Woman only question - Handling of the Word

[Sephania]

I understand that we are not to touch the Holy things when Niddah, but what are the Holy things? The Torah is all we have now, is it just the scrolls or does this mean we are not to touch a printed English bible as well for this time? I am uncertain as to what I am allowed to do. Would HaShem deny me ( and all other woman in Niddah) His word during this time? :confused: Any that have any halachot on this pleaze share.

[Henaynei]

If you use as a guide line this - those things that a man might touch during the Torah service - it helps a lot.

Not all of this makes "sense" from a hellenistic logic POV but here goes some thoughts:

A Niddah may cook for her house and eat from the same dishes - but she is not to take from the dish (serving dish/pot) at the same time a post BarMitvzh male is taking from the pot. You can use the same condiment containers (salt, ketchup etc) but you may not pass them from one to the other, rather they are to be placed down on the table and picked up from there. You can eat at the same table, but, because you do this all month long and might find yourselves forgetting that this time is special, you are to place something that is not normally on the table between you and your husband.

Your bible and your things are all permissable for you to handle. But your husband is not to handle them *while you are niddah.*

Holy things would include the Torah, the Ark, all the dressings of the Torah and Ark, the reading table and the pointer, any Tallit/Tzitzit or Kippah. You should not use anything to touch the Torah as it passes - in my community the women tend to reverently bow slightly as the Torah passes.

I bow to the Torah all month long, I refrain from touching men other than my husband (except in the course of my work as a nurse) all month long. I have found the wisdom of our ancient Mothers useful here. To do this totally eliminates the necessity of trying to find a non-embarrassing way of explaining why *today* I won't shake your hand when yesterday I did. I refrain from all touching of men other than my husband and this provides an additional barrier of honor, protection and sanctity to my marriage. I am also relieved of having to explain to anyone other than my husband that I am menstruating.

As you grow in thei mitzvah numerous "issues" (forgive the pun) will present themsleves to your thinking - almost all of them have been dealt with by our ancient Mothers who sought and received wisdom from the rabbis. Grow at your won pace and ask the questions as HaShem brings them to mind.

[Sephania]

Thank you for verifying that I may still pick up my Bible, I was hoping for a positive answer, I don't know what I would do if the Word were denied me even for one day! I already understood the others, in the synogogue, the mantle, the yad, the ark, etc, but not that my siddur could not touch during this time, thank you for that as well. Is the Siddur off limits as well? Some times I have just stayed home to avoid any "Accidental touching", but then I am not in fellowship as commanded.

As well as around the house stuff I have already been practicing so there is care taken there as well. My husband and I even sleep in different rooms, not just different beds and also don't share the same Bathroom.

Yes, I am learning and trying to more each day, I didn't realize that my understanding was Hellenistic, that is a surprise and I shall contemplate how I have given that impression.



One more question, what about the laying on of hands? I have terrible headaches and cramps as of late and my husband when he sees my pain will lay hands on me and pray for relief, is this taboo?

[Henaynei]

Thank you for verifying that I may still pick up my Bible, I was hoping for a positive answer, I don't know what I would do if the Word were denied me even for one day! I already understood the others, in the synogogue, the mantle, the yad, the ark, etc, but not that my siddur could not touch during this time, thank you for that as well. Is the Siddur off limits as well? Some times I have just stayed home to avoid any "Accidental touching", but then I am not in fellowship as commanded.
No, you can touch the siddur ;) although I got my own for that and other reasons ;)

As well as around the house stuff I have already been practicing so there is care taken there as well. My husband and I even sleep in different rooms, not just different beds and also don't share the same Bathroom. KEWL, you are way advanced of most others!! What a wonderful teacher you will be as women in your community begin this journey!

Yes, I am learning and trying to more each day, I didn't realize that my understanding was Hellenistic, that is a surprise and I shall contemplate how I have given that impression. No, NO, I was speking in generalities, aware that more than just someone as advanced as you would be reading this from time to time ;) All of us goyim or those raised in the goyisha culture - all of Western Civilaization is Hellenistic. The Gentile body is mostly Hellenistic and because that is all they have ever known they are totally unaware, usually, that there is another scriptural point of view. I was trying to speak to those also - my communication skills are suffering today :(

One more question, what about the laying on of hands? I have terrible headaches and cramps as of late and my husband when he sees my pain will lay hands on me and pray for relief, is this taboo? As with many other things with Torah, the relieving of suffering and saving a life are given precedence. So for him to help relieve your headaches is kosher - but if you are truly keeping Family purity Laws he is then required to consider himself " ritually unclean" until sunset and then go to the mikvah. If this should happen on the Shabbat he should let the rabbi know that he can not accept an Aliyah that service.

