Lutheran ecclesiology

[St.Augustine]

How do Lutherans understand ordination etc? Do you believe in apostolistic succession? Do you have bishops?

[SPALATIN]

How do Lutherans understand ordination etc? Do you believe in apostolistic succession? Do you have bishops?

ELCA does have Bishops. LCMS, WELS and ELS do not.

[Tetzel]

ELCA got its bishops in the last few years and really only did it to please the Episcopalians.

[St.Augustine]

So there is no 'official' Lutheran position?

[revjpw]

ELCA got its bishops in the last few years and really only did it to please the Episcopalians.

The ELCA have always had bishops. They have recently given in to the "apostolic succession" thing to appease the Episcopalians.

[RedneckAnglican]

The ELCA have always had bishops. They have recently given in to the "apostolic succession" thing to appease the Episcopalians.

not all of us!...

www.wordalone.com (http://www.wordalone.com)

the apostolic succession thing was one of the BIG reasons I left the episcopal church...

[revjpw]

How do Lutherans understand ordination etc? Do you believe in apostolistic succession? Do you have bishops?

Article 14 of the Augsburg Confession (one of the formal Lutheran confessional writings) says, "It is taught among us that no one should publicly teach or preach or administer the sacraments in the church without a regular call." Traditionally in the Lutheran church this has been described as a "divine call" because it is God who has instituted the pastoral office in order that the Word might be preached and the sacraments instituted in an orderly way and it is God who has given congregations the right to call a pastor to carry out this work in their midst and on their behalf. The rite of ordination is administered, according to the Church’s usual order, by those so authorized for such men whom the Church has determined to be ready and prepared to enter the office of the holy ministry and who have received a regular call to minister in the Church. In other words, if a man has not been regularly called to be a pastor in the Church, he cannot be ordained.


As for Apostolic Succession, it's the claim that an ecclesiatical leader's authority derives from episcopal consecration of bishop to bishop in an unbroken line from the apostles on down. Some churches historically have ordered their ministry according to this theory, however the LCMS (and most other Lutheran bodies) does not now nor has it ever recognized this practice as divinely mandated, or required for the well-being of the church's ministry.


While many Lutheran church bodies do have bishops, some do not. The LCMS does have eccesiastical leaders, but they are called "district presidents" and the "synodical president" rather than "bishops" or a "presiding bishop". Their positions are mostly administrative as far as the operation of the organization of the Church is concerned. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod is a ministerial church body and the polity is congregational. Although one could use the term "bishop", which means "overseer", it is not a title used in the LCMS.




(Some of the answers are based on definitions obtained from www.lcms.org (http://www.lcms.org/))

[revjpw]

the apostolic succession thing was one of the BIG reasons I left the episcopal church...

But now that the ELCA is in full communion with the Episcopal Church, they too have to follow Apostolic Succession. All of the bishops consecrated in the ELCA from now on must be installed by an Episcopalian bishop in order to be "in succession." So right now, the ELCA is really no different that the ECUSA.

[revjpw]

[QUOTE=RedneckLutheran]not all of us!...
www.wordalone.com[/QUOTE (http://www.wordalone.com[/QUOTE)]

Question...

What is WordAlone's position on the ordination of women?

[RedneckAnglican]

they do belive in the ordination of women...the national president is female...

But now that the ELCA is in full communion with the Episcopal Church, they too have to follow Apostolic Succession. All of the bishops consecrated in the ELCA from now on must be installed by an Episcopalian bishop in order to be "in succession." So right now, the ELCA is really no different that the ECUSA.

not exactly...because of folks like word alone the ELCA is letting people get ordianed under what is being called "unusual circumstances"...this places them outside of the "Historic Episcopate"...by allowing them to be consecrated by regular clergy without having to go to a "Bishop"...

[IowaLutheran]

not exactly...because of folks like word alone the ELCA is letting people get ordianed under what is being called "unusual circumstances"...this places them outside of the "Historic Episcopate"...by allowing them to be consecrated by regular clergy without having to go to a "Bishop"...

Also, the ELCA continues to allow lay people to preside over the sacraments. Our synod has two lay AiMS (Associates in Ministry) who preside over rural congregations without a pastor. Anglican churches do not allow this.

[revjpw]

they do belive in the ordination of women...the national president is female...

Also, the ELCA continues to allow lay people to preside over the sacraments. Our synod has two lay AiMS (Associates in Ministry) who preside over rural congregations without a pastor. Anglican churches do not allow this.


:sigh: :(
I'll be good and keep my mouth shut.

[pastel]

oooohhhh.... :eek:

[SPALATIN]

:sigh: :(
I'll be good and keep my mouth shut.

Why ruin a perfectly good record now?;)

[CrossWiseMag]

Why let rev have all the fun?

Doesn't it seem that apostolic succession is a strange "hill to die on?" Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems that the Word Alone folks have come out ardently against this idea of apostolic succession in the Lutheran church -- while at the same time, they are willing to encourage the ordination of women.

All this, despite the fact that the Lutheran confessions don't find anything inherently wrong with apostolic succession. The reformers admitted they'd like to keep it -- if it were possible without compromising the Gospel. Of course, that's not how it worked out, but that doesn't mean apostolic succession, in itself, is bad.

To fight tooth and nail against apostolic succession, then to capitulate on women's ordination, seems to me to be a mis-ordering of priorities.

[revjpw]

they do belive in the ordination of women...the national president is female...

I am reminded of James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

For WordAlone to claim that they want to "Renew the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) so that it is grounded in God's Word and the Lutheran confessions, and truly centered on making disciples of Jesus Christ of all nations," and then to slip on this one point... well, they have kinda contradicted themsleves here.

(Happy, Scott??;) )

[SemStudent08]

Doesn't it seem that apostolic succession is a strange "hill to die on?"

I agree, but for an entirely different reason. Personally, I could care less about apostolic succession. I understand the argument made concerning "priesthood of all believers" and I agree with it. However, I also understand that the office of Bishop is shaped by the person who holds it. Even before CCM there were Bishops within the ELCA who felt as though their office was somehow "greater" than that of pastors and the lay priesthood, and there were plenty of others (in fact, the majority in my opinion) who did not take that stance and understood the entire priesthood as communal servanthood with different ministerial emphsis. And I rather suspect that is how things will continue to be even now. One other thing that makes me not care too awful much about apostolic succession is that the idea of it is so ludicrous that I can't take it seriously. Historically, apostolic succession has no leg to stand on, one simply cannot trace the line back that far and not find it broken in several places. So I guess its just hard for me to get too worked up about something so preposterous. If it means one of the people who takes part in the laying on of hands at my ordination is a Bishop, thats ok with me, I have several friends who are Bishops and who I probably would have asked anyway...

Some of you may be offended by my blase attitude about this and for that I am sorry, but I cannot really see how this either detracts from or emphasizes the Cross or our Salvation through Jesus Christ.

[SPALATIN]

I am reminded of James 2:10, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

For WordAlone to claim that they want to "Renew the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) so that it is grounded in God's Word and the Lutheran confessions, and truly centered on making disciples of Jesus Christ of all nations," and then to slip on this one point... well, they have kinda contradicted themsleves here.

(Happy, Scott??;) )

Now that's the Rev we all love and know. :D

[KagomeShuko]

ELCA got its bishops in the last few years and really only did it to please the Episcopalians.

:scratch: Ever since I was growing up in the Lutheran church, I remember calling the overseer (aka, the guy in Houston) of the synod region a Bishop.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Qoheleth]

All this, despite the fact that the Lutheran confessions don't find anything inherently wrong with apostolic succession. The reformers admitted they'd like to keep it -- if it were possible without compromising the Gospel. Of course, that's not how it worked out, but that doesn't mean apostolic succession, in itself, is bad.


Spot on.

The Confessions describe and advocate the same structure and use of the Office of Bishop as being collegial and mirrors the Eastern Orthodox.

Q