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By Grace
5th May 2005, 09:39 AM
Obviously, I wasn't sure what to title this thread. I have several ideas running through my head, and I just need to brainstorm for a few minutes.

Lately, I've felt myself losing focus on several things. I'm still reading my CJB nearly every day, and trying to honor Shabbat as much as I can. I'm still working on improving and cleansing our diets, with much progress being made--DH and I are both losing weight, even though neither of us was seriously overweight to begin with, and both the girls are eating veggies better. :thumbsup: But I'm finding that I'm backing off from some other things. I still intend to celebrate the mo'edim as best I can, but I don't feel all fired up about it like I have been the past several months. And I don't feel a burning desire to attend a Messianic congregation or even to socialize with as many Messianics as I can find. Instead, I've been focusing on DH. He's still lagging behind on the spiritual growth, so I'm trying to meet him where he is. It's like I've come down from my high horse to hold his hand and walk with him for a while. I'm looking for ways to make him happy, and some of that means giving up some of the things that have been so important to me over the past several months of my spiritual growth spurt. It's not that I'm turning my back on Torah, not that at all! But I'm focusing more on the aspect of loving my husband than on things like tzitzit or festivals or whatever. There are some things that I think are very important that I'm keeping up with, and those tend to be things that DH doesn't have a problem with anyway. So I feel very comfortable that God is showing me I can continue with those while turning my focus back onto DH.

So, all of that leads into some other questions. On the King David and Pesach thread, Shimshon discussed that perhaps David didn't celebrate Pesach b/c he was more focused on heart obedience, and he lived in a time when Pesach observance possibly would have been counterproductive. Is that basically your point? That detailed observance of the letter of the law was not as important as how David related to his people? To me, that's kind of similar to what I'm experiencing. It's not so important that I observe Shabbat perfectly, as it is that I use the opportunity to make Shabbat a blessing for those around me. For example, a few weeks ago, DH was actually home on Shabbat, rather than having to work overtime. Usually, I stay home with the girls on Shabbat, and we don't go anywhere but rather spend most of our free time playing together. But that week, I really wanted DH to experience the specialness of Shabbat, to have a day to remember, a day that catered to his interests. So we went on a fishing trip to a stocked pond. True, we did have to pay money to the owners of the pond, so that was commerce, which I normally try to avoid on Shabbat. But we had such an amazing time together! DH really, really enjoyed the day, with all the time we had together doing something a little different; we made some great memories. I took several pictures, which we've had fun printing out in b&w and framing (see my avatar!). So, even though it wasn't perfect obedience of the written law for Shabbat (no commerce), it was obedience to the heart of the law, where I, as the wife, focused on making the day an enjoyable blessing for my family, especially my husband.

So here's where I'm kinda confused. If I should sacrifice strict obedience to the letter for the sake of my husband, should I also sacrifice strict adherence for the sake of others around me, like Jews? Recently, a Jewish woman joined our playgroup. She's pretty observant, and was raised being observant. I haven't had much opportunity to talk with her yet, but yesterday at the library during Story Hour, I overheard her talking with a friend about her Pesach seder. I didn't join into the conversation, b/c I didn't want to make a big deal about the fact I had celebrated a month ago, according to the Abib calendar. I feel in my heart that the Abib calendar is more true to the letter of Torah, but does that miss the intent of fellowship and loving those around me? Wouldn't it have been a really neat opportunity to share with this woman, if I was going by the rabbinical calendar instead? Maybe I should do both? (have my cake and eat it, too! :yum: ;) ) I really don't know. I can't fathom taking on so many of the rabbinic laws, like the meat and dairy issue. But I so want to be able to relate with Jews where they are, rather than taking the risk of appearing to have some kind of superiority complex, a "better than thou" attitude of any kind. It's not my desire to purposely do things wrong, but it's also not my desire to alienate everyone around me just for the sake of "doing it RIGHT." Yk? It's not my responsibility to FIX everyone around me. But it IS my responsibility to fellowship, support, witness, and not be a stumbling block.

Before this lady joined our group, I was so sure that I should do things so independently, the way I read them in Torah and who cares what everyone else thinks. But now, I feel a sense of responsibility in the way I handle their traditions, the extent to which I incorporate rabbinical laws. I don't think the rabbis today have the authority that they attribute to themselves, but since other people do, should I submit as one who is free? In order to fellowship and witness? With a heart of love and desire to gain their trust and respect?