[Sephania]

I will obstain from letting him on Shabbat because he is a Ark stewart as well as Usher adn Greeter and hands out the Siddurs. We have our own so I can use that in synagogue.

After service is over and he is home would be OK then if I were really suffering?

One other thing we were discussing. Currently we only have one vehicle as I work from home. So If I am to go to the store during the week...............the seat? I thought it would be OK if I were to place a plastic bag on the seat to cover it while I use the car and remove it when I got home. What do you think?

Oh, about the Hellenistic remark, don't mind me, today is first day of "hormonal dis-harmony" so I am overly sensitive :( please forgive. I understand what you mean, not your fault. Forgiven? :hug:

[Henaynei]

I will obstain from letting him on Shabbat because he is a Ark stewart as well as Usher adn Greeter and hands out the Siddurs. We have our own so I can use that in synagogue.

After service is over and he is home would be OK then if I were really suffering? YES, of course :hug:

One other thing we were discussing. Currently we only have one vehicle as I work from home. So If I am to go to the store during the week...............the seat? I thought it would be OK if I were to place a plastic bag on the seat to cover it while I use the car and remove it when I got home. What do you think? Even a special towel or pillow is sufficient (I can't imagine using a plastic bag in Florida - the seat of my dress would be *soaked* by the time I got to my destination!!!

Oh, about the Hellenistic remark, don't mind me, today is first day of "hormonal dis-harmony" so I am overly sensitive :( please forgive. I understand what you mean, not your fault. Forgiven? :hug: Let's hear it for Hormonal DisHarmony!!! My husband thinks I ought to join a convent during mine (j/k) as he "just can't keep up!" Of course you're forgiven - I need it 70x7!!

[Sephania]

After I got done kvetching at my husband that I was hungry but needed some PChips to go with my sandwich first ( he had to go to the store because we are out of them) I said to him "now you can praise and Thank HaShem that you weren't born a woman, and be truly grateful!" ;) They should know HOW thankful they should be! :D

[Sephania]

Of course he is not back yet, I asked him to order me some Kosher ground beef while he was still there and stop and rent me some nice Jewish movies to help make me laugh while I am suffering so much! Oy, I am going to starve to death if he does'nt get back here soon.

Eh, the men aren't so lucky, they don't have to feel the physical pain, but they get to listen to us enduring it! :D

[Henaynei]

Poooor Mr. Zayit!!!!! He needs :help:

[Sephania]

He finally got back, got my beef order in and picked up two movies and brought me CHOCOLATE! :D I am pacified now for the moment! ;)

[visionary]

Calcium three days before menses decreases pain considerably.

[mbams]

It has been interesting reading through this thread.

I am curious to why this particular family purity law was given. I know sometimes things that G-d asks are not always immediately understandable. But does anybody know why this one was given?

Also, what Jewish movies do you watch, Zayit?

[Henaynei]

The core of this commandment is the abstention of sexual relations during menses. I have seen, but can't find right now, evidence that there is a higher incidence of birth defects and pregnancy complications in pregnancies resulting during menses.

Also, G-d has numerous instructions about blood. And any issue from the body is considered prohibitively "ceremonially unclean," male or female, blood or otherwise.

That is the best I can give you - perhaps others have more insight.

[visionary]

medically speaking, when the mucus plug is missing during menses and/or birthing, the female is now more vunerable to infections and disease.

[mbams]

Very interesting. Thank you, folks!

[torahlife]

Two weeks after the first day of the menstrual cycle ovulation begins. Thus the command that a woman abstain from sexual activity during her time of uncleanness is for two weeks. When this time is up she will do a mikvah in which afterwards she can then be with her husband and at this time she is also most likely to conceive. Is this coincidence or G-d's wisdom?

torahlife

[visionary]

Barefoot and pregnant, the happy state of woman...
Be fruitful and multiply...LOL
No wonder God is personified as a male....
Personally, I loved being pregnant, it is one of the most important parts of the miracle of procreation...Man can only feel the kicking against the hand and we have the joy of holding the life in ourselves. Women are truly blessed... with this....I love being a woman...I love the fact I can think circles around a man...LOL

[brentsbaby612]

Two weeks after the first day of the menstrual cycle ovulation begins.

Also, that way a woman is more likely to have a boy. Thus, making Israel physically more stronger than it's enemies. If you don't obey the family purty law you are more likely to have a girl. Either way you will have what HaShem intended!:)

Now I have some questions! If you don't shake men's hands, then what do you do when they offer it?( I would like to do this but I don't want to be rude)
Also, do you think that it's important to not sleep in the same bed and not sit in the same seat ect.. even though at the time the torah was written they didn't have the sanitairy napkins that we do today? (I want to obey this but my DH doesn't think it's a big deal) :confused:

[mbams]

Also, that way a woman is more likely to have a boy. Thus, making Israel physically more stronger than it's enemies. If you don't obey the family purty law you are more likely to have a girl. Either way you will have what HaShem intended!:)

hmm... doesn't the man's contribution to conception determine the sex of the child. I don’t see how this could be affected by what part of cycle the women conceives in.

[Henaynei]

Two weeks after the first day of the menstrual cycle ovulation begins. Thus the command that a woman abstain from sexual activity during her time of uncleanness is for two weeks. When this time is up she will do a mikvah in which afterwards she can then be with her husband and at this time she is also most likely to conceive. Is this coincidence or G-d's wisdom?

torahlife
You ain't just munchin' babka there baby ;) it is all part of Intelligent Design!!

[Henaynei]

Now I have some questions! If you don't shake men's hands, then what do you do when they offer it?( I would like to do this but I don't want to be rude) If it is within my community I train the men to not expect that I will shake - I greet them with my hands behind my back, the biggest "I'm so happy to see you" smile on my face and my best "gee, I'm just so happy" (nothing to terribly apologetic) voice and tellthem how delighted I am to see or meat them and "I'm so sorry, but I don't touch men other than my husband." Consistancy and a positive cheery attitude is the key - they may look befuddled byt I have never have any get angry. Out in the business world, where I touch patients all day, it is another issue. There I figure an orthodox man will not offer to shake and if one is a patient he knows what to do to elivate the situation afterwards. ;)

Also, do you think that it's important to not sleep in the same bed and not sit in the same seat ect.. even though at the time the torah was written they didn't have the sanitairy napkins that we do today? (I want to obey this but my DH doesn't think it's a big deal) :confused: The command not to sleep and sit has as much to do withthe temptation to intimacy as pollution of blood. IF at all possible separate beds is the best route. If you must sit on the same seat, such as a couch, a mekhetz (seperator) is needed, something set between the two of you that makes remembering to not place a companionshiping arm around the other is very helpful. Most anything that will make it a little awkward would do - a couple of kids works wonderfully, but I am not sure about the halakah concerning using them - LOL.

[brentsbaby612]

Out in the business world, where I touch patients all day, it is another issue. There I figure an orthodox man will not offer to shake and if one is a patient he knows what to do to elivate the situation afterwards.

Forgive me, but I'm a bit confused. Are all your patients orthodox or are you only suppose to not touch orthodox men?:confused:The keeping my hands behind me back is a good idea. Thank you for that, but what do I do if they offer it anyway? And does anyone have any good ideas on where to sleep (during niddah) if you have no extra rooms or beds.Oh and I'm nursing, and I have to care for my children. Are they all unclean with me during niddah? Can they not touch their father?:(

[Pray4Isrel]

Forgive me, but I'm a bit confused. Are all your patients orthodox or are you only suppose to not touch orthodox men?:confused:The keeping my hands behind me back is a good idea. Thank you for that, but what do I do if they offer it anyway? And does anyone have any good ideas on where to sleep (during niddah) if you have no extra rooms or beds.Oh and I'm nursing, and I have to care for my children. Are they all unclean with me during niddah? Can they not touch their father?:(
I believe that the children would be considered unclean as well then... am I correct in this?

Leviticus 15
19 'If a woman has a discharge, and the discharge from her body is blood, she shall be set apart seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. 20 Everything that she lies on during her impurity shall be unclean; also everything that she sits on shall be unclean. 21 Whoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. 22 And whoever touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water, and be unclean until evening. 23 If anything is on her bed or on anything on which she sits, when he touches it, he shall be unclean until evening. 24 And if any man lies with her at all, so that her impurity is on him, he shall be unclean seven days; and every bed on which he lies shall be unclean.

[Pray4Isrel]

Barefoot and pregnant, the happy state of woman...
Be fruitful and multiply...LOL
No wonder God is personified as a male....
Personally, I loved being pregnant, it is one of the most important parts of the miracle of procreation...Man can only feel the kicking against the hand and we have the joy of holding the life in ourselves. Women are truly blessed... with this....I love being a woman...I love the fact I can think circles around a man...LOL
Amen and Amen!
Though I have not ever had a child yet... nor am I currently pregnant, contrary to what Hix, PG and S_T like to insinuate. ;)
I am sure it will be a wonderful experience.
My mother said that her best times were the times she was pregnant.

[Henaynei]

Forgive me, but I'm a bit confused. Are all your patients orthodox or are you only suppose to not touch orthodox men?:confused:The keeping my hands behind me back is a good idea. Thank you for that, but what do I do if they offer it anyway? And does anyone have any good ideas on where to sleep (during niddah) if you have no extra rooms or beds.Oh and I'm nursing, and I have to care for my children. Are they all unclean with me during niddah? Can they not touch their father?:(Essentially you can only make ritually unclean those who partake in the holy rituals and handle the ritual items.

When a man in my community offers his hand anyway, and I have had a couple who don't agree with family purity, I *keep* my hands behind my back, smile my warmest and states *again* that the only man I touch is my husband but "thank you just the same." There is the *other* side to family purity - and that is *keeping the "family" pure.* By this I mean it is a tool where by a woman (and man) keeps themselves ONLY for their spouse. You dont' exchange physical contact with other men and hubby does not exchange physical contact with other women. I reiterate this function, when necessary, as firmly and gently as possible. In fact, when asked why I don't shake hands I will usually say something along the lines of "it is part of how I obey G-d and honor my husband and marriage." It takes a real cad to push the issue beyond that and I bet you are a fair hand at appropiately dealing with cads!! ;)

We do not yet have separate beds and since I have been paralized some years ago I can not afford to sleep anywhere (like the couch) that could jepardize my back. So, we use piles of pillows to separate and hope one day to be able to afford 2 twin beds that will make an lovely king bed the rest of the month ;) You can come up with other creative ideas. If you already have a king frame you can put 2 twins on it (even a king boxspring and 2 twin mattresses). Then if you know someone handy they can make a wood or plastic separator that you can hang in the crack between the mattresses and attach to the head & foot boards during the time you are a niddah. You would use king sheets, perhaps, during the tahor days and dress the twins in separate twin sheets during the tamei days.That is one idea, I am sure you can think of others ;)

The halakah is that the children are not unclean, but, except in a real emergency, you should not hand the child to the spouse but rather put the child down to allow the other to pick up ;)

[brentsbaby612]

Great! Thank you for clearing that up for me! :)

[Henaynei]

hope I was a material assist ;)

[brentsbaby612]

:confused: Goodness! I'm just full of questions on the subject;). So can one woman not touch another woman (who is not orthodox) because she might be in niddah?

[Henaynei]

:confused: Goodness! I'm just full of questions on the subject;). So can one woman not touch another woman (who is not orthodox) because she might be in niddah?
Yes, halakiclly you can only make a male ritually unclean :)

Questions are GOOD!!

I also suggest a couple of good resources in addition to the scriptures:

"How to run a Traditional Jewish Household" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index%3Dstripbooks%26field-keywords%3Dblu%20greenberg%26results-process%3Ddefault%26dispatch%3Dsearch/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Ftops-1%5Fstripbooks%5F4217505%5F2/002-0235461-5438470)by Blu Greenberg
She is a tad feminist, but most true feminists would not think so ;) This is an **excellent** all round book on the title subject! And it will FILL you with questions!!! (THAT is the Jewish way!)

"A Woman's Guide to the Laws of Niddah (http://www.judaicaplace.com/item.asp?ITEM_ID=ahgioahdec)" by Rabbi Binyomin Forst
This has a lot of terms and concepts that will be totally new and strange - the glossary in the back is some help ;)