Mark 16:16

[2scoops]

Mark 16:16 (King James Version)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I know I have been taught my whole life that one does not need to be baptized to be saved. But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.

[eldermike]

The "and" is cumulative for 2 things rolled into one action. This is a belief that's given by the Holy Spirit, it is baptism. So belief and baptism = One action by God to the saved person. I want a cup of coffee with cream and sugar. I don't want a cup of coffee with cream and then sugar, I want them both at the same time in the same cup.

[Andyman_1970]

In that verse the only condition for damnation is that of unbelief (second part of the verse) - if this is the case and unblief is the only condition of damnation, then it would stand to reason baptism does not affect salvation.

If baptism is so essential to salvation why does Jesus not mention it more. When the rich young rule approaches Jesus and ask's how to have eternal life (olam habba), Jesus responds with "keep the commandments" - no mention of baptism.

If baptism is so essential why is it not even mentioned in Acts 15 when the leadership of the early church is determining what in fact does save a person - they conclude faith does.

If baptism is so essential why in John's epistle of 1 John, which John writes explicitly so that "you may know you have eternal life", does John not even mention the word baptize?

[mesue]

The baptism of water was for the Jews. It was John the Baptist's baptism. It was a symbol of cleansing and repentence.
We, who are saved by the blood of Christ, are baptized with the Holy Spirit.
To say that baptism is essential for salvation is to say:
1.) That Jesus needed salvation.
and
2.) The thief on the cross really wasn't saved therefore Jesus lied when he said:
Luke 23:43: And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Baptism is an outward sign to God's people that you are saved and desire to serve the Lord.

[rural_preacher]

Paul said in I Corinthians 1:17...

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

Paul makes a distinction between (water) baptism and the gospel (of salvation). Clearly baptism is something that is subsequent to and separate from salvation.

The only baptism that is an essential part of salvation is Spirit baptism. At the moment of salvation the Holy Spirit regenerates and indwells the new believer...He baptizes (immerses) that new believer into the body of Christ.

I Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Please do not be led astray by the false doctrine that requires water baptism for salvation. Salvation is by the Grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is simply a declaration of what has already taken place in your heart. One who is born again and dies before water baptism will stand redeemed in Christ's presence just the same as the one who has been baptized.

Ephesians 2:8-10

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."


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[eldermike]

That verse is not about water baptisim.

[Stinker]

This section of scripture is of such a late addition to the Greek text. There is a reason the Catholics added this. Especially Mk.16:16 It is because water baptism is the initiation into the physical church. So, of course they wanted to frighten as many people as possible into their organization. See the movie Luther if you doubt they were even capable of such a thing.

[newbeliever02072005]

Mark 16:16 (King James Version)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I know I have been taught my whole life that one does not need to be baptized to be saved. But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.

If I may?.....I am not to good at quoting bible verses yet or even understanding alot of it either. However, I was baptized on Easter Sunday. What made me be at peace with this decision was Jesus himself was baptized. So, why would I worry if I am doing something against the bible if it is mentioned he was baptized in the bible. When they describe how the heavens were opened and a voice spoke, a dove decended down towards Jesus what a beautiful picture I get in my head of that moment. After I was submerged in the water I vividly remember watching myself under the water. I could see the ripples of the water, what I was wearing, and a blurry vision of the preacher....even though my eyes were squeezed shut. I came back up a whole different person. I truly saw myself has a new creature for the Lord. It was absolutely AWESOME!!! The Holy Spirit was upon me that day, how great is that? So, if someone is having doubts about baptism...don't! Its an experience you don't want to miss!

I hope you get some peace and understanding about this bible verse. I know how it feels to not get it....its hard. Once you get that peace its great.

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[rural_preacher]

If I may?.....I am not to good at quoting bible verses yet or even understanding alot of it either. However, I was baptized on Easter Sunday. What made me be at peace with this decision was Jesus himself was baptized. So, why would I worry if I am doing something against the bible if it is mentioned he was baptized in the bible. When they describe how the heavens were opened and a voice spoke, a dove decended down towards Jesus what a beautiful picture I get in my head of that moment. After I was submerged in the water I vividly remember watching myself under the water. I could see the ripples of the water, what I was wearing, and a blurry vision of the preacher....even though my eyes were squeezed shut. I came back up a whole different person. I truly saw myself has a new creature for the Lord. It was absolutely AWESOME!!! The Holy Spirit was upon me that day, how great is that? So, if someone is having doubts about baptism...don't! Its an experience you don't want to miss!

I hope you get some peace and understanding about this bible verse. I know how it feels to not get it....its hard. Once you get that peace its great.

God Bless!
newbeliever :)

No one here is opposed to water baptism (after all, we are baptists). Jesus commanded us to be baptized. However, we must guard against the false teaching that there is regenerative or redemptive power in water baptism. The only baptism that is essential for salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the work of the Spirit placing us into the body of Christ). Water baptism is an important step of obedience and identification but is separate from and subsequent to salvation.


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[newbeliever02072005]

The only baptism that is essential for salvation is the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the work of the Spirit placing us into the body of Christ).--


When does this happen?

[rural_preacher]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

When does this happen?

At the moment of salvation. Without the work of the Holy Spirit there is no spiritual birth. At the moment that a person trusts in Jesus Christ as Savior the Holy Spirit come to indwell them, regenerate them (make them a new creature in Christ) and baptize them (immerse them into the body of Christ). All of that - indwelling, regenerating, baptizing, faith - happens simultaneously and instantly. That is what we call "getting saved".

Titus 3:5-7

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Romans 8:9

"If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience; rather, it is a fact. One who has come to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation receives all of the work of the Spirit at that moment. We are then called by God's Word to a life of walking in step with the Spirit (which is obedience to the Word). That is also referred to (in Ephesians 5:18) as being "filled with the Spirit".


--

[novcncy]

The "and" is cumulative for 2 things rolled into one action. This is a belief that's given by the Holy Spirit, it is baptism. So belief and baptism = One action by God to the saved person. I want a cup of coffee with cream and sugar. I don't want a cup of coffee with cream and then sugar, I want them both at the same time in the same cup.

Good post.

newbeliever, be wary of basing something on one verse. A principle or doctrine will fit with the whole of scripture. And as was mentioned, there is a great deal of debate regarding the legitimacy of the end of Mark in the Textus Receptus.

Keep studying and growing. You are quite an encouragement to me. Stay out of GA and arguments in general, and get grounded in the basics before anything else. Spend more time in the word, then you do on the net. :) The Holy Spirit will be a better teacher than human beings, although sometimes, He will use us too.

God Bless.

[bleechers]

One footnote: If someone wanted to add the section of Mark 16 not found in some manuscripts to prove water baptism is necessary for salvation (a doctrine taught by numerous groups) they should have read more closely.

Jesus also lists things that will follow those who believe, NONE of which are following those who believe today.

Baptism (or washings) was for Israel (as has been stated). Paul speaks of only ONE baptism in Ephesian 4:5 ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism"). That is solely the baptism of the Spirit. That is the baptism of the church of this age. If you add water baptism, you then have "two" baptisms.

Two cents. :)

Although I would not separate over water baptism so long as it is not taught as "necessary for salvation"... over that provision, I do separate.

In fact, my Baptist church baptizes... but I still fellowship there.

[newbeliever02072005]

Ok, So your question is ("he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved.) , is Jesus' telling us that we need to follow baptism?

My question would be is Jesus referring to the "Holy Spirit" baptism like rural_preacher is talking about?

But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.



Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

At the moment of salvation. Without the work of the Holy Spirit there is no spiritual birth. At the moment that a person trusts in Jesus Christ as Savior the Holy Spirit come to indwell them, regenerate them (make them a new creature in Christ) and baptize them (immerse them into the body of Christ). All of that - indwelling, regenerating, baptizing, faith - happens simultaneously and instantly. That is what we call "getting saved".
--


God Bless!
newbeliever :)

[MrJim]

This section of scripture is of such a late addition to the Greek text. There is a reason the Catholics added this. Especially Mk.16:16 It is because water baptism is the initiation into the physical church. So, of course they wanted to frighten as many people as possible into their organization. See the movie Luther if you doubt they were even capable of such a thing.

:o :confused: Guess I'll get my scissors out...

[arunma]

Let's just look at the logic of this. Jesus says that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but that whoever does not believe will be condemned. If he wanted to preach that baptism is necessary for salvation, he would have said "whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned." Belief and baptism will save a person, but that doesn't mean that belief without baptism isn't equally capable of saving people.

