Methodist Church Reinstates Lesbian

[Cool CD]

The Methodist Church in Philadelphia has voted on April 29, 2005, to reinstate a lesbian minister who intends to stay active in that lifestyle.

Here's a link to the AP story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7679028/

This happening has an impact on understanding the appeal process in the United Methodist church. Please note the moderator's guidelines on post #4.

[Dad Sr]

The 2004 Book of Discipline for the UMC, Para 304, para 3 states that "self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."

This was affirmed in the 2004 General Conference and has been every year since the
Methodist and the United Brethern came together to form the UMC.

The vote on the 29th was 8-1 in favor of reinstatement. The governing board should be investigated by the General Conference. I do not know what the next legal step will be but according to the Discipline, she cannot receive an appointment this spring. If she does then the Bishop and every DS in that conference should be investigated.

If this issue continues to plague the UMC as it has in other denominations our
numbers will continue to go down, God's message of reconcillation will not be
proclaimed effectively, and this country will continue down the slippery slope it has been on for many, many years.

Dad Sr

[ClementofRome]

...and here we go. Of course, this thread will be shut down right away, but if we who are faced with this are not allowed to speak freely, then this forum is useless. Of course the Book of Discipline and the rulings of the General Conference mean nothing to the powers that seem to be.

May God help us. I agree with Dad Sr! Thank you brother.

[Cool CD]

...and here we go. Of course, this thread will be shut down right away, but if we who are faced with this are not allowed to speak freely, then this forum is useless. Of course the Book of Discipline and the rulings of the General Conference mean nothing to the powers that seem to be.

May God help us. I agree with Dad Sr! Thank you brother.
Here is a link to the United Methodist news service article on the action. http://www.news.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.617879/k.DED2/Appeals_committee_reverses_church_trial_verdict_in_Stroud_case.htm

If you read the article two things jump out.

1. The appeals court found a technical loop hole in the original ruling that they pointed to rather than saying that lesbianism was allowed by the discipline.
2. The lady has said she will not take a church even though she won, until the whole matter is resolved further.

[WesleyJohn]

Moderator Note:

Hey guys!

:)

Let me do some quick checking on something regarding this thread so I can see what we can do. I've been following the story since Friday when it broke, and am surprised that it took so long for a thread to start in here.

While I do some checking, could you please keep the discussion centered on the judicial process, the relationship between the Annual Conference, the Judicial Board, and the General Conference, and the interpretation of the Book of Discipline? (hopefully I got all that right)

Please avoid a discussion centered around the morality of homosexuality.

I know that's a lot to ask, but I think that's the only way I can keep this thread open in a forum other than the forums designated for discussion about homosexuality.

Thanks!

Grace and Peace,

WesleyJohn
Sr. Administrator
Wesley's Parish

[ClementofRome]

Moderator Note:

Hey guys!

:)

Let me do some quick checking on something regarding this thread so I can see what we can do. I've been following the story since Friday when it broke, and am surprised that it took so long for a thread to start in here.

While I do some checking, could you please keep the discussion centered on the judicial process, the relationship between the Annual Conference, the Judicial Board, and the General Conference, and the interpretation of the Book of Discipline? (hopefully I got all that right)

Please avoid a discussion centered around the morality of homosexuality.

I know that's a lot to ask, but I think that's the only way I can keep this thread open in a forum other than the forums designated for discussion about homosexuality.

Thanks!

Grace and Peace,

WesleyJohn
Sr. Administrator
Wesley's Parish

Thank you WJ. I jumped to accuse you guys too soon. My apologies. I know you always want a fair discussion, but it seems as thought these denominational forums that do not allow debate are often too quick to stop debate that actually belongs in the denominational forum. At any rate....thank you.

CofR

[Onesimus85]

:help:

The Methodist Church in Philadelphia has voted on April 29, 2005, to reinstate a lesbian minister who intends to stay active in that lifestyle.

Here's a link to the AP story.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7679028/

This happening has an impact on understanding the appeal process in the United Methodist church. Please note the moderator's guidelines on post #4.

I am disturbed by this issue. It seems like the UMC is not sure what they want. We make a decision saying it is wrong, and then make an exception. It seems as if the UMC basing its decisions on sinking sand.

While Stroud may have said that "she will not take a church" FUMCOG(First United Methodist Church of Germantown), the church that she was at one time the associate pastor of, hired her as staff when she had her credentials as a ordained minister taken away. She has continued to work within the church but not under the appointment of the UMC. So, while she might not accept an appointment I have not doubt that she will be working inside the church in a leadership position. I got this information from a PBS documentary about the issue this past Winter.

