Sign of the Cross

[Globalnomad]

Friends, I'm watching the Coptic Easter service on Egyptian TV and am surprised to note that the deacons are blessing themselves left-to-right, like us Catholics. Don't you bless yourselves right-to-left, like the Eastern Orthodox?

[CopticGirl]

We do it the same way our Catholic brothers and sisters do--left to right.

This snipit here, from Coptichymns.net describes why we do it that way:

With the fingers, make the sign of the cross from above down and from left to right. Making the sign of the cross is to cast the devils away because Christ said: "(if) by the finger of God I cast out the devils..." It is from above down because He came down from heaven. It is also from left to right because He transferred us from the left (evil) to the right (righteousness). Also, we make the sign of the cross because the cross was the tool by which Christ completed our salvation. And remember as you make the sign of the cross the grace given to us by Him who was crucified for us.

I hope this help explains it. Do you guys go left to right for another reason?

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[Globalnomad]

We do it the same way our Catholic brothers and sisters do--left to right.

This snipit here, from Coptichymns.net describes why we do it that way:

With the fingers, make the sign of the cross from above down and from left to right. Making the sign of the cross is to cast the devils away because Christ said: "(if) by the finger of God I cast out the devils..." It is from above down because He came down from heaven. It is also from left to right because He transferred us from the left (evil) to the right (righteousness). Also, we make the sign of the cross because the cross was the tool by which Christ completed our salvation. And remember as you make the sign of the cross the grace given to us by Him who was crucified for us.

I hope this help explains it. Do you guys go left to right for another reason?

God Bless,
Elizabeth
Thanks, ELizabeth. No, I don't know of any other reason. We should perhaps ask our EO brothers and sisters the meaning of doing it right-to-left.

[erinipassi]

Hi Everyone,

Great Post Elizabeth!

As Elizabeth said, from left to right symbolises how Christ transferred us from darkness to light or righteousness. In the Coptic St. Basil Liturgy, the priest prays:

“and finally You appeared to us, we who are living in darkness and the shadow of death, Through Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, Who is of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin saint Mary……Incarnated and became man, and taught us the way of salvation. He granted us the grace of the rebirth from above, through the water and the Spirit. He made us a united people unto Him and purified us through Your Holy Spirit.” http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/Stbaslt.pdf (http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/Stbaslt.pdf)

So this purification or sanctification is what is meant by righteousness. It is more accurate to say, that we do it from left to right because he transferred us from darkness to His Light. The reason why the right side symbolises His righteousness or His light is because we see in the bible several verses that point to this:

The LORD said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." (Psalm 110: 1)

According to Your name, O God, So is Your praise to the ends of the earth; Your right hand is full of righteousness. (Psalm 48:10)

“I have set the LORD always before me; Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.” (Psalm 16: 8)

“Show Your marvelous lovingkindness by Your right hand, O You who save those who trust in You From those who rise up against them.” (Psalm 17:7)

Now I know that the LORD saves His anointed; He will answer him from His holy heaven with the saving strength of His right hand. (Psalm 20: 6)

Finally, Jesus himself talks about how the left hand symbolises darkness or evil and the right hand symbolises light or righteousness when he says in Matthew 25:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'

"Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' And the King will answer and say to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'

"Then they also will answer Him, saying, "Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' Then He will answer them, saying, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25: 31-46)


love and blessings
erini :)

[domi]

GHEZ Erini lol...That's relayyyyyyyy long......lol. I'm sure it has great information u cuz u rock my world but...taht's RELAYYYYYYYYYYY long. Lol. Can u sumerizie for me so i dun have to read the whole thing?:sleep: lol. Just thinking about the though of that lol. :kiss: U know u love u lol. Summeray plzzzzzz :D

Thank you momyyyyy hehehehhe

[domi]

afater though..how do u make the sign of the corss n e way...and what way is left...lol...i feal so blond...is it left sholder to right shoulder cuz i'm sure or is ur tummy involed somewhere in there too. it just doesn't seam compleate.

[Xpycoctomos]

I know I've read reasons as to why we do it right to left. In all honesty though, while I believe that these reasons given for why we do this or that are beautiful and useful, I think that these are often reasons attiributed to the symbol or action AFTER the fact. The right to left, left to right thing is so entrenched in history and culture, I don't think we know why it actually STARTED. The reasons often may be mundane and uninteresting. Later, sybolism and meaning is given to it. It's like the number of frays on a monks belt... there is now a compkcated explanation behind the number of frays or knots that are on a monks belt, but it wasn't always that way.

It's not to say that these meanings aren't important... but in this case I highly doubt this is actually WHY it all started.

