The Coptic Creed

[domi]

Here's The Coptic Creed..

Introduction To The Creed:

We honour you O' Mother of True Light and glorify you O holy virgin mother of God, for you gave birth to the saviour of the world who came and saved our souls, Glory be to you Our Master and King Jesus Christ, Pride of the Apostles, crown of the martyrs, joy of the righteous, steadiness of the churches remission of sins. We preach the Holy Trinity the one divinity whom we worship and honour, Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord Bless us. Amen.


~ The Coptic Orthodox Creed ~

We believe in one God, God the Father, the Pantocrator, Who created heaven and earth, and all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages; Light from Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation He came down from Heaven; and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Man. For our sake, He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. And on the third day He rose from the dead, in fulfillment of the Scriptures; He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He is coming again in His glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church, And we confess one baptism for the remission of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age.

Amen

I was talking about it today with Erini and i figured that most of us here are coptic and it would be cool to have it here for easy acess..but then again probly everyone but me has it memorized..but just in case...here it is.

[Xpycoctomos]

Except for the Intro part, that's just like ours, except you have "Pantocrator" in the first part, but we believe that too and it is basically affirmed by the line we hold in common "created or heaven and earth, all things visible and invisible."

Cool.

Is the "Yes" in the clause about the Holy Spirit included in the main version of the Coptic Creed? I like it, it's kind of emphatic. Does anyone know why that is part of it? Was there someone who started some movement claiming that one shoudl not believe in the Holy Spirit and therefore the Coptic Church decided to add that word to make it more emphatic that that was part of the essential beliefs of the Orthodox Church? Just curious.

John

[domi]

Oooooooo man i know that erini told me that today. It had something to do with some messed up coptic or mabye it's cathlics who thought that God was bellow the holy spirt or something or the other way aroud or something and that's why it's there..i dunno ask erini...erini i need u...but i know it's something like that

[erinipassi]

Hi John and Domi,



LOL Domi the Holy Spirit is not below God or that God is below the Holy Spirit. Three persons in One, means the Trinity is showing different aspect (Hypostasis) of God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal and describes different aspects of the ONE God. What Domi means is that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. And that was what I was explaining to her.



Yes John, there was a major Heresy about the Holy Spirit and that was why it was included in the creed. “The first ecumenical council of Nicea took place in June 325 A.D. because the Libyan priest Arius denied the divinity of Christ; this heresy was rejected by the council. The second council, that of Constantinople, was held in 381 A.D., to discuss the heresy of Bishop Macedonius of Constantinople who did not believe in the divinity of the Holy Spirit.” (http://www.copticchurch.org/English_spiritual_articles/CopticOrthodoxChurch.htm (http://www.copticchurch.org/English_spiritual_articles/CopticOrthodoxChurch.htm))



Allow me to explain the trinity, although I know you know what the trinity is, so that it will make sense to you what was the Heresy and why it was included in the creed. This explanation is from a book called called “The Meaning of the Holy Trinity” by Fr. Abraam Sleman. http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/The%20Meanining%20of%20Holy%20Trinity%20_the%20English%20book_.pdf (http://www.copticchurch.org/Texts/Spirituals/The%20Meanining%20of%20Holy%20Trinity%20_the%20English%20book_.pdf)





I’m going to paste extracts from it and paraphrase it a bit to make it as simple as possible. This extract was already posted in the thread called Bible questions.



The parable of “The True Vine” is a great analogy of the Holy Trinity. When our Lord Jesus Christ said, "I am the true vine” (John 15:1)



The first thing that comes to mind when you thing about the existence of the vine tree, or any tree in general, is the root of the tree. It is for the tree its origin and invisible being



The root of the tree is the “source of the tree’s life”. To sum up, there is no doubt that the existence of the true vine tree is originated from its root.



The branches of the tree can be called “the image” of the tree or the invisible being.

Christ is the true vine having the eternal divine origin. He is begotten from God the Father. The Lord Jesus said, “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world” (John 16:28).”

To say that the vine tree is there and know its qualities, you need another thing in addition to its root. The tree should have what reveals itself. You need to

see “the branch” that carries the leaves and the fruit. Or in other words, you need to see “the image” of the tree. When you see this, you can say I see the tree; it is there

and I know its qualities.



¨ The branch (the image) is one with the root of the vine tree. Also, the Son is one with His Father. The Lord Jesus Christ said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).



¨ The branch (the image) of the vine tree, declares its real existence and its nature. We can say the tree is there because we see its branch (image) and we know the qualities of the tree from its branch (image) that carries the leaves and the fruits.



Every tree the Lord has planted has its own kind of life. This life proceeds from the root to its branch (image) and gives the tree its unique shape with a unique taste of

its fruits.



So to sum it up, the analogy of the vine tree which is the invisible root (Father), the branches (Son) and Fruits (Holy Spirit). Three aspects of the tree of the ONE Tree. Equally three aspects (Hypostasis) of the One God.



