problems with scripture interpretation

[kayanne]

Over in OBOB is an interesting thread entitled "Absurdity," about various threads in GT where Scripture verses are hurled back and forth, each side finding its own ammunition.

I find myself in agreement to a large degree with what the Catholics are saying on this issue of individual scripture interpretation. I am going to copy/paste a portion of a post I made in that thread, for I would like the Baptist perspective on it too.

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I am currently in a "Scripture only" church, and for years I thought it was wonderful to see the respect and attention given to God's Holy Word (which it deserves). I do honestly believe that the scripture-only people I know have a very high view of God and His Word, and they want to honor Him by studying and keeping His commandments. I think of a verse (Psalms somewhere) where God says that He has placed His Word higher than His name. That is an awesome thought.

But I am increasingly frustrated by the lack of agreement regarding what the Bible is truly saying on different issues, and I'll tell ya, I feel like my faith is having the rug pulled out from under it. I understand the Catholic opinion that people shouldn't be their "own Holy Spirit" (that's one way I've heard individual interpretation described). Man oh man, the Bible IS definitely confusing--seems to say one thing in this place and another thing somewhere else.

I'm ashamed to say I have practically given up reading or studying the Bible. I feel like my mind will never sort it all out, and if I'm going to misunderstand it or become more confused, then why bother? Yet I don't believe this is how God wants me to feel.
....(portions edited)...
Some days I'm half tempted to bail out of my scripture only church and check out Catholocism, but I'm a little hung up on 2 Timothy 2:15. I mean, that verse is a mainstay in scripture only churches. I don't know if I could ever delegate the whole job of studying and interpreting to someone else, even though I'm not doing a very good job of it myself!

Please pray for me. It has been a difficult and confusing time for me spiritually. kayanne>>>>>>

Be gentle with me people. I'm just sincerely trying to figure things out.

[SumTinWong]

I am where you are. I find it funny that we can all feel that we are getting inspiration from the Spirit and yet see two different meanings in scriptures. Of you all are wrong and I am right which is where the problems all stem from ;)

Anyway, just remember this, that the Catholic church, the Baptist church all have the same opinions on a great many readings. What seperate us, are the scriptures we disagree on. I just remember that nobody is perfect and no church has it all down pat. The Baptist and Catholic church each have opinions on scripture, and both feel that they are led by the Spirit. God said we can judge by our fruits.

So check the fruits of both and there you have it. But don't forget to check the other side of the tree that doesn't get as much light, because there you will find some rotten stuff I am sure.

Not sure if i helped...

[kayanne]

I am where you are. I find it funny that we can all feel that we are getting inspiration from the Spirit and yet see two different meanings in scriptures. Of you all are wrong and I am right which is where the problems all stem from ;)
Not saying I'm happy that you're confused too, but I am glad to know you understand and share some of my feelings!!

The Baptist and Catholic church each have opinions on scripture, and both feel that they are led by the Spirit. God said we can judge by our fruits.
But it seems worse in Baptist churches, where people are encouraged to self-interpret (there's some term for that--is that "priesthood of the believer"?)
At least in the cath church, the claim is that the apostles and early church fathers passed down the "correct interpretation" and sacred traditions. I'm not saying that the catholic church has in fact done this perfectly, but it makes more sense to me that accurate scripture interpretation could be passed down through generations, rather than ME reading the scriptures and trying to come up with correct interpretation.


So check the fruits of both and there you have it. But don't forget to check the other side of the tree that doesn't get as much light, because there you will find some rotten stuff I am sure.
Not sure what you're saying..."check the fruits of both and there you have it." Have what? I see sincere wonderful Christian people in many denominations and catholicism; I'm sure there are rotten people in all as well. Were you specifically criticizing the catholic church, or did I misunderstand? (see! I can't even interpret a post on a message board accurately!!!)

Not sure if i helped...
Your very first sentence was in fact very comforting to me---sometimes I feel all alone in my struggle, and I don't feel like I can open up about this with anyone at my church. Thanks for being willing to share! kayanne

[SumTinWong]

Not saying I'm happy that you're confused too, but I am glad to know you understand and share some of my feelings!!
Glad I could be of assistance ;)

But it seems worse in Baptist churches, where people are encouraged to self-interpret (there's some term for that--is that "priesthood of the believer"?)
It is possible, but there are a great many Catholics who have taken Catholic dogmas and ran the gambit with them as well. I believe that we are all the priesthood of believers for the sole fact that the Holy Spirit is indwelt in our temples, which are our bodies. I believe that they veil that seperated us, from God was torn and we can cry Father, Abba, without needing to go through a priest as in the OT. We can make our own case before God with the Lord Jesus as our Lawyer for the lack of a better term ;)

At least in the cath church, the claim is that the apostles and early church fathers passed down the "correct interpretation" and sacred traditions.
But it is just that, a claim. Any claim should stand up to scrutiny, and a great many of theirs do stand up, and we agree as Baptists agreeon many issues with them, but in some cases we do not, and that is the problem. The ECF were just as human as you and I and had their own biases and faults as we do. What you have through the years are people agreeing with these ideas and then it becomes a common belief.

I'm not saying that the catholic church has in fact done this perfectly, but it makes more sense to me that accurate scripture interpretation could be passed down through generations, rather than ME reading the scriptures and trying to come up with correct interpretation.
What if you read the Bible with the Holy Spirit as your guide and used these other writings to see if you are on the right track? I like to do that and nine times out of ten I will have it knocked out of the park like they did. It is that one out of ten that bothers me and keeps me up at nights :)

Not sure what you're saying..."check the fruits of both and there you have it." Have what?
Sorry I had a moment of clarity but I didn't pass it on. Each of our trees has good fruit (teachings/beliefs), and this I know you agree with. But on each of our trees you will find bad fruit or rotten fruit as well. So I would check the fruits, or teachings of these two institutions and see who has the better fruit, and the least amount of rotten fruit.

I see sincere wonderful Christian people in many denominations and catholicism; I'm sure there are rotten people in all as well.
Agreed, no doubt about it.

Were you specifically criticizing the catholic church, or did I misunderstand? (see! I can't even interpret a post on a message board accurately!!!)
hahaha, you were right, and you were wrong. I was not criticizing them so much as saying they are in the same boat we are in with some faulty people, rowing at times. The baptist church has it's problems, and so does the Catholic church. My advice is look at the good and the bad between them and follow your heart after that.