John

[Xpycoctomos]

Interesting story. When I was studying abroad, I met some Polish students. They asked me what religion I was and I said I was "Orthodox". they were confused because they knew I went to weekly Mass at a Catholic Church. I couldn't figure out why they were confused. I told them that while I don't agree with everything Catholic, they do believe in the same God and we have a lot in common and being that the nearest Orthodox Church was a 6-hour bus ride away, it was next best thing. They then asked me if I had to wear my special hat when I went to Mass. i was so confused... special hat? It finally came out that they thought I was Orthodox Jewish! lol I then explained to them that I was Orthodox CHRISTIAN. They laughed hard. They explained to me that they call Jewish people "Orthodox" and Orthodox Christians
"Rightys" (not even as a cute nickname... it's just what we're called) because we cross from right to left ;) lol

John

[CopticGirl]

John,
You know you're probably right about the explainations of making the sign of the cross coming after the fact. I wouldn't doubt it. And I doubt doing it one way makes it any less "valid" than doing it the other day.

As for your "orthodox" story. I am not surprised. When people ask me what religion I am, I would say "Coptic Orthdox" and I would get these responses, Your Jewish? ...or What is that?

Now, just to make life easier I usually just say I am Orthodox Christian. Yet, nevertheless I still get the "What is that?" response on occasion.

Domi,
When making the sign of the cross, you use your right hand to touch your forhead, then you tummy, left shoulder and right shoulder...(or of course right then left if you're eastern orthodox--as we've been discussing :) ).

God Bless.

[Irish Melkite]

Friends, I'm watching the Coptic Easter service on Egyptian TV and am surprised to note that the deacons are blessing themselves left-to-right, like us Catholics. Don't you bless yourselves right-to-left, like the Eastern Orthodox?

Nomad,

Here's the rundown:

Left to Right -

All Oriental Orthodox (Armenian, Copt, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syriac, Syro-Malankara Orthodox, Syro-Malabarese Orthodox)
All Oriental Catholics (again, Armenian, etc)
Maronite Catholics
Latin Catholics
Old Catholics
Polish National Catholics
Anglicans (High Church)
Lutherans (High Church)

Right to Left -

Eastern Orthodox (All Churches)
Byzantine Catholics (All Churches)
Assyrian Church of the East
Ancient Church of the East
Chaldean Catholic Church

There are various manners of configuring the fingers.

Many years,

Neil

[CopticGirl]

Neil,

I'm always amazed at your wealth of knowledge. :)

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[Xpycoctomos]

How do you guys do the fingers? We put our thumb and two first fingers together (for the trinity) and the last two fingers touch our palm for the two natures of Christ. Desptie my earlier post, I do believe that the finger configurations have intended meaning behind them... at least to a point. It just seems more intentional.

John

[erinipassi]

Hi John,

Perhaps in the Eastern Orthodox the meaning of the sign of the cross may have been an afterthought, but its different in the Coptic Orthodox. In the Coptic Orthodox Church everything has a meaning and when they teach the children to make the sign of the cross, they always tell them why we do it this way. When the Early Holy Fathers used to teach the simple folk in Egypt, they used to help them remember which way it goes (left to right) by reminding them of the meaning that we were transformed from darkness to His light or righteousness. The Holy Fathers made the sign of the cross from left to right because of the enormous biblical reference to the symbol of left and right.

The fingers are the same, the first three finger including the thumb symbolise theTrinity and are held together to the forehead.

love and blessings
erini

[Xpycoctomos]

Well, I think you misunderstood my posts a little bit, but not totally. In my first post I was saying that there is a tendancy in Orthodoxy to act as if everything has intrinsic meaning to it. I am not convinced that this is so all of the time (Oriental or Eastern). On the one hand, I do believe that the way we put our fingers is indeed BASED on an intentional meaning (the three fingers being the trinity and , for us, the two fingers being the two natures of Christ). But I am not convinced that the direction in which we cross ourselves always had a set meaning behind it. I mean, you had to pick one way or the other, right to left, left to right... not much choice there. It is interesting that some Christian traditions tended towards one way, while other Christian traditions tended towards another. There had to be a time when it was not formalized (right to left or vice versa) and only later became formulized and then given meaning. I could be wrong on this specific example, and perhaps from day one, when Saint Paul crossed himself a certain way he gave every little detail of how he crossed himself meaning.

In the Liturgy, during the Creed, the priest shakes this cloth over it. We are told that that is supposed to represent the earthquake that took place after Christ's death on the Cross. It SEEMS however, that this was actually a method of keeping the flies out of the chalice in the olden days. Now, it has been given beautiful meaning, and this is good, for when I see it I don't think about flies, I think about the impact Christ's death had on nature and everything that naturally flows from that. There is no problem wiht meaning coming as an afterthought, it's not a sign of imperfection but rather a sign of the fact that our Church is constantly striving to see God, even in the mundane.

John

[erinipassi]

Hi John,

On one hand, you feel its ok to believe that three fingers coming together means trinity but on the other hand, you believe that the sign of the cross is an afterthought for example. In the Coptic Church when they come to make something, like for example build a Church, the Holy Fathers specified that the top of the Church must be a dome to symbolise heaven because a dome is circular has no beginning and no end. So you see that in Coptic Churches as well as other Churches having a dome on the top of the Church. This is not an afterthought. Nor is the sign of the Cross in our Church is an afterthought or anything in the Coptic Church is an afterthought.....but you are free to say that about your Eastern Orthodox Church since you have studied Eastern Orthodox.

I believe its incorrect to state that it's an afterthought in the Coptic Church because you are making a personal assumption without reading Coptic sources in order to understand the validity of what we say. Secondly, this tradition dates back to early Christianity. It's a bit like if I say that the sign of the cross of the Eastern Orthodox is an afterthought without having studied Eastern Orthodoxy from Eastern Orthodox sources.

In any case it's not an issue with me which way the Eastern Orthodox do it, but I really feel no one can claim knowledge about the Coptic Church Practises without reading coptic sources. It's a bit like a protestant claiming knowledge about Orthodoxy from protestant sources, how accurate would that be?

Please forgive me John if I have come a bit too strong about this, but I am very tired of people claiming they know everything about the Coptic Church when they haven't even studied properly all our coptic sources. What applies in the Eastern Orthodox Church cannot be assumed to be the same in the Coptic Orthodox Church without confirming with a coptic person or literature first.

love and blessings
erini

[minasoliman]

Dear John,

I don't have any sources with me, but I can tell you that I've been taught from Sunday School the same thing, thumb, index, and middle fingers together representing the Trinity, and two fingers representing humanity and divinity of Christ.

As for the left to right or right to left issue, I would be interested if you did some research on it; I was always interested in why we were different, although Roman Catholics resemble our way.

Xrictoc anecti!

[Xpycoctomos]

I haven't really and I could be wrong in this particular instance. The finger configuration, though, I do beleive has always had intentional meaning behind it (but one example of where the meaning given to it may have been an afterthought is whne I was told that not only do the two fingers represent the humanity and divinity of Christ, but even the very fact that they "come down to our palm" represents Christ's coming down to earth. This is a beatiful symbolism attributed to that action... but something tells me that perhaps that meaning was attributed after the fact... i could be wrong).

In the end, I was only bringing this up for interests sake. It really doesn't matter if the meaning has always been there or not. The important thing is that the action is used to safeguard Orthodoxy, whether the meaning attributed happened as an afterthought or not.

John

[Irish Melkite]

Elizabeth,

Thanks for the kind words, but I can't take full credit for knowing this. An
Armenian Orthodox friend, who posts with me on several forums, recently asked the same question on OC.net (probably to add the info to his wonderful website). Given a bit of time, I would have come up with what he needed, but the combined efforts of a few of us there pulled it together in no time.

John,

Actually, most historians agree that the finger configurations trace back to early times in all of the Apostolic Churches and were used as a means of demonstrative teaching/reminder of various theological truths - much as tradition says that Holy Patrick used the shamrock to illustrate the Trinity.

Erini,

Very nice explanation of the reasons for the right to left usage by the Copts and other Oriental Churches.

Mina,

The usage by the Latin Catholics was originally right to left, as is done by the Eastern Orthodox. In fact, Pope Innocent III, in the thirteenth century, explicitly directed that it be done right to left. For the Latins, the change occurred as a result of the congregation mirroring the actions of the priest as he blessed them. In the Oriental Churches, though, the usage appears to have always been left to right.

For those who bless themselves right to left, one explanation is that the right shoulder was touched first because the Son sits at the right hand of the Father, and the right represents good while the left represents evil. Erini's explanation of the Copt reason for left to right is essentially that put forth by all the Oriental Churches.

Not sure who asked about the conformation of the fingers, but for almost all it involves the thumb and first two fingers joined to represent the Trinity, with the last two fingers curled into the palm to suggest the two Natures. However, the Ethiopians (and, I think the Eritreans as well) do the obverse, joining the index finger to the thumb to indicate the One Incarnate Nature and bending the other three to symbolize the Trinity.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it (and I beg the indulgence of my Copt brethren in speaking for their traditions) but I am also aware of a traditional Copt practice of signing solely with the thumb. Although not common, I understand that it is still done by some - I have no idea what the significance is of doing so.

Just as a matter of interest, the Russian Old Believers or Old Ritualists don't use the Trinitarian invocation in signing themselves; rather, they recite the Jesus Prayer.

Many years,

Neil

[Padraig]

Elizabeth,

Just as a matter of interest, the Russian Old Believers or Old Ritualists don't use the Trinitarian invocation in signing themselves; rather, they recite the Jesus Prayer.

Many years,

Neil

I would add here that part of the Old Believer schism was due in part to the changing of the Russian Church of the two-finger signing to the three-finger signing that was the custom in Greece. They do in fact sign themselves the same way today (I think there are still a few left in Russia).

padraig

[Irish Melkite]

(I think there are still a few left in Russia).

Padraig,

Actually, there are quite a few left in Russia, chiefly Orthodox, but there is reportedly also one Byzantine Russian Catholic Old Ritualist community. There are also a number of US communities; these include a diocese headquartered in Erie, PA, and another in Oregon, as well as smaller communities in Canada and Alaska.

Many years,

Neil

[minasoliman]

I never knew the Ethiopian tradition. But I did learn from two Coptic churches so far the same position as the Greeks, i.e. thumb, index, and ring, and the last two fingers representing humanity and divinity of Christ.

Xrictoc anecti!

[Jason of Wyoming]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, Im aware that some of the earliest Christians signed themselves solely on the forehead (whether with just the thumb, or the three finger combo I don't know.)

[Xpycoctomos]

John,

Actually, most historians agree that the finger configurations trace back to early times in all of the Apostolic Churches and were used as a means of demonstrative teaching/reminder of various theological truths - much as tradition says that Holy Patrick used the shamrock to illustrate the Trinity.


I know this is like 3 weeks later, but I didn't see it until jsut now. I wasn't talking about the finger configurations... I assume that something that introcuit (sp?) didn't develop on accident. I meant about weather we go from left to right or right to left when we cross. My personal theory is that the reasons developed after the practice. I could be wrong.. but a lot of pieties (important ones at that) develop in the Church like this.

John

[erinipassi]

Posting this thread for those who would like to know more!

love and blessings
erini

[crusader4peace]

even our indian orthodox church follows the same.....left to right.

[villoththoma]

dear irish melkite,

you mentioned the "syro-malabar" and "syro-malankara" as Orthodox.
No ,they are Not Orthodox.There are only two Orthodox churches in India:

1.Indian Orthodox Church (Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church)

2.Syriac Orthodox Church (Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church)...ie under the Patriarch of Antioch.

The "syro-malabar" and "syro-malankara" are Catholics.
Both are eastern rites within the catholic church...(both of them were initially Orthodox,but left it later when it came into contact with the Portuguese colonialists)

[villoththoma]

Plz visit this site for the explanation given by the Eastern Orthodox.

http://www.orthodox.net/articles/about-crossing-oneself.html

it says,"We make if from right to left to mirror the actions of the priest when he blesses us. The priest, looking at the parishioners, blesses from left to right. Therefore, the parishioners, putting on the sign of the cross on themselves, do it from right to left. "
"When a parent makes the sign of the cross over a child, they will cross them from left to right, just as the priest blesses. When they make the sign of the cross over themselves, they would do it, logically, the other way."

[Xpycoctomos]

that's interesting. I had heartd that before. Being that this is an Oriental Orthodox Forum, it is probably good to point out, however, that this is not the tradition of their Churches (generally speaking) where they cross in the opposite direction (althought with the fingers fashioned the same way), but they do indeed have their own reasoning has to why they cross the other way.

John

[Globalnomad]

Thanks for bumping the thread! I had lost sight of it and never read the interesting conversation that resulted. Interesting!

You know, I had never paid any attention to the finger configuration. I'm not sure it is given that much importance by us Catholics... I think I'll ask on OBOB (welcome to join me there!). We don't seem to use our thumbs, but rather, our index fingers without separating them from the others, or the index and middle separated from the rest: shades of the old Monophysist argument.... a symbol of the two Natures? That, in any case, is the explanation I was given for the position of the fingers of Christ's right hand on Eastern Orthodox Pantocrator icons... while on Coptic icons, He always has only one finger raised.

Fascinating stuff. As long as it remains a help to understanding, not a source of more discord... That's my prayer today!

[villoththoma]

The Oriental orthodox crosses in the right way,....from left to right...using the thumb,the index and middle fingers.

the Eastern orthodox seem to have deviated and cross from right to left,....(i have posted their (EO) explanation earlier....)
the catholics dont even use the thumb,.and thus do not signify the Trinity.,while crossing themselves.

Why this deviation from ancient christian tradition?
Maybe there should be an attempt by the RC and EO to bring back the oldest christian traditions and revive the spiritual practises that they have lost or deviated from in the course of centuries...
....they need only to look at the Oriental Orthodox who have succeeded the most in preserving the oldest christian traditions,customs and spiritual practises unchanged over 2000 years..

[Xpycoctomos]

I think many OO will agree with me when I say you are focusing on things that are extremely unimportant.

I've never heard of OOs splitting hairs over this difference.

[villoththoma]

Extremely unimportant??

The crucifix,the cross symbol are important indeed...spiritual practises are very important for the Oriental Orthodox people...
And we believe in the unaltered continuity of those ancient spiritual practises....

there are some biased people who even go as far as saying that the OO are not orthodox at all for lesser reasons...

[Deiesous]

OFF TOPIC A lot of (fundamentalist) Protestants don't do it because (a) they were never taught to and (b) they think that it is a form of idolatry (worshipping the cross, like with icons). Of course, the more insightful Protestants know better ;)

[Xpycoctomos]

Extremely unimportant??

The crucifix,the cross symbol are important indeed...spiritual practises are very important for the Oriental Orthodox people...
And we believe in the unaltered continuity of those ancient spiritual practises....

there are some biased people who even go as far as saying that the OO are not orthodox at all for lesser reasons...

I'm talking about if we cross from right to left or left to right. I highly doubt that this bothers you bishop at all or Pope Shenouda.

[villoththoma]

The EO cross in the opposite way,....without debating the rights and wrongs of this,....we can say that this EO practise is a comparatively new one and a departure from ancient Orthodoxy..
Also the depiction of the "ever-suffering Christ" on the EO cross distances it from traditional Orthodox way of venerating the Cross,.....the EO seems to have been influenced by the RC in this respect.

This is the departure from ancient Orthodox tradition that i was talking about.

Anyway,the most ancient Orthodox traditions and spiritual practises will always be kept alive in the different Old Oriental Orthodox Churches.

[Xpycoctomos]

The EO cross in the opposite way,....without debating the rights and wrongs of this,....we can say that this EO practise is a comparatively new one
Well, I haven't seen evidence for that (although I have seen evidence that in the early church tradition these things varied MUCH more greatly then now days) but even if that is true (which it very well may be)... so what?

and a departure from ancient Orthodoxy..

So, Orthodoxy is somehow defined by which way you cross yourself. Come on guys... am I alone in seeing this as a non-essential and having no bearing on anything at all? I realize I am not OO, but I cannot believe that other OOs here agree that it can possibly matter that EOs cross themselves the other way.

I realize you have a reason behind why you cross yourslf right to Left and i think it is beautiful and very meaningful.. but do you think we deny something in crossing the other way?

Doyou tink the RCs deny the two natures of Christ and the Trinity simply becuase they do not fold their fingers in the same way?

i think Pope Shenouda and your Patriarch (who ever that is) would take serious issue with what you say.



Also the depiction of the "ever-suffering Christ" on the EO cross distances it from traditional Orthodox way of venerating the Cross,.....the EO seems to have been influenced by the RC in this respect.
This is the departure from ancient Orthodox tradition that i was talking about.

Anyway,the most ancient Orthodox traditions and spiritual practises will always be kept alive in the different Old Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Ever Ever suffering Christ are you talking about? This is how a baptist misunderstands the Crucifix. i did not realize that the OOs had the same misunderstanding. My guess is that they don't and that this is you simply splitting hairs.

Perhaps I'm wrong. I would be interested to see what other OOs think.

john

[villoththoma]

You still havent got the point,..im not talking abt the EO doing everything the other way round,....or about the RC cross that you use...

im talking about how much EO has departed from ancient orthodoxy,..and how much it has come to resemble Roman Catholicism...how much EO has departed from the old faith..
The attitudes of the catholic and the EO seem very similar these days,....the old nostalgia for the empire,.....most EO,particularly the russian and greek tend to associate their faith more with their nationalities and national history,....a bit of material tinge here and there,which is so very characteristic of western christianity.

Also Orthodox take care to preserve the earliest christian traditions,.....a "so what if we changed" attitude is not what an Oriental Orthodox would be having.
Im not accusing the EO of anything ,these are my personal views...they are entitled to their beliefs,....
and we are to ours,which we hold so dearly,..which our ancestors held so dearly even in the face of horrifying persecutions and trials.

[Xpycoctomos]

Well, you did say taht the fact that we cross ourselves the other way is a departure from the Tradition or whatever. I took issue with that freely in here because I have a feeling that OO brethern would not agree with you on this either (that this is somehow of importance that a different cultural piety developped over time in a different area of the world).
As for the rest:
Aparently I'm not supposed to defend what you misrepresent about the EO here. I always thought is was odd that OO could not defend themselves in TAW when we misrepresented them and I think this is odd also. Oh well. I am not going to drag this debate into TAW nor am I going to drag it into a generic Christian thread to fihgt about in front of all the world.

I guess the debate is over. You are surely entitled to your opinion.. i just thought I was entitled to correct it when it was no longer opinion but rather a misrpresentation. I suppose i crossed the line there.

John

While this situation has come to annoy me, there are other threads of yours I have enjoyed and I look forward to future interaction with you.

[erinipassi]

Hi John,

Please don't take our frustrations personal. Villoththoma, like many of us, is understandably upset about the way Eastern Orthodox sees us as "unorthodox" despite the Eastern Orthodox have actually received many of their Orthodox traditions from the Oriental Orthodox. For example, Monasticism, The Creed which was influenced by St. Athanasius, the dates of Resurrection, etc....all of these are things that the Eastern Orthodox has received from the Oriental Orthodox and if you would like proof of it we can provide it.

But the real issue is, John, that many of us can't stand hypocracy that is coming from some of the Eastern Orthodox. Like for example Maximus sees fit to defend the filoque because he says we need to "understand what the Catholic church actually teaches", yet he won't apply this same principle with the Oriental Orthodox...don't you think it sounds hypocritical even to you?

And how many times has our messages been deleted from the Eastern Orthodox Forum when we have tried to clarify misrepresentations of our beliefs or have defended our beliefs???? Don't you think if you were in our position you would get so angry and hurt about it, just like you are feeling upset now?

I thank you for always being a friend to the Oriental Orthodox and we value your friendship very much. At this stage don't be suprised by the level of high frustration and hurt that is coming from the Oriental Orthodox people in reaction to what is said in the Eastern Orthodox Forum.

love and blessings
erini

[RobNJ]

[MOD HAT ON]

A reminder- All visiting posters who are NOT memebers of an Oriental Orthodox Church are expected to comply with CF Rule 2.2 b. The Congregation subforums only allow debate between people belonging to the Congregation - others can only post fellowship and ask questions.

[MOD HAT OFF]

[MariaRegina]

I was always wondering.

When the Oriental Orthodox Priest starts the Divine Liturgy does he hold the Gospel book up in the air and say, "Blessed is the Kingdom of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

And when he sings this doxology to begin the Divine Liturgy, does he use the Gospel book to make the sign of the Cross: First elevating the Gospel book, then lowering it, then moviing it to his left and finally to his right?

This is the action of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Priest when he begins the Divine Liturgy.

[Xpycoctomos]

Erini...

I appreciated your clarification of what was clearly a misrepresentation of the OO belief (the who "mingling" thing). I'm not sure why some saw that as your overstepping the bounds. Sorry about that. I would have posted something, but it was closed to keep the peace.

John

[minasoliman]

Hey, just came from West Virginia, and I skimmed through some of the new posts. My views:

1. Doing the sign of the cross in the case of right to left or left to right has no basis of true tradition. In my humble opinion, there is no right or wrong way to do the sign of the cross. In fact, while RC's and OO's do it similarly, EO's and Assyrian Church does it the same, being that the Assyrian Church has been so isolated from the Byzantine empire and all. So by this fact, it seems to me that both ways to cross have ancient roots, and none of them would be "wrong."

2. I do not mind an EO debating anything in this thread (perhaps any Christian at all). I really hate these rules, being an OO myself who wants to allow debates here. I don't think there's any OO that would be "annoyed" at debaters from outside the OO church, as opposed to the EO's who were annoyed.

God bless.

[minasoliman]

Dear Aria,

Unlike the EO church, the OO's are DIVERSE with so many different rites. So as a Copt, I can only answer what Copts do. In the Coptic Orthodox church, truthfully, I don't see those practices being done in our liturgies by the priest. I can give you some other practices that use a "golden" gospel, which is held mostly by altar deacons (with a small "d") when I get the chance. Right now, I have to go to sleep.

Good night.

[MariaRegina]

Dear Aria,

Unlike the EO church, the OO's are DIVERSE with so many different rites. So as a Copt, I can only answer what Copts do. In the Coptic Orthodox church, truthfully, I don't see those practices being done in our liturgies by the priest. I can give you some other practices that use a "golden" gospel, which is held mostly by altar deacons (with a small "d") when I get the chance. Right now, I have to go to sleep.

Good night.

The EO Gospel book is gilded in gold and precious jewels. I hope I am using the correct words. But the cover is gold metal and is beautifully adorned with an icon of Christ.

[villoththoma]

sincere EOs who come here with goodwill and fellowship and honest questions are always welcome...:thumbsup:

[MariaRegina]

:confused: Why do these EOs come into our forums and flood our threads with uninteresting and unrelated bits of infos about their church.:doh:
If we would want to know anything about the EO,.we would come to your forum..:yawn:

But sincere EOs who come here with goodwill and fellowship and honest questions are always welcome...:thumbsup:

I am just responding to the previous thread when he mentioned a golden Gospel book.

Is your golden Gospel book also adorned with precious jewels and an Icon of Christ? Is it the Resurrection Icon on one side and the Crucifixion on the other? I cannot remember. In the EO church, we only get to kiss it during Matins in the Greek Church.

Anyway, I just wanted to see if our practices are similar to yours, nothing more.

I am a linguist so I am very interested in the OO churches.

We have an Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles that I would love to see but their web site has been messed up and I cannot get their address nor phone number. My sister in law wants to go visit there also.

