Dragons

[Ahavah]

Do you believe in Dragons? (not the comodo dragon either, but the ones that breathe fire.);) Did you know that in the book of Job, he talks about a fire breathing monster? Hmmm....

[visionary]

Myths have their truths now hidden because we were not of that generation that lived to see fire breathing monsters that Job did.

[Bon]

Were there dinosaurs on the ark?
Perhaps babies.....to take up less room.

What happened to them?
Perhaps they didn't grow as big after the flood as they did before. (because of the atmospheric changes and not living as long???)

I always believed that dinosaurs existed before man, but I am at present rethinking my position.

Bon

[mjterry87]

I believe that the myths of dragons came from the big lizards that people saw in deserts. And they did not understand them and just made myths about them. But do I believe in them, no. But I do believe that there are some creatures that we have not discovered yet. And what espically ponders me is the Lochness monster, I know it is not real, but people have been seeing the monster for years before the picture, and the lake is pretty big, so there could be something in it. I don't know, HaShem made our world mysterous! :wave: Also I saw a documentary on the Loch, and they had some pictures of some really big snake thing, I mean really big.

[Ahavah]

Were there dinosaurs on the ark?
Perhaps babies.....to take up less room.

Elephants are pretty big, but not as big as dinos. Hmmmm...good question Bon.

[Sephania]

I believe that the dinos were distroyed in the flood, that is why we have the fossils preserved. And about dragons, have you ever heard about King George? Wasn't he called the dragon slayer? I know there are woodcuts of this somewhere.

[Sephania]

Opps, it was Saint George :doh:



The fame of Saint George throughout Europe was increased greatly by the publication in 1265 of the Legenda Sanctorum ("Readings on the Saints"), known later as the Legenda Aurea ("The Golden Legend"), by James of Voragine. It was this book which popularized the legend of George and the Dragon, which was particularly well-received in England because of a similar folktale found in Anglo-Saxon lore. The actual origin of the George/Dragon fable remains somewhat obscure. It was first recorded in the late Sixth Century and may have possibly been an allegory of Emperor Diocletian's persecution of the Christians. In ancient texts, Diocletian is sometimes referred to as "the dragon." The tale may also be a christianized version of the Greek legend of Perseus, who was said to have rescued the virgin Andromeda from a sea monster at Arsuf or Jaffa, near Lydda, where the cult of Saint George first took root around the site of his supposed tomb.

However, according to "The Golden Legend," the tale unfolds as follows:

A dragon once lived in a lake near Silena, Libya. Whole armies had fought against this fierce creature and had fallen in painful defeat. The monster devoured two sheep every day in a time when mutton was scarce. In the local villages, lots were drawn and maidens substituted for the sheep. Into this country came Saint George. Hearing the story on a day when a princess was to be the sacrifice, he crossed himself, rode into battle against the serpent, and killed it with a single blow of his lance. George then held forth with a magnificent sermon and converted the local people to Christianity. Given a large reward by the king, George distributed it to the poor and then rode away. http://www.novareinna.com/festive/georgeday.html

[Sephania]

Here is the painting by Raphael, it is titled The Defeat of Evil

http://landru.i-link-2.net/shnyves/The_Defeat_of_Evil.html Click on painting to enlarge. Also read the accompanying text.

[Sephania]

Here is a huge statue of this in Stockholm http://blogs.sun.com/roller/resources/korn/St-George-and-the-Dragon.jpg

[Sephania]

Short but interesting reading on Dragons and serpents in the Bible.

The major appearances of a dragon relate to Leviathan2 (http://www.polenth.demon.co.uk/myth/bible.html#2). This dragon appears to be a huge, sea-dwelling creature, with possible associations with crocodiles. Many of the sea-monsters and sea-serpents of Bible translations are most likely Leviathan.
Leviathan is an exceptionally powerful creature, but is not described as evil at any point in the Bible. In Job, God uses Leviathan as an example of the weakness of humans; humans can never hope to defeat a creature as powerful as Leviathan (Job 41:1-34). This symbolism of an undefeatable monster appears to have been extended to describe Egypt. At one point, God is described as defeating Leviathan (Psalms 74:13-24). This is repeated again later, and is very similar, except that the monster being defeated is Egypt (Ezekiel 29:3-5). Possibly the earlier account of God defeating Leviathan is also the metaphor of Egypt's defeat.

