Question for Jews on the Trinity

[thaiv]

Did the Jews of the Old Testament see God as triune? There are some parts of the Old Testament Scriptures which imply that God is triune, but I would like to see a Jewish/Messianic Jewish response to this.

[Henaynei]

Did the Jews of the Old Testament see God as triune? There are some parts of the Old Testament Scriptures which imply that God is triune, but I would like to see a Jewish/Messianic Jewish response to this.No, as a rule they did not - even today, many of us Messianics are not "trinitarians."

The concept of G-d is clearly expressed in the core statement of Jewish fath, the Shema in D'varim/Deuteronomy 6:4: "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our G-d, ADONAI is one];

As to what Messianic Jews do believe let me refer you to some of the numerous threads where we have discussed this previously, there is good infor there :)
http://www.christianforums.com/t61227 (http://www.christianforums.com/t61227)
http://www.christianforums.com/t42040 (http://www.christianforums.com/t42040)
http://www.christianforums.com/t123607 (http://www.christianforums.com/t123607)
http://www.christianforums.com/t87218 (http://www.christianforums.com/t87218)
http://www.christianforums.com/t52495 (http://www.christianforums.com/t52495)
http://www.christianforums.com/t98579 (http://www.christianforums.com/t98579)

[P_G]

Excellent post Henny and may I humbly suggest that those links might be a great thing to put in the MJ FAQ? Under a question like "What to MJ's think about the trinity"

Blessings

Pastor George :wave:

[Henaynei]

Excellent post Henny and may I humbly suggest that those links might be a great thing to put in the MJ FAQ? Under a question like "What to MJ's think about the trinity"

Blessings

Pastor George :wave: LOL - yeah not a bad idea (what say you Justin? FAQmeister?), having to hunt them down every other week is getting a tiny tad repetitious ;)

[Sephania]

my fault, should'tn have posted:)

[Henaynei]

Indeed! :) But it is good that there are those interested enough to come and ask instead of making their own assumptions. :)NO complaints there!! you betcha!!:clap:

[visionary]

Trinity in One....just as we are...body + spirit = soul ....God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7 matches with "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, therefore also that holy thing which shall
be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Luke 1:35 ....soul (Father) = spirit (Holy Sprit) + body (Yeshua) .. all a part of the same equation.

[Toney]

Philo, a Jew of Alexandria living in the time of Yeshua, gave us two terms (he wrote in Greek) essential to apprehending the incomprehensible concept of the Trinity. He distinguished between G-d’s essence (ousia) – the incomprehensible part – and His activities (energeiai) in the world, which we at least can appreciate through His great gifts of Torah, and Yeshua – ‘Amen’ to the Torah.

Three hundred years later, the Cappadocians took Philo a step further. They formulated that G-d’s essence remains incomprehensible but that He becomes knowable through three (Trinitarian) expressions of His activities.

Therefore ineffable HaShem Echad becomes knowable as Father, Son (word or Logos), and Spirit, but He Himself remains impenetrable mystery, if that makes sense.

I find some other definitions helpful. Most notably, examine the difference between esoteric and exoteric truth. The Trinity belongs to the former and attempts to ascribe it to the latter invariably fail, at least for now.

Another Greek word, theoria, means contemplation. In the West, it became theory, something to be proven. The unproven Trinity is only comprehensible in contemplation, if that makes sense.

[koilias]

Makes great sense Toney...

If you think about it, there are many ways to begin understanding the nature of G-d. Slicing the One in three qualities is simply a matter of convention, which may or may not lead one to deeper understanding. I don't believe that Yohannan saw a "trinity" at all, for one. In fact, I think there is good evidence to say that he classified G-d's natures in a very different way. He says Yeshua has "Seven Eyes" or "Seven Spirits". His system is much closer to Ma'ase B'resheet mystical theosophy than anything...an early form of Kabbalah.

[Toney]

After reading your most excellent post, Koilias, I should footnote mine.

The ineffable HaShem is most knowable in the Ten Sefirah of mystical Judaism. Once a mystical concept such as the Trinity is given over to a Church Council, its efficacy becomes ashes, as you aptly noted. I cannot imagine anyone being brought closer to G-d through an understanding of Trinitarian theology.

Lurianic Kabbalism -- well, that's a different story with its own triadic twist.

[thaiv]

Thanks guys.

[koilias]

After reading your most excellent post, Koilias, I should footnote mine.

The ineffable HaShem is most knowable in the Ten Sefirot of mystical Judaism. Once a mystical concept such as the Trinity is given over to a Church Council, its efficacy becomes ashes, as you aptly noted. I cannot imagine anyone being brought closer to G-d through an understanding of Trinitarian theology.

Lurianic Kabbalism -- well, that's a different story with its own triadic twist.
He...I was puzzled about what you meant by "triad". I read up on the Sephirot, and there appears to be all kinds of ways to "subdivide" and classify the Sephirot. You can distinguish them horizontally--male, middle, female. Or vertically--Upper Countenance, Lower Countenance and Shekinah. Then within the Upper Countenance there are three Sephirot. One gets the feeling that trinitarians may be missing the greater picture.;)

[Toney]

One gets the feeling that trinitarians may be missing the greater picture.;)


There is no doubt about that.

As Western dogma, the Trinity became a static concept; a feeble attempt to explain the En Sof or mystical G-dhead to the rational mind. The Trinity is not static at all and is certainly no rational concept. It is dynamical (words fail me), a constant kenosis, or self-emptying by the Father to the Son through the Spirit. A kindred mystical concept is reflected by the top three sefirah before emanation, as you well noted.

The 'triadic twist' was a tongue in cheek reference to a hymn by Itzhak Luria and his treatment of the Shekinah, the feminine presence of G-d. Luria makes the Shekinah a symbol of Binah, the Supernal Mother and second sefiroth.

I am drawn to this because it restores some gender balance to the overwhelmingly masculine En Sof and illuminates many other spiritual mysteries as well.

N.B. I removed a link from the text of my original post. After further investigating the material mingled with that ostensibly innocous site, I was slimed with an agenda wholly inconsitent with Lurianic and Judaic teaching. As Yafet assiduously noted in another thread, HaSatan avails himself of all opportunities to corrupt truth. Sorry.

[simchat_torah]

Koilias & Toney,

I have enjoyed watching the discussion greatly. I would like to reiterate as well that when viewing Ein Sof you get a grand feeling of an infinite being that is almost lost when forcing the trinitarian view upon HaShem. It almost feels as though some of the grand mystical nature of G-d is lost with the trinitarian view, an essence that is totally captured in the Kabbalistic sense.

shalom,
yafet

[muffler dragon]

Couple points I thought I would bring up in this thread: Please keep in mind with these thoughts that I mean absolutely nothing blasphemous or derogatory, simply stating thoughts.

1) For gender balance, I was told once (possibly incorrectly) that El Shaddai can also be interpreted as 'big-breasted one'. This represents not only strength, but also a nurturing or sustaining presence.

2) an unrelated thought on the trinity: I have come to envision the work of the L-rd as such:
Father - Architect
Son - Contractor/Construction
Holy Spirit - Interior Design
This is more a meaningless rambling, but it just kind of added a tinge of thought for me.

[simchat_torah]

oh, Toney, before I forget...

There is a Kabbalah thread I had previously started here in the MJ forum located here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t99182

I know that Koilias most likely is aware of this discussion, but I thought you may not be aware of its existence.

shalom,
yafet

[Hix]

Even then, G-d is an infinite being outside of finite logic or comprehension, the trinity or any concept which limits G-d in such a way is just mankinds failed attempts to try and pin down the Almighty instead of accepting that we could never fully comprehend him, yet what little we can know is presented in the Bible. Kabbalah in essence is a Bible study going deeper to find more out about who HaShem is though admitting that we can never even come close to comprehending his fullness.

I have only looked into the Ein Sof and the Sefiroth lately thanks to Yafet but already it helps me in my walk in understanding the Shekinah.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Toney]

oh, Toney, before I forget...

There is a Kabbalah thread I had previously started here in the MJ forum located here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t99182

I know that Koilias most likely is aware of this discussion, but I thought you may not be aware of its existence.

shalom,
yafet

Shalom achi,

Thank you. I was not, and will enjoy reading it.

Toney

[Toney]

For gender balance, I was told once (possibly incorrectly) that El Shaddai can also be interpreted as 'big-breasted one'. This represents not only strength, but also a nurturing or sustaining presence.


I once heard something similar and looked into the etymology. The Divine name El Shaddai or G-d Almighty is not derived from the same root as "nursing mother."

It is close enough, however, to jump into a splendid homily on the all-sufficiency of HaShem. But it is bad hermeneutics.

[Cright]

No, as a rule they did not - even today, many of us Messianics are not "trinitarians."

The concept of G-d is clearly expressed in the core statement of Jewish fath, the Shema in D'varim/Deuteronomy 6:4: "Sh'ma, Yisra'el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad [Hear, Isra'el! ADONAI our G-d, ADONAI is one];

As to what Messianic Jews do believe let me refer you to some of the numerous threads where we have discussed this previously, there is good infor there :)
http://www.christianforums.com/t61227 (http://www.christianforums.com/t61227)
http://www.christianforums.com/t42040 (http://www.christianforums.com/t42040)
http://www.christianforums.com/t123607 (http://www.christianforums.com/t123607)
http://www.christianforums.com/t87218 (http://www.christianforums.com/t87218)
http://www.christianforums.com/t52495 (http://www.christianforums.com/t52495)
http://www.christianforums.com/t98579 (http://www.christianforums.com/t98579)
I have wonderd this since surfing through your forum... Only seeing one of the above threads as I pop in and out. I've just read them. Gained some insite... thanks for posting this list! :D