[villoththoma]

The EO ppl,.especially the Greek and Russian ones,.i think, associate their faith more with their imperial,national histories,.. tend to think in terms more of an earthly empire of Christianity,.......i have often seen them even quote the military victories of their kings in matters of faith....
Hence a lot of pomp,material wealth,glitter,..are found in their churches,...though not as far as the catholics do...

I think they in some way try to combine materialism with spirituality,..(the Chalcedonian position of twin natures they take,may have something to do with it)....and often seem to be having more of a western outlook than us in matters of faith.(luckily they still havent completely lost all of their oriental ways)


The OO churches even though maybe more impressive and more attractive in terms of antiquity and variety,...take care to be modest in certain respects.....OO has a very Oriental outlook,one of humble ,yet heavenly worship.
Also icons are not be found on the crucifixes..(read the thread on the differences between OO crucifix and that of the EO&catholics)
No,aria,...there is no icon on the Holy Gospel as well..(ie not in the Indian Orthodox church)...i think it is not there in other OO churches too.

[erinipassi]

Hi Aria,

Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox Forum :wave:

Your question is valid, but perhaps it is best answered in a new thread and that way we can answer your question in more detail, I have started a new Thread for you called "Aria's Question- Golden Gospel".

love and blessings
erini

[minasoliman]

Dear Villoththoma,

Why do you continue to talk about EO and imperialism when it has nothing to do with the topic? Please, some people can take this as disrespectful, perhaps even confusion, since it has nothing to do with the topic. Let us try to be mindful of what we write, especially with relevance to the topic.

I like to add that it would be nice to share and find out what EO practices are, even if not in an EO forum. Again, I don't EVEN mind debates. Plus, I feel the golden gospel Aria was talking about had some relavence to a certain sidetrack of a topic, which was quite interesting, and I personally thank Aria and wish her to share more of her thoughts and knowledge.

God bless you, brother.

Mina

[villoththoma]

Dear minasoliman,

I admire your good spirit of discussions and your open mindedness.
I think i should continue to write what i feel,this is the OO forum,...this is only where i get the freedom to do that.I couldnt do this in an EO or RC forum.

If you look closely you will find who diverted from the topic.

and dear friend,i do not think we should appease our EO brethren to the point of questioning our own freedom of expression......
especially since we the OO are sometimes not even allowed to post our replies /corrections to the disrespectful & distorting comments about the OO in the EO forum....(and i beleive it is not the EO there who happn to be behind this..)

This is my opinion,and noone should take it personal.
I apologize to any EO,if my any of my comments were disrespectful,....just voicing my opinions,...sorry if the words used were inappropriate.

but if any non-OO should come here,it should be the EO first,our closest relatives in faith... the EO brethren are always welcome in this forum,to learn more about their Old Oriental brethren,..to share fellowship,..for earnest question,..and even discussions,...most people in this forum like minasoliman are very lenient and open minded and even tolerate discussions and debates,.unlike in most other forums.

[MariaRegina]

Hi Aria,

Welcome to the Oriental Orthodox Forum :wave:

Your question is valid, but perhaps it is best answered in a new thread and that way we can answer your question in more detail, I have started a new Thread for you called "Aria's Question- Golden Gospel".

love and blessings
erini


Thanks

I did mention that the Eastern Orthodox Priest raises the Gospel book and uses it to make the sign of the Cross: Up Down Left Right. This is done after the preparation of the Gifts just prior to the Liturgy of the Word.
But in this case he is not facing the congregation, but his back is to the congregation as he is facing East.

I did notice that your Liturgy (the Coptic one) is similar -- I have been to the large Coptic Church in the San Fernando Valley for their Divine Liturgy and I could follow along nicely. There are quite a few Coptic Orthodox who frequent our Divine Liturgies in the Eastern Orthodox Church. .. and we are not hostile to each other.

So, frankly, the hostility seen in here by a few posters is strange to me.

So I was on topic. The Orthodox Priests do bless us from Left to Right and they do start the Divine Liturgy by lifting up the Gospel Book and saying the doxology from Left to Right again. In fact, when I mentioned this to the Orthodox Priest ... he stopped, looked puzzled, and then made the gesture just to make sure that I was right and said, "You're right."

[erinipassi]

Hi Aria,

I refer to your comment:

So, frankly, the hostility seen in here by a few posters is strange to me.

This all started actually with some Eastern Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox Forum calling us Heretics and not Orthodox.

