Moses - Compiler of Genesis?

[muffler dragon]

I had asked a similar question on the CF under Exposition and I didn't get too much of a response except negation of this consideration. I really would like to know your guys' takes on this thought.

It's been stated before by Henry Morris in The Genesis Record that the book of Genesis was a work of compilation by Moses up until his birth instead of a matter of inspiration and dictation. In short, Adam wrote the first part, then Seth, then Noah, then Noahs sons, then Shem, then Abraham... and so on. These 'books' were then given to Moses and he edited and compiled. Is this something of credence by Hebrew scholars or is it viewed more as a matter of inspiration and dictation between God, Moses and a scribe?

[simchat_torah]

What you refer to is what is commonly called "the Book of J". You see, various self proclaimed scholars, let's call them pseudoscholars, have seen that the Torah seemingly is comprised of a variety of writings styles. Others disagree, but ignore that fact for a moment. Rather than saying G-d, in his infinite personality and wisdom has the ability to be creative and expressive in many different ways, these pseudoscholars would have you believe that Moshe did not write the Torah at all, but compiled it together from various traditions. (some will go as far as to say that these events did not take place at all!)

These pseudoschoalrs then claim that these various traditions and/or books came from a different original manuscript called... dun dun dah... "The Book of J". Despite the lack of evidence for a "Book of J", these pseudoscholars want to play fairy tale. Their fairy tales, merely because they have the little letters "Dr." in front of their name, become "theories" and these theories become fact. I have had professors in college attempt to teach me these "facts" of the book of J, trying to denounce the Torah as an historical document.

I called them on in.

In fact, I called them a pseudoscholar ;)

Well, needless to say, there is absolutely no evidence for a book of J. All evidence, historical and otherwise, points to a single author... and even more so, the Biblical events are more than verified by history.

So... where do these pseudoscholars come up with these theories without any proof?

playing fairy tale.

Shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

Its kinda like those people who claim that aliens created the human race because the don't like the idea of a G-d, and they see the invalidity of evolution.

Question: Who then created the aliens?

;)


ahhh... the joys of pseudoscholars. Life wouldn't be the same without them.


shalom,
yafet

[muffler dragon]

Its kinda like those people who claim that aliens created the human race because the don't like the idea of a G-d, and they see the invalidity of evolution.

Question: Who then created the aliens?

;)


ahhh... the joys of pseudoscholars. Life wouldn't be the same without them.


shalom,
yafet
Please forgive me Yafet for not clarifying this earlier, but I wasn't meaning it as a matter of higher or literary criticism. I was not coming from the direction of discounting anything.

This is simply what I was meaning:

Genesis 5:1 (NKJV) This is the book of the geneology of Adam.
Genesis 10:1 (NKJV) Now this is the geneology of the sons of Noah

And this happens a few more times.

The direction that Henry Morris was coming from was that these were eyewitness accounts to the events that occurred. This is simply a matter of saying who saw them. I had brought them up in another thread one time, because I was trying to help people understand why I am a young earth creationist. My contention was that the book of Genesis was written by eye witnesses; therefore, there would be even less of a factor of allegorizing the material.

I brought this hear simply to find out if there was any rabbinic consideration of this type.

I apologize tremedously for presenting the thought of disclaiming the inerrancy and God-breathed nature of the Bible, let alone the Torah. I completely and wholeheartedly believe in the Word of God, Tanakah and BH (my spelling is horrible on terms used on this part of the forum).

Please let me know if this clears up the argument.

Sincerely,

Nathan

[Plan 9]

At the risk of being called a pseudo-scholar, perhaps with some justice, a very few of the Genesis accounts, the oldest ones, do appear to be in a form which would facilitate their being faithfully passed along in an oral tradition; to wit, the creation accounts.
I am in no way advocating the "JEDP" theory, or any other multiple author theory, here. I am speaking only of passages which appear to me to be constructed to be easily remembered and passed along, and I consider them things of real literary beauty of that special sort, as well as conveying G-d's truth to us, his children.
Keeping that in mind that I am not doing that, Yafet, in what way would it invalidate Moses's authorship of the Torah, if he had heard these accounds told (or sung) to him, recognized them as inspired, and included them?
Please explain to me the nature of my error, and the harm in it, supposing it is. :blush:

[Toney]

Shalom,

Forgive me, please. I presume to enter this discussion solely to interpolate balance given that my scholarly friend Yafet, who I hold in the highest esteem and wish never to offend, indelicately employed the pejorative term pseudoslcholar six times and the derisive moniker fairy tale three times in his post. Suspecting therefore that he may be rather strongly attached to his viewpoint, I do not wish to challenge it although others have.

