Trinity

[beej7]

So along with discovering nearly everything I've learned in church for 50 years is erroneous...now I am reading there is no Trinity. If there is anything here discussing this subject more in depth, can you all point me in the right direction?

Too much truth in too short of time can make one feel like they're in a whirlpool and can't catch their breath.:o

Beej

[Bon]

Too much truth in too short of time can make one feel like they're in a whirlpool and can't catch their breath.:o

Beej


You got that right beej7.

There are many threads on this subject....It comes up fairly regularly and seems to remain a pretty mysterious topic.

I haven't quite figured it out my self.

I'll see what I can find and be back shortly.
Bon

[MyLittleWonders]

I am right there with you beej7! My husband and I often feel we have been whirled around a few too many times and what was up is now down. I too have read a few things that point to there being no trinity. But I've also read recently (it might have even been in the Haggadah) about the Tri-unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, I'm interested to see what comes up here.

[Bon]

Pant! puff! Phew!....
I'm back, and would you believe that I couldnt find the threads I was looking for.

This forum is like a "black hole" you know! Threads fall off into the nether reaches of infinity, never to be found again. ;)

So I found a couple of sites instead.

I would like some opinions of these articles myself...so I can figure it all out too.


http://www.thebreathofgod.com/yeshuayahweh.htm

http://users.tpg.com.au/kapteyn/trinity.htm

Bon

[A_Pioneer]

I reccommend "Who is Jesus" by Dr Roy Blizzard.

It is my contention that you are free to believe as you wish. Just do not add to the Word of God. i. e. do not teach trinity to another, this is where you could be teaching false doctrine, to which there is a penalty. There is no word trinity in any part of the Bible.

[Bruce101]

While I do not believe in thr trinity as it is usually taught, I do believe in a sort of Tri-Unity.
I picture a triangle with "God" in the middle and on each point Creator, Redeemer, Teacher/Comforter. All equal in scope and not seperate from the other. No distinct personalaties (sp) and not a scizophrenic.
This is not difficult for me since I was raised "Oneness" to begin with.
Bruce

[Shimshon]

This term is another example of an analogy. It is not used as a term in the bible because the orignial language did not use latin to refer to the essense of YHVH. The hebrew term would be Echad, a compound unity, same as Elohim. Many making up the One.

The term rapture is akin to the term Jesus. It reveals the speakers frame of reference. Jesus refers to Yeshua but through Hellenistic eyes, the same as rapture refers to the Echad of YHVH, only through Greek eyes. And in this case translated from latin.

It is clear that the Tenakh refers to YHVH's Spirit as indwelling in a person. And it is clear (if eyes have been opened) that Yeshua is the Spirit of YHVH living in a man. That the salvation of YHVH would come about by he himself coming and leading his sheep. More analogies.

There is nothing wrong with the term Jesus if one understands the perspective and uses it in it's proper context, same with rapture. If one uses the term in speaking to those who's perspective is thus, but relays the proper perspective to them, only using their linguistical understanding, would be o.k. (this alone throws me right out of the sacred namer sect) But I prefer to use hebraic terms as I follow a hebraic El.
But it's the deceiption of false church doctrine that veils the truth about the essence of YHVH, his Spirit, and his Salvation.
B'resheet 6:3 ADONAI said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, B'midbar 11:25
ADONAI came down in the cloud, spoke to him, took some of the Spirit that was on him and put it on the seventy leaders. When the Spirit came to rest on them, they prophesied -then but not afterwards.
Judges 3:10 The spirit of ADONAI came upon him, and he judged Isra'el.

6:34 But the Spirit of ADONAI covered Gid'on. He sounded the call on the shofar, and Avi'ezer rallied behind him.

11:29 Then the spirit of ADONAI came upon Yiftach; and he passed through Gil'ad and M'nasheh, on through Mitzpeh of Gil'ad, and from there over to the people of 'Amon.

14:6 The Spirit of ADONAI came powerfully upon Shimshon, and barehanded he tore the lion to pieces as easily as if it had been a young goat.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of ADONAI is upon me; therefore he has anointed me to announce Good News to the poor; he has sent me to proclaim freedom for the imprisoned and renewed sight for the blind, to release those who have been crushed,

Luke 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Ruach HaKodesh will come over you, the power of Ha`Elyon will cover you. Therefore the holy child born to you will be called the Son of God. 3:22 the Ruach HaKodesh came down on him in physical form like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, whom I love; I am well pleased with you." 10:21
At that moment he was filled with joy by the Ruach HaKodesh and said, "Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I thank you because you concealed these things from the sophisticated and educated, yet revealed them to ordinary people. Yes, Father, I thank you that it pleased you to do this. Acts 5:32 We are witnesses to these things; so is the Ruach HaKodesh, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Reading the book of revealation is also a good witness of the power and essence of YHVH.

Many try and pick apart the Truth of YHVH, disecting him into his various parts in a covert attempt by the Adversary to deceive the children of light.

YHVH living in the form of a man is nothing new, but YHVH living AS a man is the prophecy fortold throughout the Torah and the Nevi'im. The Father came as a Man (Son of), Ruach filled YHVH, Son (of Man), Ruach HaKodesh, Echad!!!!

[chunkofcoal]

I've been pondering the "trinity", too, especially since it seems to be a topic of contention among people.
When I first started really reading the Bible, one thing I noticed was there was the Son and there was the Father. :scratch:
But, (still trying to understand!) what I've been pondering the past couple of days is 1Cornithians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in (or "for") Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him." And "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person" (from Hebrews 1:3)
That's as far as I've gotten so far! Anybody else have any insight? :)

[Bon]

I would like some opinions of these articles myself...so I can figure it all out too.


http://www.thebreathofgod.com/yeshuayahweh.htm

Bon

OK maybe this post has been overlooked :cry:

Is the concept on this site heading in the right direction.....please your opinions. :help:

Shalom

[Shimshon]

No rabbi in the history no teacher in the history of Yisrael had ever said before he taught that "I am going to be the living guaranty of what I say, and if the words fail they will have to fail me first"!!! That "I" am the stamp of living guaranty upon it"



When Yeshua speaks to the kehillah He says, “What I am going to say is just like a stamp of approval, it will be done”. There is no faulting of it. When ADONAI says amen, you can plant your feet down upon it. And it doesn’t matter how many intervening years occur between when ADONAI says it and it’s fulfilled. You can stake your life upon it. That’s a rock of truth that will not be sank.



Matt 12:40 Yeshua said, (prior to the stake) "as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be", and in Mark 8:31 He says, " the son of man shall be killed but in 3 days He shall come back to life again"



What was Yeshua saying? He was putting His whole future on the line. He was saying before the stake I am giving you exact word of how I am going to die and rise again. The faithful witness means not only did He speak a faithful word but the word was validated by His resurrection.



The resurrection of Yeshua proves the validity of His word. That He told that He would be raised again. That the resurrection puts a stamp of validity and veracity upon His words and said, "He is the faithful witness, He witnessed before the stake, He witnessed before the burial that He would come forth again.



And if the word is that powerful that would come out of His mouth and witness before He died and rose again. Then the word is powerful enough to bring Him out of the tomb. How powerful the word must be.



You are the One.



He is the faithful witness of ADONAI. He didn’t speak in a theoretical realm and speak truth. He spoke in a realm by which He hung His life upon the word He spoke. He did not divorce His life from the word. His life was hanging upon the validity of His word.



And if right now you’re thinking in your heart, “right now all I have to hang upon is the word”. That’s the greatest hook in the whole universe. Because that’s all Yeshua had to hang onto. Was the validity of the word that said He would come forth from the grave 3 days later. And He did. And that proves the power of the spokeness of His word.



He is the beginning of the creation of ADONAI. That’s been so misconstrued. But it’s the word “arche” and it means “before” the beginning. It means the “origin” it means the cause. It means the motivating principle of all of creation.



It doesn’t mean He “came into” existence. It means He is the beginning of the creation. He is the start of the creation. The creation started from Him. The creation had its origin in Him. And it had its ground of being in Him.



So when He is telling the kehillah that “I am the beginning of the creation of ADONAI”. He is saying everything that originated in the universe had its starting point through my spoken word.



You are the One.

[beej7]

'OK maybe this post has been overlooked :cry: '

I did see it Bon. Unfortunately, it aggravated my confusion. :(

I am 'afraid' of this one. I don't want to get it wrong. It wasn't like (to me, at least) celebrating Christmas in ignorance. I grew up believing the Bible was the inerrant Word of Adonai. I grew up with the Triune G-d. Three in One- Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Not necessarily equal, but with differing 'jobs'...Yeshua was the intercessor, the Redeemer, the Holy Spirit was the Comforter that was sent after the Resurrection--the Comforter who stood along side, together with us. And the Father was that in which All things were made and contained, He was the All in All, His Glory filled the temple and filled Heaven. It was a lot easier to begin a kosher way of life (don't have this down pat, but getting better) than to change or let go of something that I have believed would be heretical if I ever believed differently. It was taught like this: Look at a three leaf clover. It has one stem, three leaves, yet this is only one three leaf clover. How do we unlearn what is so ingrained? :o

Beej

[visionary]

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Know me... seen him.. why.... because they are the same person... there is only one God.Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord...32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

[SpiritPsalmist]

The Lord thy God is ONE God. I think it's the term "trinity", which to some is an implication of 3 Gods, that is the issue.

Here http://mjaa.org/StatementOfFaith.html is the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) says in their statement of faith on the subject:


GOD - We believe that the Shema, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Deut. 6:4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Deut+6:4)), teaches that God is Echad, as so declared: a united one, a composite unity, eternally existent in plural oneness [Gen. 1:1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gen+1:1) (Elohim: God); Gen. 1:26 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gen+1:26) "Let us make man in our image"; Gen. 2:24 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gen+2:24) Adam & Eve were created to be as one flesh (basar echad)], that He is a personal God who created us ( Gen. 1 & 2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gen+1-2)), and that He exists forever in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as mentioned in Romans 8:14-17 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Romans+8:14-17) (Father, Spirit, and Messiah - Son) and Matt. 28:18-20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Matt+28:18-20) (immersing in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
GOD THE FATHER (Abba) - John 6:27b (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+6:27); I Cor 1:3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=I+Cor+1:3); Gal. 1:1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gal+1:1); Rev. 3:5, 21 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rev+3:5,+21); Jer. 3:4, 19; 31:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Jer+3:4,+19,+31:9); Mal. 1:6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Mal+1:6); Matt. 6:9, 32 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Matt+6:9,+32); Luke 10:21-22 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Luke+10:21-22); John 1:14; 4:23; 5:17-26; 6:28-46 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+1:14,+4:23,+5:17-26,+6:28-46); Rom. 8:14-15 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rom+8:14-15).

GOD THE SON (HaBen)


God does have a Son [Ps. 2 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Ps+2); Prov. 30:4-6 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Prov+30:4-6) (cf. Heb. 1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Heb+1)); Luke 12:35-37 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Luke+12:35-37); John 1:29-34, 49; 3:14-18 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+1:29-34,+49,+3:14-18)].

The Son, called Yeshua (Jesus), meaning salvation, came to this world born of a virgin [Isa. 7:14 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Isa+7:14) (cf. Luke 1:30-35 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Luke+1:30-35))].

The Son is God (Deity), and is worshipped as God, having existed eternally [Ps. 110:1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Ps+110:1) (cf. Heb. 1:13 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Heb+1:13)); Isa. 9:6-7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Isa+9:6-7); Matt. 28:18-20 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Matt+28:18-20); Phil. 2:5-11 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Philip+2:5-11); Col. 1:15-19 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Col+1:15-19); Rev. 3:21 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rev+3:21) (Heb. 1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Heb+1) - worshipped by angels); Rev. 4:8, 5:5-14 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rev+4:8,+5:5-14)].