At times like this, I start hoping that Yeshua will return soon, so we can all obey Torah the way it was meant to be obeyed! But then, I start to think of all the trials our world will face just before His coming, and I realize how much more preparation I have to do, especially in preparing my daughters for whatever may come. Oh, Father, help us through! Give us Your guidance, make clear your Will for us! Don't let my selfishness or any of the voices in my head get in the way of Your instructions for me! :bow:

Sephania
5th May 2005, 10:38 AM
While reading through your whole post Jill, this scripture kept popping into my head, Isaiah 58:12-14, so that is all I will offer, not my own opinion. :)

Tishri1
5th May 2005, 12:48 PM
I think it's great that you bent alittle toward you DH to draw him in, and I think that in turn he may just bend alittle towards you too. Remember that the Sabbath was made for you, and your hearts longing is for what? To go fishing? I don't think a little fishing now and then will alter what is really the desire of your heart...and It just may help you get there sooner than later!

I long for ALL of us to be "One" concerning the Sabbath, I already know that it is a day for me to fellowship with my ABBA, and my heart agrees, so if I bend to grab DH hand and he wont take it what should I do? Change my desire? Well maybe for a weekor so and see what happens to our relationship, if he responds then yippy:clap:!

What if he never responds? What then? Well that bridge can be crossed later with the Father's help ; but as for right now as long as I have this desire to be "ONE" on Shabbat, I will choose things that draw us all in that direction,and even if it means an occational letting go of my wants (and shoulds) in order to draw the rest of them in.

:sigh:It is rather lonely doing this the "right way" but all by myself, watching other families sitting there so harmoniously, longing for that yourself......

alittle fishing with the right "Bait" might be just the ticket for my DH to "get hooked" on the Sabbath too!:clap:

Shimshon
5th May 2005, 01:47 PM
Obviously, I wasn't sure what to title this thread. I have several ideas running through my head, and I just need to brainstorm for a few minutes.

Lately, I've felt myself losing focus on several things. I'm still reading my CJB nearly every day, and trying to honor Shabbat as much as I can. I'm still working on improving and cleansing our diets, with much progress being made--DH and I are both losing weight, even though neither of us was seriously overweight to begin with, and both the girls are eating veggies better. :thumbsup: But I'm finding that I'm backing off from some other things. I still intend to celebrate the mo'edim as best I can, but I don't feel all fired up about it like I have been the past several months. And I don't feel a burning desire to attend a Messianic congregation or even to socialize with as many Messianics as I can find. Instead, I've been focusing on DH. He's still lagging behind on the spiritual growth, so I'm trying to meet him where he is. It's like I've come down from my high horse to hold his hand and walk with him for a while. I'm looking for ways to make him happy, and some of that means giving up some of the things that have been so important to me over the past several months of my spiritual growth spurt. It's not that I'm turning my back on Torah, not that at all! But I'm focusing more on the aspect of loving my husband than on things like tzitzit or festivals or whatever. There are some things that I think are very important that I'm keeping up with, and those tend to be things that DH doesn't have a problem with anyway. So I feel very comfortable that God is showing me I can continue with those while turning my focus back onto DH.

The focus should always be inward, your heart. It is good to see Yeshua is readjusting your heart passions accordingly. Many get caught up on the pagentry of the play and neglect the more important heart issues. I'm happy to see Yeshua turning your heart inward, to give what you have been blessed with to those who he most desires to receive it, YOUR family.

So, all of that leads into some other questions. On the King David and Pesach thread, Shimshon discussed that perhaps David didn't celebrate Pesach b/c he was more focused on heart obedience, and he lived in a time when Pesach observance possibly would have been counterproductive. Is that basically your point? That detailed observance of the letter of the law was not as important as how David related to his people?
Not that it would have been 'counterproductive', but that it was by the will of YHVH that the kingdom became in the condition it did. David surely knew the prophecies in the Torah and the Nevi'im about the falling away of the children. As debi remarked, His desire beyond all things was the glorification of YHVH to the most. To love YHVH above all things, and to build him a Temple here on earth. To 'perfect' his Torah. I just submit that David knew of this promise within Torah and knew that it was the will of YHVH that the kingdom had been infiltrated by those who did not have Torah inside, even if, or when, they wore it on the outside. Hence he left the Temple and his palace to the enemy, his son Avshalom. Better to let YHVH have his way and the city remain, than to stand your ground in Torah obedience and have it be leveled by civil war. LOVE, of the will of YHVH and of your enemy. And while in the wilderness outside the camp, unable to do the Torah of Moshe, he ate the bread of presence!!! Given to him, by the Levi'im!!! :confused: How could the man who housed a heart JUST LIKE YHVH do such a thing?! Because his Abba loved him, and feed him from his own table. Even though the table set up was not to be touched by the king. But the Levi'im. Does YHVH go against his own Torah? Never.

To me, that's kind of similar to what I'm experiencing. It's not so important that I observe Shabbat perfectly, as it is that I use the opportunity to make Shabbat a blessing for those around me. For example, a few weeks ago, DH was actually home on Shabbat, rather than having to work overtime. Usually, I stay home with the girls on Shabbat, and we don't go anywhere but rather spend most of our free time playing together. But that week, I really wanted DH to experience the specialness of Shabbat, to have a day to remember, a day that catered to his interests. So we went on a fishing trip to a stocked pond. True, we did have to pay money to the owners of the pond, so that was commerce, which I normally try to avoid on Shabbat. But we had such an amazing time together! DH really, really enjoyed the day, with all the time we had together doing something a little different; we made some great memories. I took several pictures, which we've had fun printing out in b&w and framing (see my avatar!). So, even though it wasn't perfect obedience of the written law for Shabbat (no commerce), it was obedience to the heart of the law, where I, as the wife, focused on making the day an enjoyable blessing for my family, especially my husband. Jill, as far as I can tell you were in PERFECT obedience to the will of YHVH. Your heart desire was aligned with his, the giving of unconditional love to your own. Legalism has a way of saping this right out of you.

So here's where I'm kinda confused. If I should sacrifice strict obedience to the letter for the sake of my husband, should I also sacrifice strict adherence for the sake of others around me, like Jews? Recently, a Jewish woman joined our playgroup. She's pretty observant, and was raised being observant. I haven't had much opportunity to talk with her yet, but yesterday at the library during Story Hour, I overheard her talking with a friend about her Pesach seder. I didn't join into the conversation, b/c I didn't want to make a big deal about the fact I had celebrated a month ago, according to the Abib calendar. I feel in my heart that the Abib calendar is more true to the letter of Torah, but does that miss the intent of fellowship and loving those around me? Wouldn't it have been a really neat opportunity to share with this woman, if I was going by the rabbinical calendar instead? Maybe I should do both? (have my cake and eat it, too! :yum: ;) ) I really don't know. I can't fathom taking on so many of the rabbinic laws, like the meat and dairy issue. But I so want to be able to relate with Jews where they are, rather than taking the risk of appearing to have some kind of superiority complex, a "better than thou" attitude of any kind. It's not my desire to purposely do things wrong, but it's also not my desire to alienate everyone around me just for the sake of "doing it RIGHT." Yk? It's not my responsibility to FIX everyone around me. But it IS my responsibility to fellowship, support, witness, and not be a stumbling block.

Before this lady joined our group, I was so sure that I should do things so independently, the way I read them in Torah and who cares what everyone else thinks. But now, I feel a sense of responsibility in the way I handle their traditions, the extent to which I incorporate rabbinical laws. I don't think the rabbis today have the authority that they attribute to themselves, but since other people do, should I submit as one who is free? In order to fellowship and witness? With a heart of love and desire to gain their trust and respect?

:thumbsup: perfect

At times like this, I start hoping that Yeshua will return soon, so we can all obey Torah the way it was meant to be obeyed! But then, I start to think of all the trials our world will face just before His coming, and I realize how much more preparation I have to do, especially in preparing my daughters for whatever may come. Oh, Father, help us through! Give us Your guidance, make clear your Will for us! Don't let my selfishness or any of the voices in my head get in the way of Your instructions for me! Open my eyes that I may behold wonderous things out of your Torah......Jill, your not far at all!!!! Baruch HaShem Yeshua!!

Jill, your not bound by the Torah of Moshe, your free from it, as are the Jews who were given it. Even they did not understand it. And now seek to impose this misunderstanding upon the world. "All day long you blaspheme YHVH" by doing the works without the heart intent. Forever seeing, having sacrifices forever infront of him but never understanding. This is the veil of the Torah, a veil placed upon her by YHVH himself. So they could not see it's passing glory, it's fading glory. For if they did, they would see Yeshua, the hope of all Glory, and make teshuvah. But this is not the will of Adonai that only 'some' might be saved (Jews). But it is his will that ALL Yisrael be saved. Yehuda, Ephraim, Yisrael, and the Goyim as well, Esav, Yishmael, all who are thristy, all who have breath, come to the fountian of living water!!!! Not come into the Temple I built for the Jews in their time. But the Spirit and the Bride say COME!!! Into the presence of the Heavenly Tabernacle. Where the heart of YHVH resides.