I may be jumping to conclusions here, but I believe that if this had taken place in the South Eastern Jurisdiction of the UMC then she would not have won her appeal. Perhaps I am wrong.

I stand beside the 2004 Book of Discipline that Dad Sr. quoted. I also support the original decision of the church courts. However, I would like to say this, the bishop in Pennsylvania is a close friend of Stroud's, as is the senior pastor of FUMCOG. I am not sure what the next step is, but I do believe that there needs to be another trial. Going beyond Pennsylvania and the NE Jurisdiction. I am deeply concerned with the future of the UMC because they cannot seem to make a decision without an appeal. The UMC is beginning to come across as very unstable and unsure in their beliefs as a whole and there future is very unclear at this time.

I have had a problem with fence sitters for a long time, but the fence should not be a place where the world sees the UMC. The recent phrase of America has been "In God We Trust, United We Stand." I think that it is sad that the UMC cannot say the same thing. If we continue to make decisions and then change our minds I am afraid that the rumor of a split in the UMC will become reality.

In closing I would like to say that this issue should not even be debated. The charges brought up against Beth Stroud are clearly violations of the UM Book of Disipline and should not be compromised.

[WiredSpirit]

Well, all I'm going to say is that I strongly support the decision to reinstate Stroud.

The church isn't perfect. Whether you believe this decision was wrong or you believe, as I do, that the Discipline is wrong on this issue, you have to admit that the church isn't perfect.

[Dad Sr]

Well, all I'm going to say is that I strongly support the decision to reinstate Stroud.

The church isn't perfect. Whether you believe this decision was wrong or you believe, as I do, that the Discipline is wrong on this issue, you have to admit that the church isn't perfect.

Let's go one at a time:
The church isn't perfect: TRUE
The Discipline is wrong on this issue: False
I have studied the Discipline, have taken courses on the Discipline, and also read & study the Bible. If the Book of Discipline does not agree w/ scripture, then it should be changed - but it does not disagree with it, so it has not been changed.
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[WiredSpirit]

You're so just asking for a debate.

[sinner/SAVED]

You're so just asking for a debate.

In your opinion, exactly how does the Discipline disagree with scripture?

[sinner/SAVED]

If the Book of Discipline does not agree w/ scripture, then it should be changed - but it does not disagree with it, so it has not been changed.
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

In your opinion exactly how does the Discipline line up with scripture?

[Celticflower]

If the Discipline exists to provide the guidelines for the church, but then these basic rules are overlooked in the decision impacting not only a local church, but the world view of the UMC as a whole, then why does the Discipline exist?

I say follow the book -- it has been put together for a reason, and prayerfully so.

[MoonlightParade]

The decision to reinstate whatserface, is really going to bring the UMC apart. As posted above, we are divide about Sodomites working in the ministry, and well, if you read the teachings of the BOD (Book of Disiplines) then you would know that Homo-sexuals are not to be apointed to ANY leadership position.

"self-avowed practicing homosexuals are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church."
Dad Sr

There is NO way to justify homosexuals in the ministry because it PROHIBITED by the BOD.

[Cool CD]

This can be applied to any dispute with the Discipline, rather than the specific action Stroud is in trouble for. Remember this thread is not about lesbianism.

If a minister does not keep the Discipline, whatever part it may be, does it really matter? It seems like if the church allows minister's to be in good standing who don't follow a clear portion of the Discipline, then it is setting a bad precedent. Does the Discipline have any power or authority? What could a minister do, if anything, to be defrocked? A person's defense could be that another minister did not have to keep portions of the Discipline they didn't like, so why not them. In fact, from a legal standpoint it is clear that once you disregard something in a document then all the other portions are subject to appeal and relegated to "optional" requirements. What makes a thief, heretic, satan worshipper, or drug abuser think they will be held more accountable to the Discipline than a lesbian is. It's a slippery slope we are on.

[Cool CD]

http://www.bethstroud.info/ is a link to a website about the Beth Stroud case. The website is maintained by Beth Stroud's partner, Chris Paige, so it comes from the perspective of disobedience to the Discipline being acceptable.

:confused:

[ClementofRome]

This can be applied to any dispute with the Discipline, rather than the specific action Stroud is in trouble for. Remember this thread is not about lesbianism.

If a minister does not keep the Discipline, whatever part it may be, does it really matter? It seems like if the church allows minister's to be in good standing who don't follow a clear portion of the Discipline, then it is setting a bad precedent. Does the Discipline have any power or authority? What could a minister do, if anything, to be defrocked? A person's defense could be that another minister did not have to keep portions of the Discipline they didn't like, so why not them. In fact, from a legal standpoint it is clear that once you disregard something in a document then all the other portions are subject to appeal and relegated to "optional" requirements. What makes a thief, heretic, satan worshipper, or drug abuser think they will be held more accountable to the Discipline than a lesbian is. It's a slippery slope we are on.

hear! hear!
Thank you.

