curious Calvinist (really!!)

[reformedfan]

The Reformed view of the sacraments & the preaching of the Word is that such things are done in the church, by one called to preach.

Who preaches to you guys & what is your view of the sacraments? I guess I don't understand you. Do you stay home Sunday mornings? How do you tithe?

(don't be mean, this isn't a debate. If you had an 'ask a home church guy' subsection of this forum like the dandy one in Calvinism Central I'd post this there, I'm just curious to be curious, not because I'm interested in being a homechurched girl, though.)

[2+2=5]

Who preaches to you guys
No one man "preaches" per say; Each one has an opportunity to bring a teaching, etc (i Cor 14:26)
what is your view of the sacraments?
As far as the Lords supper goes, We celebrate it as a full meal, just as they did in the new testament.
Do you stay home Sunday mornings?
We rotate from house to house.
How do you tithe
We give to missionaries or families in need, or where ever the LORD leads.
I'm just curious to be curious, not because I'm interested in being a homechurched girl, though
Never say never. :D ;)

Hope that helps! And also, bear in mind this is how the church that I personally assemble with functions, I’m sure there are many others that function totally different!

[New_Wineskin]

Each person is different . Here are *my* answers .


Who preaches to you guys & what is your view of the sacraments?


I consider that preaching is for the nonbeliever and not the believer . You may mean "teaching" instead of "preaching" . As for teaching , the Lord does a good job .

I don't consider that there are "sacraments" because that would give way to works for salvation from my pov .



I guess I don't understand you. Do you stay home Sunday mornings?


I usually go grocery shopping Sunday mornings . I am unsure why Sundays are so prominent . Too much of a tradition for me .



How do you tithe?


I don't know of any Levites living in my area . So , I wouldn't know how . As far as *giving* goes , I give when and where the Lord desires .

I don't think that was much help .

[reformedfan]

thanx, guys.

[Bevlina]

The Reformed view of the sacraments & the preaching of the Word is that such things are done in the church, by one called to preach.

Who preaches to you guys & what is your view of the sacraments? I guess I don't understand you.

There is no preaching as you know it. We are not talked at. We are talked to. And, we talk between ourselves.

Do you stay home Sunday mornings?
Actually, I like to mow my lawns on a Sunday morning.

How do you tithe?


As we have no Levites to give them to, we help one another.

(don't be mean, this isn't a debate. If you had an 'ask a home church guy' subsection of this forum like the dandy one in Calvinism Central I'd post this there, I'm just curious to be curious, not because I'm interested in being a homechurched girl, though.)

I'm happy to hear it isn't a debate.

[Morning Dove]

This is very interesting. As everyone knows, the early Christians met in their own homes. :)

[Bevlina]

So true, and I have a meeting to go to tonight.

[Anduril]

I don't believe sacraments are necessary, I read and listen to sermons over the Internet, and yeah I just stay at home on Sunday mornings. I'm not sure about tithing at the moment, until now I've mostly been a student up to my arm pits in debt. I think I'd like to find and help out a church that really needed it.

[JMRE5150]

And for the record:

The english term "church" is derived from the greek word "ekklesia", which simply means assembly.

[New_Wineskin]

The Reformed view of the sacraments & the preaching of the Word is that such things are done in the church, by one called to preach.

Who preaches to you guys & what is your view of the sacraments? I guess I don't understand you. Do you stay home Sunday mornings? How do you tithe?


House groups differ with each other . So , one can only give answers according to their group ( if they are involved in a singular group ) .

Of course , you realize that your questions are related to things that you take for granted . Some answers could be in the form of questions , "Why would I *need* 'sacraments' , someone preaching to me , tithe , or do anything else *but* stay home Sundays ? These questions could occur to those that have not been introduced to the doctrines with which you are familiar .

Since *I* know of these doctrines , I can give answers as to *myself* .

Someone preaching ... putting aside that I consider that one only "preaches" to unbelievers , I am old enough in the Lord that I have heard all the major topics . Also , I rarely hear any topic that I have not heard of before .

Sacraments ... I don't cansider that there are any real sacraments .

