Is my pastor's behavior appropriate?

[filly]

I moved to southern Louisiana a couple of years ago, and my wife and I started visiting churches a few months ago. My only experience with church growing up was in the Baptist denomination. My wife really hasn't been exposed to "organized" religion. Anyway, our search for a church has been centered entirely on Baptist churches. FWIW, if this adds any relevance, we're both in our 20's and have a toddler.

After visiting a couple of churches, we narrowed our decision down and started attending the local First Baptist Church. This is a fairly small church--about 40 people on any given Sunday. The average age of its members is about 65 years. In fact, I think we're the youngest in attendance. The pastor, again about 65 years old, is very friendly, open, and an all-around nice guy. He always makes a gesture to us at the start of every service. If the gesture were spoken, it would probably go, "Welcome. I'm glad to see you both here. We need more younger folks like yourselves. Thanks for coming." Again, a very amiable person. We also enjoy his sermons very much (isn't that what's most important!?).

So, my question. A couple of weekends ago, I came down with a nasty cold, and my wife decided to take my son and go to church by herself for the first time (we had only been there about 3 times by then). When the service was over, my wife gets our son from the nursery and goes to the car. Son's in his car seat and my wife is in the driver's seat. She was about to pull out of the parking spot when the pastor taps on the window. She was a little startled and rolled down the window. I think he told her thanks for coming, etc. She mentioned why she had come alone and the usual chit chat. Before they parted ways, she said he leaned in to give her a peck on the cheek. You know, kind of like you'd do in Europe when you greet someone, except only once (not both sides). Of course, he's not European (and did I mention, he's a pastor...)--he's down home southern folk. So, my wife told me about this because she didn't know what to make of it. She asked if that's how Baptists are, i.e. very friendly. She thought maybe it's just how some people do things in the South. I really didn't know what to tell her, but I don't really feel it was the appropriate thing to do. Obviously, I'm not worried about the pastor running away with my wife or anything. I'm just wondering what your opinions are of this. I mean, I wouldn't expect that a 30-year-old male pastor would kiss a female member of his congregation. But is it excusable that the pastor is an older, country gentleman? Obviously, I'm trying to decide whether to keep going to this church. I really like the atmosphere and the sermons.

[GreenEyedLady]

I would definatly say, THAT is not a very smart pastor.
I would ask him about it. That was your wife he was peckin!

[ZiSunka]

Before they parted ways, she said he leaned in to give her a peck on the cheek.



Once, when I was in college, my boss gave me a ride to school because it was raining and too cold to stand out at the bus stop. When he dropped me off, I almost leaned over and gave him a kiss. I didn't do it because I loved him or anything, but because normally my boyfriend would drive me and I'd kiss him before I got out of the car. It was a reflex. I stopped myself just in time, but it was weird for both of us. I was very embarassed, but he said his wife always gave him a kiss before getting out of the car so it seemed reflexive to him, too and not to worry about it. :blush:

I bet that's what happened with your pastor. He might normally give his wife a kiss before she drives away (a lot of pastor's wives drive separately to church so they can go home and get lunch ready while he finishes up business at the church) and he just did it as a reflex and not to be fresh with your wife or anything. :)

[constance]

Sounds like a "grandpa" kind of kiss to me....

I've been kissed on the cheek by similar pastor types and did not at all get the "yucchy old man" vibe.

Did she get a yucchy old man vibe?

And yes, there is some sort of double standard - I'd be much more likely to deck your younger brother than your dad. :)

Greet one another with a holy kiss, and all that.

Constance

[filly]

Sounds like a "grandpa" kind of kiss to me....

I've been kissed on the cheek by similar pastor types and did not at all get the "yucchy old man" vibe.

Did she get a yucchy old man vibe?

And yes, there is some sort of double standard - I'd be much more likely to deck your younger brother than your dad. :)

Greet one another with a holy kiss, and all that.

Constance
Nah, I don't think she got the "yucchy old man trying to make a move" vibe. My first impression was of the "ol' granpa" type. When she gets back from visiting her parents in a few days, I'm gonna have her read this thread and see how she looks at it. I'll let her make the final decision on whether we go back or not.

[rural_preacher]

Nah, I don't think she got the "yucchy old man trying to make a move" vibe. My first impression was of the "ol' granpa" type. When she gets back from visiting her parents in a few days, I'm gonna have her read this thread and see how she looks at it. I'll let her make the final decision on whether we go back or not.

I imagine that this pastor was just doing what is "normal" for him. My brother-in-law is a pastor in the South. He hugs all the old ladies as they leave on Sunday mornings. In fact, some of them are probably there more for the hug than the sermon. :D

You mentioned that this pastor is an older gentleman. He probably perceives you and your wife as being his kid's age.

I think you are wise in letting your wife make the decision since she is the one who was kissed and she knows just how it all happened.

BTW, I'm a pastor in a rural area in the North. People in this part of the country aren't generally comfortable with hugs and kisses (except some of the older folks). If I tried kissing anyone other than my wife I would probably be shot. :P

Sometimes I miss Southern sensibility and hospitality...but I'm glad to be where God wants me to be.


--

[P_G]

This is a really hard call you know
I am a pretty huggy pastor
and if I know some one well I might give them a kiss on the cheek

Provisio always when Miss Bonnie is around and never EVER EVER in a sexual way

I think it might have been a bit forward since he does not seem to know you all real well yet. I think it was a judgment error on his part.

Blessings

Pastor George

[filly]

This is a really hard call you know
I am a pretty huggy pastor
and if I know some one well I might give them a kiss on the cheek

Provisio always when Miss Bonnie is around and never EVER EVER in a sexual way

I think it might have been a bit forward since he does not seem to know you all real well yet. I think it was a judgment error on his part.

Blessings

Pastor George
Should this at all discredit the legitimacy of this pastor? I have OCD, and I can already tell I could turn this into some huge problem in my head: Is he a true man of God? If I am saved and baptized while at this church, will I truly be saved? And on and on and on. I can see it coming. In other words, would a real, sincere, pastor working for God kiss members of his congregation? OCD is terrible. I'll have to ask my wife to make a judgement call on the nature of the "peck."

[constance]

Should this at all discredit the legitimacy of this pastor? I have OCD, and I can already tell I could turn this into some huge problem in my head: Is he a true man of God? If I am saved and baptized while at this church, will I truly be saved? And on and on and on. I can see it coming. In other words, would a real, sincere, pastor working for God kiss members of his congregation? OCD is terrible. I'll have to ask my wife to make a judgement call on the nature of the "peck."

It certainly sounds like you need to talk to your wife. She's your rock, isn't she? I feel like that too some times.

In several places, the Bible says, "Greet one another with a holy kiss" or "with a kiss of love".

Pray about it, and I'll pray for you.

Constance

[P_G]

Would a pastor kiss his congregation yeah I think some would it is a judgement call however if he is just a physical person and this is something you don't want you need to simply say look that makes me uncomfortable.

As for the rest being saved or baptized

lets change the discussion


Do you know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior now?
Lets have a talk!

PG

[RED that's ME]

I'm a southern girl and my grandfather is a retired Baptist minister. IMO it's one thing to hug a member but a lil' over the top even for a peck on the cheek. My pastor tries to always have his wife around or another staff member when he is counseling/talking with females it's good accountibility IMO. Not knowing the pastor there it's sorta hard to make comments. I also asked my mom about that and she has been around bunches of pastors all her life. Honestly I would just suggest keeping an eye on the situation if you & your wife sees anything out of the way you need to deal with it then. :angel:

[desert_island_1]

I think it is kinda hard to say but you may want to speak to the pastor about it and just say how you felt a bit uncomfortable about it and ask him not to do it again

[filly]

Do you know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior now?
Lets have a talk!