[WiredSpirit]

In your opinion, exactly how does the Discipline disagree with scripture?

There you go, if I did try to explain this thread would be closed and I'd probably recieve a warning.

[Onesimus85]

Let's try to stick to the guidelines of the case and not start a debate. Thanks for starting the new thread WS, that'll help keep this thread open and let those who want to debate to debate.

[WesleyJohn]

Mod Note:

In addition to not debating the morality of homosexuality here, we need to be very careful that what we say does not bait someone else into that debate.

I did my checking, and my understanding of the rules seems to be correct. I can leave this thread here, as long as it does not become a debate or discussion on the morality of homosexuality.

Here are potential discussion questions which we can use to guide our discussion:


Did the appeals court ruling reflect the current stance of the BoD?

Does the General Conference (Assembly...whatever you guys call it) need to define the words "status" and "practicing homosexual"?

What ramifications does it have for a defrocked minister to be reinstated?

What do you think of the decision of a reinstated/previously defrocked minister to not serve in an ordained capacity (even though she can) until all the appeals have gone through?

What do you believe the ramifications will be in 2008?

What can be done to avoid schism, or are the differences within the denomination too wide to be reconciled?


Those are just a few questions that can be discussed. I would encourage you to think of the many aspects to this news story that don't revolve around the morality of homosexuality and homosexual activity. Feel free to post more questions for discussion.

Grace and Peace,

WesleyJohn
Sr. Administrator
Wesley's Parish

[Onesimus85]

Mod Note:

In addition to not debating the morality of homosexuality here, we need to be very careful that what we say does not bait someone else into that debate.

I did my checking, and my understanding of the rules seems to be correct. I can leave this thread here, as long as it does not become a debate or discussion on the morality of homosexuality.

Here are potential discussion questions which we can use to guide our discussion:


Did the appeals court ruling reflect the current stance of the BoD?
Does the General Conference (Assembly...whatever you guys call it) need to define the words "status" and "practicing homosexual"?
What ramifications does it have for a defrocked minister to be reinstated?
What do you think of the decision of a reinstated/previously defrocked minister to not serve in an ordained capacity (even though she can) until all the appeals have gone through?
What do you believe the ramifications will be in 2008?
What can be done to avoid schism, or are the differences within the denomination too wide to be reconciled?

Those are just a few questions that can be discussed. I would encourage you to think of the many aspects to this news story that don't revolve around the morality of homosexuality and homosexual activity. Feel free to post more questions for discussion.

Grace and Peace,

WesleyJohn
Sr. Administrator
Wesley's Parish

Thanks for your research and guidelines WJ. This will help keep the discussion on topic! :D

[Celticflower]

One of the most immediate ramifications of this case that I see will be the labelling of Methodists in general as hypocrites. We have a set of rules/laws that say one thing, but insist on disregarding those rules. if we can't abide by our own rules how can we expect anyone to take us seriously about what God expects?

[Onesimus85]

One of the most immediate ramifications of this case that I see will be the labelling of Methodists in general as hypocrites. We have a set of rules/laws that say one thing, but insist on disregarding those rules. if we can't abide by our own rules how can we expect anyone to take us seriously about what God expects?

Amen. This is why I think that we will regretfully see a split. We cannot continue to sit on the fence. We must choose if homosexuality is wrong or if it is ok. We cannot afford for unbelievers to look at the UMC and see a church divided.

[sinner/SAVED]

I think that before we talk of splitting that we should find an issue worthy of splitting over. Homosexuality, IMO, is not.

Pride, now there is a sin we can really jump on.

Everyone ready, all together now, 1....2.....3......

JUMP!

[Onesimus85]

I think that before we talk of splitting that we should find an issue worthy of splitting over. Homosexuality, IMO, is not.

Pride, now there is a sin we can really jump on.

Everyone ready, all together now, 1....2.....3......

JUMP!

I appreciate your humor SS. :thumbsup: . I am not saying that we will split because there is sin among the congregation. As Wired Spirit has said the "church is not perfect", however if we cannot agree, and the UMC does need to make a decision, then I think that there will be a split. I pray that there is not and that a decision will be made, but if it cannot then I think there will be a split. This is a very sad time for the UMC and we as a congregation should be praying for God's will to take place in the UMC's future. I do not want to see a split, but I think that if we continue on this path then we will split.

[WesleyJohn]

Can someone explain something to me?