This One is the promised Mashiach (Messiah) of Israel [ Is. 9:6-7; 11:1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Is+9:6-7,+11:1); Dan. 9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Dan+9) (esp. verses 20-26 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Dan+9:20-26)); Isa. 53 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Isa+53); John 1:17, 40-41, 45, 49 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+1:17,+40-41,+45,+49); Mark 8:29 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Mark+8:29)].

He is the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star (Num. 24:17 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Num+24:17); Rev. 22:16 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rev+22:16)).

He is our Passover, the Lamb of God ( I Cor. 5:7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=I+Cor+5:7); Rev. 5 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rev+5); John 1:29 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+1:29)).


GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT (Ruach HaKodesh)


Introduced in Gen. 1:2b (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Gen+1:2).

In the Tenach, the Spirit of God came upon individuals during the times of our forefathers, like Moses, David (see II Sam. 23:1-3 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=II+Sam+23:1-3)), and the Prophets, for the specific purposes.

In the New Covenant, the Messiah, Yeshua, promised His disciples that "the Comforter" would come to them after He was gone, described as the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17, 26 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+14:17,+26)), who was with them and would be in them. Yeshua further declared that the Spirit of Truth, would guide us into all truth and would glorify Him - the Messiah - not Himself (John 16:13-15 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=John+16:13-15)). He empowers us (Acts 1:8 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Acts+1:8)). He seals us [Eph. 1:13; 4:30 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Eph+1:13,+4:30) (see NIV and Jewish New Testatment versions)]. If we have not the Spirit, we are not His (Rom. 8:9 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rom+8:9)). He leads us and teaches us (Rom. 8:14-17 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Rom+8:14-17)). His indwelling enables us to live a godly life. Acts 2:38 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bg?passage=Acts+2:38) says, "Repent, be immersed, and receive the Holy Spirit."

[beej7]

The Lord thy God is ONE God. I think it's the term "trinity", which to some is an implication of 3 Gods, that is the issue.

Here http://mjaa.org/StatementOfFaith.html is the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA) says in their statement of faith on the subject:
[/list]
[/list]

Now this, I understand. So...it is basically terminology...because I do not believe in three, but One. I read in scripture of Abba, Ruach HaKodesh, and Mashiach. There is El Shaddai, J-hovah Jireh, and all the other 'names' of Adonai. But there is only ONE, not many. By George, I think I've got it...I pray so, and I pray He would continue to open my eyes and my heart to the truth only.

Beej

[SpiritPsalmist]

Glad I could help :D

[Shimshon]

By George, I think I've got it...I pray so, and I pray He would continue to open my eyes and my heart to the truth only.

BeejHow blessed you are! For no human being revealed this to you, no, it was Avinu HaBaShamayim.

This is how you unlearn years of skewed teaching. By letting go and letting God. To use a phrase.
No one can receive anything unless it has been given to him from Heaven.

No one can come to me unless the Father -- the One who sent me -- draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day.

It is written in the Prophets, `They will all be taught by ADONAI. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
"I am the light of the world; whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light which gives life."

[Henaynei]

:hug: Quaffer :hug:

[jgonz]

Recently I saw it this way... You see different facets of a diamond when you turn it this way or that way... but it's still just one diamond. Different facets spoke to me.

(Or maybe that's just 'cause I like gemstones. LOL)

[beej7]

Recently I saw it this way... You see different facets of a diamond when you turn it this way or that way... but it's still just one diamond. Different facets spoke to me.

(Or maybe that's just 'cause I like gemstones. LOL)

Sounds better than a three leaf clover! I too will remember facets.

