Preterists come back

[Wildfire]

Something I have noticed among the preterists, is a pattern that goes like this:

I once was a futurist, I studied Revelations, I began to shout, noone wanted to hear me, I became frustrated, I did not understand, I gave up on my first belief, and became a preterist.

Where is your patience?
Watchers?

Come back to your first love, which was grasping the understanding of prophecy.

We are almost there,
Wildfire

[davo]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Something I have noticed among the preterists, is a pattern that goes like this:

I once was a futurist, I studied Revelations, I began to shout, noone wanted to hear me, I became frustrated, I did not understand, I gave up on my first belief, and became a preterist.

Where is your patience?
Watchers?

Come back to your first love, which was grasping the understanding of prophecy.

We are almost there,
Wildfire

G'day Wildfire :wave:

That maybe your understanding, or how you're reading things -and that's ok, however the only thing I personally can agree with from what you've said is:

I once was a futurist,

Don't tell me you're missing us already! :)

davo

[Azrael]

I'm sorry if this sounds stupid but I'm still new to all this. What is a Preterist? I would appreciate it if someone would help me understand this.

Thanks,
Azrael

[jenlu]

Wildfire...

I was frustrated...not because it wasn't happening, but because it didn't make sense...it didn't add up...sure the failed predictions make you wonder, but that was the least of what brought me to where I am now...thanks for caring, but I'll never return to the wholy futurist viewpoint...and I'm on my way to a wholly preterist viewpoint...don't know for sure, if I'll ever get there, but I'm on my way...

[parousia70]

Originally posted by davo

Don't tell me you're missing us already! :)

davo

That was my first thought Davo, when reading the thread title. I thought that Wildfire was going to give an impassioned plea for us Pret's to "come back" to the eschatology forum 'cause it's sooo boring there without us!

oh well, A guy can dream can't he?

[Acts6:5]

I began to shout, noone wanted to hear me, I became frustrated, I did not understand, I gave up on my first belief, and became a preterist.

Where, in any of our testimonies, can you find concepts of "no one hearing us", or "not understanding", let alone "giving up"? I have seen nothing of the sort in the testimonies presented here, and it certainly was not in my testimony.

The real pattern is this: we studied the scripture, we realized that some of what we believed was not supported by the scriptures, we took a great deal of time, prayer, and study to make sure that those new beliefs were true, and then we "gave up" what we realized was wrong. Now that is the real pattern.

I have plenty of patience - that's why I did not accept preterism at the drop of a hat, on a whim and a prayer, and that's why I still struggle to make sure my understanding of prophecy is in line with God's Word. That's perseverance, my friend. My first love is Jesus, not prophecy.

Hey Azrael! A Batman fan, perhaps? Anyway, a preterist is someone that believes in preterism; preterism is the end-time view that all or almost all end-time prophecies in the Bible were fulfilled by 70AD. Some of the scripture evidence that we believe upholds this view can be found here. http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

Please feel free to ask us any questions you want!

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Wildfire
Something I have noticed among the preterists, is a pattern that goes like this:

I once was a futurist, I studied Revelations, I began to shout, noone wanted to hear me, I became frustrated, I did not understand, I gave up on my first belief, and became a preterist.

Where is your patience?
Watchers?

Come back to your first love, which was grasping the understanding of prophecy.

We are almost there,
Wildfire

Hi Wildfire, Thanks for touching base with us, we miss you too!

If I may, I' have re-arranged your post to reflect, at least my version of your "timeline". Here goes:

Something I have noticed among the preterists, is a pattern that goes like this:

I once was a futurist, then I decided to actually study Revelation, and the rest of the Bible, I began to shout, the right people heard me, I became vindicated, I finally understood, I gave up on my unscriptural futurist belief, and became a preterist.

I came home to my first love, scripture. I now, finally, am grasping the true understanding of prophecy.

We are already there!
P70

[Mandy]

Originally posted by jenlu
Wildfire...

I was frustrated...not because it wasn't happening, but because it didn't make sense...it didn't add up...sure the failed predictions make you wonder, but that was the least of what brought me to where I am now...thanks for caring, but I'll never return to the wholy futurist viewpoint...and I'm on my way to a wholly preterist viewpoint...don't know for sure, if I'll ever get there, but I'm on my way...