Your very first sentence was in fact very comforting to me---sometimes I feel all alone in my struggle, and I don't feel like I can open up about this with anyone at my church. Thanks for being willing to share! kayanne
you are not alone, I struggle with these issues all the time. Some of the Catholic statements about Baptist theology make me question my own faith and my own walk with God as a Baptist. I would be lying if i said otherwise. But the deeper I look into it, the more answers i get, and that is part of the journey.

[Terri]

I will pray for you Kayanne.

One thing that you may be missing is just how important it is to seek God through His written Word. Studying His Word and seeking for HIM to make it clear to you what He is saying is one of my greatest joys in life. It is through this seeking after Him through His Word that I have come to know Him so well. So although I certainly understand your frustrations at not instantly knowing for sure what God is saying in a particular verse you would certainly be throwing away your best chance of getting to know your Father up close and personal if you stop seeking Him through His written Word. And, believe me God does reward those that seek Him.

HEB 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Now, I know the catholics throw out their many false accusations against us having individual interpretation. They will say how wrong this is and then turn around and say that there are only about 14 (I forget the exact number) of Bible verses that have officially been interpreted by their leadership. So, who is interpreting the rest of the verses for them? I'm sorry, but they just can't have it both ways--although they certainly try.

Now, if you believe the gospel: that Jesus' death on the cross paid for all of your sins, that He died, was buried, and that He rose again you have the Holy Spirit. So it is impossible for you to be your "own Holy Spirit." There is only one Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit will lead you into all understanding if you allow Him to just as the Bible says. But,you have to BELIEVE that He will and not give up.

The Gospel:
1CO 15:1 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1CO 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

I do not agree with you that the Bible says one thing one place and then contradicts itself in another. I think that perhaps it may take you a while to understand what it is saying or that you are listening to too many people that are giving their opinion of what it says.

Our salvation is a personal thing between us and God. You are responsible for what you believe about God and how much you seek Him. If others are interfering in that relationship then I would suggest you give up listening to those people rather than giving up seeking God through His written Word. Do you really want your salvation and walk with the Lord to be dependent on someone else's interpretation of God's Word when God's Spirit lives inside of you and you can just ask Him. Now, He doesn't always answer us instantly or if He does we're not sharp enough to always understand it instantly. But, it is by the continued seeking after Him and His answers that we truely come to know Him.

Kayanne we all have times when we feel we are not doing a very good job in understanding Gods' Word or seeking Him as much as we would like to--BUT with perseverance and patience these times get fewer and fewer as we get closer and closer to God through seeking Him through His Word.

It is natural to get afraid and think of running to someone that claims they have all of the answers. But, the truth is that what you need to do with your fear is to run to God who really does have all of the answers. BELIEVING what God says and TRUSTING in Him to lead you into all understanding is what gets rid of our fears. And, it is fear that makes you think that others can understand the Bible better than you can. Remember, God does not give us a spirit of fear. You can always tell a spirit of fear because it makes us loose confidence in God's love for us. When you are confident in God's love you don't feel anxious, confused nor worried. You know that no matter how much you understand or don't understand you are just fine right where you are at the moment. We have to TRUST in the Lord--not our own understanding.

PR 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

PR 3:6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

I would also be careful of any spirit that tries to get me to follow a particular group. The Holy Spirit always directs us into following God and His truth not into following groups.

PHP 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I urge you to be bold in your confidence in the Lord Kayanne. Don't let this harrasing spirit that is making you confused shake your confidence. We bring great glory to our Lord when we have confidence in His love and His care. Can you imagine how much it would hurt you if someone you loved dearly didn't trust you to take care of them. This is the way God feels when we don't have confidence in Him. Now, don't think I am picking on you because I have been just where you are now. But, if you keep seeking the Lord and His face you will move past it. :hug:

[ZiSunka]

I understand the Catholic opinion that people shouldn't be their "own Holy Spirit" (that's one way I've heard individual interpretation described).



I agree that no one should be their own Holy Spirit. Thankfully, that's not what we do. The Bible is taught to us by men and women who were taught by men and women who were taught by men and women...who studied dilligently the old texts and meanings and commentaries and interpretations to make sure they are understanding it correctly.

Now of course there are TV preachers who have dispensed with all that and got themselves a TV show and are spouting whatever they think some passage means without regard to study and learning and truth, just so they can sell advertising or get donations, but those people are charlatans, not true ministers of the word of God.

That's part of the reason that CF is here, so we can study together and learn from each other and there are a lot of ministers here and a lot of seminary or theology students here and a lot of people who have studied the Bible for years to help us learn the Truth and not go astray in interpretation or doctrine.

No one, not even a protestant, has the right to be their own Holy Spirit and if we believe and teach error, we will be held accountable for that error, especially if the truth was available to us through Bible study and institutions like CF. We are all learning from people who learned from people and so on, just like the Catholics, only with an interpretation towards justification by faith alone, and not justification by sacrements and sacrementals and rituals. To us, it's faith plus nothing, to them it's faith plus performance. By and large, catholic and protestant doctrine agrees more than it disagrees, it's tradition where we deviate so greatly. They see tradition as being equal to doctrine and we don't. If anything, it is the acceptance of tradition as equal with the Bible that makes the most room for human error. Doctrine as presented in the Bible cannot be in error, but when it is added to by human tradition, it is prone to all sorts of human problems leaking in. I would trust the Bible-alone thinking more than I would trust in Bible-plus-human-interpretation-and-tradition thinking. :)

[ZiSunka]

I'm ashamed to say I have practically given up reading or studying the Bible. I feel like my mind will never sort it all out, and if I'm going to misunderstand it or become more confused, then why bother? Yet I don't believe this is how God wants me to feel.


Stop trying to study it all by yourself and get into Bible studies at your church and go to Bible school where qualified teachers can help you understand it and straighten it out in your mind. :)

[Stinker]

Before anyone considers becoming a Catholic they must first see the movie Luther that just came out a few months ago.

Many, many, people have been conditioned to rely on authority outside of themselves for just about everything. I have learned not to assume that my authorities (commentaries, one-sided church debates, etc.) are 100% correct. For I have found by debating at this site that the evidence of some of my beliefs were wrong. I am just so glad to keep plodding forward and getting closer and closer to 100% truth, even though I may never attain it here on earth!