Sunday mornings ... I go to the grocery store and McDonalds Sunday mornings .

Tithing ... I consider that tithing is an impossiblility with me . But , I do give as the Lord leads .

[Count]

Each person is different . Here are *my* answers .



I consider that preaching is for the nonbeliever and not the believer . You may mean "teaching" instead of "preaching" . As for teaching , the Lord does a good job .

I don't consider that there are "sacraments" because that would give way to works for salvation from my pov .




I usually go grocery shopping Sunday mornings . I am unsure why Sundays are so prominent . Too much of a tradition for me .




I don't know of any Levites living in my area . So , I wouldn't know how . As far as *giving* goes , I give when and where the Lord desires .

I don't think that was much help .

I like your answers very much New Wineskin. It seemed like your answers were mines. I wouldn't answer differently. It seems that we have the same views almost in every thing about the church.

Preaching in the NT is quite different from the sermons of the so-called churches today. While in the NT Christ was preached, today is being preached tithing, evangelism, submission, how to pray, how to read the bible, how to be humble, how to love etc. Ugh, that's really hell. Are we supposed to do all these things? I don't think so! I'd rather let Christ who dwells in me do all these things for me.

Sacraments? Well, do we find such a word in NT? I didn't happen to find such a word. If anyone did, please let me know.

As for the Sundays, well, it has been 7 years now that I don't have to take my bible in my hand and head for the church building. It has really been great. I enjoy my Sundays drinking coffee with my wife and going out with my son.

Tithing? What's that? Oh yeah, I'm sorry, 7 years now out of the organized church has affected my memory? :) Is there such a thing like tithing in NT? Nope!

[discernomatic]

I agree with New Wineskin too, except that I hear some new topics now and then. I would call myself a semi-calvinist, I believe in the sovereignty of God and predestination. As far as sermons go, I do like teaching by internet, occasionally tune in to Sermonaudio dot com. Once in a while I attend services at a nearby pentecostal church, but it is not much to my liking and I only do so to be with other Christians once in a while. The Holy Spirit is a good teacher, and surprisingly enough, living in the "desert" for years, I have for about 16 years now, is not so bad at all. It can be lonely at times, but you learn to live off of manna and water from the rock. You learn to gather it yourself, it is there for the taking, even more than enough of it and it is very nourishing, not fattening. Breaking bread with a few good Christian friends in a home setting is very edifying and fulfills Jesus' command. Reading the bible and prayer are very sustaining. Being out of a church for years I see the unnecessary rituals that some have built up and frankly I don't like unnecessary and costly ritual. The money for property and a church building not to mention maintenance costs might be better spent elsewhere.

[Hisrosebud]

Hello.'
My husband and I are new to being "unchurched". We have been "free" for almost a year now. Actually, we left the church a year ago but it took them several months of condemning phone calls and visits before we were actually free. Every now and then when I bump into one of them at the grocery store I begin to hear the clanking of the chains of condemnation. . . .I have to remember quickly who I belong to (JESUS) and how much He loves me. . .so I guess I am not TOTALLY free just yet.

Sundays have become a day of rest for my family.

We love finally being together. What we used to do was jump out of bed, force a child with sensory integration issues into clothes, into the car, get to the building- what week was it? teach sunday school class, usher, greet, you name it. We listened to a long winded opinionated sermon that may or may not have had bible scriptures in it that may or may not have been quoted and implemented accurately. At 12:30 we would be released to rush our children home to be babysat, feed them and have to arrive to a home group by 1:00 (DON"T BE LATE< IT IS NOT A SPIRIT OF EXCELLANCE!). Which would end at 4:00. We would rush home, prepare for the week, exhausted, feeling condemnation, confused, over whelmed-- well, feeling many things except the presence of Christ or the fruits of the spirit.

oh and this was after the entire week of doing this. Meetings, trainings, midweek service, youth outings, visiting prophets. Almost every nights and most saturdays.

We ACHED for family time, prayer time, rest time, visiting non-church friends and relatives and on sometimes; shower time (LOL).

