The Third Temple

[PaladinGirl]

What do Jews and Messianic Jews believe about the Third Temple? :confused:

[mjterry87]

I maybe wrong, but I think Yeshua will be our 3rd Temple when he returns to Earth. And there will be not need for a physical building, because G-D will be here with us.

[Tishri1]

Two Jews Three Opinions^_^

I believe the third could be built in the next few years if other things begin to happen I know it is ready to be built and staffed with Levites and Cohanim and the constuction of the alter could be accomplished with in a month with no complications.

If that happens though and the morning and evening sacrifices begin again (could be on a Tishri 1) then I also see a stopping of those sacrifices within 3 years and 5 months (could be on an Adar 10) By the False Prophet and False Messiah and a statue (or two) put in the Temple (could be on a Nissan 10, of that year, what ever year that is?)

That Temple of course would have to be cleansed and rededicated 3 years and 7 months later (1335 days...could be ready on a Channukah, Kislev 25)

NAS Daniel 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!:clap:

[A_Pioneer]

The Temple of God must be in place before the coming of the Messiah, sacrifices will be offered and again stopped and the the man of sin is revealed, then Yeshua will return and rule there for 1000 years.
When the 1000 years ends then the new heaven and new earth with the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, John saw no Temple here and says God and Yeshua will be it's Temple.

[visionary]

The Temple of God must be in place before the coming of the Messiah, sacrifices will be offered and again stopped and the the man of sin is revealed, then Yeshua will return and rule there for 1000 years.
When the 1000 years ends then the new heaven and new earth with the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, John saw no Temple here and says God and Yeshua will be it's Temple.That about sums it up.

[talmidim]

That about sums it up.I agree except for the numbering thing. The Tabernacle was a replica of what is in heaven. That would make the "First" in heaven. The rest get's confusing if you listen to the numbering that man has devised.

[visionary]

I agree except for the numbering thing. The Tabernacle was a replica of what is in heaven. That would make the "First" in heaven. The rest get's confusing if you listen to the numbering that man has devised.Numbering needs work... but it is interesting..

I agree with the 7 year covenant... broken midway at the 3 and 1/2 year point.

The 1335 days I have yet to find from one feast to another. I would want to see the numbers again and which year did they work out that they were exactly 1335 days apart.

[talmidim]

Numbering needs work... but it is interesting..

I agree with the 7 year covenant... broken midway at the 3 and 1/2 year point.

The 1335 days I have yet to find from one feast to another. I would want to see the numbers again and which year did they work out that they were exactly 1335 days apart.I assume you took a "leap" year into consideration? You know, one where the barley was not "Aviv"?

[Stormy]

The Temple of God must be in place before the coming of the Messiah, sacrifices will be offered and again stopped and the the man of sin is revealed, then Yeshua will return and rule there for 1000 years.
When the 1000 years ends then the new heaven and new earth with the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven, John saw no Temple here and says God and Yeshua will be it's Temple.

I do not understand why sacrifices would be offered. Jesus was the only acceptable sacrifice. Don't you think it would be an abomination to offer a lesser sacrifice after God provided the lamb?

Don't you agree that it is done.

[Tishri1]

Numbering needs work... but it is interesting..

I agree with the 7 year covenant... broken midway at the 3 and 1/2 year point.

The 1335 days I have yet to find from one feast to another. I would want to see the numbers again and which year did they work out that they were exactly 1335 days apart.start at Nissan 10 count forward 1335 days and you should be at Chanukkah (use a 30 day month though ask me why if need to) This would be the total number of days the Temple is desecrated.

The Abomination of Desolation is set up for 1290 days (from Adar 10 near the halfway point to Tishri 10 3 1/2 years later when Yeshua returns)

you all know that this is just a fun past time for me though, we studied with Joseph Good last summer and he has hours and hours (and hours literally )of Video on Isaiah which was the foundation for our endtimes study back then, it's fun, extremely interesting, and not written in stone;)

[Tishri1]

I assume you took a "leap" year into consideration? You know, one where the barley was not "Aviv"? honestly we could have but I don't recall these are all very very good points guys:thumbsup:

[Tishri1]

I do not understand why sacrifices would be offered. Jesus was the only acceptable sacrifice. Don't you think it would be an abomination to offer a lesser sacrifice after God provided the lamb?

Don't you agree that it is done. I know that the False Messiah will bank on it that is one thing we can count on for sure. But not alot of people know this fact: Sacrifices never took away the sin, repentance always did and faith in G-d was the ticket for salvation and faith in the future kingdom with the Messiah as King did too, way back then. After Yeshua everything made sence to them more than we can even know, but did they stop sacrificing after his death? Did they say no we won't do that anymore thank you, not that I can see. And who said to look for the daily sacrifices to end and for the Abomination to be set up ? Yeshua. And what of Revelations where we see them being offered again? But you know I still know so little about the whole thing and can certainly stand with you on the side that says "not nessessary" as well as on the side that says " it's gonna happen" I just see it all as signs of the times;)

[ShirChadash]

If I may, I'd like to recommend you read this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8497458#post8497458


Y'shua was "slain before the foundations of the world were laid", we are told in Scripture. The temple sacrifices were never anything but a hearkening-back-to his already-accomplished death before time was created for us, and also they were a hearkening-forward-to the crucifixion here on earth which made his death "real" (to our understanding/our minds, I mean) in our right-here-and-now time.

Temple sacrifices continued for some 40 years after Y'shua's death, I believe it was, and he did not abolish them nor did they cease with his death -- and when they are reinstituted there will be nothing wrong with them, either. The *type* can continue even after the *real* has been manifest -- you believe this as well, or you wouldn't partake of communion which is a remembrance of the "real" sacrifice even though it is merely a calling-to-mind of that real and is itself merely a "type" (for those who do not know what I am referring to in the "real" vs "type" comments, what I mean to express is that there are many spiritual things, practices, ideas which teach a lesson about the *real thing* they are meant to convey information/teaching about... hope that makes sense).

So, in the same way that Christians celebrate communion, yet Y'shua's death already occurred long, long ago and Resurrection Day, yet Y'shua's resurrection alreasdy occurred long ago... and Messianics continue to celebrate Passover and Chanukkah. for example, yet the events those feasts commemorate occurred long, long ago even though we know that the Spiritual *REAL* was made full in Y'shua's coming 2000 years ago... AND Messianics also are able to celebrate the Fall Feasts knowing that the fullness of those feasts is in Y'shua and will be manifested in their completeness when Y'shua returns, so we are commemorating what will be as well as what has already been in celebrating those feasts...

in the same way, the resumption of the temple sacrifices is nothing more and nothing less than a calling-upon what was, what is, and what will be (no matter who does or does not recognize that, as man's perceptions or lack thereof do not alter the Truth of the Reality). G-d's Salvation to us is His Y'shua -- Y'shua saves... yesterday, today, tomorrow. He was, is and is to be our salvation, our relationship, our restored connection to G-d, our forgiveness.

[A_Pioneer]

I do not understand why sacrifices would be offered. Jesus was the only acceptable sacrifice. Don't you think it would be an abomination to offer a lesser sacrifice after God provided the lamb?

Don't you agree that it is done.Stormy, this is what it says in prophesy, scripture can't be broken, let's let Yeshua explain it to us. Okay?

[visionary]

Temple sacrifices continued for some 40 years after Y'shua's death, I believe it was, and he did not abolish them nor did they cease with his death -- and when they are reinstituted there will be nothing wrong with them, either. The *type* can continue even after the *real* has been manifest -- you believe this as well, or you wouldn't partake of communion which is a remembrance of the "real" sacrifice even though it is merely a calling-to-mind of that real and is itself merely a "type" (for those who do not know what I am referring to in the "real" vs "type" comments, what I mean to express is that there are many spiritual things, practices, ideas which teach a lesson about the *real thing* they are meant to convey information/teaching about... hope that makes sense). When Yeshua died and the vail was rent from top to bottom, to me that signified that it was over. Those who continued to sacrifice were without Yeshua for the sacrifice for sins.

Heb 7:27 one who does not have the daily necessity, like the other cohanim g'dolim, of offering up sacrifices first for their own sins and only then for those of the people; because he offered one sacrifice, once and for all, by offering up himself. This to me says... sacrifice is not longer needed as Yeshua did it once for all.Heb 10:12 But this one, after he had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, sat down at the right hand of God, This is "for all time". sacrifice.... in other words.... there is no need in bringing back the sacrifices not even in memorial. Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, The Lord forgives our sins seventy x seven... but there still no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.... because Yeshua has already sacrificed Himself for us.

[ShirChadash]

When Yeshua died and the vail was rent from top to bottom, to me that signified that it was over. Those who continued to sacrifice were without Yeshua for the sacrifice for sins.

Wow, I guess Paul (and other believers along with him?) was without Y'shua, then?

Acts 21:15-26 15 After these days we got ready and started R1295 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1295) on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the R1296 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1296) disciples from Caesarea R1297 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1297) also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, R1298 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1298) a disciple R1299 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1299) of long standing with whom we were to lodge. 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the R1300 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1300) brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, R1301 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1301) F478 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F478) and all the R1302 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1302) elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began R1303 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1303) to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. R1304 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1304) 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying R1305 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1305) God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands F479 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F479) there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous R1306 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1306) for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching R1307 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1307) all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not R1308 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1308) to circumcise their children nor to walk F480 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F480) according to the R1309 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1309) customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are R1310 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1310) F481 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F481) under a vow; 24 take them and purify R1311 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1311) yourself along with them, and pay F482 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F482) their expenses so that they may shave R1312 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1312) their heads; F483 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F483) and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having R1313 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1313) decided that they should abstain from meat F484 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F484) sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took F485 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F485) the men, and the next day, purifying R1314 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1314) himself along with them, went R1315 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1315) into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

(NASB)

Unless the above is speaking of an entirely different sacrifice that involved no bloodshed (which... I don't know at this point... :scratch: ) that tells me that it is more than a stretch to say that those who went to temple to sacrifice/have sacrifices offered on their behalf after Y'shua, simply didn't HAVE Y'shua. (and even if this WERE a "sacrifice" that didn't include any bloodshed, well hey, if there remains no sacrifice... and no sacrifice for forgiveness of sin/purification/etc... well... a sacrifice is a sacrifice, bloody or otherwise, if you make such a blanket-statement as "those who continued to sacrifice were without Y'shua as their sacrifice...".)


This to me says... sacrifice is not longer needed as Yeshua did it once for all. Yes, and Y'shua did it before the foundations of the world were even lain. And considering this is the case -- perhaps we could say there was no "need" for man to ever kill an animal in sacrifice in the first place? And there must be no need for us to retell a Passover Haggadah, because Pesach happened, it's over, and hey why not move along already? ;) And no need to remember Resurrection Day ("Easter" or not) and no need for "Communion", etc.

This is "for all time". sacrifice.... in other words.... there is no need in bringing back the sacrifices not even in memorial. :) see above...

The Lord forgives our sins seventy x seven... but there still no longer remains a sacrifice for sins.... because Yeshua has already sacrificed Himself for us. Again, see above. Yep, He gave Himself before the foundations of the world were lain/spoken into existence. And no, it won't be an abomination to G-d when sacrifices are offered again the temple, as far as I am able to see; after all... it wasn't Messiah who put a stop to sacrifices -- according to the Word it will be ANTIMessiah who puts a stop to sacrifices, so what does that say about how G-d feels about there being no "need" for a reminder of His work for the people? Hey I suppose He might feel the same way about it as He feels about the idea that the 7th-Biblical-Day SABBATH is no longer valid or needed as a reminder of His work. ;) :eek:

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

What do Jews and Messianic Jews believe about the Third Temple? :confused:

I believe the Temple will be built and sacrifices will be done. Just remember that when they went to the Temple they shared the sacrifices with the Priests which both ate of. It isn't like here is the lamb, sacrifice it and throw away the meat. Yes, some of it is burnt up, like the fat and other parts.

Here is some news from a site I have just started getting email news from in Israel:

Reestablished Sanhedrin Convenes to Discuss Temple (http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76624)

Shalom,

Tag

[talmidim]

...and a great earthquake splits the Mountain into a great river valley. A mighty river that flows from the right side of the altar? Uh... Do ya think the Temple will survive THAT ONE? No wonder it has to be rebuilt by Yeshua. Hmmm... Just my musings...


...and what number Temple is that?

[Tishri1]

I believe the Temple will be built and sacrifices will be done. Just remember that when they went to the Temple they shared the sacrifices with the Priests which both ate of. It isn't like here is the lamb, sacrifice it and throw away the meat. Yes, some of it is burnt up, like the fat and other parts.

Here is some news from a site I have just started getting email news from in Israel:

Reestablished Sanhedrin Convenes to Discuss Temple (http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=76624)

Shalom,

Tag The Sanhedrin heard expert testimony on the various opinions as to the exact part of the Temple Mount upon which the Holy Temple stood.

Joseph Good is one of these guys who has spent a decade researching everything including archieology, Jewish writtings, Torah, oh more than I certainly list and has been working side -by side with Rabbi Chaim Richman from the Temple Institute and a member of the Sanhedren to make these discoveries known to them right now. That's where I have recieved what knowlege I have which is Huge to me but small compared to what these men have discovered and are unraveling daily now. Joe said it use to be 1 new discovery a month would thrill them...now they are comming so fast that they cant even document 1 before another pops up!

[yod]

The next Temple is the anti-christ Temple. It will cause horrific suffering for the jewish people before Yeshua split the Mount of Olives.

That's all I need to know.

If Israel wants to build it that is their business....but the sin of Judas Iscariot was to "force" God's hand.

[visionary]

Wow, I guess Paul (and other believers along with him?) was without Y'shua, then?

Acts 21:15-26 15 After these days we got ready and started R1295 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1295) on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the R1296 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1296) disciples from Caesarea R1297 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1297) also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, R1298 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1298) a disciple R1299 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1299) of long standing with whom we were to lodge. 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the R1300 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1300) brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, R1301 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1301) F478 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F478) and all the R1302 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1302) elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began R1303 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1303) to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. R1304 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1304) 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying R1305 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1305) God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands F479 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F479) there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous R1306 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1306) for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching R1307 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1307) all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not R1308 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1308) to circumcise their children nor to walk F480 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F480) according to the R1309 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1309) customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are R1310 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1310) F481 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F481) under a vow; 24 take them and purify R1311 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1311) yourself along with them, and pay F482 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F482) their expenses so that they may shave R1312 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1312) their heads; F483 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F483) and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having R1313 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1313) decided that they should abstain from meat F484 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F484) sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took [size=1]F485 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#F485) the men, and the next day, purifying R1314 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1314) himself along with them, went R1315 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+21:26&version=nas&context=1&showtools=1#R1315) into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

(NASB)

[font=Verdana][color=Navy]Unless the above is speaking of an entirely different sacrifice that involved no bloodshed (which... I don't know at this point... :scratch: ) that tells me that it is more than a stretch to say that those who went to temple to sacrifice/have sacrifices offered on their behalf after Y'shua, simply didn't HAVE Y'shua. (and even if this WERE a "sacrifice" that didn't include any bloodshed, well hey, if there remains no sacrifice... and no sacrifice for forgiveness of sin/purification/etc... well... a sacrifice is a sacrifice, bloody or otherwise, if you make such a blanket-statement as "those who continued to sacrifice were without Y'shua as their sacrifice...".)[b][i]

Yes, and Y'shua did it before the foundations of the world were even lain. And considering this is the case -- perhaps we could say there was no "need" for man to ever kill an animal in sacrifice in the first place? And there must be no need for us to retell a Passover Haggadah, because Pesach happened, it's over, and hey why not move along already? ;) And no need to remember Resurrection Day ("Easter" or not) and no need for "Communion", etc.

:) see above...

Again, see above. Yep, He gave Himself before the foundations of the world were lain/spoken into existence. And no, it won't be an abomination to G-d when sacrifices are offered again the temple, as far as I am able to see; after all... it wasn't Messiah who put a stop to sacrifices -- according to the Word it will be ANTIMessiah who puts a stop to sacrifices, so what does that say about how G-d feels about there being no "need" for a reminder of His work for the people? Hey I suppose He might feel the same way about it as He feels about the idea that the 7th-Biblical-Day SABBATH is no longer valid or needed as a reminder of His work. ;) :eek:Yeshua's sacrifice is for sin, not purification which Paul was doing. I am not clear on the variety of sacrifices nor claim to be. I just wanted to point out that the sin sacrifice was taken care of by Yeshua.

Now on the subject of the antiMessiah and his efforts to stop the daily sacrifices... now there is a whole nother subject....I have my theories about that too.

[ShirChadash]

I have heard this was a Nazirite vow spoken of in Acts 21:15-26, and it certainly seems that is the case...

Here is the Torah portion pertaining to the laws concerning the Nazirite, and the sacrifices and offerings (and their nature) which must be brought in order for a Nazirite to complete his time of vow, and be released from his vow, culminating in the shaving of his head as a sign that the duration and terms of the vow were completely met.

Numbers 6:1 Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special F75 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F75) vow, the vow of a R142 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R142) Nazirite, F76 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F76) to dedicate F77 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F77) himself to the LORD, 3 he shall abstain R143 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R143) from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 4 'All the days of his separation F78 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F78) he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from {the} seeds even to {the} skin. 5 'All the days of his vow of separation no R144 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R144) razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. 6 ' R145 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R145) All the days of his separation to the LORD he shall not go near to a dead person. 7 'He shall R146 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R146) not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. 8 'All the days of his separation he is holy to the LORD. 9 'But if a man dies very suddenly beside him and he defiles his dedicated head {of hair,} then he R147 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R147) shall shave his head on the day when he becomes clean; he R148 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R148) shall shave it on the seventh day. 10 'Then on the eighth day he shall bring two R149 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R149) turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 11 'The priest shall offer one R150 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R150) for a sin offering and {the} other for a burnt offering, and make atonement for him concerning F79 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F79) his sin because of the {dead} person. And that same day he shall consecrate his head, 12 and shall dedicate to the LORD his days as F80 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F80) a Nazirite, F81 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F81) and shall bring a male lamb a year old for a guilt offering; but the former days will be void because his separation was defiled.

13 'Now this is the law of the Nazirite when R151 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R151) the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the F82 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F82) offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 'He shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb R152 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R152) a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15 and a basket of unleavened R153 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R153) cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their R154 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R154) grain offering and their drink offering. 16 'Then the priest shall present {them} before the LORD and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. 17 'He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 ' R155 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R155) The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head {of hair} at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put {it} on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings. 19 ' R156 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R156) The priest shall take the ram's shoulder {when it has been} boiled, and one unleavened cake out of the basket and one unleavened wafer, and shall put {them} on the hands F83 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F83) of the Nazirite after he has shaved his dedicated F84 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F84) {hair.} 20 'Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up; and afterward R157 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R157) the Nazirite may drink wine.' 21 "This is the law of the Nazirite who vows his offering to the LORD according to his separation, in addition to what {else} he F85 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F85) can afford; according to his vow which he takes, so he shall do according to the law of his separation."

I have a very hard time believing that any Temple priest would have accepted a partial sacrifice and offering from Paul and these men, and that the men would have been allowed to completely finish their vows according to some new-fangled idea that they didn't have to bring any sin sacrifice/offering because Y'shua died and now they didn't have to/shouldn't bring any more sacrifices after that. And I highly doubt those men, seeking to complete a vow they made before G-d according to Torah, would set aside Torah in the first place in the fulfillment of that vow in favor of requesting that they be exempt from following the Torah that sets out the requirements of that vow's fulfillment... on and on... you catch my drift? It's not plausible to assert so, IMHO.

However, the case most certainly IS that the *type* continues in light of the *real*. So yes, Y'shua was the sin offering -- and as I said, Y'shua was the sin offering before there was ever sin and before the foundations of the earth were lain. He was, is and will be, and no other sacrifice has ever been the efficacious offering alone but rather was, and will be, a hearkening-forward-to and a hearkening-back-to Y'shua's work which effects our salvation.

[visionary]

good point....worthy of deeper study

[A_Pioneer]

deleted as incomplete,

[A_Pioneer]

Some learned person needs to show me in any part of any Bible, "The Temple of the Anti-Christ." I've never read that passage.

Dan.9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
Da.11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Da.12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

Yes, the abomination that maketh desolate, will occupy the "Holy Place" but it is the Temple of God.

[visionary]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way. For the Day will not come until after the Apostasy has come and the man who separates himself from Torah has been revealed, the one destined for doom. 4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouthd and destroy by the glory of his coming. 9 When this man who avoids Torah comes, the Adversary will give him the power to work all kinds of false miracles, signs and wonders. 10 He will enable him to deceive, in all kinds of wicked ways, those who are headed for destruction because they would not receive the love of the truth that could have saved them. 11 This is why God is causing them to go astray, so that they will believe the Lie. 12 The result will be that all who have not believed the truth, but have taken their pleasure in wickedness, will be condemned. Yep that is what I read too.... He had invaded the Temple of God.... as a god.

[ShirChadash]

I did a word study on this yesterday -- interestingly, the same exact word used for offering in this particular verse of scripture (which Strong's biasedly claimed is a bloodless offering) is the same word used to describe Y'shua's exact offering/sacrifice in other verses. I haven't time to get into it all right now and will re-check, but that is one thing that struck me yesterday. And no -- Torah is very clear all that is required of one to complete the nazirite vow, and BOTH offerings AND blood-sacrifices were included and required, and Paul paid for all of them to be offered/sacrificed. The Christian concept of "communion" has not one thing to do with the Nazirite sacrifices -- the bloody or bloodless "offerings" in regard to it, either way.

Please read the scripture regarding it:

Numbers 6:1 Again the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man or woman makes a special F75 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F75) vow, the vow of a R142 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R142) Nazirite, F76 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F76) to dedicate F77 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F77) himself to the LORD, 3 he shall abstain R143 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R143) from wine and strong drink; he shall drink no vinegar, whether made from wine or strong drink, nor shall he drink any grape juice nor eat fresh or dried grapes. 4 'All the days of his separation F78 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F78) he shall not eat anything that is produced by the grape vine, from {the} seeds even to {the} skin. 5 'All the days of his vow of separation no R144 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R144) razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD; he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long. 6 ' R145 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R145) All the days of his separation to the LORD he shall not go near to a dead person. 7 'He shall R146 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R146) not make himself unclean for his father or for his mother, for his brother or for his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. 8 'All the days of his separation he is holy to the LORD. 9 'But if a man dies very suddenly beside him and he defiles his dedicated head {of hair,} then he R147 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R147) shall shave his head on the day when he becomes clean; he R148 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R148) shall shave it on the seventh day. 10 'Then on the eighth day he shall bring two R149 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R149) turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 11 'The priest shall offer one R150 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R150) for a sin offering and {the} other for a burnt offering, and make atonement for him concerning F79 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F79) his sin because of the {dead} person. And that same day he shall consecrate his head, 12 and shall dedicate to the LORD his days as F80 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F80) a Nazirite, F81 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F81) and shall bring a male lamb a year old for a guilt offering; but the former days will be void because his separation was defiled.

13 'Now this is the law of the Nazirite when R151 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R151) the days of his separation are fulfilled, he shall bring the F82 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F82) offering to the doorway of the tent of meeting. 14 'He shall present his offering to the LORD: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb R152 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R152) a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering, 15 and a basket of unleavened R153 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R153) cakes of fine flour mixed with oil and unleavened wafers spread with oil, along with their R154 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R154) grain offering and their drink offering. 16 'Then the priest shall present {them} before the LORD and shall offer his sin offering and his burnt offering. 17 'He shall also offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, together with the basket of unleavened cakes; the priest shall likewise offer its grain offering and its drink offering. 18 ' R155 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R155) The Nazirite shall then shave his dedicated head {of hair} at the doorway of the tent of meeting, and take the dedicated hair of his head and put {it} on the fire which is under the sacrifice of peace offerings. 19 ' R156 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R156) The priest shall take the ram's shoulder {when it has been} boiled, and one unleavened cake out of the basket and one unleavened wafer, and shall put {them} on the hands F83 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F83) of the Nazirite after he has shaved his dedicated F84 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F84)20 'Then the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD. It is holy for the priest, together with the breast offered by waving and the thigh offered by lifting up; and afterward R157 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#R157) the Nazirite may drink wine.' 21 "This is the law of the Nazirite who vows his offering to the LORD according to his separation, in addition to what {else} he F85 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Numbers+6&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=nu&NavGo=6&NavCurrentChapter=6#F85) can afford; according to his vow which he takes, so he shall do according to the law of his separation." {hair.}

[ShirChadash]

4376 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK43.htm#S4376)

prosfora
prosphora

prosforan
Eph 5:2 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B49C005.htm#V2), Heb 10:5 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B58C010.htm#V5), Heb 10:8 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B58C010.htm#V8)

prosforaV
Acts 24:17 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B44C024.htm#V17), Heb 10:10 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B58C010.htm#V10)

prosfora
Acts 21:26 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B44C021.htm#V26), Rom 15:16 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B45C015.htm#V16), Heb 10:14 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B58C010.htm#V14), Heb 10:18 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B58C010.htm#V18)



4376 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/CONGRK437.htm#S4376)

prosfora
prosphora
pros-for-ah'

from prosferw - prosphero 4374 (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK43.htm#S4374); presentation; concretely, an oblation (bloodless) or sacrifice:--offering (up).

(the Greek istranslating rather than showing in GK in the preview, and I am not sure how to make it do so, my apologies.)

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;


Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].


Please note, the following are the exact word use of prosfora :


*Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

*Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

*Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

*Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these no more offering for sin.


Now, it's one way or the other. Either Prosphora may include (and be understood to be) a bloody sacrifice, or it may not. If it is used to describe Y'shua's atoning sacrifice/death, it must be referring to a bloody sacrifice and it is not remotely unreasonable to assume it refers elsewhere also to a bloody sacrifice, especially in consideration that G-d's Torah Instruction calls for it, demands it and requires it as an integral part of completing the Nazirite vow, which is what the men were completing their days of, and seeking to fulfill in going to the temple in the first place. There is simply NO way that either normative Judaism, or Messianic Judaism of that day, would have allowed these men to "complete" and fulfill their vow before G-d in such a way as to neglect, circumvent or otherwise consider null the ACTIONS required by man in order to do so. Sacrifice calls upon Y'shua's Work of Salvation/atonement.

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[i]Acts 21:15 After these days we got ready and started R1295 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1295) on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the R1296 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1296) disciples from Caesarea R1297 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1297) also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, R1298 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1298) a disciple R1299 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1299) of long standing with whom we were to lodge. 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the R1300 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1300) brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, R1301 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1301) F478 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F478) and all the R1302 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1302) elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began R1303 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1303) to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. R1304 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1304) 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying R1305 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1305) God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands F479 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F479) there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous R1306 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1306) for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching R1307 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1307) all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not R1308 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1308) to circumcise their children nor to walk F480 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F480) according to the R1309 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1309) customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are R1310 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1310) F481 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F481) under a vow; 24 take them and purify R1311 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1311) yourself along with them, and pay F482 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F482) their expenses so that they may shave R1312 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1312)F483 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F483) and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. their heads; 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having R1313 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1313) decided that they should abstain from meat F484 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F484) sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took F485 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F485) the men, and the next day, purifying R1314 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1314) himself along with them, went R1315 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1315) into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

If it were abominable to G-d, I highly doubt Paul would have taken this opportunity to exercise his continuing Torah-commitment and obedience, an exercise which the Torah-zealous Messianic Jews witnesses for themselves in affirmation that Paul was no less an observant JEW than before he went out among the gentiles. He went to cleanse himself in the mikvah pool with these other men -- as was, I am sure, a requirement of going to Temple in the first place -- and then also PAID himself the very stiff price of arranging for them to complete their vows and to have SACRIFICES and offerings offerings made in each of their behalf in accordance with the Torah instructions G-d gave for completing the Nazirite vow...

And Paul did... publicly... allowing it to also be (as was suggested to him) a confirmation of the fact that he was still a committed, observant Jew who preached Torah/Y'shua/The Word of G-d and also allowed spiritual babes (gentiles who previously knew little-to-nothing of the Faith of Y'shua -- Judaism) to be babes in their walk of faith.

[Shimshon]

and also allowed spiritual babes (gentiles who previously knew little-to-nothing of the Faith of Y'shua -- Judaism) to be babes in their walk of faith.
The men he went to the Temple with to observe these things were NOT the goyim, he clarified a very clear 'distinction' between their observance and his. It was not the goyim the kehillah in Yerushalayim wanted to see being 'Torah observant', it was Shaul. It was he who they heard was teaching things like Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. I do believe the last thing 'they' would have wanted was to see goyim trying to act 'Jewish'. Or else they would be streaming them into the Temple. No it was Shaul who the Kehillah wanted to 'prove' his 'walk of faith'.

And he did, just like Yeshua. Was it an abomination for Yeshua to 'walk and live in the shadow of death, of things to come'? Heaven forbid. Shaul 'observed' this ritual because for one, he was Yehudi, the Temple was still standing, Yisrael has not yet been cast to the goyim, the nations. He was one of the FIRSTfruits of Yeshua who actually 'observed' the shadow in Truth and Spirit. This is no longer possible because the promise to destroy the vineyard and scatter the workers has been fulfilled. The watchtower that stood in the middle of the garden is left abandoned. Yet, people still pray to it.
an exercise which the Torah-zealous Messianic Jews witnesses for themselves in affirmation that Paul was no less an observant JEW than before he went out among the gentiles.

Before he went he was a blood thirsty parush observing Torah to the T, physically. He then tells us he left Yerushalayim and the battle against the talmid of Yeshua to join them, and that he didn't return for 3 then 14 yrs. How in your imagination do you see him being just as 'observant' a jew than before, when by his own account did not 'SACRIFICE' at the Temple or do ANY 'observance' that would require such a presence, for 14yrs? He does this one act of servitude, because he can, and it goes along with his MO. "Become like those who you are trying to reach, outside of sinning against YHVH" He did not want to cause his brothers to stumble, so he did what he could. He could do the observances that he did, and show that he did not 'FORSAKE' the Torah. By doing so he could maybe then reach 'HIS OWN BROTHERS'. That they might not fall into the sin of 'legalism'.

[ShirChadash]

The men he went to the Temple with to observe these things were NOT the goyim, he clarified a very clear 'distinction' between their observance and his. Uhm, no, I wasn't referring to the men who were completing their vow as being gentiles -- I was actually referring to the portion of the passage that explains what caused the Jewish brethren to question Paul's committment to Torah in the first place -- that he was teaching that the gentiles only needed to adhere to the four aspects of Torah-obedience in order to keep close-fellowship and learn Torah among the Jews as brethren in the Lord -- and that they had "heard" that he encouraged Torah-disobedience among the Jewish brethren as well:

21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching R1307 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1307) all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not R1308 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1308) to circumcise their children nor to walk F480 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F480) according to the R1309 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1309) customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are R1310 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1310) F481 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F481) under a vow; 24 take them and purify R1311 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1311) yourself along with them, and pay F482 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F482) their expenses so that they may shave R1312 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1312)F483 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F483) and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. their heads; 25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having R1313 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1313) decided that they should abstain from meat F484 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F484) sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

AND I was trying to essenitally make the point that Paul could teach such things re:the gentiles -- allowing them to be "babes' in the faith and taking them where they are at, just as G-d does -- babes in the faith that G-d handed down (Judaism) and having LITTLE TO NO KNOWLEDGE of Judaism (uhm, why would you think that I was saying the men completing the Nazirite vow were gentiles, considering I was also stating they knew little or nothign of Judaism in the first place -- and it would be more than highly unlikely they'd have been Nazirites in such case :scratch: ) and STILL be a committed and observant Jew himself.

It was not the goyim the kehillah in Yerushalayim wanted to see being 'Torah observant' I never said it was, or at least never thought it was and never intended to remotely convey such a thing, and I am not sure where you got the idea I had said so, but for any misunderstanding I regret.

it was Shaul. It was he who they heard was teaching things like Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews. Indeed.

I do believe the last thing 'they' would have wanted was to see goyim trying to act 'Jewish'. Or else they would be streaming them into the Temple. No it was Shaul who the Kehillah wanted to 'prove' his 'walk of faith'. I said not one thing regarding gentiles "trying to act Jewish". You have misunderstood my words and intention if you think I did, and perhaps you could re-read my comments to understand better if that is the case.

[Shimshon]

(uhm, why would you think that I was saying the men completing the Nazirite vow were gentiles, considering I was also stating they knew little or nothign of Judaism in the first place -- and it would be more than highly unlikely they'd have been Nazirites in such case :scratch: ) Misunderstanding. I was not refering to those taking the vow as goyim. We agree on this. They were not, they were yehudi.

AND I was trying to essenitally make the point that Paul could teach such things re:the gentiles -- allowing them to be "babes' in the faith and taking them where they are at, just as G-d does -- babes in the faith that G-d handed down (Judaism) and having LITTLE TO NO KNOWLEDGE of Judaism

This is what i'm talking about. Your saying that those who are babies would eventuall become "Jewish", observing all Torah "of Moshe", as those "Torah-zealous" Jews in Yerushalyim that Shaul was appeasing, for the sake of love?

If I read you right your saying that Shaul was a commited Jew observing all Torah flawlessly and he was teaching the goyim that though they were only given the 4 to live by they would soon be able to mature into full blown Torah observance "Moshe" style?


I never said it was, or at least never thought it was and never intended to remotely convey such a thing, and I am not sure where you got the idea I had said so, but for any misunderstanding I regret.

As do I, I am only trying to communicate with you Zemirah, nothing more :) even if we disagree.


I said not one thing regarding gentiles "trying to act Jewish". You have misunderstood my words and intention if you think I did, and perhaps you could re-read my comments to understand better if that is the case.

Have I clarified myself at all? Are you not saying the 'babies' will grow into full Torah observance like Shaul and those in Yerushalayim at that time? But now they are just babies given milk (4 mitzvot)? And Shaul was as Torah observant a Jew as he was before he began to witness Yeshua's testimony? Is this not what you were saying?

[ShirChadash]

How in your imagination do you see him being just as 'observant' a jew than before, when by his own account did not 'SACRIFICE' at the Temple or do ANY 'observance' that would require such a presence, for 14yrs? Where did I claim that "somewhere in my imagination" (as ridiculous and uncredible as you must presume it to be :holy: I imagine) I thought that Paul had been/was being "JUST AS 'observant' a jew" (YOUR PHRASE not mine, a phrase which indicates a level of activity, as much or more than a level of spiritual foundational-solidity and heart-commitment, IMHO, and again -- your phrase, not mine, I never said that) as he was before he *took the gospel specifically to the goyim as much or more often than the Jewish brethren* (which is what *I* meant when I said "went out among the gentiles")? My point was not speaking to the oftenness with which he found himself able and willing to travel to Jerusalem to sacrifice and partake of the "activities" of expressing his Jewish Messianic faith (I think he had far more pressing things on his mind and heart ;) and a wee bit of a calling to other behaviors/actions at the time, personally).


He does this one act of servitude, because he can, and it goes along with his MO. "Become like those who you are trying to reach, outside of sinning against YHVH" He did not want to cause his brothers to stumble, so he did what he could. forgive me for pointing this out, but he already WAS LIKE THOSE HE WAS TRYING TO REACH (make a point to, convey a message to) in this case. Observe again what the scriptures say about who is involved here in this particular account, questioning and scrutinizing Paul:

Acts 21:15 After these days we got ready and started R1295 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1295) on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the R1296 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1296) disciples from Caesarea R1297 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1297) also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, R1298 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1298) a disciple R1299 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1299) of long standing with whom we were to lodge. 17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the R1300 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1300) brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to James, R1301 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1301) F478 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F478) and all the R1302 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1302) elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began R1303 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1303) to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. R1304 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1304) 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying R1305 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1305) God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching R1307 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1307) all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not R1308 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1308) to circumcise their children nor to walk F480 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F480) according to the R1309 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1309) customs. 22 "What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 "Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are R1310 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1310) F481 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F481) under a vow; 24 take them and purify R1311 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1311) yourself along with them, and pay F482 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F482) their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having R1313 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1313) decided that they should abstain from meat F484 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F484) sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication." 26 Then Paul took F485 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#F485) the men, and the next day, purifying R1314 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1314) himself along with them, went R1315 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Acts+21&section=0&version=nas&new=1&oq=&NavBook=ac&NavGo=21&NavCurrentChapter=21#R1315) into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.


These were MESSIANIC Jewish Torah-zealous brethren being spoken of in the passage as having heard Paul was teaching the Jewish brethren not to be Torah-observant. By his actions"all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

If James and the other elders saw fit to say that Paul was still a keeper of the Law, then I suppose so can I. ;)

[Shimshon]

Zemirah, your battle is not with me. Try and remember that. Shalom

[ShirChadash]

This is what i'm talking about. Your saying that those who are babies would eventuall become "Jewish", observing all Torah "of Moshe", as those "Torah-zealous" Jews in Yerushalyim that Shaul was appeasing, for the sake of love?

If I read you right your saying that Shaul was a commited Jew observing all Torah flawlessly and he was teaching the goyim that though they were only given the 4 to live by they would soon be able to mature into full blown Torah observance "Moshe" style? No, you are once again not reading me rightly. Also, the goyim were indeed supposed to be learning Torah in the synagogues (and they were), but that is neither here nor there on this thread -- I am not concerned if you prefer your assumptions of what I am writing to the actual text :D and I am not willing to derail this discussion to get into this area with you, considering it was neither my point nor my assertion nor my intention to say that the gentiles would all go on to living Torah "Moshe-style".



As do I, I am only trying to communicate with you Zemirah, nothing more :) even if we disagree.
Yes, I see that in your agressive tone and comments like, "How in your imagination do you see him being just as 'observant' a jew than before" Which I never remotely implied, and which type of comments don't encourage me to want to "communicate" much further, frankly.


Have I clarified myself at all? Are you not saying the 'babies' will grow into full Torah observance like Shaul and those in Yerushalayim at that time? Not necessarily no -- what I was saying was exactly what I *DID* say, Shimshon -- that the gentiles needed to observe the four things in order to keep fellowship with the Jews and learn Torah -- and where else would they have learned the fullness of their faith in Y'shua (Who He is, WHY He is, etc.) and considering the Elders themselves expressed that in every city Moshe is preached in the synagogues and connected it to the decree that the gentiles must observe these four things at a minimum (four "laws" which, a Jew would sooner die than break and wouldn't have been willing to keep close fellowship with others who couldn't follow those at a minimum in order to be on close communion with others in the faith of Y'shua -- Messianic, and Judaism)...

But now they are just babies given milk (4 mitzvot)? uh, they were brand-new believers and gentiles not having learned much if any of Judaism -- and Y'shua is a Jewish Messiah, and frankly there's a whole lot about him that can be learned from the knowing of the foundation of Judaism (Yes, that's ALL I am asserting), I'd say that new believers are kinda "babes" in the faith, uhm... yeah. Wow, sorry if that conveys this huge MO behind my words and some unspoken agenda-like message to you.

And Shaul was as Torah observant a Jew as he was before he began to witness Yeshua's testimony? Is this not what you were saying? Oh geez. Read my posts -- did I *SAY* that? I am generally fairly able to communicate what I *AM* trying to say well enough that you can rest assured -- if I meant to say it, I would have, and if I mean to say something, Shimshon, I will. No need to read things into my words. Again -- if the elders were able to say of Paul that he was walking an orderly walk and "Keeping the Law", then I guess it shouldn't be a huge offense for me to assert that he was so. "Just as observant"? Again to me, this means just as actively practicing, etc., and it was your phrase -- NOT MINE. I never even remotely considered such an assertion, much less intended to make it.

[ShirChadash]

Zemirah, your battle is not with me. Try and remember that. Shalom

LOL! ^_^ *shrug*

:confused:

[Shimshon]

And in Shaul's own words, he says what he thinks of this situation, in Galatians

2 I went up in obedience to a revelation, and I explained to them the Good News as I proclaim it among the Gentiles - but privately, to the acknowledged leaders. I did this out of concern that my current or previous work might have been in vain. 3 But they didn't force my Gentile companion Titus to undergo b'rit-milah. 4 Indeed, the question came up only because some men who pretended to be brothers had been sneaked in - they came in surreptitiously to spy out the freedom we have in the Messiah Yeshua, so that they might enslave us. 5 Not even for a minute did we give in to them, so that the truth of the Good News might be preserved for you.

6 Moreover, those who were the acknowledged leaders-what they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by outward appearances - these leaders added nothing to me. He went because of a revealation to bring the Good News, TO THE ELDERS!!! Because some had snuck in and tried to enlaved them back under the bondage of LEGALISM. He NEVER ONCE gave into them, and said that the Elders didn't add anything to his witness either. Yeshua stands ALONE. UNtwisted with anything. TRUE to his Word. That never changes, from the begining.

[ShirChadash]

And in Shaul's own words, he says what he thinks of this situation, in Galatians

He went because of a revealation to bring the Good News, TO THE ELDERS!!! Because some had snuck in and tryed to enlaved them back under the bondage of LEGALISM. He NEVER ONCE gave into them, and said that the Elderrs didn't add anything to his witness either. Yeshua stands ALONE. UNtwisted with anything. TRUE to his Word. That never changes, from the begining.

*shrug* I am sorry -- I am not sure why you took this thread off on a rabbit trail about this, but I am certainly not arguing the things you assumed I was :scratch: :sorry: "Babes inthe faith" will surely grow (praise G-d) into the fullness of the faith -- whatever that entails for them PERSONALLY I wasn't suggesting all or even ANY would grow to full Torah-obedience "Moshe style", although most certainly for some it would surely have been so -- and I can assure you the thought and issue simply never arose for me when writing these posts -- nor do I understand why you are choosing to grill me on it and make it an issue on this thread. :confused:

[Shimshon]

Yafet, is that you?;)

[ShirChadash]

What are you talking about?

:scratch:

Okay, this thread has taken a very strange turn since Shimshon decided I was saying things I didn't and meaning things I wasn't LOL, so I will just bow out now and say that I have said my piece.

:wave:

[Tishri1]

I have always thought that the contention arises when one is Torah Observant in order to GAIN SALVATION and that was Paul's beef was to fight against THOSE who were pushing that falsehood in gentile's face.

I never thought for a moment that Paul was nullifying Torah Observance as a way to live.:scratch:

When we live set apart and distinct lives from the world we don't EARN a thing, we do this out of our love and devotion to the one ABBA who called us to be set apart and distinct children to Him.

And if we never did a thing but love him, out of lack of knowlege or ability; we would still be distinct because of our love:clap:!

Because of our knowlege and ability this love of ours is expressed thru a walk that follows ABBA's words of Torah we can read from our very hearts!

[ShirChadash]

Okay, one more post to say... I agree with you, Tishri. :)

[Shimshon]

Zemirah, if I have offended you, I am sorry. If I have seemed 'aggressive' to you, I am sorry. If I you see me as intrerupting this thread, I am sorry. If I have misunderstood you, I am sorry. If I have been misunderstood by you , I forgive you. Shalom

[ShirChadash]

:o

Well, I don't think any of the above (well, except the "aggressive" part -- ehn, yeah, your one statement was pretty aggressive LOL) :D but... this got weird and in a hurry -- frankly, I didn't need to be advised to remember that my battle is not with you (still :confused: here), but I was most surely beginning to wonder if I should advise you to remember the same regarding me, for some odd reason of which I am not aware.

And yes, I do think the topic was derailed...

Okay, so back to the OP?