What "failed prdictions" are you referring to?

[Wildfire]

jenlu, I found this link to be very helpful. I hope you take some time to read through it.
(2) is an excellent start.

http://www.ucg.org/search/search.cgi?query=revelation&IMAGE.x=60&IMAGE.y=36

Wildfire

[jenlu]

Mandy, I don't mean to sound crase(sp), but how long have you been into dispensationalism...go back about 10-20 years and you'll find failed prediction after failed prediction(Ever heard of Hal Lindsey)not to mention the past 2000 years...I would suggest studying up on how many times the call for the end has come and gone...the reason it doesn't work is because Revelations is not a book of predictions...it's a covenant lawsuit with Israel...but

like I said in my post, the failed predictions had little to do with why I am where I am...figuring out it was a covenant lawsuit was huge though...

[Mandy]

Why would you ever go by the predictions of men? Men are fallible, the word of God is not.

Covenant lawsuit?

[kern]

Of course, you can be a futurist without being a dispensationalist. As I understand it it would be compatible with the futurist viewpoint to believe that Christ's return will not be for millions or hundreds of millions of years (I'm not sure what the basis would be for this, but then I'm often not sure of the basis for disp hysteria either!)

-Chris

[jenlu]

Mandy, Do you believe He's coming soon? If so, how soon is soon...is it soon like you interpret the bible when it says "soon" or is it soon like it is normally meant...?

As for the sign's of the times...name a generation that has not had the sign's...

As for the covenant lawsuit question...yes, many times in the O.T. God used His prophets to bring a lawsuit against His people Israel...in which he had a covenant...By lawsuit since God and Israel had a covenant which is broken by Israel in the greatest way he takes away their "special" status and gives it to a nation (church) that will produce fruit...that's what Revelations/Apocalypse is describing very eloquently...though previously he always allowed them to stay in the fold...this time it was unrevocable that they rejected the Christ...Just as the parable Jesus told where the winepress of God's wrath was poured out on the people the master put in charge...The exact ones that killed His Son...

[Acts6:5]

Right on Jenlu. This judgment for breaking the covenant is described in Deuteronomy 32 as the Song of Moses. And in Revelation 15:3 the Song of Moses is sung.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[armothe]

Failed predictions...

Let's just wait 50 years until most of the futurists on this board have passed. Then we'll see that their claims of Christ coming in their lifetimes have failed.

Prediction of the end of the world isn't a new thing people.

-A

[Mandy]

Originally posted by jenlu
Mandy, Do you believe He's coming soon? If so, how soon is soon...is it soon like you interpret the bible when it says "soon" or is it soon like it is normally meant...?

As for the sign's of the times...name a generation that has not had the sign's...

As for the covenant lawsuit question...yes, many times in the O.T. God used His prophets to bring a lawsuit against His people Israel...in which he had a covenant...By lawsuit since God and Israel had a covenant which is broken by Israel in the greatest way he takes away their "special" status and gives it to a nation (church) that will produce fruit...that's what Revelations/Apocalypse is describing very eloquently...though previously he always allowed them to stay in the fold...this time it was unrevocable that they rejected the Christ...Just as the parable Jesus told where the winepress of God's wrath was poured out on the people the master put in charge...The exact ones that killed His Son...

Yes I do believe Jesus is coming soon. How soon? I have no idea. It could be any moment or in 50 years. Where in Scripture does it state that God has taken away Israel's special status and gave it to the church? Ezekiel 38 and 39, shows that God isn't through with Israel, so does Romans, Revelation. As far as signs go, a major sign that has been seen is the return of the Jews to Israel and that they are in fact a nation again.

[Acts6:5]

Prediction of the end of the world isn't a new thing people.

No doubt...

