about OT cannon

[Cright]

Hi All!

I have been recently doing some reseach as to the cannonization of the NT, w/ some friends. I found that all of the NT books were considered cannon by 160 ad w/ the exception of rev. It was all reconised by the council of trent in 325 (including rev.)

The more we studied the info on when the NT became cannon, the more we wondered about the OT. It goes so far back in time, before people dated and signed stuff they wrote. It's not easy to pop online and find a little chart that shows when this stuff happend, let alone when it became canon.

I know that most of the scriptures were passed on by oral tradition. I also see that from deu. 6:9 the L_rd asked his people to write, so others could see and know. So it's not like writing sripture is a new thing (not just the last 2000 years).

so... the question is... does anyone here know when the OT became cannon? Are there books on this? websites?

Thanks in advance for reading and for any information you can give.

[simchat_torah]

I wouldn't be so quick to say the NT Cannon was decided so easily. There were literally dozens upon dozens of councils that gathered when compiling the texts of the NT, none of them agreeing with the other. Even more so, the two councils that you specifically mentioned actually contained different 'cannons' than those we have cannonized today! Even more so, depending on who you ask (ie: Coptic churches, Catholics, Protestants, etc) you will hear a variety of books that would be considered 'cannon'. Beyond this, most of the time you see a christian council recorded in history where 'cannon' is the acclaimed subject, typically it isn't... most usually these councils gathered not to determine what is cannonical, but rather what was to be used in liturgy.

Cannonical history is much more vague that most christians realize.

shalom,
yafet

[rooster]

325 was probably the council of nicea not trent. nicea dealt mainly with matters concerning the dogma of trinity and arianism heresy not the canon.
Council of trent was a response to the protestant movement around the 1600s and it was important in bringing the roman catholic church up to date.
The canonisation of the NT as we know it also came around that time.
Most of the epistles were either rejected or accepted at one time or another and much doubt was thrown over the authorless epistle to the Hebrews.
The short epistles were especially problematic, for example the prose of the epistles of john had to be compared to the gospel of John as part of the process of identifying the author.

[rooster]

Sorry the council of trent was in the 1545 and lasted for a while.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15030c.htm

and this is the council of Nicaea precided over by the still probably pagan Constantine.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

i got a nice chart somewhere that shows the inclusion and exclusion of the NT books somewhere...be right back with that

[rooster]

And you mentioned a date ...160AD.
What happned then?
As much as i know, that was during the reign of Aurelius Pius, a relative period of calm for the church between Hadrian and M. aurelius who persecuted the church to a great degree.
The second century did provide some of the writings that was important to identifying and verifying the various epistles and their authors. Polycarp and Ireneusis writings were especially important since they quote and made references to some of the epistles to a certain degree and polycarp being the disciple of John and ireneus a disciple of Polycarp are considered reliable sources in these matters.
So materials that went on to support the formulation of an NT was written in this period but there was no standardization as of yet as far as i know

[Cright]

eek! I just re-read my post.. and yes.. I think I should have waited til I was in less of a hurry to post this question.

- nothing really "happened" in 160.. it's just that by that point the NT books were reconised as cannon by one group or another (except for rev.) there was no specific council mentioned that sat down for this.

- It was council of nicia (also same council that created the nicean creed). I had council of trent in my brain because I have been looking through some sola scriptura arguements and it lead to the reformation and of couse the council of trent, as mentioned.

I do have a chart, but as I have less than 100 posts I can't put it in a thread. :(

- the question is really about the OT. Does anyone know when It came into written/book form?

edit: thanks to all those who have read/responded so far! :D

[simchat_torah]

nothing really "happened" in 160.. it's just that by that point the NT books were reconised as cannon by one group or another (except for rev.) there was no specific council mentioned that sat down for this.
two quick questions:
1) What group?
2) Which 'christian' cannon? (there were several during 160... as well as a few today)

It was council of nicia (also same council that created the nicean creed).
The council of Nicea didn't discuss cannonization, but the cannon that was used at that time actually varied from what protestants (I'm assuming you're protestant by your icon) use today.
Why is it then that you say the cannon was decided at that time, or that it is the same as the one used today?

Curious,
yafet

[Cright]

two quick questions:

1) What group?

2) Which 'christian' cannon? (there were several during 160... as well as a few today)

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_01_01.html#stages (http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_02_01_01.html#stages)



The above website gives similar information to what I have been reading at home. Sources listed on the website. I don't claim to believe every word of the web site, but as a nice tool.







The council of Nicea didn't discuss canonization, but the cannon that was used at that time actually varied from what protestants (I'm assuming you're protestant by your icon) use today.

Why is it then that you say the cannon was decided at that time, or that it is the same as the one used today?



Curious,

yafet





I don't say that the council of nicea decided the cannon or that it is the same one used today (as I don't know), just that the council of nicea RECONISED it. I don’t know if Nicea did or did not discuss canonization. Beyond the fact that they recognized NT cannon, I know nothing of what nicea's roll was with it.


I do thank you for your responses... however my question is still the same one I originally posted with... does anyone know when OLD testament cannon was written.


**side note** I understand that since Deu. G_ds word was written.. I'm wondering about when the OT was put into book form. Just out of curiosity. I have no particular purpose for this knowledge.



Thank you,
C

[rooster]

Ok just came across this.
The Old Testament as we know it became canonical at around second century BC. The Law(Torah) and the Prophets(nevi'im) were accepted pretty early it was the Writings(ketuvim) took a while to be canonically accepted. (This could change further since the former canonical date for the OT was 90ad but was changed to around 2nd century BC due to new research)
And the new testament as we knew it was generally "accepted" around the 4th century by certain segments of the church but the authenticity of books like Hebrew some of the epistles of Peter and John and jude were still in dispute.
The canon status of certain books was called into question at the time of the reformation. For example, Martin Luther would reject James [for obvious reasons].