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e=mv^2
5th May 2005, 01:15 PM
I was reading about judiasm today and found this.
Please help me understand.

Ein Sof and the Ten Sefirot

To give you an idea of the nature of Kabbalah, I will briefly discuss one of the better known, fundamental concepts of kabbalistic thought: the concept of G-d (http://jewfaq.org/defs/g-d.htm) as Ein Sof, the Ten Sefirot, and the kabbalistic tree of life. This explanation is, at best, a gross oversimplification. I do not pretend to fully understand these ideas.

According to Kabbalah, the true essence of G-d is so transcendent that it cannot be described, except with reference to what it is not. This true essence of G-d is known as Ein Sof, which literally means "without end," which encompasses the idea of His lack of boundaries in both time and space. In this truest form, the Ein Sof is so transcendent that It cannot have any direct interaction with the universe. The Ein Sof interacts with the universe through ten emanations from this essence, known as the Ten Sefirot.

http://jewfaq.org/graphics/tree.gif
These Sefirot correspond to qualities of G-d. They consist of, in descending order, Keter (the crown), Chokhmah (wisdom), Binah (intuition, understanding), Chesed (mercy) or Gedulah (greatness), Gevurah (strength), Tiferet (glory), Netzach (victory), Hod (majesty), Yesod (foundation) and Malkut (sovereignty). The middle five qualities are mentioned explicitly and in order at I Chronicles 29:11: Yours, O L-rd, is the greatness (gedulah), the strength (gevurah), the glory (tiferet), the power (netzach), and the splendor (hod). I have seen this passage translated in widely varying ways, but the Hebrew corresponds to the names of the Sefirot in order.








Now - Turn to I Chronicles 29:11 in your KJV of the bible see what order these qualities are in. If the Hebrew corresponds to those qualities in the order described above - why does the KJV change the order? I can't see a reason to change for clarity and the change was not made in order of a hierarchy of attributes.

Can anyone explain this one?

Also note that the ASV has the same ordering.

BT
5th May 2005, 02:11 PM
Bro you would be better off asking this question in the Messianic Jew forum. They would be perfectly equipped to answer you, and I think you will find very little kindness towards the Kabbalah (from what I understand). It seems to be a book of "mysticism" not holy writ. So we don't compare the Bible (any version) with a book like that, nor do we nix the Bible (NT) because of what might be said in the Talmud (Judaism's oral law). The Bible stands alone and is the inspired Word that all else is compared to. But it's an interesting study, I really think you should ask those good folks over in MJ... A great bunch of people.

twistedsketch
5th May 2005, 02:12 PM
The Kaballah is not exactly a credible source for theology. It is Judaism mixed with occult. You'd have to see if the Biblical Hebrew texts use the same order - the Masoraic Texts or the Dead Sea Scrolls - to really prove your point.

Just as a disclaimer, I am not KJV-only.

e=mv^2
5th May 2005, 02:24 PM
Ignore the Kabbala. Forget that it is there.

In the hebrew text for I Chronicles 29:11 it reads:

Yours, O L-rd, is the greatness (gedulah), the strength (gevurah), the glory (tiferet), the power (netzach), and the splendor (hod).

in the KJV:

11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

Why is there a difference in the ordering of the values here?

e=mv^2
5th May 2005, 03:06 PM
Chronicles 1 29:11 Hebrew
םימשב לכ-יכ דוההו חצנהו תראפתהו הרובגהו הלדגה הוהי ךל
:שארל לכל אשנתמהו הכלממה הוהי ךל ץראבו
Translit
le.kha ye.ho.va ha.ge.du.la ve.hag.vu.ra ve.ha.tif.e.ret ve.ha.ne.tsakh ve.ha.hod ki-khol ba.sha.ma.yim u.va.a.rets le.kha a.do.nai ha.mam.la.kha ve.ha.mit.na.se le.khol le.rosh:
English
Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is Thine; Thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and Thou art exalted as head above all.

Have a look at this. The english is just as the KJV reads. But if you look at the hebrew transliteration you see it in this order:

ge.du.la
hag.vu.ra
tif.e.ret
ne.tsakh
hod
Makes no sense to me at all.

AVBunyan
5th May 2005, 04:23 PM
Have a look at this. The english is just as the KJV reads. But if you look at the hebrew transliteration you see it in this order:
Makes no sense to me at all.
Interesting topic but I cannot add anything here for two reasons:

1. I cannot read Hebrew.

2. I will always take the AV reading over any example given.

Rule of thumb - if it disagrees with the AV then stick with the AV. :thumbsup:

God bless :wave:

twistedsketch
5th May 2005, 06:00 PM
Why is there a difference in the ordering of the values here?
Why should it matter?

Shane Roach
5th May 2005, 11:21 PM
Greatness is the first in both. Power and strength are synonyms. Glory matches glory. Power in the first is then matched with victory in the KJV, then Splendor and Majesty are matched together. I don't see this as a change in order so much as a translational point. None of these are so far off as to make and real difference to the meaning linguistically that I am able to understand. A Kabalist might not like it because of some percieved inconsistancy with mystic truth, as occult matters often revolve around order, numbers, etc.

I'd also second the suggestion you ask around in the Messianic Jew forum.