And HalleluYah, YHVH has rent the heavens and came down a first time to place the Temple in our inward beings. Our hearts. The next time he rents the heavens and comes down will be to cleanse the earth, his footstool, in judgement and wrath. All who know him will be with him, as we will be like him. All who don't.......you know the story....

By Grace
18th May 2005, 09:46 AM
While reading through your whole post Jill, this scripture kept popping into my head, Isaiah 58:12-14, so that is all I will offer, not my own opinion. :)

Okay, Z, point taken. Sometimes I need that reminder to focus on God's will, not everyone else's. But even God focuses on our will, sometimes.

I can see why some of the Jews of Yeshua's day had strayed so far. It's a very difficult job to balance the details against the big picture! Sometimes it's so much easier just to focus on one and forget about the other.

You could focus on just details, like:
How do I tie my tzitzit?
Can I do such-and-such on Shabbat?
What prayer should I say for this activity?
etc, etc

And all those things are important. But it's easy to get bogged down in that stuff, and miss the big picture:
Is my life a reminder to those around me of God's sovereignty?
What can I do any day to bless those around me, to "do good"?
Is my prayer life a reflection of my total dependence on God? And more than that, does my tongue always convey my devotion and dependence on God, not just in prayer?
Can the people around me FEEL the love that God has placed in my heart for them?

Then again, it's easy to focus on just "being nice" to everyone, and lose sight of the realities of God's laws--Yeshua wasn't always "nice". There are times when tough love requires that we remind people of what God actually says in the law, that we don't have the prerogative to go in and change it however we want or feel like doing.

I must confess something: sometimes I use this "love and submit to DH" as an excuse to do things that I want to do. In my head, I say, "Oh, DH would want me to do this, so even though it's Shabbat and I don't usually do commerce on Shabbat, I'll do it this time to make DH happy" when really, it wouldn't matter to him either way. It's just an excuse in my head. A way of "getting out" of the observance. And that's wrong. There are legitimate times when my understanding of what's required of me on Shabbat is in direct conflict with DH's desire of me, but not nearly as often as the excuses I use. And when it is legit, I feel that submission dictates that I give in to DH. But I have GOT to stop using that as an excuse to do my OWN things. :sorry:

I guess I'm just struggling to find that fine line in the middle. I want people to see my observances and be ENCOURAGED by it. I want them to see the joy that I find in resting on Shabbat, not the feeling of being trapped and restricted. What was it that Paul said about the things I want to do, I don't do... ;) There's a very narrow path here somewhere, and I'm having such a hard time finding it! I can see why Yeshua would talk about threading needles with something that wouldn't fit anyway. In some ways, it seems that being Jewish would be so much easier! Everyone expects them to be different. But when a Gentile tries to observe the law, it just seems awkward. People don't expect it, and don't know what to think or how to handle it. I don't know how to handle it, even though I thoroughly believe it's the right thing to do.

Well, here I go, riding that pendulum again...

Sephania
18th May 2005, 12:00 PM
:hug: I feel for you achoti.

debi b
18th May 2005, 12:32 PM
For every 10 gallons of scripture add 1 tablespoon of other people's thoughts (including your own) :)

Shimshon
18th May 2005, 12:38 PM
Well, here I go, riding that pendulum again...

This is the kneeding of the Ruach, the goading, the constant inner conviction to answer his call. It will keep you from settling in the dust. It will constantly press and try you, as if through the fire. It will form and mold you, by his very own hands. If you find your in a place of complacency, your more than likely sitting down on the path in the dust getting dirty. The Ruach is constantly moving through you, working His will. Our old natures fight against this constantly. It's like the rocks on the bottom of the stream, they are forever run over by the Water and it makes them fine and polished. No Water, and all you have is a jagged mountain gorge. You are not only a rock, you are a precious gemstone he is forming and carving out of his own hands, out of his own heart. Hang in there achoti.:groupray:

Ahavah
18th May 2005, 01:01 PM
For every 10 gallons of scripture add 1 tablespoon of other people's thoughts (including your own) :)That's a good one!:thumbsup:

debi b
18th May 2005, 01:12 PM
Ya know that can sound trite or like a platitude but in all honesty it really has been a benefit to me :D