PG

No, I don't, and neither does my wife. Oh, boy, you're opening up a Sam's Club size of worms on this one. Let's just say that right now I don't feel I'm ready yet due to a perceived lack of faith and many other things. When I take that step, I want to know that something actually happened.

At some point, I'd like to have any pastors of the forum who are willing, volunteer to receive a lengthy letter/email describing my situation and concerns. A major reason that I want to ensure the pastor in question is a sincere pastor is because I plan on bringing my issues up with him. I need some serious pastoral counseling.

[filly]

I think it is kinda hard to say but you may want to speak to the pastor about it and just say how you felt a bit uncomfortable about it and ask him not to do it again
By the way, I'm brand new to this forum as of today, and I wanted to say that I appreciate ALL of your responses, although I find it hard to reply to everyone. I just don't like people feeling that I don't value their opinions, especially when I'm asking for them.

Thanks again.

[daveleau]

Many pastors take Scriptural mention of the holy kiss literally. Usually, it is older ones that do.

Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings.
1Cor 16:20 All the brothers here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
2 Cor 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

A look at the probable intent of the passage warrants that a hearty handshake or a warm hug would be the equivelant of a holy kiss in the 1st Century. The intent is to warmly greet the other members.

I would NOT take this as a slight on the pastor assuming this is the only thing that has happened that you (or she) feel uneasy about. The pastor is probably old fashioned in his theology about certain things, and the holy kiss is an old fashioned theology. Please pray about this and don't let this get in the way of the place God put you in (assuming that He guided you there.) If he had done something more inappropriate, I would be remiss to give the above advice, but a peck on the cheek to a young girl is nothing to get too upset about. If this continues, it is your duty to let the pastor know that you are uncomfortable with this (or she is uncomfortable with it). Don't just leave the church and leave the elder pastor wondering what he did to drive you away.

Instead of focusing your head on this superficial problem, focus it on Scripture. This is a Scriptural interpretation issue, not a sexual harassment issue. If you let it turn into the latter, then Satan has done his job and successfully turned you away from God's purpose (assuming this is where God wants you...of which you can only know through a routine prayer life and personal relationship through fellowship with Him in prayer).

[Stefan Davidovich]

Would he kiss your wife on the cheek in front of you?

It strikes me as odd that this first occurred away from your presence...but of course I don't know nearly enough to really comment.

If I am saved and baptized while at this church, will I truly be saved?

Absolutely! I would also encourage you to talk further with Pastor George.

Welcome to the Baptist forum!! You will be in my prayers as you continue on your journey.

Many blessings,

Stephen

[aReformedPatriot]

Many pastors take Scriptural mention of the holy kiss literally. Usually, it is older ones that do.

Rom 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send greetings.
1Cor 16:20 All the brothers here send you greetings. Greet one another with a holy kiss.
2 Cor 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

A look at the probable intent of the passage warrants that a hearty handshake or a warm hug would be the equivelant of a holy kiss in the 1st Century. The intent is to warmly greet the other members.

I would NOT take this as a slight on the pastor assuming this is the only thing that has happened that you (or she) feel uneasy about. The pastor is probably old fashioned in his theology about certain things, and the holy kiss is an old fashioned theology. Please pray about this and don't let this get in the way of the place God put you in (assuming that He guided you there.) If he had done something more inappropriate, I would be remiss to give the above advice, but a peck on the cheek to a young girl is nothing to get too upset about. If this continues, it is your duty to let the pastor know that you are uncomfortable with this (or she is uncomfortable with it). Don't just leave the church and leave the elder pastor wondering what he did to drive you away.

Instead of focusing your head on this superficial problem, focus it on Scripture. This is a Scriptural interpretation issue, not a sexual harassment issue. If you let it turn into the latter, then Satan has done his job and successfully turned you away from God's purpose (assuming this is where God wants you...of which you can only know through a routine prayer life and personal relationship through fellowship with Him in prayer).

Amen Dave, I totally agree.

[daveleau]

You can be saved anywhere, anytime. It is up to you and has nothing to do with procedure outside of what Scripture says that you have to do.

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control.
Admit that you are a sinner.


Romans 6:23a
"...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin.
But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity.
The Bible does plainly teach that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever.
It is the place where people end up that remain spiritually dead.
Understand that you deserve death for your sin.


Romans 6:23b
"...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Salvation is a free gift from God to you! We can't earn this gift, but we must reach out and receive it.
Ask God to forgive you and save you.


Romans 5:8
"God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the cosmic price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life.


Romans 10:13
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"
Call out to God in the name of Jesus!


Romans 10:9,10
"...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
If you know that God is knocking on your heart door,
ask Him to come into your heart.


Jesus said,
Revelation 3:20a
"Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."
Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?

John 1:12
"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who believe in His name!"


If you want to be Saved, all you have to do is believe in Christ as your personal Savior and ask Jesus to enter your life. A prayer something like this is all you need, but anything with the same intent in your own words will work as well. Talk to God. He is there for you and while He deserves our utmost repsect, He is our friend and does not need high and mighty speech to be reached:

Heavenly Father,
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen.


If you just prayed this prayer and you accept and believe all that it says, then you are Saved. Go spread the news to your pastor and to those in the Church!

God bless,
Dave

[novcncy]

Sounds like a "grandpa" kind of kiss to me....

I've been kissed on the cheek by similar pastor types and did not at all get the "yucchy old man" vibe.

Did she get a yucchy old man vibe?

And yes, there is some sort of double standard - I'd be much more likely to deck your younger brother than your dad. :)

Greet one another with a holy kiss, and all that.

Constance

I agree, that's what it sounds like to me too. I have moved around a lot, (Army), and been in many different churches, but when I got married we started going to our current church, which sounds like a very similar situation, except it's in Maryland. The pastor there was elderly, and viewed us almost as his children. I don't know if he ever kissed my wife, but I know he hugged her, (and me too :0 ) He's retired now, but still goes to church with us, and I hear him tell grown men, in public, that he loves them. Hmmmm, what's so wierd about a pastor loving people??? (that's a sad commentary by itself!!) At first, I thought it was really wierd, but then I saw that that was exactly how he hugged his grandkids, who are just a few years younger than us, and I realized he just wanted to nurture us and let us know he cared for us.

The bottom line, is that if it really bothers you, you should go ask him about it. If he does see you almost as his kids (and in a way, you're part of his flock, so you are :) ) then you should feel honored. If you're getting the "yucky old man" vibe after you talk it out with him, then you should find another church. Don't do anything drastic until you talk to him, and don't freak out and let your imagination get crazy either. If you find it's still bugging you, go talk to him, as a brother. If you feel he's just expressing his love for you, be glad your pastor truly cares for you.

[Tappanga]

This is a really hard call you know
I am a pretty huggy pastor
and if I know some one well I might give them a kiss on the cheek


See, I think you said it right there. If you knew them well. It was the OPs wife's third visit to the church (correct?). That's too creepy for third time there (and I'm a huggy baptist in the south).

I'd pray over it, and watch him closely.

[arunma]

Filly, everything you wrote suggests that this isn't really a big deal. I think your pastor is a bit foolish, because in today's sexually perverse society, everything is looked upon with suspicion. But it seems to me that he was only trying to be friendly.

As for the OCD issue, just remember that it isn't your pastor who saves you, it's God. If you are saved while at this church, and then notice that the church is ungodly, then that seems to me like sure evidence that you are saved. After all, Martin Luther was also saved while attending the then-ungodly Catholic Church. Does that negate his salvation?

And of course, part of being a Baptist is acknowledging that baptism does nothing to save us. Only God can save us.

[filly]

Would he kiss your wife on the cheek in front of you?

It strikes me as odd that this first occurred away from your presence...but of course I don't know nearly enough to really comment.

I don't know...this is the first time he's done it. Also, why do you think he leaves almost immediately after service is over? His house is about 100 yards from the church, and a couple of times (we've only been there 3 or 4 times) he's walking home before we've even left the parking lot. Just seems a little odd. Of course, there's only 30-40 people there, but I don't know...

Absolutely! I would also encourage you to talk further with Pastor George.

Welcome to the Baptist forum!! You will be in my prayers as you continue on your journey.

Who's Pastor George? And thanks for the welcome.

[filly]

You can be saved anywhere, anytime. It is up to you and has nothing to do with procedure outside of what Scripture says that you have to do.

Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control.
Admit that you are a sinner.


Romans 6:23a
"...The wages of sin is death..."
Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin.
But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity.
The Bible does plainly teach that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever.
It is the place where people end up that remain spiritually dead.
Understand that you deserve death for your sin.


Romans 6:23b
"...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Salvation is a free gift from God to you! We can't earn this gift, but we must reach out and receive it.
Ask God to forgive you and save you.


Romans 5:8
"God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"
When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the cosmic price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life.


Romans 10:13
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"
Call out to God in the name of Jesus!


Romans 10:9,10
"...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
If you know that God is knocking on your heart door,
ask Him to come into your heart.


Jesus said,
Revelation 3:20a
"Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..."
Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?

John 1:12
"As many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God,
even to those who believe in His name!"


If you want to be Saved, all you have to do is believe in Christ as your personal Savior and ask Jesus to enter your life. A prayer something like this is all you need, but anything with the same intent in your own words will work as well. Talk to God. He is there for you and while He deserves our utmost repsect, He is our friend and does not need high and mighty speech to be reached:

Heavenly Father,
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you all the day's of my Life!. Because your word is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed by the Blood of Jesus! In Jesus Name, Amen.


If you just prayed this prayer and you accept and believe all that it says, then you are Saved. Go spread the news to your pastor and to those in the Church!

God bless,
Dave
Thanks, daveleau. There are two reasons I am not saved yet. The first is that I have a problem with "Believe in God and you will be saved." I don't think that I have enough belief to be saved. I am a very rational, methodical, analytical person, and these traits seem to be my undoing when it comes to believing in God. I simply can't get over the Genesis account and the Bible's timeline for our existence in this world compared to that of the scientific view of millions or billions of years. Honestly, this is the only thing holding me back (aside from the second reason which I don't have time at this moment to get into). If the Bible is without error, then the two timelines don't match up...at all. Am I just supposed to turn a blind eye and brush off all the scientific data? If I do so, then I don't feel I truly believe. And I can't ask Christ to save me if I have any reservations or doubts.

[arunma]

Thanks, daveleau. There are two reasons I am not saved yet. The first is that I have a problem with "Believe in God and you will be saved." I don't think that I have enough belief to be saved. I am a very rational, methodical, analytical person, and these traits seem to be my undoing when it comes to believing in God. I simply can't get over the Genesis account and the Bible's timeline for our existence in this world compared to that of the scientific view of millions or billions of years. Honestly, this is the only thing holding me back (aside from the second reason which I don't have time at this moment to get into). If the Bible is without error, then the two timelines don't match up...at all. Am I just supposed to turn a blind eye and brush off all the scientific data? If I do so, then I don't feel I truly believe. And I can't ask Christ to save me if I have any reservations or doubts.

Perhaps you should check this website:

http://www.godandscience.org/

It's written by a Christian who's also a biologist, and he does a good job of harmonizing the creation account with science (he also believes that the earth is 4 billion years old).

Also, have you considered theistic evolution? Many blood-washed Christians believe in evolution. I personally don't believe in evolution, but it is possible to take the creation account figuratively and still have a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Of all the miracles in the Bible, the only one you have to believe is that Christ Jesus died on the cross to redeem you, and that God resurrected him on the third day.

By the way, I'm very glad to hear that despite some unbelief, you're still open to the Gospel. Please don't give up on Jesus!

[filly]

Perhaps you should check this website:



It's written by a Christian who's also a biologist, and he does a good job of harmonizing the creation account with science (he also believes that the earth is 4 billion years old).

Also, have you considered theistic evolution? Many blood-washed Christians believe in evolution. I personally don't believe in evolution, but it is possible to take the creation account figuratively and still have a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Of all the miracles in the Bible, the only one you have to believe is that Christ Jesus died on the cross to redeem you, and that God resurrected him on the third day.

By the way, I'm very glad to hear that despite some unbelief, you're still open to the Gospel. Please don't give up on Jesus!

Give up? Oh, no, that couldn't be further from the truth.

[desert_island_1]

I have a very huggy pastor at my church. I really like him and he has been my pastor the whole time I have been going to his church (9 years this month) He only recently started hugging me because he feels he should know a person very well before he starts to hug them. I still do not get very good vibes from your pastor doing this just because you haven't known him very long.

[filly]

Perhaps you should check this website:



It's written by a Christian who's also a biologist, and he does a good job of harmonizing the creation account with science (he also believes that the earth is 4 billion years old).

Also, have you considered theistic evolution? Many blood-washed Christians believe in evolution. I personally don't believe in evolution, but it is possible to take the creation account figuratively and still have a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Of all the miracles in the Bible, the only one you have to believe is that Christ Jesus died on the cross to redeem you, and that God resurrected him on the third day.

By the way, I'm very glad to hear that despite some unbelief, you're still open to the Gospel. Please don't give up on Jesus!

So I can be a Christian and still have questions/doubts about a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation? I believe God exists. I want to live my life in accordance with Him. I just don't know if I believe in the 6 days of creation. Scientific evidence refutes it, so I have a problem. This is one reason I feel I can't be saved. What are the "early man" fossils? I don't want to believe that we came from them. What are the other options? Are they totally different species, such as birds, fish, etc., but they just happen to very closely resemble human beings?

[Alexis OCA]

. She mentioned why she had come alone....

Because you were sick right? Sounds like a "hope everything is ok, take care" display of affection. I would forget about it.

[jusluvm]

The church you have described sounds just like my church! Mostly "senior citizens" and everyone is really very familiar with each other. We truly are like family. Very blessed, indeed! I've been there for 25 years and we've had about 5 different pastors---most of them in their elder years---and I know I've been kissed by at least a couple of them.

I really feel that this kiss could have been just a reflexive thing from your pastor. If you haven't gotten any other bad signals, I'd forget it. If it was just reflex, it'll probably never happen again---or at least not for a long while. If it's actually a habit of his to do this, it'll probably happen regularly!

However, if you have gotten or do get any other signals that make you uncomfortable, that would be the time for concern. I'm just really sorry that this has even had to be an issue for you at your new church.

In the meantime, beware---us southern folk do like our huggin' and kissin'!

[JPPT1974]

I have a very sensitive and sympathetic preacher as he's got a huge, huge conscious and always there to help his people in need doing the Lord's work.

[Ginny]

So I can be a Christian and still have questions/doubts about a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation?

filly....I love all of your questions....Jesus loves us when we come to Him "like a child"...I think your heart is very soft right now and you are a hair away from belonging to God and joining us all in Heaven one day.

We are always going to have questions, and we are always going to have doubts. The cause ... (his name is Satan, by the way). In fact, during this time you are going to have the most doubt and most questions. Satan knows you are so close to salvation and he does not want another person to become a threat to him and his goal of turning people away from Christ.

I believe God exists. I want to live my life in accordance with Him. I just don't know if I believe in the 6 days of creation. Scientific evidence refutes it, so I have a problem. This is one reason I feel I can't be saved. What are the "early man" fossils? I don't want to believe that we came from them. What are the other options? Are they totally different species, such as birds, fish, etc., but they just happen to very closely resemble human beings?

I realize that you are wanting science to match up with God b/c of the characteristics that you possess. I suggest that you ask God whole heartedly to speak to you and ask that He keep Satan away from you while you search for Jesus. He is standing at the door waiting to hear your knock.
Jesus is right there waiting for you.

Matthew 7:7 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=7&version=31&context=verse)
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.

I have heard one pray....Jesus, I am looking for concrete evidence that you exist. I need to know that you are real. I believe you are but I need proof. I feel you are here and wanting me to accept you. Please help my unbelief and doubt. I want to know you but I do not know how. Will you show me? I know I need you as my Lord and Saviour.

I suggest you go and find a quiet place with no distractions. Ask God to clear your mind so that He can speak to you and you would hear Him. I beg you to do this. Your posting here was meant to be, I feel. Go to God...don't delay. Turn off your computer. He promises that He will come to you if you seek Him. I really feel burdened for you right now. Go to God and He will give you the answers you need. We can help direct you in the right direction, but only through Him will he assist in opening your heart for Him to come in.

:groupray:

[rural_preacher]

I suggest you go and find a quiet place with no distractions. Ask God to clear your mind so that He can speak to you and you would hear Him. I beg you to do this. Your posting here was meant to be, I feel. Go to God...don't delay. Turn off your computer. He promises that He will come to you if you seek Him. I really feel burdened for you right now. Go to God and He will give you the answers you need. We can help direct you in the right direction, but only through Him will he assist in opening your heart for Him to come in.


Psalm 46:10

"Be still, and know that I am God."

James 1:5

"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him."



--

[arunma]

So I can be a Christian and still have questions/doubts about a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation? I believe God exists. I want to live my life in accordance with Him. I just don't know if I believe in the 6 days of creation. Scientific evidence refutes it, so I have a problem. This is one reason I feel I can't be saved. What are the "early man" fossils? I don't want to believe that we came from them. What are the other options? Are they totally different species, such as birds, fish, etc., but they just happen to very closely resemble human beings?

Filly, you can be a Christian and believe anything you want about the creation account. Heck, you don't need to believe in any part of the Old Testament, except that it points to Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that whoever believes in Christ crucified and resurrected will be saved. The Gospel doesn't come with any strings. Faith in Jesus Christ is the gift of God, and it doesn't come from any works of the Law. Just believe in the Lord Jesus, and show your love for him by obeying his commandments.

Now, I personally believe that evolution is a false doctrine. But it certainly isn't a salvation issue. If I were to say that you had to believe in a specific doctrine, I would be guilty of legalism. Recieve Jesus, and you will be saved.

[novcncy]

Thanks, daveleau. There are two reasons I am not saved yet. The first is that I have a problem with "Believe in God and you will be saved." I don't think that I have enough belief to be saved. I am a very rational, methodical, analytical person, and these traits seem to be my undoing when it comes to believing in God. I simply can't get over the Genesis account and the Bible's timeline for our existence in this world compared to that of the scientific view of millions or billions of years. Honestly, this is the only thing holding me back (aside from the second reason which I don't have time at this moment to get into). If the Bible is without error, then the two timelines don't match up...at all. Am I just supposed to turn a blind eye and brush off all the scientific data? If I do so, then I don't feel I truly believe. And I can't ask Christ to save me if I have any reservations or doubts.

Hi Filly. I think you already believe in God. Your rational, methodiacl, analytical approach to life has told you there is NO way that the universe can exist out of nothing. SOMEONE had to make it. I'll talk more on it in a miunute, but believing in God is simply agreeing to a fact, like the earth is round, ....it doesn't actually have anything to do with salvation. The devils also believe, and tremble.

A little bit on resolving the apparent discrepancies between "science" and the Bible. First, and most importantly, is figuring out who God is. If you believe He is a fallible, bumbling, incomptent, profane diety like Zeus or Jupiter or some other god, then you do indeed have a dilemma. On the other hand, if He is an omnipotent, omnipresence, omniscient God, then He can do anything He wants to. Our understanding does not limit God. So if He says something is a certain way, it is that way, whether or not we can understand it. I hear so many people when confronted with who God is, make a statement like "Well, I don't believe that is so, " etc. etc. Our belief does not shape reality. It reminds me of the general population of the "civilized" world in 1491. The science of the time supported the general consensus that the earth was flat. But science, and popular opinion, did not change the FACT that the world was round. Now science has indeed come a LONG LONG way since then, but it is still an example of how science is not infallible. We can improve it, but we will NEVER know all that there is to know. (Which, in itself, points to a creator!)

Secondly, once you realize that God can do whatever He deems necessary, whether or not we undertand it, I think you need to think about the possibility that God could have created the Earth with an apperance of age. The problem with "science" is that it is built on a premise that is impossible to prove, that the globe was originally featureless. Also, by discounting the Genesis account of a worldwide flood, no consideration is given to the impacts made on geology, fossils, etc, by the flood. Also, no consideration is given to the Genesis record that "God seperated the dry land from the seas". What exactly is that? What effect could the divine hand of God have on the geologic "record"! I wholeheartedly agree that had the earth started out perfectly flat, and had the flood never occured, then it would have taken millions and millions of years for things like mountains, canyons, etc. etc. to form. All I'm suggesting to you, is that perhaps that is how God created them. Look at Adam...God created Him as an adult, a fully matured human being. Why would He not have created the earth in a similar fashion?

So I've tried to show you how faith that God is who He says He is, is far more important that understanding WHY God is who He says He is. Somethings, you just have to believe, whether or not you understand them. A good example is when you fly on an airplane. You buy your ticket, show up to the airport, get on the plain, and wholeheartedly expect to land in Hawaii, or wherever it is you were headed. But do you understand exactly how the jet engines on a 747 work? Unless you're jet mechanic or aerospace engineer, I doubt you know how they work. Do you understand the mathematics and the physics involved in getting a machine weighing hundreds of thousands of pounds to climb tens of thousands of feet and transport you thousands of miles with precise accuracy? Probalby you do not understand all of these factors in intimate detail. But you have faith that the airplane will fly and that you will get where you're going, because the FAA or someone SAYS it will do those things. I could use lots of examples, but I hope that's sufficent to show you that you place your faith in fallible men every day. Yet you have difficulty placing your faith in a PERFECT, INFALLIBLE, ALL POWERFUL God? In fact, until you realize this, I don't know if you can actually be saved. I know that's pretty shocking, but follow me. Can anyone ever understand salvation? The atonement on the cross? The why of it all, why God would even consider redeeming man in the first place? Much less, the way it actually works? Why Jesus had to shed His blood? How that can actually pay for your sins? I promise you that you will NEVER understand all of these things, at least as long as you're here in your mortal body. But God says that is how it works, so you have to believe Him. That is part of what Paul is talking about when he says in 1 Corinthians 1:23 - but we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block and unto the Greeks foolishness; The Greeks were a very intellectual culture, and because they couldn't logically resolve faith in Christ, it was foolishness. Don't fall into the same trap that has condemned billions, starting with Adam and Eve not understanding WHY God forbid them to eat the fruit. Realize that you need to be saved as soon as possible, and that salvation is based on you believing, having the faith, that God will do what He says He will do, and that His promise is not conditional on your comprehension. 2 Corinthians 6:2 - behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.

So to answer your question, yes, you should turn a blind eye to the "scientific" data, because as overwhelming as it may seem, it is still fallible, and it is built on fallible premises. God is infallible, and perfectly able to do exactly has He has said. You have accurately seen that if you can't trust that God is unable to make a mistake, then you can't trust Him to save you, and we are all doomed. I will pray for you. I think you are almost there, and I am very burdened to see you cast yourself and your future, lock, stock, and barrel, into the loving arms of your Saviour. He has promised that He will catch you, but do you believe Him?