So for example, you will see a different version of the creed in other Christian denominations where they add in the section of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. This is incorrect. In the Original Creed, the Holy Spirit proceeds only from the Father. Why? Because first of all Jesus mentions this, “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.” (John 15: 26)



And Secondly, as was described in the analogy, since the Father is the “source” as the root is the source, it doesn’t make Christ “less” than the Father. So for example the root (Father) is not higher in status than the branch (Son) nor the branch higher in status than the fruits (Holy Spirit). They are all one of the same tree but describe different aspect of the tree. The root being the source, doesn’t make it higher in status than the branch.



Also I wanted to mention that prayer which is called “Introduction to the Creed” isn’t part of the creed and is not said in the Devine Liturgy. The prayer called “Introduction to the Creed” is a prayer that is part of a prayer book called the Agbia. It’s a prayer book of hours. Meaning it has prayers for the morning, third, sixth, ninth hour, etc.



I hope this explained things and I am more than happy to clarify.
love and blessings
erini

[Xpycoctomos]

Erini,

I loved your explanations. I don't know if you realize, but your explanation would have worked excellently in any Eastern Orthodox Site. We also, as you probably know, do not have "who proceeds form the Father and the Son" as the Catholic Church does (actually there is a whole thread on this.... actually two... right now in TAW). We call this "and the son" the Filioque clause which was added in the West but never the East. So I understood perfectly what you were talking about the Father alone being the Source as well as the Holy spirit only proceeding THROUGH the Son, but never FROM him. It seems to me that our Trinitarian doctrine is perfectly in line, in understanding and even in wording.

My question earlier was not about the fact that you talk about the Holy Spirit in the Creed (It would be incomplete to onluy talk about the Father and the Son) but I noticed that you and I have the same Creed, except for two words "pantocrator" (which is a non issue because, we beleive that too by the very fact we profess that he "created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible") and the word "Yes" before "I believe in the Holy Spirit". The word "Yes" obviously is not an issue at all, but rather, just a point of curiosity for me. We don't have the "Yes" and I noticed that you don't put "yes" before the part that talks about Christ or the Father. So, I was wondering if the "Yes" (nothing else) was added in response to any heresies regarding the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you understood my question and that's what you were answering but it seemed rather that you understood my question to be asking why you included the WHOLE CLAUSE about the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, sorry for my confusing posts. Thanks for your time Erini. John

[Xpycoctomos]

By the way, Ireally liked your tree example in demonstrating our common understanding of the Trinity. I also like the one about the Sun being God the Father, the heat being the Spirit and the Light being the Son. They all eternally coexist. There is not a time the sun existed with out giving off light and heat. But as the Sun is the source, it is not dependant on the heat and light unlike the heat and light who ARE dependant on the Sun from whence they get their origin. In the end, all analogies have their weak points, for nothing can perfectly describe the Trinity, but analogies (when not taken to far) can help a lot.

John

[domi]

By the way, Ireally liked your tree example in demonstrating our common understanding of the Trinity. I also like the one about the Sun being God the Father, the heat being the Spirit and the Light being the Son. They all eternally coexist. There is not a time the sun existed with out giving off light and heat. But as the Sun is the source, it is not dependant on the heat and light unlike the heat and light who ARE dependant on the Sun from whence they get their origin. In the end, all analogies have their weak points, for nothing can perfectly describe the Trinity, but analogies (when not taken to far) can help a lot.

John

I like the vine one... I hate the one about the Sun and stuff....I know alot of those...Hany used like 40 of them with me...here's some more



Think about some of the metaphores I mentioned: A father being a husband and a son, all in one. The sun: its physical presence, radiating heat, and rays of light, all in one.

I think the most understandable way is to think of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and God as all manifestations of God in different places. God: God residing in Heaven, Jesus Christ: God coming down to Earth for our salvation, Holy Spirit: God remaining with us to protect us, guide us, and comfort us in times of distress.

[domi]

That's what i ment to say...what erini said... I was just a little tired lol. I could have done it... ;)

Like i said Erini could give u a much better explination then i can lol.

Thanks sis.

-Domi

[erinipassi]

Hi John,

LOL sorry, I got side tracked and forgot to explain to you the “Pantocrator” and the “Yes, We believe” in the section of the Holy Spirit.

The word Pantocrator is originally Greek and it means the Lord Almighty. Now when St. Athanasius wrote the Creed and it was accepted by the first Council of Nicea in 325 AD, it was written in Greek and Coptic and contained the word Pantocrator. So when you translated it to English, it became “the Almighty”. Many Greek words are also Coptic words because the Coptic alphabet contains 25 Greek letters and 7 Demotic (Hieroglyphics) letters.

As to the “Yes, We believe in the Holy Spirit”. Because of the Macedonius Heresy mentioned above, the “Yes” is an emphasis to the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Just like the example of the vine tree analogy given above, the Holy Spirit is an important aspect of God the Almighty. So to emphasise the importance that it is part of the Trinity, the word “Yes” is originally included in the creed itself.

St. Athanasius later became the 20th Patriarch of the Coptic Orthodox Church after St. Mark. The Coptic Church has not changed the creed that was handed down by St. Athansius since he wrote it. But, the English translation of the Creed posted by Domi which is used by the Coptic Orthodox Church in the USA simplified few words. So I will post the exact translation from Coptic below:

Truly, we believe in One God, God the Father Almighty (Pantocrator), Who created Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.

We believe in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not created, of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered, and was buried. And on the third day, He rose from the dead, according to the Scriptures, ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of His Father; and He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose Kingdom shall have no end.

Yes, we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-Giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the father is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets.

And we believe in one holy, universal, and apostolic church. We confess one baptism for the remission if sins. We look for the Resurrection of the dead and the life of the coming age. Amen.

The word “Truly” may not seem important but it creates emphasis on the fact that we believe in ONE God since the original Heresy was saying that the Trinity is composed of three unrelated people. So the word “Truly” puts emphasis on the fact that Trinity is talking about the ONE God.

You will notice that in the creed the word “we believe” rather than “I believe”. This is also important because a Church is not made up of one person alone, but a group of people who proclaim their faith. Reciting the Creed in the Coptic Devine Liturgy is usually after the Gospel is read and is the response for hearing the word of God. The Creed is also an introduction to the Eucharistic prayers. So, believers when they all stand to recite the Creed and say “we believe”, it reminds them that they are all united in the body of Christ.

The Last part which I highlighted, “We look for the Resurrection of the dead”, this sentence has a different wording in some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, I notice they have this instead: “I expect the resurrection of the dead.” Although, these slightly different wording I believe is related to translating from Greek to English and although its not a problem at all, but at the same time, the choice of certain word has an important meaning. In the original Greek and Coptic text it actually says, “look for the Resurrection of the dead”. The meaning of this sentence is that every believer looks “forward to” the eternal life and the life that is not of this world. So then it reminds the believer to make it their “goal” to look forward to the heavenly life instead of the earthly life.

Sorry about the lengthy post. I seem to give out too much detail LOL. ;)



Love and blessings
erini

[Globalnomad]

Not in the least, it was very interesting, thanks! Glad to see that our Catholic Creed is also identical EXCEPT for that one pesky word, the Filioque, which I understand our theologians are hard at work on. I notice, by the way, that the first time you wrote it down, you wrote "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church", the second time you wrote "One, Holy, Universal and Apostolic". I kind of wish you kept the word Catholic. No use giving us Catholics the "monopoly" of the word, when eveyone knows (or should!) that Catholic means "universal" and it is NOT just an attribute of the Roman Church... (I hope there are no strict Catholics reading this...)

A very blessed Pascha week to you!

[CopticGirl]

Not in the least, it was very interesting, thanks! Glad to see that our Catholic Creed is also identical EXCEPT for that one pesky word, the Filioque, which I understand our theologians are hard at work on. I notice, by the way, that the first time you wrote it down, you wrote "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church", the second time you wrote "One, Holy, Universal and Apostolic". I kind of wish you kept the word Catholic. No use giving us Catholics the "monopoly" of the word, when eveyone knows (or should!) that Catholic means "universal" and it is NOT just an attribute of the Roman Church... (I hope there are no strict Catholics reading this...)




My guess is the the difference between catholic/universal is just a matter of the translation. I mean every translation says the same thing, but then there are always slight differences with a word or two--but of course never changing the meaning.Like for example one version I have says, "Very God of Very God, begotten, not made...." whereas the other one says, "True God of True God, begotten, not made...".

When I was little and I used to recite the Creed, I never understood why we believed in the "Catholic" church even though we are Orthodox!!! ;)

God Bless,
Elizabeth

[domi]

I'm so confused...:help:

[Rilian]

No use giving us Catholics the "monopoly" of the word, when eveyone knows (or should!) that Catholic means "universal" and it is NOT just an attribute of the Roman Church... (I hope there are no strict Catholics reading this...)

Universal is a valid way of describing the word catholic, but the Greek roots - "cata" (totality) and "hole" (whole) actually strictly speaking connote completeness or wholeness. St. Ignatius of Antioch said in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans "where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church", meaning where a single bishop along with the Eucharist is, the completeness of the church is there also. The second level of this wholeness becomes then all of the bishops in communion. I hope I didn't say anything out of line with Coptic thinking there.

domi, what in particular are you getting confused about?

[domi]

domi, what in particular are you getting confused about?

Honestly lol i can't even be pacient enough to read the whole 4poats that i missed lol. Let u try to do that and i'll tell u when i finsih. lol.:hug: