv) her (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) old age: (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1094&version=kjv) and (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2532&version=kjv) this (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3778&version=kjv) is (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2076&version=kjv) the sixth (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1623&version=kjv) month (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3376&version=kjv) with her, (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=846&version=kjv) who (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=3588&version=kjv) was called (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2564&version=kjv) barren. (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=4723&version=kjv) Now there is a difference here, and I understand the commonality of interpretation that the sixth month referred to in verse 26 means the same as Elizabeths sixth month but it is not. It means the sixth month of the year. Where the confusion stems from is verse 36 where Gabriel tells Mariam that her cousin is pregnant and it is the sixth month with her.

But that would be because Elisheva sixth month was ALSO the sixth month of the Hebrew year, thus our August/Sept.

[Sephania]

I see no indication that God has changed the reconing of the time line. There is the physical callender and the Spiritual calendar. In context here why would Luke (who is speaking to Theophilus) switch to a Jewish calendar from the spiritual one, or from reconning time by Elizebeths pregnancy to the Jewish calendar?

I'm still of the opinion that Yohannan was born in the spring and Yehoshuah in the fall. JMO
bananna

I don't understand what you are calling a Spiritual calendar and a Jewish calendar?

[visionary]

Maybe he is talking about the Jewish Civil Calendar and the Jewish sacred calendar? From what I understand the Passover is the start of the Sacred and Feast of Trumpets is the Civil. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Steve Petersen]

There is a great article 'The birth of Yeshua at Sukkot' at Joseph Good's website: hatikva dot org.

Enjoy.

[Tishri1]

I always looked at the first time that year when Zachariah served (All priests served twice a year + all the Holidays) which would be around the Fall Feasts and put John's birth at Passover (cup of Elijah) and so Yeshua would have been concieved at Channukah (Gabrial's and Mary's conversation mimicks the Channukah prayer for the First Night) and Yeshua would have been born on Sukkot (again the Angels salutations mimicks the prayers for Sukkot, the manger being a sukkah too) He could have been born on the First Day and circumcised on the Last Day which has lots of meaning too.


well anyway Like I always say...2 Jews, 3 opinions:wave:

http://www.hatikva.org/articles/birth-of-yeshua-at-sukkot.html

great article very detailedok it's been recommended 3x now , 3, third that's a great number don't cha think....so who still hasn't read it yet?

[Bananna]

Thank you visionary.
Thanks tish for the link.

[Tishri1]

:pray:welcome Bananna

[Sephania]

As I said before, everyone who uses the courses to reckon the birth is assuming numerous things



The date that Gabriel the angel told Zechariah that he and his wife were going to have Yochanan is established from the following. Luke 1.5 states that Zechariah is a priest of the course of Abijah. King David, according to I Chronicles twenty-four, had divided the priestly families into twenty-four groups. Each group was called a course, and named after the head of that particular family. Each course served for one week in the first half of the year, and for another week the second half of the year. This was in addition to the weeks of Hag haMatzah, Shavuot, and Sukkot, when all the courses were required to be present (Deuteronomy 16.16). Therefore, the first course served the first week of the year (Aviv); the second course, the second week; then all the courses, the third, because it was Hag haMatzah, and so on. I Chronicles 24.10 lists the course of Abijah as the eighth course. This course would serve the tenth week of the first half of the year, having allowed two weeks for Hag haMatzah and Shavuot. It is at this time that Zechariah receives the prophecy of Yochanan's birth.



1. That the courses started at the beginning of the year instead of being perpetual.
2. That courses were skipped when one of the "pilgram" festivals was taking place.
3. They also give no reference to how they know this information

It is also assumed by this author that the courses were named after a certain family head, which if anyone did any cursory study of the Bible would see that some of the names of the courses only appear listed as the name of the course, never as anyones given name. Such as Sorim,Huppah, Jeshebeab, Aphses, Gamul,

[Tishri1]

I asked a friend of Joe's to ask him about this as she was gonna call him this weekend anyway,

so maybe he has the answer to question this too. He has been working with Rabbi Richman from the Sanhedrin(and the Temple Institute) for years and years and has spent the better part of his life studying the temple and its services so, since he wrote the article , I guess He should be able to answer any questions we all may have.

It was a great question though I cant wait for the explanation. He has the resourses in his friends(from the T.I. ) to find the answer too if he doesn't know himself so we should have an answer this week.

[Sephania]

Find out from him where the data about the courses comes from and a link to this info if possible.

[Tishri1]

Find out from him where the data about the courses comes from and a link to this info if possible. Sure no problem, I love to throw hard questions at him :clap:so this is fun for me!

[Sephania]

:)

[ShirChadash]

:wave: Y'shua was born at Sukkot -- this is my/my husband's/my family's stand as well, yes. In context of the discussion, it is clear to me that the "6th month" being spoken of was intended to be connected to the previous five months of Elizabeth's pregnancy, mentioned just prior to the 6th month reference.

Someone on this forum explained in great detail about His birth being around Sukkot...fulfilling that festival. I wish I remembered more...what I DO remember is that it was such an event...so clearly (I thought) the reason for the festival....that it was not hard at all to forget/leave Christmas behind. But understanding the scriptures under a new light is taking some getting used to...so my memory may be a little skewed.

Beej

[Sephania]

Hey, I been the cheese before! :)

[Tishri1]

Hey, I been the cheese before! :)HAHA:D me too! love it Zayit! Your so funny:kiss:

[Sephania]

:) ( It goes with me being quackers!) :D