For instance, to visit a shall we say less fundamentalist viewpoint, one that takes exception to Mosaic authorship of the Torah, examine the works of R.E. Friedman, Professor of Hebrew who holds a distinguished Chair at the University of California and who earned a doctorate from Harvard, and also David Clines, Editor of the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew and Professor of Biblical Studies at the University of Sheffield. Some would consider these two men, author of Who Wrote the Bible? and World Biblical Commentary respectively, worthy of more respect than your run of the mill pseudoscholar.

[simchat_torah]

Of course there are a number things in the Torah that were most likely written down in one of two ways...
a) second hand knowledge of the events (ie: traditions and stories passed down from generation to generation)
or
b) divine knowledge (ie: G-d divinely related these stories to Moshe)

However, no evidence exists that there were multiple authors. I would like to note, however, that the torah itself admits to referencing other books. But again, the words within the torah itself come from Moshe.

There is a difference, albeit a fine line.

Did Moshe borrow from previous traditions? yes.

However, make no mistake that it was Moshe who wrote down these traditions, it was Moshe who compiled it into what we now call the Torah. Simply put, no evidence what so ever exists to the multiple authors theory.

(of course, I'm ignoring the 'death of moses' story arc ;), as Judaism will tell you one of two answers, G-d prophetically told Moses [which he did atop the moutain] of his own death, or Aaron finished those last few sentances)


shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

At the risk of being called a pseudo-scholar

Just to get it out of the way....


Plan9, you pseudoscholar you!!!!

;)

now, what is it you want to share? :P

[torahlife]

Muffler Dragon,

You asked a question and got blasted for it. OK my pet peve is showing.
The world of archeology and literary research is out there for anyone interested enough to check it out. If it wasn't for desperatly wanting to know the truth I would have stuck my head in the sand and stayed within the boundaries of orthodoxy. I refused to do such and instead have spent years researching every avenue open to me and studied to seek out what is true and what is not. There are contradictory evidences out there to be sure, but to know what to believe you must then consider the evidences and decide for yourself as it's your faith, not someone elses. How far will you go in seeking an understanding of G-d's word is up to you.

Remember that men have been seeking to understand G-d from the very beginning. Interpretation comes from presuppositions and your current worldview. Our faith is what we make it and it belongs to us.

For information regarding the question you asked and more I would suggest you read the book, "Who Wrote the Bible" by Richard E Friedman.

Blessings on your studies,
torahlife

[Sephania]

......

[The Thadman]

Is the word Torah found in the Torah? How many times?

My Bible Software seems to think it occurs 88 times in the entire Tanakh. :-)

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[The Thadman]

:sorry:

[simchat_torah]

Often Torah is translated into English as:
Revelation
Light
Law
Righteousness
Truth

(and others, this is just off the top of my head)

[Sephania]

....................

[The Thadman]

Just for clarification, I was doing a search through the Aleppo Codex in Hebrew for "Tau-Wau-Reesh-He'" for that 88 count..

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

[Sephania]

..........

[Sephania]

..............

[muffler dragon]

Since my OP has been completely lost as far as direction, I thought I would ask for a yes or no situation:

Do any Hebrew/Jewish scholars look at the book of Genesis as a compilation that was edited and written by Moses from written or oral traditions of eyewitnesses, or not? I am simply trying to find out for my hypothesis when discussing literal six day creationism.

Thanks everyone.

[Toney]

I am glad you posted that diatribe, Zayit.