[Tishri1]

OK maybe this post has been overlooked :cry:

Is the concept on this site heading in the right direction.....please your opinions. :help:

ShalomI am not so cut and dry on this issue and also would like to know what everyone else thinks about it too;)

[Tishri1]

Quaffer, I like how you put it. I see a Father I see a son who is just like the Father I see, to me they are the same and yet one is ABBA, and one is ABBA's son, the KING OF MY LIFE

[Bon]

I know that this is going to sound ridiculous, but I'll give it a go. :sorry:

I have difficulty addressing G-d and Yahshua in prayer and conversation because I do not understand who they are. I am even having difficuly reporting this to you because I do not understand them. :confused:

Basically I pray to G-d in the name of Yahshua. But everything inbetween is hazy. I often stumble with my words because of it. I think it has much to do with Titles too.

Who is the Lord? The Father or The Son, or Both?

It is a very confussing and somewhat frustrating issue for me. I feel that it is far from being resolved in my mind.

Does it make any sense? Do any of you feel as confussed and affected by it as I am?

Is it just me? :doh:

Shalom from Bon

[Bruce101]

I pray to God in the name of Yeshua.
If there are any details to be worked out I let God handle.
He knows who we are addressing.
I quit being overly concerned. He know our hearts.
Bruce

[Tishri1]

I know that this is going to sound ridiculous, but I'll give it a go.

I have difficulty addressing G-d and Yahshua in prayer and conversation because I do not understand who they are. I am even having difficuly reporting this to you because I do not understand them.

Basically I pray to G-d in the name of Yahshua. But everything inbetween is hazy. I often stumble with my words because of it. I think it has much to do with Titles too.

Who is the Lord? The Father or The Son, or Both?

It is a very confussing and somewhat frustrating issue for me. I feel that it is far from being resolved in my mind.

Does it make any sense? Do any of you feel as confussed and affected by it as I am?

Is it just me?

Shalom from Bon

Hi Bon:wave:,

Let me see if this is maybe the same ...or close... to what your feeling

I wasn't taught much about the Father in church so when the MJ movement found me, I too didn't relate to Him, then as I began to relate to my ABBA, he just looked to me like Yeshua, so who was He?

Then I started praising them(Father, then Son) only for who I KNEW them to be (it was very simplistic but it worked)

It started out simple:
The Father is creator of the universe, the world, me... "Thank you Father so much for creating me, giving me life, for creating these beautiful things around me (ect)...."

Then He became:

The Father giver of the Torah, bread from the Earth, fruit of the vine, my provider..."Baruch atah YHVH, Elohaynu Melech HaOlam... (this is how I got over the confusion between the two as Jesus use to be these things to me and the Father was distant)Shabbat was so special after I got to know who this Father was to me!

Now:

ABBA is my help, my healer, my provider, the designer of me and my life, my children's ABBA, their creator and provider .....my very breath, and I am positioning myself around Him to serve Him daily! That's what was missing before and why I couldn't get close...I didn't realise He had "Designs on me"
Had a way for me to live, that was so incredible...Just like us with our kids, we are designing their lives too...DUH:doh: no wonder He was such a mystery before.

In the Church Jesus was everything and that was ok as long as that didn't take over God's place in my life (which in my case it did thru lack of knowlege about God while in the church)

Then He Became(after a time in MJ):

Yeshua, my King, my Kinsman Redeemer (that one is huge)...Building a place for us to live forever like a Husband does.

And now also :

The future ruler (King) of this world, the one who rightly divides the Truth in my life, the one who will make us all one someday-unite us, under his banner of Shalom, the Kingdom I want to be pledged to, My teacher, healer, and most of all my example while I wait for the day when He returns to TAKE-OVER this place! He is the one who was/is both High Priest and Corban Offering that made it possible to draw near to the Father....He gives me Gifts, like a groom, while I wait for that day:clap:

I have so much to learn about them and relearn (the right way) but if I stick to just what I do know and relate to them on those terms that are familiar and comfortable then I will be able to draw near to them intimately in those few, simple, but important ways; and as I grow I will learn to relate in more ways too.