Tithing? Well, I would ask, "why is it the only old testament law that we still follow?"
We did. Faithfully. and more-- after all, "NO ONE CAN OUTGIVE GOD." (hmmm, pastors two kids went to an expensive private school, they had nice cars, expensive shoes--and we are behind on our taxes because we are giving God firstfruits and trusting Him to supply our every need.?????? HEY- is that pastor GOD? Cause that's who it looks like we are giving to, we're not really sure because they won't post church finances anywhere--they say we can ask--and we do- and they question our faith and trust in them. . . .)


So I guess we figure with all the time we went to church; we've given enough sabbaths for at least the next 20 years. Can't outgive God, but we figure he might want us to clean up our finances a little bit. . . .


Any way, I liked a lot of the responses given. I just wanted to post a few of my thoughts. We didn't look to be "unchurched" ; would have called someone like myself a heretic or decieved not so long ago---- and yet we find ourselves in some of the best moments of our lives since we have left.


Hope you find the answers to fill your curiosity.
Jane

[Count]

Hello Hisrosebud,

I liked your answer, and I really understand what you have gone through. Our Lord is a beautiful Lord. He doesn't want us to strive to do things to please Him. Actually, He is so jelous that He wants to do all things in our lives Himself. He dwells in us, and all He wants from us is to turn within and rest in Him. All He wants from us is to continually turn to Him. All He wants is to do what Maria did, but unfortunately, most of us do what Martha did. We are like Martha and want to always serve Him, but He doesn't need us at all. It is us who need Him.

We don't have to do things to please Him. Actually we can't please Him. The flesh can't please Him. The only one who pleased the Father was Jesus Christ (Luke 3:22), but Jesus Christ dwells in us and God the Father sees in us Jesus Christ, so through Jesus Christ we have already pleased our Father. Let all of us learn to turn to Him who is inside us and see Him what He does and we do the same. Jesus Christ Himself set this example to us while on earth. He said that he could do nothing by Himself, but He saw what the Father was doing and He did the same. When Jesus could do nothing by himself, how do we excpect to do something by ourselves. Let us lear to do what Jesus did. Let us live by His life.

[Bevlina]

Yep. I like to learn by being talked to, not preached at. Just friendly nice talks which leave me refreshed and happy because I was born a happy person. Father see's our hearts. That means the world to me. And, He does too! ;)

[lismore]

Who preaches to you guys & what is your view of the sacraments?



We share with one another what the Lord has given us:) .

My bedroom window overlooks a registrars office.





I guess I don't understand you. Do you stay home Sunday mornings?


Yes, because the sabbath is saturday. I have a nice rest:)



How do you tithe?



In line with the scriptures I take one tenth of all my carrots and tomatoes to Jerusalem where I eat them with the Orthodox Jews;)

Deuteronomy 14:
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.

[BeforeThereWas]

Who preaches to you guys

Who said that a group must always be preached to? Where is that in the word of God?

How do you tithe?

Where does the word of God say that anyone must tithe?

I'm just trying to understand the basis of your questions.

You see, there's no right answer to the wrong question.

BTW

[mortsmune]

And for the record:

The english term "church" is derived from the greek word "ekklesia", which simply means assembly. Actually, this is not really correct. The word "church" does come from a Greek word, but it is the word "kyriakos," which means "belonging to the Lord." The word "ecclesiastical" comes from the Greek word "ekklesia." FYI

[BeforeThereWas]

Here's an interesting outline for study on the alleged requirement to tithe:

The tithe was instituted to support temple operations and its ministry of meeting needs, not for the temple's upkeep. The temple's upkeep was made possible from the offerings, not the tithe. The temple is no longer in existence. The Levitical priesthood has been abolished. Jews today do not tithe, and have not since the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Should we? What authority does organized religion have to collect tithes, the primary portion of believer's giving, in support of its own expenditures rather than for the meeting of needs as is exemplified in the scriptures? What authority does organized religion have to say that the tithe is now money? The Bible offers no support for what is going on today. This outline gives many references for verification of the fact that organized religion, although backed by 17 centuries of man-made traditions, is even today guilty of violating biblical truths by way of false teaching and practice, claimed to be consistent with biblical command and example.

I.Tithing before Levitical laws of tithing.

A. No tithe mentioned in the first 2000 years (Genesis 1-11).

B. First mention is Abram to Melchizedek (Gen. 14:16-24), 400 years before tithing law.

1. Abram tithed on spoils of war, not his own wealth he had before the war. Law of tithing later recorded in the book of Leviticus required tithing only on increase of land (produce) and animals, not wages exchanged for labor. (Lev.27: 30,31) Wages are not a form of increase as defined by the Law governing the tithe. Wages are an exchange.

2. Law concerning spoils of war was given by Moses. (Num. 31:9, 27-29) Spoil divided evenly between the congregation and those who went out to battle. Congregation gave 1/50th to Levites from their half. Warriors gave 1/500th to priests from their half.

3. Abram's tithe was, in fact, a free-will offering.

C. Next mention is Jacob, again before the institution of the tithe (Gen.28: 20-22). Offered on Jacob's terms (If thou wilt be with me, and keep me, and give me bread to eat and raiment to put on, and protection, then…) Attaching strings to one's offering to the Lord is not at all an example to any of us for anything.

D. Joseph didn't tithe at all to God, but called for two-tenths to go to Pharaoh. Shows that tithing was not universal, as some falsely teach.

E. Moses raised money before the institution of the tithe.

1. Spoiled Egyptians (Ex.13:35). No tithe paid on this.

2. Tithe still not mentioned when the first commandments were given. (Ex. 20-22, "The Book of the Covenant")

3. Free-will offering taken to finance building of tabernacle. (Ex.35: 22,29; 36:3,7) Again, no tithes.

II. Initial tithe set up, after 1 year in the wilderness (Lev.27: 30-33), but not instituted until the appointed place was errected, in the Promised Land, where the Lord's name was written. Farming and orchards in the desert was very unlikely. ;)

A. Included ONLY agricultural products (seed of the lad and fruit of the tree and vine), and animals (herd or flock) - the TENTH one to pass under the rod, not the first. (Lev. 27:30-32) Also, tithe was not owed unless more than 9 were born in that year, so the tithe was paid only on increase. The Mishnah says "whatsoever is kept, watched over, cultivated and grows from the soil; whatever is used for food (excluding unclean). So, if a man made his living harvesting clams, there was no requirement for him to tithe from his profits. If he raised walnuts, he had to tithe the part that was sold for food, but if he sold the husks, to make dye, or to stuff beanbags, or to use in sandblasting, he didn't have to tithe upon the profit.

1. Exception - one could give money instead of produce, but he was required to pay an extra 1/5th (2%). This exception didn't apply to animals ("shall not be redeemed" v 33).

2. Other occupations mentioned, but from which no tithe was required (including EMPLOYEES of farm and ranch owners), are fishing (Lev. 11:9-12), mining (De. 8:9,10), timber business (1 Kgs. 5:7-12); construction work (including stonecutters and stonemasons, 1 Kgs. 5: 13-18). Also listed are weavers and other crafts, as well as all types of manufacturing or merchandising; military and government workers.

B. Levites commanded to pay one-tenth of tithe they received to priests. (Num.18: 25-28)

C. Priests exempt from the tithe.

III. Adjustments made to original tithe as Israel was leaving wilderness (nomadic existence) and going into Canaan (settled life). Deut. 1-11 gives introduction to changes. Since Israel was going to be scattered over large areas, Levites and priests would live in 48 priestly cities where tithes could be stored or paid. (Joshua 21)

A. Moses said that, in the wilderness, people had done "Whatsoever is right in his own eyes" as far as tithe, burnt offerings, sacrifices, heave offerings, vows, free will offerings, firstlings (De 12:6,8), but that in the land of promise, there will be specific laws governing these things. Note that laws concerning firstlings (first fruits) are different than tithing laws. (Num.3: 12,13,40-45; 8:16-18, Lv.23:10-14, Num.18:12-28; De. 18:4)

B. Moses didn't want Levites to have rulership over Israel.

1. People set aside 10% of their crop and animal production each year. This was called the "first tithe" - Maaseroth. Brought to central tabernacle (later temple) - De. 14:22-24. People who lived too far to transport tithe could convert to money - with no penalty - v25.

2. Israelites told to use part of their tithe to rejoice before God with their families and servants, and to share it with the Levites. (Deut. 14:26,27) This was to be done in the first, second, fourth, and fifth years of the 7-year tithing cycle. Maasersheni was 1/60th to 1/40th.

3. In the third and sixth years, the tithe was not to be brought to the central sanctuary, but was to be given to the Levites and the needy people in their own areas. (De.14:28,29)

IV. Levites' place in society.

A. Authorized to receive tithe, except for parts of tithe used by families in feasts and for ministry to the poor by the families themselves ("Peah" was the poor man's tithe, given every 3rd and 6th year - Deut. 14:28. The "gleaning" laws were part of this same poor man's tithe, and were in effect every year.

B. Had other ways of earning money.

1. Levites were not given territories like other tribes, but they were given reasonable amounts of acreage for cattle, fields and vineyards just outside the priestly cities. (Num. 1-5). Actual square mileage owned by Levites in Israel was very close to what was given to Benjamin and Zebulon - it was just divided up around 48 cities.

2.Other than the third and sixth years, the only Levites that received the tithe were those who ministered in the central tabernacle, and then they only got the part left over from the family celebrations before the Lord.

3.Levites lived off the tithe only when it was their turn to minister in the temple. (De 18:6,8; Luke 1:5,8,9)

4. Levites also served as teachers (Deut. 24:8; 33:10; 2 Chr 35:3; Ne. 8:7), judges (Deut. 17:8,9; 21:5; 1 Chr. 23:4; 2 Chr. 19:8; Ezk. 44:24), tended to medical situations (Lev. 13:2; 14:2; Luke 17:14), performed as singers and musicians (1 Chr. 25; 2 Chr. 5:12-14; 34:12), scribes, officers and doorkeepers (2 Chr. 34:13 officers and doorkeepers refer to security), architects and builders (2 Chr. 34:8-13). The tithe, paid every third year, provided all these services, plus aid to the poor.

V. Funding the temple

A. Tithing applied ONLY to territorial Israel. (Lev 27:30)

B. Tithe not acceptable from Gentile lands, as even the dust was considered defiled. (Edersheim "Life and Times" vol. 1, page 9)

C. Temple was not supported only from the tithe of crops and animals. Additional, primary funding came from the yearly half-shekel offering required from every Jewish male 20 years old and older, whether living in Israel or abroad. (Ex. 30:11-16) Half a shekel was about 2 days' work. One shekel from the fish's mouth paid the annual tribute for both Jesus and Peter. (Mt. 17:27)

1. It is estimated that three to four million Jewish males were paying tribute to the temple in Jesus' day. Two days' work, at $60 a day, would be $120. That would be $360 million to $500 million per year for the temple treasury, not counting the tithe.

VI. New Testament references to tithing vs. supporting Christian ministry through voluntary giving.

A. Jesus to Pharisees - Mt. 23:23 - pertained to Old Covenant, as did His instruction to a leper to offer animal sacrifices (Luke 5:14), and to disciples to pay temple tribute. (Mt 17:24-27) He also acknowledged the authority of the scribes and Pharisees (they sit in Moses' seat), and told His disciples to do as they commanded. (Mt. 23:2,3)

1. OT forms of worship in force "until the time of reformation." (Heb. 9:10)

2. Done away as partial. (2 Cor. 3, Heb. 8,9,10)

B. Jesus considered Himself ineligible to receive tithes, with His being from the tribe of Judah, not Levi.

1. Supported by private funds; voluntary giving. (Luke 8:3; 10:3-16)

2. Lived by faith. (Mt. 6:25-34)

C. Paul didn't collect tithe, but accepted free-will offerings from churches (2 Cor. 11:8; Acts 20:28, 33, 35), and worked at tent-making.

D. No record of tithe being collected during age covered by apostles and their immediate successors. Earliest record of ecclesiastical tithing law is 6th century. Enforced by secular law by 8th century. Persisted as church tax throughout Europe until 1800s. Still in force in Germany, unless citizens formally renounce church membership. Eastern Orthodox churches have never accepted the concept of tithing. (Encyclopedia Britannica).

E. Melchizedek - a change in the law? (Heb. 7:12)

1. Change in the priesthood. Levitical disannulled (Heb. 7:18, 28). Only the Melchizedek priesthood is now valid.

2. Unchangeable priesthood, or "a priesthood which passes not from one to another." (Heb. 7:24) Nobody but Melchizedek can ever be a Melchizedek priest. Christ represents Melchizedek, but the priesthood itself does not pass to another person.

3. Tithe would have to be given to Christ directly. Arguments that we should tithe to the Body of Christ on earth do not hold up, since all believers are the Body, just as we are all priests. (1 Pet. 2:5, 9) The only way we can be certain of giving to Jesus is Mt. 25:31-40, "If you have done it to the least of these, My brethren, you have done it unto Me."

F. Tithing is a legal observance that is entirely a personal choice, not a requirement laid upon Christians by the word of God. Jesus fulfilled the law. (Col. 2,3) Our legal debts are paid "in Christ," just as Levi paid tithes "in Abraham." (Heb. 7:9) This answers the original question raised in Mal. 3. Compare with Duet. 28, and Gal. 3. We walk in the blessing of what Christ has ALREADY done.

G. What about the claim that "offering" is only what is given over and above the tithe? According to 2 Cor. 9:7, it is anything offered, not under compulsion.

[rosiecotton]

Wow, thanks for all the info on the tithe. I printed it out so I could read it more closely and look up all the scriptures posted too.

[BeforeThereWas]

Wow, thanks for all the info on the tithe. I printed it out so I could read it more closely and look up all the scriptures posted too.

Here's another section of scripture you can study:

Gal 5:1-6
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (This should bring tithe teachers to a screeching halt, but they continue as if this wasn't in their Bibles.)
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The requirement to tithe is simply another aspect of the Law, like circumcision, that serves only to place people back under the curse of the Law. These people also need to read:

Gal 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Gospel sets us free, where the requirements of the Law enslave those who place themselves under its yoke.

BTW

[mortsmune]

The Reformed view of the sacraments & the preaching of the Word is that such things are done in the church, by one called to preach. I should say first of all that technically I am not a "home church" person currently, although the congregation of which I am currently a part has home meetings once a week. I also was once the leader of a home church and believe in the concept that the church is not a building and that meeting in homes is a good and biblical idea.

I could not in the confines of this forum adequately express my view of the sacraments, but I will say that I believe the true significance of the Lord's Supper has been mostly lost to virtually all Christians today. I will also say that I do not see a biblical mandate for the sacraments to be administered by "one called to preach," seeing as all of us are "called to preach." In the Bible "preaching" (kerusso) is proclaiming the Gospel to the lost, which is the calling of all believers. Pastors, on the other hand, are called to teach and to equip the saints for doing the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12).

I believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper may be administered by any true believer. In fact, the true Lord's Supper is not something that can even be "administered" by a person. It is something that each member of the assembly is to experience and participate in.

[BeforeThereWas]

I will also say that I do not see a biblical mandate for the sacraments to be administered by "one called to preach," seeing as all of us are "called to preach." In the Bible "preaching" (kerusso) is proclaiming the Gospel to the lost, which is the calling of all believers. Pastors, on the other hand, are called to teach and to equip the saints for doing the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12).

This is actually the call of all mature believers, especially the elders (plural), not just a singular "pastor". It's somewhat astounding that so many people seem to think that the term "pastor" appears upon almost every other page of the NT. Tradition dictates that this one man is thrust into the limelight in the place of Christ Jesus Himself. It's the tradition of the "pastor's" artistotilian rhetoric that is the central focus and purpose for gathering together under the headship of organized religion. The word of God gives not even one example of such nonsense. Most people even assume that the central purpose behind the gathering of believers is for corporate worship, as if that were the very apex of our corporate lives in a fallen world. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper may be administered by any true believer.

Very true indeed.

In fact, the true Lord's Supper is not something that can even be "administered" by a person. It is something that each member of the assembly is to experience and participate in.

Ah, but if all these man-made traditions fell by the wayside, then all the various systems of organized religion would loose much of their power and influence they exercise over their followers. As long as people continue to place an inordinate value upon organized religion, as if it were the highest expression of biblical continuity, these strange superstitions (which enjoy no biblical support) will continue to be drilled into the heads of all its follwers and supporters so long as its foundation of money remains.

As an aside, most organizations have a purpose and an objective, and to achieve these objectives, there needs to be procedures and resources. The resources would include money, men and machinery. In the case of organized religion, the men and machinery combine in the form of missionaries. When we have too many men for the same purpose, a hierarchy sets in, and when we have a hierarchy, there would naturally be division of work and responsibilities. So, as Men of God empower themselves with power and money, all the problems associated with an organization also find their way into the system.

Most organizations are effective, and depending upon the will and morale of the people involved, it will deliver the results. If we bother to look around, we find that the best organizations are those with the most effective people on top. What needs to be understood here is that effectiveness and efficiency have nothing much to do with being virtuous. In fact, we find this true most of the time, i.e. the virtuous ones are never the most effective ones. It's this simple fact that makes it dangerous for us to shroud religion with any organizational clothing.

Religion, as a process, has more to do with the human mind than body. Though human beings can be highly deceptive at times in suppressing their thoughts, it's essentially the way one thinks that comes out as action. Religions and true religious leaders have always motivated us to indulge only in noble thoughts and virtuous actions. It's therefore highly imperative that such religious processes always led by virtuous leaders rather than efficient and effective ones. The inevitability of any organizational approach is exactly the opposite of this essential criterion. The moment we combine religion with organization, the latter aspect starts dominating, and ‘unwanted’ elements will always come to the top. All the shameful news (pedophilia, etc.) we hear about within organized religions these days are basically reflections of this unholy amalgamation.

BTW

[mortsmune]

There is a great deal of truth to what you say. However, in the midst of this rather cynical indictment of organized religion (and I am not disagreeing with you here), do you have any positive suggestions for alternative possiblities for the many people who desire a purer and more biblical and "virtuous" experience of worship and ministry in the Body of Christ? I would certainly be interested to know your thoughts in that regard.

[BeforeThereWas]

There is a great deal of truth to what you say. However, in the midst of this rather cynical indictment of organized religion (and I am not disagreeing with you here), do you have any positive suggestions for alternative possiblities for the many people who desire a purer and more biblical and "virtuous" experience of worship and ministry in the Body of Christ? I would certainly be interested to know your thoughts in that regard.

That's a very good question. If the institutional flare is your forte', then I did run across one institution that kept the primary portion of its people's giving (used for the meeting of needs) separate from the secondary giving (used for paying the bills and other expenditures of the organization). Now, the amount put into the primary portion was always much more than the secondary portion, but the secondary was always more than enough to pay the bills and the mortgage. That organization is rare indeed. It does more to help its own people in need, and those in the surrounding community, than any other within 200 miles. That group lives and breaths the airs of faith more than most any other I have ever seen.

As for worship, well, that's an entirely different matter, and a very personal one at that. Most professing believers have no clue what true worship really is from a biblical perspective. Jesus said it best when talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. The ONLY acceptable worship before the Father is "spirit" and "truth". Those two terms describe a way of life, not some religious exercise within the four walls of organized religion, and a cathedral style, $5 million pipe organ makes no difference at all. A man who understands these words of the Master, and lives them on a daily basis, can enjoy the most glorious worship before the Lord, no matter where his steps may lead him.

BTW

[Athanasian Creed]

This is very interesting. As everyone knows, the early Christians met in their own homes. :)

I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law !


Ray :wave:

[BeforeThereWas]

I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law ! Ray :wave:

May that day come, if it is to come, that the Church may then be distinguished from those who are merely religionists.

BTW

[StJames]

Before there was,

Interesting outline. Our pastor started preaching on tithing yesterday. Interestingly, he started by saying, "I'll just be using the OT today." Hmmmmm, I wonder why?

Peter

[BeforeThereWas]

Before there was,

Interesting outline. Our pastor started preaching on tithing yesterday. Interestingly, he started by saying, "I'll just be using the OT today." Hmmmmm, I wonder why?

Peter

Well, I think you fully understand his use of the OT for that particular subject. It only works in the minds of those who are less critical in their thinking, and less knowledgable than they really should be. Your minister will proceed in the hopes that most will not be aware of the fact that the tithe was ONLY of the increase of the fields, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds, NOT money, and NOT of wages exchanged for labor (which are NOT a form of increase as defined by scripture).

Your "pastor" has the advantage, in that you will never be allowed to address the congregation from that pulpit; at least, if what you have to say contradicts your "pastor's" dogmas. It is guarded against people like you who know better than to buy into these kinds of false teachings spewed from that platform. If you try to educate others in your church about what scripture REALLY teaches, you will be labeled as a trouble-maker, a free-thinker, and any number of not-so-creative labels, and possibly even ousted from membership. You have no voice but to be one small voice drowned out by the bleeting of all the other sheep. If you listen closely, you hear a rhythm that seems to say, "Sheer us! Sheer us! We like it! We're used to it!" :doh:

Very sad indeed.

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

Well, I think you fully understand his use of the OT for that particular subject. It only works in the minds of those who are less critical in their thinking, and less knowledgable than they really should be. Your minister will proceed in the hopes that most will not be aware of the fact that the tithe was ONLY of the increase of the fields, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds, NOT money, and NOT of wages exchanged for labor (which are NOT a form of increase as defined by scripture).

Your "pastor" has the advantage, in that you will never be allowed to address the congregation from that pulpit; at least, if what you have to say contradicts your "pastor's" dogmas. It is guarded against people like you who know better than to buy into these kinds of false teachings spewed from that platform. If you try to educate others in your church about what scripture REALLY teaches, you will be labeled as a trouble-maker, a free-thinker, and any number of not-so-creative labels, and possibly even ousted from membership. You have no voice but to be one small voice drowned out by the bleeting of all the other sheep. If you listen closely, you hear a rhythm that seems to say, "Sheer us! Sheer us! We like it! We're used to it!" :doh:

Very sad indeed.

BTW

Good points . Even when people are encouraged to look at the Scriptures for themselves to check to see if what they are saying is correct , people won't . When a very few actually do , they get the run around and things get ugly or the people are humored .

[newcreature]

I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law !


Ray :wave:

You bring up a very good point. What are the churched going to do when the church as they know it, is no longer?

[BeforeThereWas]

You bring up a very good point. What are the churched going to do when the church as they know it, is no longer?

If hard times hit this country on a broad scale, church-goers will find out that their "storehouse" wasn't quite the storehouse they initially thought it to be.

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

Good points . Even when people are encouraged to look at the Scriptures for themselves to check to see if what they are saying is correct , people won't . When a very few actually do , they get the run around and things get ugly or the people are humored .

Very true indeed, especially when you talk about their pet-peve doctrines, such as tithing.

BTW

[New_Wineskin]

Very true indeed, especially when you talk about their pet-peve doctrines, such as tithing.

BTW

Yeah and "rightly dividing" and SS . Amazing .

[GlobalNomad1960]

Each person is different . Here are *my* answers .



I consider that preaching is for the nonbeliever and not the believer . You may mean "teaching" instead of "preaching" . As for teaching , the Lord does a good job .

I don't consider that there are "sacraments" because that would give way to works for salvation from my pov .




I usually go grocery shopping Sunday mornings . I am unsure why Sundays are so prominent . Too much of a tradition for me .




I don't know of any Levites living in my area . So , I wouldn't know how . As far as *giving* goes , I give when and where the Lord desires .

I don't think that was much help .
Good point on the Levitial tithe and the Christian cheerful giving.