There's also the famous example of the sinner on the cross whom Jesus saved. We don't hear God say "wait Jesus, he hasn't been baptized yet!"

One more thing. Some have said that the baptism of Mark 16:16 is the baptism by the Holy Spirit. And everyone does need to be baptized by the Spirit to be saved. However, anyone who believes has already been baptized by the Spirit, so I think this interpretation makes sense too.

[MrJim]

[QUOTE=arunma]
There's also the famous example of the sinner on the cross whom Jesus saved. We don't hear God say "wait Jesus, he hasn't been baptized yet!"
[QUOTE]

Some would say that since it happened before the resurrection it would still fall under OT law-not technically under the New Covenant.

[bleechers]

not technically under the New Covenant.

Point of information: The New Covenant is solely with Israel (See Jeremiah and Hebrews).

8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Also note: When Cornelius believes he receives the Holy Spirit before he is baptized.

As for the passage being added, it would seem odd since what Jesus promised would follow believers did, in fact, follow believers all through the Book of Acts. Jesus' ministry was to Israel. After the cross His ministry (and Peter's) was still to Israel. Baptism was part of that Jewish priestly ministry. This was the period when Gentiles were "grafted in" to Israel and thus some were baptized in water.

There is only one baptism today ("one faith, one hope, one baptism") and it is Baptism by the Spirit into the Body (by faith alone).

[arunma]

Some would say that since it happened before the resurrection it would still fall under OT law-not technically under the New Covenant.

Yes I know. But this idea is totally unscriptural. Notice what you've written, "it woudl still fall under Old Testament Law." What salvation is there in the Old Testament? There is none. Those who lived before Jesus were saved only by believing in the promise of a Messiah, that is, in the promise of the New Covenant. Salvation is through Christ alone. There's no such thing as "being saved by the Old Covenant."

The Scripture teaches that the bodies of many Old Testament saints were raised to life at Jesus' death, because the curse of sin had finally been lifted. That's why Jesus could say that the sinner would be with him in paradise. The Old Covenant was a covenant of works, and we know that all are saved by grace, apart from works of the Law. Thus, it's quite wrong to think that Jesus saved the sinner through Moses. It was Christ himself (that is, the New Covenant) who saved the sinner. Don't you agree?

[daveleau]

Mark 16:16 (King James Version)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I know I have been taught my whole life that one does not need to be baptized to be saved. But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.

When we are saved, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. It is this baptism that saves. Water baptism is an outward confession of such and is our duty as Christians.
The greek for Baptism means to dip or to dye. We routinely assume that baptism has to do with water. But, there is water and spiritual baptism delineated in Scripture.

[MrJim]

[QUOTE=bleechers]Point of information: The New Covenant is solely with Israel (See Jeremiah and Hebrews).
[QUOTE]

What?
I guess you're right, since the church is the new Israel. Is that what you're saying (Rom 11 I think).

[MrJim]

Yes I know. But this idea is totally unscriptural. Notice what you've written, "it woudl still fall under Old Testament Law." What salvation is there in the Old Testament? There is none. Those who lived before Jesus were saved only by believing in the promise of a Messiah, that is, in the promise of the New Covenant. Salvation is through Christ alone. There's no such thing as "being saved by the Old Covenant."

The Scripture teaches that the bodies of many Old Testament saints were raised to life at Jesus' death, because the curse of sin had finally been lifted. That's why Jesus could say that the sinner would be with him in paradise. The Old Covenant was a covenant of works, and we know that all are saved by grace, apart from works of the Law. Thus, it's quite wrong to think that Jesus saved the sinner through Moses. It was Christ himself (that is, the New Covenant) who saved the sinner. Don't you agree?

Perhaps my phrasing isn't correct. I'm repeating what I've heard on this so don't count me as the authority. The idea as I understand it is that the same "rules" applied to the thief on the cross as it did for any of the OT people. They will say he's gone to "Abraham's Bosom" or something like that and that's why the baptism wasn't necessary. I wish I could remember where I ran across this idea...

[A Brother In Christ]

Mark 16:16 (King James Version)16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


I know I have been taught my whole life that one does not need to be baptized to be saved. But the words spoken by Jesus here says he that believeth and IS BAPTIZED shall be saved. Right now, I'm am not relying on what man says to be saved, but what the bible says. What are your thoughts n this verse. I've heard grace and faith my whole life, but Jesus is saying we need to follow is baptism.

Lets say a person has believed in vain and water bapized does not help

once a person believes they are baptized into Christ by the Spirit.
1cor 12:12-13, romans 8:9b

man can not fulfill this requirement

[A Brother In Christ]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit...



At the moment of salvation. Without the work of the Holy Spirit there is no spiritual birth. At the moment that a person trusts in Jesus Christ as Savior the Holy Spirit come to indwell them, regenerate them (make them a new creature in Christ) and baptize them (immerse them into the body of Christ). All of that - indwelling, regenerating, baptizing, faith - happens simultaneously and instantly. That is what we call "getting saved".

Titus 3:5-7

"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."

I Corinthians 12:13

"For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

Romans 8:9

"If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an experience; rather, it is a fact. One who has come to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation receives all of the work of the Spirit at that moment. We are then called by God's Word to a life of walking in step with the Spirit (which is obedience to the Word). That is also referred to (in Ephesians 5:18) as being "filled with the Spirit".


--

sorry did not read ahead..

[arunma]

What?
I guess you're right, since the church is the new Israel. Is that what you're saying (Rom 11 I think).

I agree. The New Covenant is with Israel, but Israel is now the church, and is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles.

Perhaps my phrasing isn't correct. I'm repeating what I've heard on this so don't count me as the authority. The idea as I understand it is that the same "rules" applied to the thief on the cross as it did for any of the OT people. They will say he's gone to "Abraham's Bosom" or something like that and that's why the baptism wasn't necessary. I wish I could remember where I ran across this idea...

I've heard precisely the same idea from certain persons who believe in infant baptism. As far as infant baptism goes, there are two schools of thought about the sinner on the cross. The first is that he was saved under the Old Covenant, which as I said, is totally unbiblical (actually, this view is in the minority, as far as I know). The second view is that he was saved by "baptism by blood."

Baptism by blood is a Roman Catholic belief. It states that Christian martyrs and other people who die before recieving water baptism are still saved because they earnestly to be baptized, but were unable to. Notice that I said "still saved," because Roman Catholics believe, nonetheless, that one must be baptized to be saved. I don't fully understand this view, because I would think that all unbaptized Christians desire to be baptized in order to fulfill Christ's command.

Personally, I think the most reasonable conclusion is that water baptism does nothing to save. To say otherwise would be to invoke legalism.

[MrJim]

Baptism by blood is a Roman Catholic belief. It states that Christian martyrs and other people who die before recieving water baptism are still saved because they earnestly to be baptized, but were unable to.

Baptism of Blood is also an anabaptist belief. Difference is that it was a believer's baptism and also not a salvation baptism. Story is told of at least one man who was imprisoned because he was a believer and executed before he could be baptized. It was considered that he recieved a baptism of blood (Martyr's Mirror). I supposed we'd recognize this more if we lived in a country where Christians were persecuted.

[A Brother In Christ]

I agree. The New Covenant is with Israel, but Israel is now the church, and is comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles.


.

verses please ....so one can confirm thu the scriptures


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew or Greek [no relgious status], there is neither bond or free [no social status], there is neither male or female [sexual status] : for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

one ? what?

one body which is the Christ as Jesus as the head. 1 cor 12:12-31

[arunma]

Here are some Scripture passages that are generally used to support the belief that the church is Israel.

Romans 2:28-29, "For  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn1)no one is a Jew  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn2)who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn3)inwardly, and  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn4)circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn5)His praise is not from man but from God."

Romans 9:6-8, "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn1)because they are his offspring, but p “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn3)the children of the promise are counted as offspring."

And the last is one verse after what you quoted.

Galatians 3:29, "And  (http://www.christianforums.com/t1550657-mark-1616.html&page=3#_ftn1)if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, bheirs according to promise."

[arunma]

Oh, here's another one that I just ran into today!

Phillipians 3:3, "For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh."

[A Brother In Christ]

Let read revelation 2:9, or 3:7

why does God make a point of it.

[constance]

Baptism of Blood is also an anabaptist belief. Difference is that it was a believer's baptism and also not a salvation baptism. Story is told of at least one man who was imprisoned because he was a believer and executed before he could be baptized. It was considered that he recieved a baptism of blood (Martyr's Mirror). I supposed we'd recognize this more if we lived in a country where Christians were persecuted.

Menno! Do you like my sig?

Constance