There are "Methodists" around the world, right? Are they part of the UMC, or are they entirely separate? Alternatively, is there a "Methodist Communion" similar to the Anglicans or not?

I ask, because I read on wesleyblog this morning that there was dialogue between British Methodists and UK Anglicans about merging/full communion (or something like that). I'm not entirely sure what the relationship is.

(This connects to the discussion at hand, as I'm curious what (if any) the global ramifications of this decision are).

Grace and Peace,

WJ

[sinner/SAVED]

There are Methodists around the world that are not part of the United Methodist Church. There are United Methodist conferences around the world, also. There is a World Methodist Council of which many Methodist groups are members of, but this is not a governing connection only a fellowship connection. See this (http://www.worldmethodistcouncil.org/) link for more info on the World Methodist Council.

The United Methodist Church resulted from the merger of the Methodist Church and The United Brethren, two U. S. denominations. The church has since expanded globally, but is still primarily a U. S. denomination.

[WesleyJohn]

Thanks for the explanation,

Would I be correct in thinking that the "World Methodist Council" has even less influence over it's membership churches than the "Anglican Communion" has?

[sinner/SAVED]

Here is today's update from the United Methodist News Service:



WASHINGTON (UMNS) — A decision to reinstate a United Methodist pastor who lost her clergy credentials in December under church law concerning the practice of homosexuality "does not in any way reverse the standards in our Book of Discipline," according to the denomination’s Council of Bishops (http://umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=21&mid=5855).

In a statement (http://master.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=7407) issued May 1 as the bishops gathered for their spring meeting in Washington, the council’s executive committee said the April 29 decision of the Northeastern Jurisdictional Committee on Appeals was based on legal error, not lack of evidence. "This means that the reasons for the guilty verdict were not questioned, but the case was reversed on two questions of legal process," the statement said.............

The Council of Bishops encouraged church members "to be patient with the important legal processes involved" and pointed out that the appeal process "is an important part of our Book of Discipline."



Click here (http://www.news.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.621299/k.C22A/Reinstatement_does_not_reverse_churchs_standards_bishops_say.htm) for more information and the full article.

[sinner/SAVED]

Thanks for the explanation,

Would I be correct in thinking that the "World Methodist Council" has even less influence over it's membership churches than the "Anglican Communion" has?

I think that the WMC has very little if any influence over the UMC. If anything it is probably the other way around as the UMC is the largest member of the WMC. (Kind of like the relationship the US has with the UN)

[billychum]

I was saved in the methodist church and truly love the people that I've been going to church with for the last ten years. And I think that I feel the same way a lot of people are feeling regarding this issue. I'm tired of it and I'm not going back. In fact I'm headed to a Bible believing non-denominational church that can among their own deacons decide in a short time what stand the church will take on this issue.
Billy <><

[sinner/SAVED]

There was a great interview in last month's Christiainity Today that had a lot to say about accountability. Here is a quote:


It is flatly unbiblical and heretical for an individual congregation to say, "We'll just be by ourselves and not be accountable to anybody."


He is speaking here about non-denominational churches.

Here (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/004/32.70.html) is the complete interview. It is very thought provoking.

Any thoughts?

[Onesimus85]

BC,
I'm sorry to hear that you will be leaving the UMC. If the Lord is leading you to leave then go where He says.

WJ,
There are many UM that are outside of the U.S. as well. For example, if you ever get the chance to talk to a Wesleyan Methodist of Australia you will see that they are overall very conservative.

This is an excerpt the Wesleyan Methodist of Australia Article II. Articles of Religion:

VII. Marriage and the Family ("")
109. We believe that man is created in the image of God, that human sexuality reflects that image in terms of intimate love, communication, fellowship, subordination of the self to the larger whole, and fulfilment. God's Word makes use of the marriage relationship as the supreme metaphor for His relationship with His covenant people and for revealing the truth that that relationship is of one God with one people. Therefore God's plan for human sexuality is that it is to be expressed only in a monogamous lifelong relationship between one man and one woman within the framework of marriage. This is the only relationship which is divinely designed for the birth and rearing of children and is a covenant union made in the sight of God, taking priority over every other human relationship.

Gen. 1:27-28; 2:18, 20, 23, 24; Isa. 54: 4-8; 62:5b; Jer. 3:14; Ezek. 16:3ff.; Hosea 2; Mal. 2:14; Matt. 19:4-6; Mark 10:9; John 2:1-2, 11; I Tim. 5:14; I Cor. 9:5; Eph. 5:23-32; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 19:7-8."

They are not part of the United Methodist Church, however, they are very much a part of Wesley's parish.

[billychum]

Good article but I've seen similar before. There are many denominations feeling threatened right now by non-denominational churchs. And if anyone has an accountability issue right now, it's the UMC.
Billy <><

[Celticflower]

Billychum,--I happen to be attending a non-denom now, and I think you may find many things that will be hard to swallow as a Methodist. The way pastors are picked can be quite tedious (8 weeks of sermons on the same passage of scripture by 8 different people *YAWN*), you may be expected to submit to a re-baptism in order to join the congregation-until you do you may be looked at as less of a Christian or not one at all by many of the members, many non-denoms equate baptism by immersion with salvation.
So why do I continue to attend? Because it is my husband's decision to go there and the kids back him up because they have many friends there. Yes, I could go to a church on my own, but the family guilt trip is a bit tough to bear each week. I do have friends there, some who still want to "convert" me, and most of the sermons are enlightening (but you will want to make sure you read the surrounding scripture the sermon is based on) and it is an ok place to be. But I am still a Methodist.

[billychum]

Thanks 85. I've visited a Wesleyan church here and enjoyed it very much. I think at this point in my life I'm burnt on the whole pecking order of decision making in the UM denomanation. This is not the only reason I'm leaving but it's enough.

[Onesimus85]

I understand. May God bless you BC. Keep working for the Lord.

[billychum]

Celtic
I've checked this church out quite a bit and the baptisim to enter is not the case. But I'm sure that there will be some adjustments. I know what you mean about the kids, have a wife and two sons 18yrs. and 13yrs. my sons are comfortable where they are. My wife thinks it's time to leave but we are both struggling trying to keep our families intrest and needs in mind. God has never let us down and I don't expect he will now.
Billy <><

[Celticflower]

This was posted in another area
http://www.news.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.650267/k.B6EF/Eastern_Pennsylvania_Conference_to_appeal_Stroud_decision.htm

It is about the conference appealing the decision.

[MoonlightParade]

Where do they people reinstating the Minester getting their authority other than the Bible /Book of Dis?

[WiredSpirit]

Unfortunately she only won her appeal by a technicality. You can read the text of the decision here: http://www.news.umc.org/atf/cf/{808166EA-5A43-4F52-8B7D-7473402BB5A9}/stroud_decision.pdf.

[Cool CD]

The church is like a civil court. Sometimes people who are guilty go free on a technicality. Can they retry her? This is more of a look at technicality problems than homosexuality.

[WiredSpirit]

Do you not think she's been through enough already? The fact that she did not exercise her clergy credentials while this was going on shows a lot of grace and dignity. The congregation kept her on staff, which should tell you she is well recieved there. Can you imagine the emotional pain she must have went through being stripped of her credintials just because she's gay?

Imagine if your employer found out something personal about you, and fired you because of it.

[Celticflower]

Allowing her to keep her credentials even though she is violating church law sets a bad precedence. Just because she chose not to be active as a member of the clergy does not insure that the next person involved in such a case will.

[Dad Sr]

Hi, FUMCOG hired her as staff right after she lost her credentials. The problem is not only with the "issue" of ordination of practicing homosexuals, but of an isolated local church thinking they are an autonomous congregation when we are a connectional congregation!!!! FUMCOG has a history of social activism. Not necessarily a bad thing.

However, I HAVE NOT HEARD THE NAME OF MY SAVIOR, JESUS, MENTIONED ONE TIME

DURING THIS CONVERSATION. We are here to serve Christ.

Let's continue this talk......Dad Sr

[billychum]

I think that until the UMC decides to take a stand, then this issue will never go away. And I don't mean take a stand by the way of the book of discipline, I mean take a stand from the pulpit. We have a reputation of being a denomanation that can not make up it's mind, and we deserve it.
Billy <><

[Onesimus85]

Do you not think she's been through enough already? The fact that she did not exercise her clergy credentials while this was going on shows a lot of grace and dignity. The congregation kept her on staff, which should tell you she is well recieved there. Can you imagine the emotional pain she must have went through being stripped of her credintials just because she's gay?

Imagine if your employer found out something personal about you, and fired you because of it.

I want to focus on what i highlighted from WS' quote. According to the PBS documentary that aired this past winter Stroud was in a personal moral struggle about whether she could be a homosexual and a clergy member at the same time. FUMCOG embraced her homosexuality. Obviously, this church went against the UM disapline and mislead her as well.

As for if my employer knew it was not ok to, lets say be a
habitual gossiper, but knew that i did it and they were opk with it, then yes it would be hard for me when/if i got fired. However, if my employer knew that i acted this way and embraced it, then his employer would most likely fire him for knowingly making the bad decision to hire me. So, as Dad Sr. has suggested I think also think that...