Cyprian (200-258), Bishop of Carthage - "The kingdom of God, beloved brethren, is beginning to be at hand" ; "That wars continue to prevail, that death and famine accumulate anxiety, that health is shuttered by raging diseases, that the human race is wasted by the desolation of pestilence, know that this was foretold; that evils should be multiplied in the last times, and that misfortunes should be varied; and that the day of judgment is drawing nigh" (Treatise 5, An Address to Demetrianus)

St. Martin of Tours (316-397) - "There is no doubt that the Antichrist has already been born. Firmly established already in his early years, he will, after reaching maturity, achieve supreme power." (Abanes p.119)

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Mandy


Yes I do believe Jesus is coming soon. How soon? I have no idea. It could be any moment or in 50 years.

Could it be in 100 years? 1000 years? 5000 years?
what makes you stop at 50 years? Clearly you believe "soon" can mean thousands of years right?

Originally posted by Mandy
Where in Scripture does it state that God has taken away Israel's special status and gave it to the church?


Great question! scripture says just that right here:

Mt 21:43
"Therefore I say to you,[Jews] the kingdom of God will be taken from you [Jews],and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

What Nation was Jesus going to Give the Kingdom to?
The Church of Course!


1Peter 2:9
But you [christians] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Originally posted by Mandy
As far as signs go, a major sign that has been seen is the return of the Jews to Israel and that they are in fact a nation again.

Please show from scripture how the establishemnt of modern day, political Israel, is a "sign" of anything.

[jenlu]

Mandy,
That (God giving "special" status to the church) is what the entirety of the Bible is about...try to think of it as a story...the whole Bible...God is telling you how after he lost us to sin...won us back with the redemptive act of Jesus Christ...By the way, by no means do I believe Jews are not allowed to be molded back in...just not under special status and definitely not under their laws ie. rituals/temple/sacrifices, but only under the acceptance of Jesus Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords...THE Messiah

[Acts6:5]

Where in Scripture does it state that God has taken away Israel's special status and gave it to the church?

Israel's "special status" depended on keeping the Covenant, which they did not do. They did not take care of the vineyard given to them(Luke 20:9). They continued to persecute and kill the messengers God sent to seek a harvest (v. 10-12). He then sent His Son, but the Israelites killed Him too (v.15). So in response, God destroyed the people of the Covenant and gave the vineyard (kingdom) to others - the Church, true Israel (v.16).

Mandy, the vineyard was taken from Israel and given to the Church. The parable clearly teaches this. As Paul said in Rom 9:6, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel". It's not circumcision of the flesh that counts one as a Jew and an heir of Abraham, but only of the circumcision of the heart.

"But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

In Christ,

Acts6:5

[armothe]

Originally posted by Mandy
Yes I do believe Jesus is coming soon. How soon? I have no idea. It could be any moment or in 50 years.


So, you are saying "soon" is anywhere between 0-50 year period? Christ estimated 40 years...you're close!

-A

[Wildfire]

Hang in there Mandy, you're on the right track. What happened in Israel 1967 was the mark of something, and here we are, twenty+ years later watching future events unfold. Currently war is breaking out like <wildfire> in the Jerusalem area, and soon we may bear witness to our first nuclear attack. Sad, incredibly, but what is worse than that is those who do not believe that the worst is yet to come -for a short time-

Watch and pray, that you mat be hid in the Lords day.
Pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all of these things.

Wildfire

[jenlu]

so now it's 1967...used to 1948...what's gonna happen when 2007 passes or 2037 or 2057...You just sound exactly like a Pope in the sixth century so I'm ribbing you a bit...

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Wildfire
....and soon we may bear witness to our first nuclear attack.


Uhhhh....I'd bet dollars to donuts that the folks from Hiroshima and Nagasaki would beg to differ.

[Tinker Grey]

I always find it interesting that some seem to partially define their Christianity in terms of their eschatology.

I believe in Jesus Christ. He died for me. He rose for me. He intercedes for me.

My response is to live as a child of God, regardless of whether he is coming or came.

God bless,
Tinker

[davo]

Originally posted by Tinker Grey
I always find it interesting that some seem to partially define their Christianity in terms of their eschatology.
I believe in Jesus Christ. He died for me. He rose for me. He intercedes for me.
My response is to live as a child of God, regardless of whether he is coming or came.
God bless,
Tinker

Good for you Tinker! :) So, how do you find it interesting?

davo

[Wildfire]

hey parasoui, wasn't that an atomic bomb? I was referring to the tension mounting between India & Pakistan.