[kayanne]

Stop trying to study it all by yourself and get into Bible studies at your church and go to Bible school where qualified teachers can help you understand it and straighten it out in your mind. :)

Oh I do, Lambslove. I just got home from Bible study a few minutes ago. :wave:

[A. believer]

Not saying I'm happy that you're confused too, but I am glad to know you understand and share some of my feelings!!


But it seems worse in Baptist churches, where people are encouraged to self-interpret (there's some term for that--is that "priesthood of the believer"?)
At least in the cath church, the claim is that the apostles and early church fathers passed down the "correct interpretation" and sacred traditions. I'm not saying that the catholic church has in fact done this perfectly, but it makes more sense to me that accurate scripture interpretation could be passed down through generations, rather than ME reading the scriptures and trying to come up with correct interpretation.



Not sure what you're saying..."check the fruits of both and there you have it." Have what? I see sincere wonderful Christian people in many denominations and catholicism; I'm sure there are rotten people in all as well. Were you specifically criticizing the catholic church, or did I misunderstand? (see! I can't even interpret a post on a message board accurately!!!)


Your very first sentence was in fact very comforting to me---sometimes I feel all alone in my struggle, and I don't feel like I can open up about this with anyone at my church. Thanks for being willing to share! kayanne

Hi Kayanne,

I understand your frustration, and I understand your temptation to want to throw up your hands and just find the "true interpreter of Scripture" to solve your dilemma for you. But the issues you're wrestling with, issues of authority and interpretation, etc., aren't solved by finding an "infallible interpreter." I posted a link to a blog entry on private judgment today on a thread over in general theology, and I'll post a link for you to my post. That way, you'll get the link and you can read over the thread as well. Biblical interpretation (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=15101553#post15101553). Think of the blog post on private judgment as a letter to you.

One thing you must keep in mind, though, is this. You are not saved based upon your level of correct Bible knowledge. You're saved by the grace of God through faith. Correct doctrine does give us a better understanding of the kind of God we serve, but it doesn't save us, and wrestling with doctrine, although it can be stressful, doesn't have to be, as long as we remember that. Much of our understanding of right doctrine comes not just from Bible study alone, but from living out our faith and seeing God work in our lives and in the world.

If you want to talk about any of these things, feel free to PM me. God bless!

Ree

[kayanne]

I will pray for you Kayanne.

One thing that you may be missing is just how important it is to seek God through His written Word. Studying His Word and seeking for HIM to make it clear to you what He is saying is one of my greatest joys in life.

This is one of the things I am feeling particularly confused about. Many people say "God will make it clear," but if God makes things clear, then why all the bickering and "scripture ping-pong" that goes on in so many threads at CF and among Christians everywhere? People argue scripture til they're blue in the face, each convinced that he has the "correct interpretation." Which side was God "clear" to? I'm not trying to be sarcastic---I'm just really hung up on this.

So although I certainly understand your frustrations at not instantly knowing for sure what God is saying in a particular verse you would certainly be throwing away your best chance of getting to know your Father up close and personal if you stop seeking Him through His written Word.

Just to let you know, I'm not really frustrated because I am not "instantly" knowing what God is saying, but rather, because I was saved 25 years ago and, while I used to think I'd understand the Bible "when I got older" and "when I had been a Christian longer", it just hasn't happened. The older I get, the less clear things become. In fact, it was a particular teaching at my church, that I accepted as truth for many years, that I now know is very wrong and actually caused significant problems in my life (didn't realize it at the time). Anyway, as I realized how wrong my church was on this one issue, then the floodgates opened for realizing my church (and I) could be wrong on many issues. I'm sorry, I know I'm probably not making much sense here--let's just say I had a major, life-altering event a while back, that has caused me to question the "sufficiency of scripture" teaching that is foundational in my church.

They will say how wrong this is and then turn around and say that there are only about 14 (I forget the exact number) of Bible verses that have officially been interpreted by their leadership. So, who is interpreting the rest of the verses for them?
Really?!? Only 14? Can you tell me where I could learn more about this, like which 14 verses it is, and what do they do about the rest of the Bible. I assumed they had they entire Bible spelled out (kinda like the Bible commentaries protestants use, that goes through the Bible verse by verse).


I do not agree with you that the Bible says one thing one place and then contradicts itself in another.

Well, there is always someone willing to give his/her interpretation of what a verse means so that a seeming contradiction is explained away. One biggie is "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" (James 2:24) compared to "for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from work of the Law" (Rom 3:28).

I was somewhat reluctant to even post specific verses, because I do not want to veer off track onto these or any other specific verses. That is the exact kind of "scripture ping-pong" and bickering that is eroding my faith in the first place.

What I want to discuss is how entire churches can land on one side, and other churches land on the opposite side, when dealing with any "seemingly" contradictory verses. (since you said they are not contradictory, I'll say "seemingly" so, even through some seem blatantly contradictory to me). Like the faith/works ones above, or verses people battle with regarding OSAS, baptism, tongues, etc etc---people can throw scriptures at each other all day long to support "their side." Which side was God clear to? I guess I don't understand how you can say the Bible doesn't contradict itself (though I envy your peace about that) Without added interpretation, there are definitely verses that say the opposite thing. And once the necessity for explanatory interpretation exists, contradictory interpretations exist.

Terri, everything I've written so far in this particular post may make it sound like I'm being defensive toward you, or that I didn't appreciate your post. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was very touched by much of what you said; I know I will read it again and pray through things you have said to me. There was a beauty and a wisdom that exuded from what you said. I am truly grateful.
The parts of your post that I am questioning are just that--questions. I hope you will have time to respond again.
Blessings, kayanne

[day2day]

sometimes, I wonder what does Christ have to say about all this debating:confused: Why cant we all get along. maybe just maybe the world would be a better place:idea:

[Fat]

I don't understand why one would trust the interpretation of a man over that given to you by the Holy Spirit. How many references are there in the Bible about faults teachers? Faults prophets?

How does one choose a church? Do you ask someone else to choose it for you?

I'm am not saying that one should not ask opinions of others in church leadership but you will find that church leaders will have conflicting interpretations, what then? The law is written on your heart.

Rom 2:14 So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law.

[A. believer]

Really?!? Only 14? Can you tell me where I could learn more about this, like which 14 verses it is, and what do they do about the rest of the Bible. I assumed they had they entire Bible spelled out (kinda like the Bible commentaries protestants use, that goes through the Bible verse



Kayanne, there isn't even agreement among Catholics on how many verses of Scripture are infallibly interpreted or which ones. Although the RCC says that it, alone, has the authority to interpret Scripture, they haven't done so. I know that Catholics like to talk about how their catechism is backed up by Scripture, but the way they use Scripture to "back up" many of these teachings is mere prooftexting. But then, what else would one expect from a church that says this about its theologians.





It is also true that theologians must always have recourse to the sources of divine revelation; for it is their duty to indicate how what is taught by the living magisterium is found, either explicitly or implicitly, in Sacred Scripture and in divine “tradition.” See “Humani generis,” in Henry Denzinger, Enchiridion Symbolorum, The Sources of Catholic Dogma, trans. Roy J. Deferrari, Thirtieth Ed. (Powers Lake: Marian House, published in 1954 by Herder & Co., Freiburg), p. 640. On the next page (p. 641), Pius XII interprets this to be the intent of Pius IX as well, when he states, “Our predecessor of immortal memory, Pius IX” taught “that the most noble function of theology is to show how a doctrine defined by the Church is contained in the sources . . .”
and thisJohann Adam Möhler: Catholic theologians teach with general concurrence, and quite in the spirit of the Church, that even a Scriptural proof in favour of a decree held to be infallible, is not itself infallible, but only the dogma as defined. Johann Adam Möhler, Symbolism: Exposition of the Doctorinal Differences between Catholics and Protestants as evidenced by their Symbolical Writings, trans. James Burton Robertson (New York: The Crossroad Publishing Company, 1997), p. 296.

and this from one of their most respected theologians, Ludwig Ott,

while commenting on Pius IX’s papal bull Ineffabilis that defined the dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary, wrote: “The Bull does not give any authentic explanation of the passage . It must be observed that the infallibility of the Papal doctrinal decision extends only to the dogma as such and not to the reasons given as leading up to the dogma.” Ludwig Ott, [i]Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, ed. James Canon Bastible (Rockford: Tan Books and Publishers, Inc., reprinted 1974), p. 200.

In other words, the job of the theologian is to find Scripture to back up Roman Catholic teaching.

(If you compare the Westminster Catechism of the Reformed Churches with the Catholic Catechism and the Scripture support each uses, I think you'll see a marked difference between how each "supports their teaching from Scripture." And I'm not saying this to try to say that the you should just turn to the Westminster Catechism for an "infallible interpretation of Scripture." You'll see the same thing, I believe in the catechisms of the Lutheran and the Anglican Churches. Of course there are disagreements between the various traditions over various issues, but the disagreements are generally at the presuppositional level, just as the disagreements with Roman Catholics are. The disagreements have far less significance among Protestants, though, than the ones with RCs.)

Of course, they're quick to interpret Matthew 16:18 to mean that the Pope has absolute authority over the church, but that runs contrary to their claim that their teachings are backed up historically because no one taught that until many centuries into the church era when the bishop of Rome was already beginning to claim much more authority than the rest of the church was granting him.

Don't think you have to interpret Scripture alone. Read various theologians throughout church history and consider what they say. Learn church history. Learn about popular heresies that have cropped up time and time again throughout church history and how they are defeated by the interpretation of Scripture with Scripture. Don't get hung up on debates between Christian layman. I don't claim to have all the answers. I'm a relatively recently convinced Calvinist, but I rarely debate Scripture because I consider myself a learner and not a teacher when it comes to theological fine points, so that even though I myself am persuaded, I don't feel that I should be trying to persuade others into the Calvinist camp. There are certain indisputables as far as I'm concerned such as the doctrine of forensic justification which the RCC and the EOC deny. You may or may not be familiar with the terminology, but you're probably familiar with the concept. I'm equally convicted that, despite their explanations, etc., the RCC has elevated Mary to a level that overshadows Christ and the sufficiency of His work on the cross, and my conviction about that has only increased throughout the years I've seen RCs defend their Marian doctrines and practices. In fact, it's something I really didn't know much about when I first began dialogues with Catholics, but I've seen it manifested over and over again, even with people who'd gone out of their way to downplay it.

Anyway, I will pray for you in your struggle. God bless!

Ree

[kayanne]

I'm off to bed for tonight. Keep the helpful posts coming though, and I'll jump back in tomorrow.

I appreciate your thoughts! kayanne

[Smidlee]

One of the reason why there is so many interpretation of scripture is... well let's face it .. it's laziness. We would rather have someone tell us what to believe instead of having to pray and study ourselves. Praying and studing can be hard work which I have to admit I get slack sometimes. Acts 17:11 I've quoted a few times here before ".. in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those thing were so. First; they only had the Old testament which I believe is very point to get a correct interpretation of many verses in the New testament. Second even with Paul preaching they studied themselves to see if what Paul preached was correct. Paul had to write many letter to correct the churches from following false doctrine in his day so don't be surprise there is so many interpretation today. It just takes time to deal with many deep truths in scriptures which Paul refered to the meat of the word. I notice I can tell when someone is taking scriptures out of context a lot more than 10 years ago especially in some books like Ecclesiastes.
A alarm goes off now when someone quotes out of Ecclesiates even if they don't let me know it from that book. It helps a lot to know what the main subject of a book and know whom the book was written to and around the time, etc. Example for Ecclesiates a key verse is 1:3 "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" (obviously this book isn't dealing with a man sitting in the heavenly places in Christ like Ephesians) which basicly the rest of the book addresses Solomon's experiment in trying to answer this question. Without knowing this verse and keeping it in mind, you will find many verses in Ecclesiates will totally contradicts other scriptures in the bible. ( the natural man works againest the spiritual man)

So first thing it get a basic idea about each book in the bible which should be a good start in your understanding of truth. Also ask God for wisdom.

[Smidlee]

[/b]

Well, there is always someone willing to give his/her interpretation of what a verse means so that a seeming contradiction is explained away. One biggie is "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone" (James 2:24) compared to "for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from work of the Law" (Rom 3:28).


Here another great example of knowing about each books goes a long way in interpretation.

Who are the ones James writing to ? easy verse 1 ".. to the twleve tribes which are scattered aboard ..." Wait James! what about the gentile churches ? why doesn't James mention the gentiles when Act 21:18-24 it clearly states that Paul reported to James about what happen with gentiles? It seems very likely that the book of James was written before Acts 21 before Paul preaching to the gentiles. For in the beginning the church was totally Jewish . Now guess what is James main topic is to a very religious people the Jews? Religion. Notice James 1:27 " Pure religion and undefiled befopre God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless (WORKS) and widows (WORKS) in their affliction and to keep himself unspotted from the world (again Works). James isn't dealing with salvation , he is dealing with those who were bought up in Judaism who are very religious{ those with the Law.}

Even the name tell me something about "Romans" . It takes me it written to gentiles to the church in Rome. This is why there's that awful list in Romans chapter one since this was happening in Rome. Now Paul isn't dealing with a people raised in Judaism { those without the Law} so his subject isn't religion but salvation (if there one thing you need is to save out of Rome). In fact in Acts 21:18-26 it stated Paul along with others decided not to bring the Jewish religious practices on the gentiles like circumcision while yet many Jews continue to practice them.

Once you learn the correct interpretion then you can make application in your own life.

[MbiaJc]

Over in OBOB is an interesting thread entitled "Absurdity," about various threads in GT where Scripture verses are hurled back and forth, each side finding its own ammunition.

I find myself in agreement to a large degree with what the Catholics are saying on this issue of individual scripture interpretation. I am going to copy/paste a portion of a post I made in that thread, for I would like the Baptist perspective on it too.

<<<<<
I am currently in a "Scripture only" church, and for years I thought it was wonderful to see the respect and attention given to God's Holy Word (which it deserves). I do honestly believe that the scripture-only people I know have a very high view of God and His Word, and they want to honor Him by studying and keeping His commandments. I think of a verse (Psalms somewhere) where God says that He has placed His Word higher than His name. That is an awesome thought.

But I am increasingly frustrated by the lack of agreement regarding what the Bible is truly saying on different issues, and I'll tell ya, I feel like my faith is having the rug pulled out from under it. I understand the Catholic opinion that people shouldn't be their "own Holy Spirit" (that's one way I've heard individual interpretation described). Man oh man, the Bible IS definitely confusing--seems to say one thing in this place and another thing somewhere else.

I'm ashamed to say I have practically given up reading or studying the Bible. I feel like my mind will never sort it all out, and if I'm going to misunderstand it or become more confused, then why bother? Yet I don't believe this is how God wants me to feel.
....(portions edited)...
Some days I'm half tempted to bail out of my scripture only church and check out Catholocism, but I'm a little hung up on 2 Timothy 2:15. I mean, that verse is a mainstay in scripture only churches. I don't know if I could ever delegate the whole job of studying and interpreting to someone else, even though I'm not doing a very good job of it myself!

Please pray for me. It has been a difficult and confusing time for me spiritually. kayanne>>>>>>

Be gentle with me people. I'm just sincerely trying to figure things out.




:wave:
Basically I think the Catholic are teaching sound doctrine. More and more I am finding great respect for the Catholic Church. Like they do not change their doctrine to satisfy every passing fad.

I know there are some things one can find fault with, but hey the same thing applies to all denominations.

I am thinking of checking out the Catholic Church also.

If you won't to know what God's word that the Bible teaches more than you won't any thing this world has to offer then keep on studying comparing scripture with scripture, letting the Holy Spirit interpit it for you. You also need to loose all your preconceived idears. I have learned the ones that have learned this way do not disagree on what important.
Isa 28:10 For precept mustbe upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: :clap:

[Sword-In-Hand]

On the subject of why there is all this "ping-pong" of scriptures, we have to remember that there is an enemy who wants us confused and an enemy who wants us out of God's word. I mean what better way to turn away the lost than to have the people who are supposed to have this Christian stuff down, argue and fight all the time? If we are confused, then how do we reach the lost? Once the enemy gets us into this point of confusion, really what good are we to the Kingdom?

Bible studies are great, and they have helped me alot, not only for the building up of one another, but the fellowship involved, but you are still a child of God, an heir to His throne (Gal: 4:7) and thus God is able and willing to speak to you alone. Did God call or work through Luke, Mark, Timothy, Bartholomew, or any other apostle to compose the letter to the Romans? No, He spoke to Paul to write this letter. Same as in any other part of the Bible. God spoke to a specific person and He can speak to us specifically about His truths.

I just want to encourage you to stay in the Word, and God does hold His Word above His very head, and it is tried in the fire seven times. Stay in it through personal studies and through group studies. Without the Word we are lost completely.

Denominations mean little to me. I think they are important, but I wish they did not exist. I'd rather be called a child of God, a follower of Jesus, a born again believer in Christ than a Baptist. If God calls you to the Catholic faith, do what He says, if He wants you to be a Baptist, do that too. It's all about following God and not man's design.

What helps me is to remember Jesus' words of "I am the way, the truth and the life." We don't know the truth about anything until we know what Jesus is saying about it.

I hope this helps and I'll be in prayer for you.

[Gold Dragon]

But it seems worse in Baptist churches, where people are encouraged to self-interpret (there's some term for that--is that "priesthood of the believer"?)
At least in the cath church, the claim is that the apostles and early church fathers passed down the "correct interpretation" and sacred traditions. I'm not saying that the catholic church has in fact done this perfectly, but it makes more sense to me that accurate scripture interpretation could be passed down through generations, rather than ME reading the scriptures and trying to come up with correct interpretation.

Completely relying on tradition has its pitfalls. Completely ignoring tradition also has its problems. A healthier balance of these two sides needs to be made.

On the one hand, the historical interpretations of the bible by Holy Spirit indwelled Christians should be very valuable to us and held in high respect.

On the other hand, we need to recognize that even the accumulated consensus of the holiest Holy Spirit indwelled Christians in history doesn't have it all figured out and eliminate the need for the Holy Spirit to continually transform us through the scriptures in ways that apply to our current context today.

[kayanne]

You know, I think I'm seeing what a big part of my problem is. I think I could be content to "not have it all figured out." I don't really care who is right on OSAS, election, etc etc. I just want to live each day for Christ in a way that would bring him honor.

But I am in a church that is very "doctrine oriented." Having "right doctrine" is considered very important. Other churches that have differing opinions of various doctrinal issues are often criticized from the pulpit and from Bible study leaders. Our pastor believes it is his duty to point out "errors" (that is, interpretations different than his) of other denominations----but like I keep asking here, who is say which interpretation is correct?! This kind of criticism happens in nearly every sermon and every Bible study. (btw, it would be difficult to switch churches for various reasons, a main one being my husband's involvement there and his desire to stay there).

I am realizing that our church spends more time teaching about doctrinal nit-pickies rather than helping us deepen our relationship with God Himself. I was really wrapped up in the Bible for so many years, and trying to understand every little jot and tittle, that my Christian life became more academic than relational. I feel like I am distant from God and that I don't really know HIM. Terri's post helped me see this.

I need to get back into the Bible on my own time (I have pretty much quit reading at home, but I have still attended church Bible studies.) I think maybe I need to take time off from the church Bible studies, and do my own reading and rebuilding my closeness to God Himself. And I need to stay out of GT!!!!

[A. believer]

You know, I think I'm seeing what a big part of my problem is. I think I could be content to "not have it all figured out." I don't really care who is right on OSAS, election, etc etc. I just want to live each day for Christ in a way that would bring him honor.

But I am in a church that is very "doctrine oriented." Having "right doctrine" is considered very important. Other churches that have differing opinions of various doctrinal issues are often criticized from the pulpit and from Bible study leaders. Our pastor believes it is his duty to point out "errors" (that is, interpretations different than his) of other denominations----but like I keep asking here, who is say which interpretation is correct?! This kind of criticism happens in nearly every sermon and every Bible study. (btw, it would be difficult to switch churches for various reasons, a main one being my husband's involvement there and his desire to stay there).

I am realizing that our church spends more time teaching about doctrinal nit-pickies rather than helping us deepen our relationship with God Himself. I was really wrapped up in the Bible for so many years, and trying to understand every little jot and tittle, that my Christian life became more academic than relational. I feel like I am distant from God and that I don't really know HIM. Terri's post helped me see this.

I need to get back into the Bible on my own time (I have pretty much quit reading at home, but I have still attended church Bible studies.) I think maybe I need to take time off from the church Bible studies, and do my own reading and rebuilding my closeness to God Himself. And I need to stay out of GT!!!!

Hi Kayanne,

I think that being comfortable with the idea of not having all the answers is a very good place to be. This isn't to say that theology isn't important because it is. But having all one's theological i's dotted and t's crossed isn't the main goal of a vibrant Christian faith. Theology is important because theology is the study of who God is and how He relates to us. We all have some theology--even unbelievers, even atheists have a "theology" of sorts--and everything you believe fits somewhere into your theological construct--even when you aren't consciously aware of what it is. You, and all of us, interpret all of reality through the lens of our theology. But although Scripture does reveal those things about God He's chosen for us to know, our own individual human limitations, assumptions, cultural notions, sins, etc., all affect how we read and understand Scripture. Scripture is meant to be read and understood in community (in the context of the church universal) and I've repeatedly seen that whenever one individual or one denomination or one segment of a denomination or a follower of a one particular theologian, or whatever, claims or acts as if they have God all figured out, and they don't think they have anything to learn from other people, other traditions within the church, etc., it's never good. Some denominations are more prone to this than others and some individual congregations within a denomination are worse than others, etc. If your home church is particularly prone to this, then perhaps you should be in prayer over it, but you needn't be personally stressed about it. Maybe staying away from the Bible studies, though, at least for now, is a good idea, and staying out of GT is almost certainly a good idea.

I'm not satisfied with how I've articulated these thoughts. This is a very short encapsulation of thoughts that have been developing for years. I was initially born again, 20 years ago, in a church that was extremely doctrinally rigid and arrogant and they even explicitly taught that people who didn't believe their doctrines and weren't baptized according to their formula either were not, or at least most likely were not, saved. I thank God that He led me out of that group fairly quickly, and that I was exposed to other Christian traditions. And in the past few years, I've been exposed to many more faith traditions through Christian message boards, and one of the things that I find helpful is learning more and more about church history and getting a more balanced view of our rich Christian heritage. It definitely helps put things in a better perspective for me, and it helps me see how the church got to the place it is today, and how God sovereignly keeps His covenant people, both individually and collectively, in spite of us.

[Carrye]

I think that being comfortable with the idea of not having all the answers is a very good place to be.

Right. And if we had all of the answers, we would quite literally be God.

Kayanne, I really do encourage you to get back to sacred scripture - ignorance of scripture really is ignorance of Christ (St. Jerome). Learn what you can. Pray. Live a good life. Be holy.

Together with you in Him,
Carrie

[Gold Dragon]

Amen, A.believer. I thought you articulated those ideas very well.

[A. believer]

Amen, A.believer. I thought you articulated those ideas very well.

Thank you. :)

[Unnamed Servant]

:wave:
Basically I think the Catholic are teaching sound doctrine. More and more I am finding great respect for the Catholic Church. Like they do not change their doctrine to satisfy every passing fad.

I know there are some things one can find fault with, but hey the same thing applies to all denominations.

I am thinking of checking out the Catholic Church also.

If you won't to know what God's word that the Bible teaches more than you won't any thing this world has to offer then keep on studying comparing scripture with scripture, letting the Holy Spirit interpit it for you. You also need to loose all your preconceived idears. I have learned the ones that have learned this way do not disagree on what important.
Isa 28:10 For precept mustbe upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: :clap:



I thoroughly agree with how lambslove has addressed this issue but would like to add something else.

The major problem within the catholic church is not if a layman can interpret the scripture on his own, it is like lambslove addressed earlier, the doctrine of the taking of the sacraments as necessary to salvation.

This is most definitely NOT sound doctrine. I am very passionate in a stance against this because the bible clearly preaches grace through faith alone.

DO NOT LISTEN TO ME if you think I am wrong. Listen to Paul. Was his most harsh remarks held for the sexually immoral and adulterous Corinthians? NO! All that I am wants to say why not come down hard on them, but the fact is that Pauls harshes remarks were for that of the Galatians. Paul, unlike almost all his other letters, does not even address the church as saints in his opening.

What was it that the Galatians had done so wrong. Paul says they were preaching a false gospel in Galatians 1:9: As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

But what was this false gospel? It was the same thing the catholic church believes today, that salvation comes not merely through faith in Christ, but through the Law. The Galatians were holding circumcision as necessary for salvation, just as catholics hold the sacraments as necessary to salvation. Paul said in Galatians 3:1-3: 1 Youfoolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


The law is anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, or a command.

This is not a minor area of doctrine that we can look over, Paul hammers that in Galatians.

I am not saying that all catholics are not christians, but the basis of salvation posed by the catholic church is directly in contradiction with the gospel. This is why Paul speaks in such a stern, urgent tone in Galatians.

I love all catholics, but I do not believe that the receiving of salvation by any other means than faith in the Jesus Christ is biblical. I side with Paul in calling it a false gospel.

I would like to reiterate that I believe there are many catholics that do not hold this belief and do know Jesus as their Lord and savior. It is the foundational belief of the catholic church on this issue of salvation that I am addressing. In this case I refuse to trade truth for false unity because it deals with salvation and is called a false gospel by Paul. This can simply not be seen as good doctrine. I encourage you to read Galatians and take note of the serioiusness of Paul's message.

Love-through-Christ,

US

[Smidlee]

But I am in a church that is very "doctrine oriented." Having "right doctrine" is considered very important. Other churches that have differing opinions of various doctrinal issues are often criticized from the pulpit and from Bible study leaders. Our pastor believes it is his duty to point out "errors" (that is, interpretations different than his) of other denominations----but like I keep asking here, who is say which interpretation is correct?! This kind of criticism happens in nearly every sermon and every Bible study. (btw, it would be difficult to switch churches for various reasons, a main one being my husband's involvement there and his desire to stay there). Well any church will have it's strengths and weakness. I agree criticizing doctrine of other denominations ever sermon is too much. Your church sound like the church at Ephesus in Revelation who held on to sound doctrine but they left their first love. Just continue to pray for your pastors and church. Pray God guide you to build it up your church.

I am realizing that our church spends more time teaching about doctrinal nit-pickies rather than helping us deepen our relationship with God Himself. I was really wrapped up in the Bible for so many years, and trying to understand every little jot and tittle, that my Christian life became more academic than relational. I feel like I am distant from God and that I don't really know HIM. Terri's post helped me see this.

I need to get back into the Bible on my own time (I have pretty much quit reading at home, but I have still attended church Bible studies.) I think maybe I need to take time off from the church Bible studies, and do my own reading and rebuilding my closeness to God Himself. And I need to stay out of GT!!!! It maybe you that God would use to make His church a better place to worship even if it's a small thing. If you see an area in the church that weak then ask God to help you make a difference. There are Godly women in my church who may not understand everything about doctrine as the pastor but oh , how they make a difference.

[ZiSunka]

You know, I think I'm seeing what a big part of my problem is. I think I could be content to "not have it all figured out." I don't really care who is right on OSAS, election, etc etc. I just want to live each day for Christ in a way that would bring him honor.


That's all you need kayanne. Don't worry about OSAS and all that other stuff. Just live each day becoming more Christ-like and that's all you need to do. :)

[GreenEyedLady]

But what was this false gospel? It was the same thing the catholic church believes today, that salvation comes not merely through faith in Christ, but through the Law. The Galatians were holding circumcision as necessary for salvation, just as catholics hold the sacraments as necessary to salvation. Paul said in Galatians 3:1-3: 1 Youfoolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


The law is anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, or a command.

This is not a minor area of doctrine that we can look over, Paul hammers that in Galatians.

I am not saying that all catholics are not christians, but the basis of salvation posed by the catholic church is directly in contradiction with the gospel. This is why Paul speaks in such a stern, urgent tone in Galatians.

I love all catholics, but I do not believe that the receiving of salvation by any other means than faith in the Jesus Christ is biblical. I side with Paul in calling it a false gospel.

I would like to reiterate that I believe there are many catholics that do not hold this belief and do know Jesus as their Lord and savior. It is the foundational belief of the catholic church on this issue of salvation that I am addressing. In this case I refuse to trade truth for false unity because it deals with salvation and is called a false gospel by Paul. This can simply not be seen as good doctrine. I encourage you to read Galatians and take note of the serioiusness of Paul's message.

Love-through-Christ,

US

AMEN!!!!!! Good post.
This is so true!
Peace at all costs IS NOT the Gospel message.
Jesus said GRACE and peace be with you, not peace be with you.
Grace comes BEFORE peace. Jesus did not die to make us reconcile with man, He died so that we could be reconciled with God!!!!!!

GEL

[MbiaJc]

I thoroughly agree with how lambslove has addressed this issue but would like to add something else.

The major problem within the catholic church is not if a layman can interpret the scripture on his own, it is like lambslove addressed earlier, the doctrine of the taking of the sacraments as necessary to salvation.

This is most definitely NOT sound doctrine. I am very passionate in a stance against this because the bible clearly preaches grace through faith alone.

DO NOT LISTEN TO ME if you think I am wrong. Listen to Paul. Was his most harsh remarks held for the sexually immoral and adulterous Corinthians? NO! All that I am wants to say why not come down hard on them, but the fact is that Pauls harshes remarks were for that of the Galatians. Paul, unlike almost all his other letters, does not even address the church as saints in his opening.

What was it that the Galatians had done so wrong. Paul says they were preaching a false gospel in Galatians 1:9: As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

But what was this false gospel? It was the same thing the catholic church believes today, that salvation comes not merely through faith in Christ, but through the Law. The Galatians were holding circumcision as necessary for salvation, just as catholics hold the sacraments as necessary to salvation. Paul said in Galatians 3:1-3: 1 Youfoolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


The law is anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, or a command.

This is not a minor area of doctrine that we can look over, Paul hammers that in Galatians.

I am not saying that all catholics are not christians, but the basis of salvation posed by the catholic church is directly in contradiction with the gospel. This is why Paul speaks in such a stern, urgent tone in Galatians.

I love all catholics, but I do not believe that the receiving of salvation by any other means than faith in the Jesus Christ is biblical. I side with Paul in calling it a false gospel.

I would like to reiterate that I believe there are many catholics that do not hold this belief and do know Jesus as their Lord and savior. It is the foundational belief of the catholic church on this issue of salvation that I am addressing. In this case I refuse to trade truth for false unity because it deals with salvation and is called a false gospel by Paul. This can simply not be seen as good doctrine. I encourage you to read Galatians and take note of the serioiusness of Paul's message.

Love-through-Christ,

US

I do not know all the musch about the Catholic Church doctrine. The Catholic Church my dayghter is a member of teaches by Grace through faith.

Any thing short of what Jesus said is another Gospel.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[A. believer]

I do not know all the musch about the Catholic Church doctrine. The Catholic Church my dayghter is a member of teaches by Grace through faith.

Any thing short of what Jesus said is another Gospel.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


The official teaching of the Catholic Church as pronounced by Council of Trent is that we're saved by grace through faith and works.

[novcncy]

Please Remove

[MbiaJc]

The official teaching of the Catholic Church as pronounced by Council of Trent is that we're saved by grace through faith and works.


It depends on what they mean and works?

Aberham believed God and it was counted to him for rightousness. He did what God said and that fustified him. Like James says faith without works is dead. I look at it like this: We are saved by Grace of God and through the Faith of Jesus Christ. We do what Christ says out of love because we believe Him, not to earn salvation. However without the works we neither believe or love Him. For He said if you love Me keep My Commandments.

Is something like that what they mean by works?

[Fat]

I do not know all the musch about the Catholic Church doctrine. The Catholic Church my dayghter is a member of teaches by Grace through faith.

Any thing short of what Jesus said is another Gospel.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't know much about the Catholic Church either. Where do you think Mary fits into Joh 14:6 ?

Fat
:scratch:

[mesue]

When I was first saved and settled in a church, the Sunday School Teacher would always say "Let Scripture interpret Scripture." and "Let the Holy Spirit guide you with all prayer and study." God is not the God of confusion. He did not write one thing down in one book and have it mean something else in another. He also said "Don't hang your meaning on one verse alone. Go back a few verses to get the whole meaning in context."

I try to do just that. It doesn't make me infallable, just somewhat more knowlegable than yesterday. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. In the right dose that is a good medicine for my soul.

[mesue]

It depends on what they mean and works?

Aberham believed God and it was counted to him for rightousness. He did what God said and that fustified him. Like James says faith without works is dead. I look at it like this: We are saved by Grace of God and through the Faith of Jesus Christ. We do what Christ says out of love because we believe Him, not to earn salvation. However without the works we neither believe or love Him. For He said if you love Me keep My Commandments.

Is something like that what they mean by works?
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James was not speaking to the lost, he was speaking to the saved.
Kinda' like when Pual said:
1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
:)

[Smidlee]

James was not speaking to the lost, he was speaking to the saved.

:)
Not just the saved but the saved Jews. At first the church was totally Jewish.

[MbiaJc]

I don't know much about the Catholic Church either. Where do you think Mary fits into Joh 14:6 ?

Fat
:scratch:


I don't see any difference in asking her to interceed for you than asking anyone to pray for you.

[MbiaJc]

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James was not speaking to the lost, he was speaking to the saved.
Kinda' like when Pual said:
1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
:)

So what your point here?

I know what the Bible teaches. The question was how does the Catholic Church teach works?

[Sinai]

I am increasingly frustrated by the lack of agreement regarding what the Bible is truly saying on different issues, and I'll tell ya, I feel like my faith is having the rug pulled out from under it. I understand the Catholic opinion that people shouldn't be their "own Holy Spirit" (that's one way I've heard individual interpretation described).The Bible repeatedly tells us how important it is to God that we have a relationship with Him. A relationship is more than merely accepting what someone else says we should think, do or believe. A relationship is formed by knowing the other person--or, in this case, by knowing God. If we love God and seek His direction in our lives, we will typically have a yearning to know Him better by studying His word, by seeking His direction in prayer, and by following the Holy Spirit's direction.

Does that mean we will always agree with all our Christian brothers on all interpretations of all scripture? No, of course not. But if my fellow believers have the same right to study God's word and to determine what they each think the most likely meanings are, then we should be able to discuss our varying interpretations--and the resulting learning experience can be an enrichment for all concerned. I know I have grown in my walk with the Lord as a result of such shared study.... Man oh man, the Bible IS definitely confusing--seems to say one thing in this place and another thing somewhere else.When a particular passage appears to conflict with another passage (or with scientific evidence, etc.), I have found it helpful to go back to the original Hebrew or Greek passages and prayerfully study all the possible meanings of the words and phrases in question. I have found that virtually all of the apparent conflict will tend to melt away as I understand what each passage means.

I'm ashamed to say I have practically given up reading or studying the Bible. I feel like my mind will never sort it all out, and if I'm going to misunderstand it or become more confused, then why bother? Yet I don't believe this is how God wants me to feel.Please don't give up on studying God's word. Check out some good Bible commentaries and study Bibles. PM me if you need some suggestions or have specific questions.

Some days I'm half tempted to bail out of my scripture only church and check out Catholocism, but I'm a little hung up on 2 Timothy 2:15. I mean, that verse is a mainstay in scripture only churches. I don't know if I could ever delegate the whole job of studying and interpreting to someone else, even though I'm not doing a very good job of it myself!I don't think I could either! It would also mean giving up so much pleasure in being immersed in God's word and studying the various passages. When God reveals additional meaning to even familiar passages, it is a wonderful worship experience. Call me selfish if you wish, but I wouldn't want to part with it.

[Fat]

I don't see any difference in asking her to interceed for you than asking anyone to pray for you.

Joh 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I believe the only Mediator between God and man is Christ. But that's not the topic of this thread.

Fat :)

[MbiaJc]

Joh 14:6 Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I believe the only Mediator between God and man is Christ. But that's not the topic of this thread.

Fat :)

Agreed, However we ask fellow Christians to pray for us(potition Christ in our name) don't we. Same thing the way I see it.

[A. believer]

It depends on what they mean and works?

Aberham believed God and it was counted to him for rightousness. He did what God said and that fustified him. Like James says faith without works is dead. I look at it like this: We are saved by Grace of God and through the Faith of Jesus Christ. We do what Christ says out of love because we believe Him, not to earn salvation. However without the works we neither believe or love Him. For He said if you love Me keep My Commandments.

Is something like that what they mean by works?

The doctrines of salvation were worked out at the time of the Reformation. The teaching of the Reformers is as you stated. We are counted as righteous not because of any righteousness inherent in us, but because of the perfect righteousness of Christ apprehended through faith. The good works that we do are the fruit of a life of faith, but we are not justified before God on the basis of those good works.

The counter-Reformation Roman Catholic Council of Trent then formalized their teaching in opposition to this. They conflated the doctrines of justification and sanctification so that the fruits of justification became a means of justification, and they anathematized the teaching of the Reformers. The following are two of the anathemas against the Reformation doctrine of justication.

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

These anathemas have never been repealed.