"Human Responsibility" - need some help

[Behe's Boy]

Can someone explain this term in light of Calvinism - and what precisely is meant by it? I've heard it spoken of in some reformed circles - but never explained. My first knee jerk reaction to this is that they are trying to teach that we are somehow responsible in our salvation - to do good works, keep the law, be completely righteous. But after looking into it I think that what is being said is simply that the unelect will have no excuse in eternity. Can any one elaborate for me?

[Elderone]

Can someone explain this term in light of Calvinism - and what precisely is meant by it? I've heard it spoken of in some reformed circles - but never explained. My first knee jerk reaction to this is that they are trying to teach that we are somehow responsible in our salvation - to do good works, keep the law, be completely righteous. But after looking into it I think that what is being said is simply that the unelect will have no excuse in eternity. Can any one elaborate for me?

The subject of "Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility" can be difficult to get a grip on.

The best help I can offer are the following two sites which address the subject and are only a page or two long.

http://www.crcna.org/whatweoffer/resources/sermons/Groen_1Ki22.asp
(http://www.crcna.org/whatweoffer/resources/sermons/Groen_1Ki22.asp)
http://www.freegrace.net/dfbooks/dfactsbk/ACTS77.htm
(http://www.crcna.org/whatweoffer/resources/sermons/Groen_1Ki22.asp)

The are many more sites which go into it much deeper.

Hopefully this will be of some help.

[Behe's Boy]

Thanks Roger - good stuff...

[cygnusx1]

Can someone explain this term in light of Calvinism - and what precisely is meant by it? I've heard it spoken of in some reformed circles - but never explained. My first knee jerk reaction to this is that they are trying to teach that we are somehow responsible in our salvation - to do good works, keep the law, be completely righteous. But after looking into it I think that what is being said is simply that the unelect will have no excuse in eternity. Can any one elaborate for me?

Hi Brother , here is a small but significant quote that should help , when I find more I will let you know ....... :wave:


"The second of the wills of God, His preceptive will, refers to that which God has revealed to us through His Biblical precepts. God's preceptive will is not hidden from us as with His decretive will. This includes such things as the Decalogue and Christ's command to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" (Mat 22:37). This is what the Lord wills us to do and we can and do refuse to do it at times! We are charged with abiding by the precepts of God's revealed will to us in Scripture. The rest is God's business. For as it says in Isaiah, "'…my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways' declares the LORD" (Is 55:8). That we can and do transgress God's preceptive will does not indicate that God's ultimate plans are somehow thwartable. Indeed, even transgression of and want of conformity to God's precepts fits in within His perfect plan for the redemption of mankind.

Nevertheless, we are responsible for following God's precepts. It is not within our province to say "Let us do evil that good may come" (Rom 3:8) It is God's business to use evil for good, not ours. If God allows sin, He allows it for an altogether good purpose. If we sin, however, we sin to sin, not that good may come. To say otherwise is to heap condemnation on oneself. We are responsible for that which God's reveals to us; that He commands us to do.

Finally, the third will of God, His will of disposition, describes those things which are pleasing or bring delight to God. Theologian, R.C. Sproul describes God's will of disposition thusly:


This will describes God's attitude…For example, God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, yet He most surely wills or decrees the death of the wicked. God's ultimate delight is in His own holiness and righteousness. When He judges the world, He delights in the vindication of His own righteousness and justice, yet He is not gleeful in a vindictive sense toward those who receive His judgment. God is pleased when we find our pleasure in obedience. He is sorely displeased when we are disobedient.


http://www.monergism.com/thethresho...e/Murphy01.html (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/Murphy01.html)

[Rolf Ernst]

Though Adam's fall resulted in his (and our) inability do that which is right in regard to God, it certainly did not relieve him/us from ANY responsibility Godward which Adam had before his fall. Christ is God's standard both before and after Adam's disobedience, and man's corruption did not in ANY way relieve man of ANY duty Godward.

Therefore, though men are depraved, God has the right to command "all men everywhere" to act (in every instance) in accord with the upright state in which God created him. Therefore the Arminian dodge that man MUST have a remaining ability to do this or that because God could not or would not otherwise command it is a false premise.

Christ, from everlasting to everlasting, is God's standard and man's inability as a consequence of Adam's sin did NOT in anyway cause God's holy standard to be defiled.

[rnmomof7]

I think judas is another good example. The plan of Jesus to die at the hands of a betrayer was ordained before the foundation of the world.
Jesus always knew who it was that would betray him as it was a foreordained act, he even warned of the consequence of it .. yet Judas was fully responsible for it.

[CoffeeSwirls]

If the matter of responsibility vs. ability is difficult still, ask yourself if God's standard should be moved to compensate for man or if it is truly necessary for an atoning sacrifice to be made for our shortcomings. Without full responsibility there is nothing to atone for. Without atonement, there is no promise in Christ. Praise the Lord that every single requirement of God is maintained and fulfilled in Christ for His elect!

Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Behe's Boy]

Thanks all - for the great responses. You confirmed what I already knew... and Coffee your statement: "responsibility vs. ability" caused a light bulb to click on inside my small brain....

i/C
Dave

[cygnusx1]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/userinfo/happybirthday.gif It's rnmomof7's birthday today!

Happy Birthday Sister :clap: :clap: :clap:

That thing we were discussing , I am happy for you to open it to the Lutherans , I would welcome a joint shairing ....... we just need to decide which 'prize' , I leave it with you to Pm a few people and get the ball rolling , then I will be happy to cough up ;)

[cygnusx1]

Back to the OP :)


Here's a question
relating to human responsibilty , does God hold us resonsible on the grounds of "Free-will" ? or some other ground ;)

I say it is some other ground ......... and I may develope that as we go on ... D.V.

[CoffeeSwirls]

"responsibility vs. ability" caused a light bulb to click on inside my small brain....

i/C
Dave

Don't discount your brain. Mine is about the size of a peanut! ^_^