Wildfire

[parousia70]

Forgive my ignorance wildfire,
could you explain the difference between an atomic bomb and a nuclear bomb?

Thanks

[Tinker Grey]

Well first, let me apologize for the hijack.

It seems from scripture that there is a relatively simple definition for a Christian. I am increasingly convinced that it is more or less limited to my previous post (he died, he lives, he intercedes, I respond accordingly.)

I grew up in a futurist church. I believe from your descriptions in another thread, davo, that I might be in the partial preterist camp, for similar reasons given by others. However, rather than delve into it, it became unimportant to me.

Both the CvE (creation/evol.) debates and PvF debates do very little for my understanding of how God wants me to live.

I am a Christian, and yet, my definition specifies none of the four camps mentioned in the preceding paragraph (i.e, C,E,P,F).

So it is interesting to me, that, for example, the board of administrators would actually take the time to convene and vote to exclude P's from the eschatology forum (it is a view of the "end times" after all.)

It is interesting to me that both camps of P and F expend so much energy doing what seems to amount to witnessing to lead others to the truth of either P or F. (Above, for example, wildfire says "Hang in there Mandy, you're on the right track." Nothing wrong with that. It just sounds like a response to an agnostic seeker in matters of salvation.)

Let me be clear about something. This particular thread was not a special case to me. It just happened to be the one I was reading when my knee-jerked. ;)

Anyway, I guess I would like to see the fora dedicated to living the Christian life have more activity than those dedicated to open questions.

Apologies again for the hijack.

God bless,

Tinker

(we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.)

[Back To The Future]

I will never Go Back To The Futurist way of thinking. So many people think just because you are a preterist, it is all about Eschatology. FOr me, it was the opposite. Reading the Bible with first century eyes, helped me to finally understand the Bible. Everything in the Bible. Not just THe Eschatology part of it.

Its just so amazing. Once your eyes are opened. Eveything comes together.

I just for the life of me, don't understand now, how the futurist doctrine even got the gas to get going!! Its so bizzare now that I see things in a new light. I can't believe I use to believe that stuff. ( I am in no way putting anyone down for believing this way) I am just saying it is really Exciting and wonderful once you see the truth. (for me anyway)

Oh I just love being a Preterist :clap:
I love the Lord, I love reading the Bible now, I just feel like I have really been reborn!!

Blessings and thanks for all the wonderful posts.
Nancy :hug:

[jenlu]

Very insightful tinker grey...

There is no doubt people can get to caught up in eschatology that it veers them from living the life God called them to lead...but, and I think this is important, understanding God's word helps you to live the life God called you to lead...prophecy/eschatology are part of God's word, and understanding what He did and is doing for you through those scripture's are vital IMHO...(in my humble opinion)...when people on here are teaching/preaching their view of it, I believe, they believe they are doing it in terms of helping the other person's relationship with the Father...how productive it is is another story, but I've heard people say they had renewed vigor for God due to their change in eschatology mindset...I was one for sure...

[Ozarkpreterist]

Originally posted by Back To The Future
I will never Go Back To The Futurist way of thinking. So many people think just because you are a preterist, it is all about Eschatology. FOr me, it was the opposite. Reading the Bible with first century eyes, helped me to finally understand the Bible. Everything in the Bible. Not just THe Eschatology part of it.

Its just so amazing. Once your eyes are opened. Eveything comes together.

I just for the life of me, don't understand now, how the futurist doctrine even got the gas to get going!! Its so bizzare now that I see things in a new light. I can't believe I use to believe that stuff. ( I am in no way putting anyone down for believing this way) I am just saying it is really Exciting and wonderful once you see the truth. (for me anyway)

Oh I just love being a Preterist :clap:
I love the Lord, I love reading the Bible now, I just feel like I have really been reborn!!

Blessings and thanks for all the wonderful posts.
Nancy :hug:

I agree. Preterism took my walk with the Lord to a whole new level. Also, I have heard that as much as 1/4 to 1/3 or more of the Bible concerns itself with eschatology, so it must be a matter of great importance.

[Mike Beidler]

Originally posted by parousia70



Uhhhh....I'd bet dollars to donuts that the folks from Hiroshima and Nagasaki would beg to differ.

Not to be nitpicky, but those cities suffered an ATOMIC attack, not a nuclear one. He-he. :D

[davo]

Hey Tinker, I like getting hijacked -gotta break the mould a bit -and I hear what you're saying and can concur with of what you said -it actually does come down to how we "live-out" our walk with God.

As for eschatology -for me it's a really interesting "fringe" [well maybe not so fringe] issue. ;)

anyway, blessings mate!

davo

[davo]

Fission Bomb: -an atomic weapon which depends on nuclear fission. [how old are you guys? ;)]

davo

[Tinker Grey]

jenlu and davo,

Blessings to you both. I don't think we are so far apart.

God bless you all.

Tinker

[parousia70]

Tinker,
For me, Eschatology hit to the very core of the integrity of scripture. It was in fact Preterism that brought me back to Christ, after losing my faith alltogether, in no small part due ot the fact that since I thought Futurism was the only interpratation, I was forced (at the time) to conclude that the Bible was false, because I couldn't abide by the twisting and stretching of the futurist "postponement" theories of the clear time indicators surrounding the 2nd coming. I began to believe Jesus was a false prophet.

When I discovered there was an interpratation that took the time indicators at face value, that affirmed Jesus did exactly what He said He would do, exactly WHEN he said He would do it, I felt like Stephen in Acts 7, "the Heavens opened and I saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father" I knew right away that The Bible was indeed true, and Jesus was indeed the only son of God.

From then on Eschatology and Soteriology became inextricably intertwined for me. I can not seperate the two as you seem to be able to do. Because, If we can't trust Jesus and the apostles on the timing, how can we trust them on the doctorines of Grace, or anything else for that matter? We can't. That is why we preterists place so much importance on eschatology. We have this funny notion that the integrity of the entirety scripture hinges on it.

Peace

[parousia70]

Originally posted by davo
Fission Bomb: -an atomic weapon which depends on nuclear fission.

Absolutely correct.

Make no mistake, WW11 was the worlds first nuclear war.

[Tinker Grey]

parousia70,

I appreciate your testimony. You remind me, in some ways, of an ex-smoker. No one is more adamantly against smokers than one who has recently given up smoking.

Also, your comments remind me of those who feel they cannot trust God if evolution is true.

(None of the above is intended as a criticism.)

I think we must recognize that there are those who take an opposite view and honestly feel that they can do so (hermeneutical gymnastics notwithstanding.)

For me the separation, in both Cve and PvF, from soteriology is in not attempting to guess what exactly God has/had in mind.

Genesis for me describes that God created the universe and took/takes particular interest in Man and has established a working relationship with Man. The details of how are unimportant (to me.)

Revelation (along with various and assundry related scriptures) are primarily for encouragement. I don't think God intends to tell exactly what will happen. It certainly seems clear to me that Revelation was to encourage the churches to whom John was writing. Bottom line: bad things will happen -- God wins in the end, hands down.

Regardless if we can pinpoint the meanings of prophecy, we can pinpoint that God knows whats happening and has it all under control. And of course, lotsa folks like to point out that most of what we call prophecy (along with the definition of the word) is exhortation.

Prophecy is a teaching tool WRT our relationship to God. What exactly happens is not particularly important (to me.)

Part of the reason I am convinced that discussing the End Times is so much endless geneologies is that in the story of Jesus from the Gospels we have NO indication that anyone predicted that Jesus was what God had in mind. We do have Paul and Matthew, in retrospect, telling us how Jesus fulfilled scripture. Remember the road to Emmaeus, even after the resurrection, Jesus had to explain how it was laid out in prophecy.

For both Genesis and Revelation, the bottom line for me is putting a different spin on God's intention on telling us anything he has told us. In the end when all is revealed, we may see that from God's eyes, both the evidence of our senses and the literal interpretation of various scriptures are completely true. I am a little skeptical of that last statement. I suspect that most of us if not all will have to ask forgiveness for putting God in a box that was way too small. But I do know, through faith, that I will be reconciled to whatever that truth is.

God bless,
Tinker