Frankly speaking the hostility that we saw in the Eastern Orthodox Forum is so strange to us, that it has overwhelmed us. Imagine if the Oriental Orthodox started calling the Eastern Orthodox heretics and not Orthodox, how would you feel? Since you visit the Eastern Orthodox Forum, you would have seen several times how Maximus and other people like him calling us heretics with "pagan practices" which was highly offensive to us. This started last year when some Eastern Orthodox started to call us this way. I've included a copy of my reply to John, which I posted in this thread, p. 4, so that you would understand how we feel.

love and blessings
erini

Hi John,

Please don't take our frustrations personal. Villoththoma, like many of us, is understandably upset about the way Eastern Orthodox sees us as "unorthodox" despite the Eastern Orthodox have actually received many of their Orthodox traditions from the Oriental Orthodox. For example, Monasticism, The Creed which was influenced by St. Athanasius, the dates of Resurrection, etc....all of these are things that the Eastern Orthodox has received from the Oriental Orthodox and if you would like proof of it we can provide it.

But the real issue is, John, that many of us can't stand hypocracy that is coming from some of the Eastern Orthodox. Like for example Maximus sees fit to defend the filoque because he says we need to "understand what the Catholic church actually teaches", yet he won't apply this same principle with the Oriental Orthodox...don't you think it sounds hypocritical even to you?

And how many times has our messages been deleted from the Eastern Orthodox Forum when we have tried to clarify misrepresentations of our beliefs or have defended our beliefs???? Don't you think if you were in our position you would get so angry and hurt about it, just like you are feeling upset now?

I thank you for always being a friend to the Oriental Orthodox and we value your friendship very much. At this stage don't be suprised by the level of high frustration and hurt that is coming from the Oriental Orthodox people in reaction to what is said in the Eastern Orthodox Forum.

love and blessings
erini

[CopticGirl]

I definately agree with you erini.

There were several Eastern Orthodox who told me I was not "Orthodox" and that we are heretics.

I even remember simply asking a question, and someone responded, and I quote:

Does anyone have a brick handy, I'd like to bash it over my head.

This was the response to a ligitimate question I had.

While Maximius may seem like the the ring leader, he certainly is not the only one either.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[minasoliman]

So I was on topic. The Orthodox Priests do bless us from Left to Right and they do start the Divine Liturgy by lifting up the Gospel Book and saying the doxology from Left to Right again. In fact, when I mentioned this to the Orthodox Priest ... he stopped, looked puzzled, and then made the gesture just to make sure that I was right and said, "You're right."

Lol...that's interesting...I can imagine my father in confession doing the same when recalling directions.

Thanks for that tidbit.

God bless.

Mina

PS you got me writing in your color...grrrr

[minasoliman]

I definately agree with you erini.

There were several Eastern Orthodox who told me I was not "Orthodox" and that we are heretics.

I even remember simply asking a question, and someone responded, and I quote:



This was the response to a ligitimate question I had.

While Maximius may seem like the the ring leader, he certainly is not the only one either.

God Bless,
Elizabeth

Well, there's one very simple solution. "Do unto others as you want others to do unto you." Acting out like some EO's there to be applied to EO's who post here only seperates us further, and doesn't make us any much Christian in our welcoming love. (I even don't complain about anyone debating here, which is what I wish can happen in TAW when I share my facts.)

God bless.

[MariaRegina]

I don't join in those debates as I do have some friends in the Coptic Church.

[Irish Melkite]

We have an Ethiopian Orthodox Church in Los Angeles that I would love to see but their web site has been messed up and I cannot get their address nor phone number. My sister in law wants to go visit there also.

Elizabeth (Aria),

There are actually 2 Ethiopian Orthodox Churches in LA

Virgin Mary Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Orthodox Church (http://www.ethiovirginmary.org/) at 4544 Compton Ave. (tel. (323) 234-5828). Map (http://www.ethiovirginmary.org/information/location.htm) and liturgical schedule (http://www.ethiovirginmary.org/services/worshiping.htm)

Saint Mary's Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/) at 5707 Shenandoah St. (tel. (310) 338-0021), Map (http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/church/direction.html) and liturgical schedule (http://www.ethiopianorthodoxchurch.org/church/hours.html). Note that, when using a mouse to navigate links on Saint Mary's website, a bit of manuvering is required, as the alignment is a tad unusual for some reason.

Saint Tekle Haimanot Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (http://stteklehaimanot.free.bm/) is not presently functioning, from what I last knew, although efforts have been underway for a while to revive what was the first Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church in LA.

Many years,

Neil

[schjon]

Christ is Born!
Glorify Him!
The Eastern Orthodox sign of the cross comes from similar origins to the Oriental Orthodox. The difference being that the priest signs left to right (darkness to light) and the faithful sign right to left to put on the cross given to them. Eastern Orthodox theology is very similar to OO as most originated from OO.
As we study more texts and have open communication with OO, we realize that we are much the same. We believe in the same things Christ was God and Man. Our definition of what a nature was (at the time) were different. The OO believe Jesus was God and Man in one Nature. EO Believe Jesus was God and Man in one person. The words person and nature were the underlying separations. We desire to reunite the EO and OO churches to become one again. There are some bishops who do not desire this union and with prayer, we pray that they will see the truth.:liturgy: