Chiasm in John

[gtsecc]

Does anyone have any proposed Chiastic structures for John?

[Bananna]

?

In the Beginning refers to Genesis and sets the tone for the book. This is how we know that the light of the world is HaShem and HaShem created all things. This is not a reference to Yehoshuah which is later called the Living Torah. Man/logos. in 1:14 At one point in the Greek the article the is put before a term which does not need the. A direct translation would be the the Name. The extra the is dropped in English traslations because they do not use the HaShem in the English version.

To believe on his name refers in tJohn 1:12 to HaShem the light of the world. 1:7 refers to John testifying about the ONE light that was in the world but not known by the world, which is HaShem.

When we understand that Yehoshuah is the mediator between HaShem and man, who could not formerly preceive the Father, this makes more sense.

Yehoshuah is introduced about verse 14.
One must understand that had John introduced Yehoshuah as God in the beginning, the Jews would have burned the book and left it at that. John is laying a very careful and very Jewish foundation, in the Targums they would have understood, but the anglicanized Church does not.

Later in the book the term sons of God are used to illustrate why he should not be stoned for making himself out to be The son of God. Sons of God is a term used in reference to the people of God to whom the torah is given.
I think it is kind of neat that Yehoshuah our living Torah given to us, makes us sons of God and brings us into the kingdom to come.

I'm just a baby in this study and I'm hoping others have more targums to add here.
bananna

[Bruce101]

Does anyone have any proposed Chiastic structures for John?

There is that word again! Chiastic
I ran across it in the FFOZ and was totally devoid of any understanding.:confused:

It appears to be how a statement is structured, but how one is determined is beyond me.
Bruce

[Sephania]

Thadman or IITB may have touched on this in the past, maybe they can help you?

[Sephania]

Or it may have been koilias but I haven't seen him around lately:scratch:

[talmidim]

Chiastic comes from the word Chiasmus (found @ Websters-Online (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Chiasmus)):Definition: Chiasmus

Chiasmus

Noun

1. Inversion in the second of two parallel phrases.

Source: WordNet 1.7.1 (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/credits/wordnet.html#) Copyright © 2001 by Princeton University. All rights reserved.

Etymology: Chiasmus \Chi*as"mus\, noun. [New Latin expression, from the Greek expression placing crosswise. See Chiasm.]. (Websters 1913 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=word+origins&mode=books))


Commercial Usage: Chiasmus

DomainTitle

Books

Chiasmus Bibliography (reference (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Chiasmus Bibliography&mode=books))
Chiasmus in antiquity : structures, analyses, exegesis (reference (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Chiasmus in antiquity&mode=books))
Chiasmus in the New Testament: A Study in the Form and Function of Chiastic Structures (reference (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Chiasmus in the&mode=books))
Der Chiasmus, ein Beitrag zur Figurenlehre : mit spezieller Berücksichtigung einiger Werke der deutschen Klassik (reference (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Der Chiasmus, ein&mode=books))
Never Let a Fool Kiss You or a Kiss Fool You : Chiasmus and a World of Quotations That Say What They Mean and Mean What They Say (reference (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Never Let a&mode=books))

(more book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword=Chiasmus&mode=books) examples)

[debi b]

Chiasmus is a reversal in the order of words in two parallel phrases as in "he went to the country, to the town went she". This has enormous application in Hebrew poetry. An example of grammatical chiasmus is present in Jer 4:5

Declare in Judah
and in Jerusalem proclaim!

Chiasmus is present in many literatures, being by no means confined to Hebrew poetry. Both Akkadian and Ugaritic use chiasmus, but in neither language is it so developed as in Hebrew.

Chiastic patterns can be either structural in function or expressive. I am not sure what the OP is looking for?

[talmidim]

I do not believe that John 1:1 qualifies as chiasmus. To believe otherwise is bannanas. http://www3.christianforums.com/images/mood/Happy.gif

[Sephania]

Chiasmus is a reversal in the order of words in two parallel phrases as in "he went to the country, to the town went she". This has enormous application in Hebrew poetry.

And it changes the gender as well?:scratch:

[gtsecc]

All of the Gospels seem to be written in Chiasm, and if they are, there are some implications.
1. We can then easily tell if somethign has been added or taken away from them as it will destroy the parallels.
2. The imporant "piece" is not at the end of the story, as we are accoustom to in linear readings, but in the middle.
I posted this question in multiple places because I did not think too may folks would even know what I was asking. We may want to combine this with the same thread I have over in TAW.

[MyLittleWonders]

So, I'm already a little confused, but to add to it ... what's TAW?

[Bananna]

Interesting new idea. Haven't quite grasped its use though. I feel like I'm learning Hiku all over again.
bananna

[Tishri1]

Are you talking about Hebrew Parallelism?

[gtsecc]

Are you talking about Hebrew Parallelism?

I am talking about Chiasm.
Some folks may call it that, but I am not really sure.

[Sephania]

TAW = the "Ancient" Way- the Orthodox forum :)

We are not allowed to post there about this, but would love to talk on it, perhaps GT?

[gtsecc]

TAW = the "Ancient" Way- the Orthodox forum :)

We are not allowed to post there about this, but would love to talk on it, perhaps GT?
I don't think it is at all controversial. I am sure all of us can talk about it over on TAW. I am talking about it on TAW, and I think it is fine.

I am reading Breck book, the Shape of Biblical Language, and I am working on developing a word doc which will have each section highlighted in a different color so the parallels will be easier to see. Then all of us who are interested can trade the document and stry to get an understanding about it all.

[Tishri1]

sounds cool:thumbsup:

[visionary]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and

the Word was with God,
and

the Word was God. Is that a kind of Chiasm?

[The Thadman]

In the Greek, it's:

kai ho logos pros ton theon kai theos én ho logos

There is an apparent flip with theos and logos, but from my grasp of Greek it would come out something like:

And the word was with God, and Godly was the word.

That appears to be rather Chiasmatic :)

Peace!
-Steve-o

[Bananna]

Okay, not the same thing I was thinking of but still cool.

How we gonna get a link to this paper?

My Stern's bible has pages of what is being referenced in the new testament. Every time I read in the new testament I like to read in the Holy Scriptures what they are referring to and find out what the rabbis taught about it.
bananna

[gtsecc]

A John1:1 to 8
B John 1:9 to 11
C John 1:12
B' John 1:13 to 14
A' John 1:15 to 18

That is the Gerhard proposal for a Chiastic patern to the prologue.

I have the whole Gospel color coded according to Gerhard's proposed patern, PM your email to me and I will send it to you if you want.

[Bananna]

I don't see it

[debi b]

And it changes the gender as well?:scratch:

The normal word order would match gender types in Hebrew poetry. While the example that you mentioned here is not Hebrew the one comment I wanted to make is one of the ways that interest and tension are created in Hebrew poetry is to mismatch gender. Nouns in Hebrew (not just pronouns) have gender so when this occurs is it not noticable in a translation. But it will catch your attention when reading it in Hebrew.

[Bananna]

bump
I wanted to revisit this one