The governing board should be investigated by the General Conference. I do not know what the next legal step will be but according to the Discipline, she cannot receive an appointment this spring. If she does then the Bishop and every DS in that conference should be investigated.

I would add that the pastor that was over FUMCOG at the time that Stroud was there should also be investigated. Personal opinion, if there was a legal way to do it I would remove the members of the SPRC as well for making the decision to hire her as staff.

[Onesimus85]

"Bishop Marcus Matthews, who presides over the church’s Eastern Pennsylvania Annual (regional) Conference, announced May 3 that he was authorizing legal counsel 'to proceed immediately with filing an appeal with the Judicial Council of the United Methodist Church.' "
( http://www.news.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.650267/k.B6EF/Eastern_Pennsylvania_Conference_to_appeal_Stroud_decision.htm )

[desert_island_1]

I am having similar problems to what it seems some of you are: I want to leave myshcurch (and go to another Naz. one) but my mom won't let me because we have been going there for 9 years.

[billychum]

I know what you mean desert island. I have a son that's 13 and he likes the church that we are at. I hope things work out for you. God Bless.
Billy <><

[WiredSpirit]

I am having similar problems to what it seems some of you are: I want to leave myshcurch (and go to another Naz. one) but my mom won't let me because we have been going there for 9 years.

Uhm... okay...?

Isn't this thread about Beth Stroud?

[MoonlightParade]

yes lets stay on topic, lets talk about what Beth's reinstation will do to the United Methodist Church as a whole....

[WiredSpirit]

The news coverage of this story has undoubtedly hurt our reputation of "open hearts, open doors, open minds." Hopefully, the positive press that Stroud has been reinstated will make our church seem a little more welcoming to GLBT people.

[Celticflower]

Just because we do not discrimminate against gays and lesbians being part of the congregation does not mean we welcome them in the pulpit. The doors are still open.

[sinner/SAVED]

:thumbsup:

Our hearts, minds, and doors are wide open. Our pulpit is open only to those who meet the standards set by the Discipline.

[MoonlightParade]

So what about the gays that want to be deacons, clergy, and things of that nature? Doesnt the Bible have clear cut details about what the people trying for these positions, must be? Oh, sorry i forgot the Bible is mistranslated, and we should just go on our gut? I believe that the bible is the Only direct source of Authority. What it says goes, and it says that homosexuals are sinners, and that they can not be a part of the clergy. now what makes them different from other Christian sinners, is choice. Homosexuals dont see anything wrong with how their sexual orientation, even though it is forbidden in the Old and New Testament, so they just keep on sinning, even though they dont see their actions as sin.

[sinner/SAVED]

So what about the gays that want to be deacons, clergy, and things of that nature? Doesnt the Bible have clear cut details about what the people trying for these positions, must be?

Not that I can find.


Oh, sorry i forgot the Bible is mistranslated, and we should just go on our gut?
No.

I believe that the bible is the Only direct source of Authority. What it says goes,
Our beliefs are based on Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Relying on any one alone will most times lead us astray.

and it says that homosexuals are sinners, and that they can not be a part of the clergy
Sinners, yes. Cannot be members of clergy? I don't think you'll find that in scripture.

. now what makes them different from other Christian sinners, is choice. Homosexuals dont see anything wrong with how their sexual orientation, even though it is forbidden in the Old and New Testament, so they just keep on sinning, even though they dont see their actions as sin

Gossips don't see anything wrong with their slanderous orientation, even though it is forbidden in the Old and New Testament, so they just keep on sinning, even though they don't see their actions as sin.



Are gossips to be forbidden to be clergy?

[billychum]

Gossips don't see anything wrong with their slanderous orientation



Is there such a thing as slanderous orientation?
Billy <><

[sinner/SAVED]

I know a few who are definitely oriented toward slander. :)

[Onesimus85]

The news coverage of this story has undoubtedly hurt our reputation of "open hearts, open doors, open minds." Hopefully, the positive press that Stroud has been reinstated will make our church seem a little more welcoming to GLBT people.

Indeed the news coverage has hurt the reputation of the UMC. However, I believe that the UMC needs to be "more loving and less tolerant". We do not need to compromise the beliefs grounded in the Bible and in the Disipline. If we compromise then we can no longer call ourselves UM, because we do not hold to the UM doctrine.

[Onesimus85]

Hopefully, the positive pressthat Stroud has been reinstated will make our church seem a little more welcoming to GLBT people.

Positive press? Perhaps to the GLBT community, but not to all UM or all Christians.

[e=mv^2]

Hopefully, the positive pressthat Stroud has been reinstated will make our church seem a little more welcoming to GLBT people.

This incredibly negative press is keeping people out of the pews. I will not be attending a UMC Church. I was raised methodist. I went to a private methodist college. Called myself methodist for years. I can no longer do so. This whole fiasco has me looking elsewhere.

So what about the gays that want to be deacons, clergy, and things of that nature? Doesnt the Bible have clear cut details about what the people trying for these positions, must be?

Not that I can find.

Here you go

1TIM 3
I Timothy 3

1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This issue for me is not just with Ms. Stroud. I am just as broken as anyone else, thank goodness it is not my job to judge anyone. The issue is the Book of Discipline. It is no longer worth the paper it is written on in my opinion.

[Dad Sr]

The Bishop of the Eastern Penn. Conference has authorized an Appeal. They will not meet until October. Let us all pray for the UMC, the process, the people involved, and the state of God's Church.

[Onesimus85]

amen :prayer:

[Texas Lynn]

If this issue continues to plague the UMC as it has in other denominations our numbers will continue to go down, God's message of reconcillation will not be proclaimed effectively, and this country will continue down the slippery slope it has been on for many, many years.

What slippery slope is this?

[Texas Lynn]

Well, all I'm going to say is that I strongly support the decision to reinstate Stroud.

Ditto.

[Texas Lynn]

What do you think of the decision of a reinstated/previously defrocked minister to not serve in an ordained capacity (even though she can) until all the appeals have gone through?

She's incredibly gracious, but so is Gene Robinson on the Episcopal side. Both have shown significant dignity in the face of the attacks on them, following the manner in which Jackie Robinson became the first African-American in major league baseball. Robinson "turned the other cheek" in the face of attacks, as they have.

What do you believe the ramifications will be in 2008?
Obviously it's going to be a big fight, but even without this case, it probably would've been. The religious right elements within the UMC are quite well-organized. It is possible procedures may be adopted prohibiting use of cell phones and walkie talkies on the floor and in the hall.


What can be done to avoid schism, or are the differences within the denomination too wide to be reconciled?
Perhaps the dust will have settled on the Episcopal situation and that will serve as some sort of precedent. They are certainly doing excellent work to get to reconciliation. They have certainly learned a major obstacle to progress is ignorance. People who view oppressed people as "the other" will certainly have multiple opportunities to grow. Some of the sturm and drang over the issue of sexual orientation in the public sphere may have subsided by then (2008).

[WiredSpirit]

Thanks TL

The far-right in our denomination is aging, and their bigotry is dying off as they are. Its the same with the rest of the country, really. Polls during the last presidential election showed a fair majority of 18-24 year olds had no objection to gay marriage, while a majority in every other age group did. This should be some indicator of where public opinion is going on this issue.

[sinner/SAVED]

The far-right in our denomination is aging, and their bigotry is dying off as they are. Its the same with the rest of the country, really. Polls during the last presidential election showed a fair majority of 18-24 year olds had no objection to gay marriage, while a majority in every other age group did. This should be some indicator of where public opinion is going on this issue.

I am not right-wing, old, or bigotted, but I do believe that public opinion is not an indication of biblical truth. I do not have any cares at all about who the state allows to be married. I do have strong convictions that the church should not allow any marriages that are not biblical. I do think that the church has a responsibility to disallow unrepentant sinners in the pulpit. The issue is not necessarily one of sexual activity, but of sinful activity. I don't think unrepentant thieves, adulterers, or liars should be allowed to preach either. The key word there being "unrepentant".

[Celticflower]

I am not right-wing, old, or bigotted, but I do believe that public opinion is not an indication of biblical truth. I do not have any cares at all about who the state allows to be married. I do have strong convictions that the church should not allow any marriages that are not biblical. I do think that the church has a responsibility to disallow unrepentant sinners in the pulpit. The issue is not necessarily one of sexual activity, but of sinful activity. I don't think unrepentant thieves, adulterers, or liars should be allowed to preach either. The key word there being "unrepentant".


:amen: and :amen:

[rosemoss]

I've been lurking and keeping up with your discussion.

And I want to give a mighty AMEN! to what sinner/SAVED just said,

"The issue is not necessarily one of sexual activity, but of sinful activity."

rosemoss

[Dad Sr]

What slippery slope is this?

Psalm 35:6 speaks of slippery places, however; the "slippery slope" of sin and compromise has always been an issue in the church. There has always been
someone willing to twist the Word of God to justify there sin. I've been Methodist for over 47 years (I do not have an issue with peoples age, OK)
and was a member of the MYF before the U got added to the front. The big issue of the day was school desegregation and forced busing. Most - not all -but most UM Conferences went through this transition very well. Traditionally Black Methodist churches also became part of the UMC.
The issue was race.

What the GLBT crowd have been trying to do is equate there "struggle" with the civil rights movement that people of minority races have been fighting gallantly for years.

Do not put the issue of sin, ie the slippery slope, with the civil rights movement that continues today !!

Not bad for a Right Winger

:D

[Diane_Windsor]

I ask, because I read on wesleyblog this morning that there was dialogue between British Methodists and UK Anglicans about merging/full communion (or something like that). I'm not entirely sure what the relationship is.

Do you have a link for that??? I'd be pleased if UK Methodists reconcile with the Church of England-I'm sure John Wesley would be pleased as well ;)

Diane
:)

[Diane_Windsor]

Perhaps the dust will have settled on the Episcopal situation and that will serve as some sort of precedent. They are certainly doing excellent work to get to reconciliation. They have certainly learned a major obstacle to progress is ignorance. People who view oppressed people as "the other" will certainly have multiple opportunities to grow. Some of the sturm and drang over the issue of sexual orientation in the public sphere may have subsided by then (2008).

:scratch: Ok, perhaps I missed it, but what's in 2008 (besides the US Presidential Election)?

dw
:wave:

[WiredSpirit]

:scratch: Ok, perhaps I missed it, but what's in 2008 (besides the US Presidential Election)?

dw
:wave:

Uhm, how about the UMC general conference?

IMO, as a gay activist in the UMC, I think we should be more worried about changing the attitudes of those in our individual congregations, especially small, rual ones. We keep going to the top to get what we want and its just causing backlash. There was a program started in the Episcopal Church a few years ago called "Changing Attitudes" that focused on doing just what I said. Look how much further it got them.

[sinner/SAVED]

I'll say it again:
Public opinion or "changed attitudes" does not equate with biblical truth. We cannot change the definition of sin so as to overlook certain sins that are ok according to public opinion.

[Dad Sr]

Uhm, how about the UMC general conference?

IMO, as a gay activist in the UMC, I think we should be more worried about changing the attitudes of those in our individual congregations, especially small, rual ones. We keep going to the top to get what we want and its just causing backlash. There was a program started in the Episcopal Church a few years ago called "Changing Attitudes" that focused on doing just what I said. Look how much further it got them.

Yes, it's General Conference.
What I'm concerned about is our "general attitude".

You - gay activist - would have those small rural congregations believe that
all sins - except homosexuality -are wrong ? Is that what you are trying to say ?

I'm not trying to get off subject. The Beth Stroud trial is continuing because
Bishops voted there own personal agendas instead of following the rules they
promised to uphold when they were ordained. If you swear an oath - keep it.
If you no longer want to keep it - get out.

The 1948 Book of Discipline does not even mention homosexuality, nor does the 1960 or the 1968 Discipline of the UMC (1st one!).

I have already mentioned that The Church has always been under attack,
it will continue to happen until Jesus Himself returns for His Church. My prayer
IS for reconcilliation, for people to have a real & growing relationship with the
Creator of us all, and that those living in and w/ sin - will be sanctified and grow towards perfection and live in Holiness, that all we say and do will bring glory to God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't follow your own agenda, follow what He has called you to do. If you have not heard that call, spend extra time in prayer and meditation, seek after His will and not what the world would have you do.

I really hope you have a great weekend !!!!

Dad Sr

[Dad Sr]

I'll say it again:
Public opinion or "changed attitudes" does not equate with biblical truth. We cannot change the definition of sin so as to overlook certain sins that are ok according to public opinion.

Thank You !!!!!!

:amen: & :amen:

Dad Sr

[AndyM]

Do you have a link for that??? I'd be pleased if UK Methodists reconcile with the Church of England-I'm sure John Wesley would be pleased as well ;)

Diane
:)

Diane,

I think you can find the information you want here...

http://www.methodist.org.uk/index.cfm?fuseaction=news.content&cmid=106

Hope that helps

Andy

[WesleyJohn]

:wave:

Hi all!

It looks to me like we've wandered into areas that we're not permitted to go in this forum.

I'm closing this thread, simply so it doesn't grow further. I'll take a closer look at it tonight and the moderating staff will decide if it can be: a) cleaned and reopened, b)reopened as is, c)moved to another forum, d) remain here and locked, or e) deleted altogether.

Yeah...there are probably other options, but those are the most apparent ones.

My hope is that we would be able to reopen the thread in here, but that can only happen if I remove all posts which debate the morality of homosexual activity.

Grace and Peace,

WesleyJohn
Sr. Admin
Wesley's Parish