My guess is that Mr. Jones, author of the piece, is upset because no scholars will take the Bible Code or Torah Code seriously, nor should they. It certainly is a long leap to employ it in a refutation of the 'Documentary Theory.'

Using the same code method, one may find assassination predictions in Moby Dick (http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/moby.html). That link is a hoot, btw.

May I briefly add that I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of G-d regardless of who wrote/editied it and hold all its books (OT and NT) to the same critical standard. In no way does this endanger my faith; it enhances it. I eschew literal interpretation of the Bible -- there are over 1,000 Bible-based Protestant denominations and none has got it right -- and believe that reading scripture in any language or translation is like holding a prism to a beacon of light. Turn it a bit and you glean a different colour, a new insight.

P.S. Sorry, Nathan. Mosiac authorship/editorship of the Torah is as tenable as the Documentary Theory. If you are going to argue for literal six-day creationism, I would suggest invoking Mosaic authorship as gospel.

See: J.D. Douglas et al, "Old Testament Volume: New Commentary on the Whole Bible," Tyndale, Wheaton, IL, (1990)

[Flavius]

[QUOTE=simchat_torah]Its kinda like those people who claim that aliens created the human race because the don't like the idea of a G-d, and they see the invalidity of evolution.

Question: Who then created the aliens?

I wouldn't be so hasty as to say that there are no Aliens or that we weren't created by them.Most people allready know that the great pyramid of Giza houses a spaceship that will power up when the mother ship comes close enough to Earth.How would you explain Michael Jackson?

O well seriously one could formulate an Alien theory from the pages of Ezekiel when he saw the wheels turning inside wheels and such.

I was watching the experts on discovery the other day explain that Ezekiel never saw what he saw but that he used it to capture peoples attention.

It never fails to disappoint me that they can find so many experts on Tv to explain the bible and know so little about it.

Couple years ago they had the author of the Jesus Mysteries who tried to proove that Yeshuah never even lived and I was so surprized that they found preachers to agree with them.I don't get it? Why would a person be a preacher if he believed that Jesus never even lived? But yet there they are.

These people on TV speak with such great authority as if everything they say is fact.They present these people like they are the only authority.

If they have a debate they pick people like Jerry Fallwell.

I'de like to see them bring people from this Forum like Simchat-Torah and others.

Yeah people look for new theories to explain G-d so they can look so intelligent but they always look real stupid to me.

Most of them think Kind David never lived either,give me a break.

[Buccaneer]

Adam, Seth Noah? Was written language even invented then?

[Flavius]

This is interesting http://www.vendyljones.org.il/codes1.htm one would wonder how this could happen if only a man was copying down handed down stories and myths..............
I used to read his stuff years ago,Alot of people know him,they either really like him or don't like him at all but no doubt he's interesting.

[muffler dragon]

Adam, Seth Noah? Was written language even invented then?
Dear Buc:

There's really know reason to believe that Adam couldn't have written.

I, personally, am of the mindset that he was created perfect. If that is the case, then there was nothing lacking in him to learn (physically). He just happened to be very 'young' spiritually even though he happened to commune daily with the Source.

That's all just my opinion, but to answer your question shortly, I don't think writing ability evolved or happened over time.

[torahlife]

Buccaneer,

Written language as we know it today in it's most ancient alphabetic form is dated around 1700 BCE. Before that we know the Egytians used hieroglyphics. The earliest known alephbet was found at Ras Shamra, Ugarit north of Israel in which several dialects were found. The early Caananite west semitic peoples created this form of writing, the Phoenicians refined it and the Hebrews used it, then it moved to the Greeks and so on. The earliest surviving Hebrew writing is a calendar from 925 BCE.

No doubt Moshe could probably write in some ancient form as the exodus is dated approx 12,000 BCE, but there's no evidence that anyone before Abraham or even Isaac and Jacob could have written anything down. People used to be very skilled in passing down stories orally.

Blessings,
torahlife

[BeaucoupLaVie]

...but to know what to believe you must then consider the evidences and decide for yourself as it's your faith, not someone elses. How far will you go in seeking an understanding of G-d's word is up to you.

torahlife,


all I can say is, YES, YES, and YES!!! :)
************