Read the rest here: http://www.polenth.demon.co.uk/myth/bible.html

[Sephania]

From wikipedia, take or leave

Leviathan לִוְיָתָן "Twisted; coiled

The Leviathan comes from the Book of Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis) chapter 1: 20-21 (also cited by Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi)) [1] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp), in recounting the fifth day of Creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_%28theology%29): "God [thus] created the great sea monsters - Taninim" in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), which could also mean whales or dragons, and see also the Book of Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus) 7:9 [2] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=2&CHAPTER=7) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=2&CHAPTER=7), where it is a viper or serpent.

Some rabbinic midrash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash) state that the Genesis account alludes to a pair of particularly great sea creatures, the Leviathan and its mate. (See Book of Isaiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah) 27:1; Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) 74:14 and 104:26; Book of Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job) 3:8 and 40:25.) [3] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp#C8) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp#C8).

The festival of Sukkot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot) (Festival of Booths) concludes with a prayer recited upon leaving the sukkah (booth): "May it be your will, Lord our God and God of our forefathers, that just as I have fulfilled and dwelled in this sukkah, so may I merit in the coming year to dwell in the sukkah of the skin of Leviathan. Next year in Jerusalem."

A commentary on this prayer in the Artscroll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artscroll) prayer-book (p. 725) adds: "The Leviathan was a monstrous fish created on the fifth day of Creation. Its story is related at length in the Talmud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud) Baba Bathra 74b, where it is told that the Leviathan will be slain and its flesh served as a feast to the righteous in [the] Time to Come, and its skin used to cover the tent where the banquet will take place."
There is another religious hymn recited on the festival of Shavuot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot) (celebrating the giving of the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah)), known as Akdamut, wherein it says: "...The sport with the Leviathan and the ox ...When they will interlock with one another and engage in combat, with his horns the Behemoth will gore with strength, the fish [Leviathan] will leap to meet him with his fins, with power. Their Creator will approach them with his mighty sword [and slay them both]." Thus, "from the [b]beautiful skin of the Leviathan, God will construct canopies to shelter the righteous, who will eat the meat of the Behemoth [ox] and the Leviathan amid great joy and merriment, at a huge banquet that will be given for them." Some rabbinical commentators say these accounts are allegorical. (Artscroll siddur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddur), p. 719).

Legend has it that in the banquet after Armageddon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon), the carcass of the leviathan will be served as a meal, along with the behemoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth) and the ziz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziz).

Leviathan may also be interpreted as the sea itself, with its counterparts behemoth being the land and ziz being the air and space.

Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgynous) dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon) that seduced Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve) in its male form, and Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam) in its female form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan

[Ahavah]

From wikipedia, take or leave

Leviathan לִוְיָתָן "Twisted; coiled

The Leviathan comes from the Book of Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis) chapter 1: 20-21 (also cited by Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi)) [1] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp), in recounting the fifth day of Creation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_%28theology%29): "God [thus] created the great sea monsters - Taninim" in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language), which could also mean whales or dragons, and see also the Book of Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Exodus) 7:9 [2] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=2&CHAPTER=7) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=2&CHAPTER=7), where it is a viper or serpent.

Some rabbinic midrash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash) state that the Genesis account alludes to a pair of particularly great sea creatures, the Leviathan and its mate. (See Book of Isaiah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah) 27:1; Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) 74:14 and 104:26; Book of Job (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job) 3:8 and 40:25.) [3] (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp#C8) (http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp#C8).

The festival of Sukkot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot) (Festival of Booths) concludes with a prayer recited upon leaving the sukkah (booth): "May it be your will, Lord our God and God of our forefathers, that just as I have fulfilled and dwelled in this sukkah, so may I merit in the coming year to dwell in the sukkah of the skin of Leviathan. Next year in Jerusalem."

A commentary on this prayer in the Artscroll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artscroll) prayer-book (p. 725) adds: "The Leviathan was a monstrous fish created on the fifth day of Creation. Its story is related at length in the Talmud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud) Baba Bathra 74b, where it is told that the Leviathan will be slain and its flesh served as a feast to the righteous in [the] Time to Come, and its skin used to cover the tent where the banquet will take place."
There is another religious hymn recited on the festival of Shavuot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot) (celebrating the giving of the Torah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah)), known as Akdamut, wherein it says: "...The sport with the Leviathan and the ox ...When they will interlock with one another and engage in combat, with his horns the Behemoth will gore with strength, the fish [Leviathan] will leap to meet him with his fins, with power. Their Creator will approach them with his mighty sword [and slay them both]." Thus, "from the [b]beautiful skin of the Leviathan, God will construct canopies to shelter the righteous, who will eat the meat of the Behemoth [ox] and the Leviathan amid great joy and merriment, at a huge banquet that will be given for them." Some rabbinical commentators say these accounts are allegorical. (Artscroll siddur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddur), p. 719).

Legend has it that in the banquet after Armageddon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armageddon), the carcass of the leviathan will be served as a meal, along with the behemoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behemoth) and the ziz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziz).

Leviathan may also be interpreted as the sea itself, with its counterparts behemoth being the land and ziz being the air and space.

Certain Jewish legends consider leviathan as an androgynous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgynous) dragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dragon) that seduced Eve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_Eve) in its male form, and Adam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam) in its female form. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan

Very interesting Zayit. Todah for the info.

[Sephania]

Welcome. :)

My question is, why would anyone want a covering or chuppah made from dragon skin? :scratch:, I for one want out from that.

[Sephania]

Now, carpeting, that's another story. ;)

[Shimshon]

Welcome. :)

My question is, why would anyone want a covering or chuppah made from dragon skin? :scratch:, I for one want out from that.It's in representation of the good brought about by the evil in the world. i.e. when Bavel was sent by YHVH to scatter Yisrael to the four corners of the earth. (does the earth really have four corners?) It was by this act that 'ALL Yisrael will be saved". By the 'covering' of the dragon upon the world, the righteous by the power of YHVH feast on his body as Yeshua redeems all who are his, through this act.

The same as the way we take all the instruments of the nations and use them for good. The same as Yisrael plundered Mitzrayim when they left by asking them for all their prize possesions, and they gave them to them, by the will of YHVH.

This is the jest of 'The Feast of Leviathon"

[Sephania]

Jest, or gist? ;)

I don't know about that Shimshon, I believe that all reptiles are treif, aren't they? :)

[Shimshon]

how did we get on the topic of kashrut? I was talking about the anthropomorphism used in defining the role of the Adversary in regards to the leviathon. I know you heard of this 'feast'. You should know as well it's not about the mo'edim or kashrut. It's about using physical worldly things and ways to define a Spiritual and heavenly way. Hence, 'the Feast of Leviathon'. Where we feast on the carcass of the dead. (Metaphore, not reality, not about kashrut) It's about the righteous using the enemies as a 'stepping stone', placed by YHVH himself. One might take this to it's illogical end and say, Glory to the beast for his fall, through it we are made whole. But we who know glorify the creater of such things, not the creation he set up. We glory in the creator for making a 'feast of leviathon'. For setting up his plan accordingly that our enemies will become 'our footstool'. Should we touch the sinner as we step up to YHVH? If it was his plan, would you refuse?

[talmidim]

Job 41:34 He sees everything that is high. He is king over all the sons of pride."

Under the rules of PaRDeS, the plain meaning of this verse seemingly indicates a direct relationship between the physical beast Livyatan and the spiritual being of the evil one.

[PaladinGirl]

Welcome. :)

My question is, why would anyone want a covering or chuppah made from dragon skin? :scratch:, I for one want out from that.

Symbolic maybe? It would also make good armor.

[Sephania]

But with the Dragon dead, and no longer a threat, what do we need protection from? ;)

[Sephania]

Here's something interesting from a well respected man, E.W. Bullinger


No one has ever seen a dragon; but among all nations (especially in China and Japan), and in all ages, we find it described and depicted in legend and in art. Both Old and New Testaments refer to it, and all unite in connecting with it one and the same great enemy of God and man.

It is against him that the God-Man--"the Son of God--goes forth to war." It is for him that the eternal fires are prepared. It is he who shall shortly be cast down from the heavens preparatory to his completed judgment. It is of him we read, "The great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down" (Rev 12:9,10).



Here is what Isaiah says:
"In that day the LORD, with his sore, and great, and strong sword,
Shall punish leviathan the piercing (RV, swift) serpent,
Even leviathan that crooked serpent;
And he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea." Isiah 26:1; 27:1


So if Isaias sees him as one that dwells in the sea, should we take this symbolically when we see the beast rising up from the sea as in Revelation?

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Sea-Definition
the sea
used of the sea in general
used specifically of the Mediterranean Sea or the Red Sea



If so, Why?

[Shimshon]

And he shall slay the dragon which is in the sea.

The sea represents people, nations. The dragon, as we have discussed, represent those who have Levi (joined to), Tan (the Adversary, or dragon).

Quite simple really, he will win over those who join themselves with the enemy, who is dwelling within the nations of the earth.

It's said in many many different ways. The message is always the same.




Rev 17:7 Then the angel said to me, "Why are you astounded? I will tell you the hidden meaning of the woman and of the beast with seven heads and ten horns that was carrying her. 8 The beast you saw once was, now is not, and will come up from the Abyss; but it is on its way to destruction. The people living on earth whose names have not been written in the Book of Life since the founding of the world will be astounded to see the beast that once was, now is not, but is to appear. 9 This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven hills on which the woman is sitting; also they are seven kings - 10 five have fallen, one is living now and the other is yet to come; and when he does come, he must remain only a little while. 11 The beast which once was and now is not is an eighth king; it comes from the seven and is on its way to destruction. 12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet begun to rule, but they receive power as kings for one hour, along with the beast. 13 They have one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will go to war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will defeat them, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are called, chosen and faithful will overcome along with him." 15 Then he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the whore is sitting, are peoples, crowds, nations and languages. 16 As for the ten horns that you saw and the beast, they will hate the whore, bring her to ruin, leave her naked, eat her flesh and consume her with fire. 17 For God put it in their hearts to do what will fulfill his purpose, that is, to be of one mind and give their kingdom to the beast until God's words have accomplished their intent. 18 And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

[Shimshon]

But with the Dragon dead, and no longer a threat, what do we need protection from? ;)So then who are those against Yeshua 'joining' themselves to? A dead beast? Has he been cast into the pit never to return? Or does he still roam and seek all to devour? The dragon is dead 'prophetically'. But not yet. He has no power over those who are written in "the lamb's Book of Life" (do you really think there is a papyrus book?). So to us, he is dead. But to a wise person, you know he is very alive and ready to take even you down, if that were possible (is he really going to 'take you down'? down where?)

(see what I mean by anthropomorphism, most of the parenth'ed phrases throughout my posts were examples)

[Sephania]

Then who is the dragon that is in the sea that Isaias speaks of?

[Shimshon]

Those who have joined themselves to the Advesary, through out the human race (sea).

You are represented by the person in charge. Your master. Would it be clearer if it said; the dragon "and his children"? Yeshua and his sheep? When they fight against 'the Lamb', is it not 'humans' who suffer and die? When we fight against 'the dragon' is it not 'humans' who suffer and are attacked spiritually by him?

[Bananna]

Yes I believe the legends are based on something that is there. I believe some preflood creatures did breath caustic and flamable chemicals as a defense mechnism, just like the bombadere beetle.

I believe that there has been a large anchent creature in the cold mountain lakes. I think they are just live water dwelling dinasaurs.

Bananna

[Bon]

A question for those who believe that the dinosaurs were possibly wiped out by the flood.....why weren't they on the ark?

Could it be that they were on the ark and became extinct after atmospheric conditions changed after the flood?

:confused:

[visionary]

Many have claimed to have seen the Loc Ness Monster.

[talmidim]

A question for those who believe that the dinosaurs were possibly wiped out by the flood.....why weren't they on the ark?

Could it be that they were on the ark and became extinct after atmospheric conditions changed after the flood?

:confused:Good questions, Bon. I have always wondered about the creation of the wine at Cana. You know, it was created already aged. You could even say that it's history was created at the time the wine was created. I've often wondered the same things about this earth, dinosaurs and all. As far as the flood goes, those creatures that are at home in the water where probably not included on the arc. No fishes, two by two (or Levyitans). ;)

[Shimshon]

A question for those who believe that the dinosaurs were possibly wiped out by the flood.....why weren't they on the ark?

Could it be that they were on the ark and became extinct after atmospheric conditions changed after the flood?

:confused:Look at the Size of the ark defined by YHVH to Noach, then try and imagine a Brontasaurus and a T-Rex fitting in it. Mamouth, sure, with an elephant....tight, but a Bronto AND a T, with all the rest? No I say we have plenty of evidence they were wiped out in the flood. Not remained after. But that's just me. Take it as you may.

[Hedgehog]

Maybe young dinosaurs could have been taken on the ark to save room?
Some (or all?) reptiles grow their entire lives,so with the extended life spans before the flood, reptiles would have had a chance to grow much larger than they do today.

[Ahavah]

Wondering....http://www.geocities.com/pegasus2u_99/dragons/di.gif

[Shimshon]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_17.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZNxdm11798US)

[daughterofzion]

Do you believe in Dragons? (not the comodo dragon either, but the ones that breathe fire.);) Did you know that in the book of Job, he talks about a fire breathing monster? Hmmm....

I think its very possible that "dragons" literaly are or were real!

[Sephania]

would the L-RD use this word in his word if it were an "imaginary" thing? :)