Please Explain the Saturday Resurrection!

[AnthonyForChrist]

I'm curious as to this theory. I know a little bit about it, understanding the notion of the Jewish day, but I'm wondering that if Jesus was resurrected Saturday evening, how does one justify the claim of a Saturday resurrection while taking note of the following verses:

Mark 16:2 "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

Luke 24:1 "Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them."

If someone could be so gracious as to give me a comprehensive outline or synopsis of the evidence to support a Saturday resurrection, that would be appreciated. If Jesus was resurrected after the Sabbath on Saturday, the implications are pretty great, strengthening the consistency of the "types and shadows" of the Tenach and the events occurring in the New Testament.

[Henaynei]

I'm curious as to this theory. I know a little bit about it, understanding the notion of the Jewish day, but I'm wondering that if Jesus was resurrected Saturday evening, how does one justify the claim of a Saturday resurrection while taking note of the following verses:

Mark 16:2 "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."

Luke 24:1 "Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them."

If someone could be so gracious as to give me a comprehensive outline or synopsis of the evidence to support a Saturday resurrection, that would be appreciated. If Jesus was resurrected after the Sabbath on Saturday, the implications are pretty great, strengthening the consistency of the "types and shadows" of the Tenach and the events occurring in the New Testament.

LOL - there IS no evidence for a Saturday resurrection!!

The Jewish day begins and ends at sunset - anytime after sunset on Saturday IS Sunday, the first day of the week. Yeshua rose sometime after the Sabbath had ended with the setting of the sun Satruday evening. ANYTIME after sunset Saturday IS Sunday.

That help at all?

[blessed2]

I doubt I'll be much help but I'll attempt to give you at least what I can.
Mark 16:2 "And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun."
1st the first day of the week.
Sabbath is from fri sunset til Sat sunset.
So the first day so to speak would be the evening of saturday through sunset Sunday..and the day being first light of the day on Sunday.
They went to the tomb to do the preparing of the body as it couldn't be performed during Sabbath and surely not in the night so they went as soon as it was possible to do so and yet the body was not there.
That was a messy explanation, I know. Sorry.

[AnthonyForChrist]

LOL - there IS no evidence for a Saturday resurrection!!

The Jewish day begins and ends at sunset - anytime after sunset on Saturday IS Sunday, the first day of the week. Yeshua rose sometime after the Sabbath had ended with the setting of the sun Satruday evening. ANYTIME after sunset Saturday IS Sunday.

That help at all?

I meant Saturday when looking from a Gregorian calendar. I know it would be Sunday as a Jewish day, but Saturday to us Gentiles. Okay. The "Saturday" view holds that Jesus was resurrected on Saturday night (the beginning of the "first day," or the Jewish Sunday), while the traditional Christian view holds that Christ was resurrected Sunday morning (which would still be Sunday according to Jewish time). How does one justify the former view as opposed to the traditional latter?

[Henaynei]

As I recall the scripture says He rose "early on the first day." IF you are of a Jewish mind - that would mean sometime shortly after Sunset. IF you are of a gentile mind, having never known that the day as kept by the writers of the gospels started at sunset (that being a totally foreign idea to you) then you would teach and it would be passed down in teaching to other non-Jews that "early on the first day" would logically have to mean in the morning.

The traditional Christian view is based on millenia of having been separated from the culture and calendar of the writers of the gospels.

While this is a wonderfully fun thing to wrap one's mind around there is little salvific significance between Him rising at 9pm or 9am ;)

[simchat_torah]

LOL - there IS no evidence for a Saturday resurrection!!
Acutally, Henaynei, there is evidence... whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Some argue that the Greek implies "between the weeks", not "on the first day of the week". In otherwords, in the twilight hours between Shabbat and the High Holy Shabbat he was ressurected.

Of course, there is no single interpretation in Messianic Judaism, this is only one of many offered. However, to declare:
1) There is no evidence
or
2) It is not a messianic idea

would be quite incorrect. You may argue that you don't accept the evidence, or the form of Messianic Judaism you practice doesn't interpret it that way, but the two statements above are simply incorrect.


shalom,
yafet.

[Hix]

Thats interesting Yafet, that would make the christian excuse of sunday worship becuase "its the day Yeshua ressurected", pointless.

Todah for explaining achi
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

[Henaynei]

Acutally, Henaynei, there is evidence... whether you believe it or not is up to you.

Some argue that the Greek implies "between the weeks", not "on the first day of the week". In otherwords, in the twilight hours between Shabbat and the High Holy Shabbat he was ressurected.

Of course, there is no single interpretation in Messianic Judaism, this is only one of many offered. However, to declare:
1) There is no evidence
or
2) It is not a messianic idea

would be quite incorrect. You may argue that you don't accept the evidence, or the form of Messianic Judaism you practice doesn't interpret it that way, but the two statements above are simply incorrect.


shalom,
yafet.
Yafet - please explain.....

Shabbat I know.....but what was the High Holy Shabbat?? Surely not HaBikkurim - which was Sunday.....

The Greek may say something that can be translated "between the weeks" but, remembering at issue is a totaly none greek concept and that the greek translations we recognize could, and some were, manipulated by translator doctrine...... there is no "between the week" for Judaism, once one day is completed the next day begins. So, unless we want to get into metaphysical philosophical meanderings I don't understand the suggestion of "between the weeks" in this context either.

b'Shalom v'Boker Tov
Henaynei

[WildCelt]

This Rabbi (for whom I have great respect) has a pretty decent chronology:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/weekly-parashah/message/217

As a side note, I think his Parashah teachings are really good, so I would encourage everyone to check them out.

[simchat_torah]

Surely not HaBikkurim - which was Sunday.....
and...The Greek may say something that can be translated "between the weeks" but, remembering at issue is a totaly none greek concept and that the greek translations we recognize could, and some were, manipulated by translator doctrine

IF I remember correctly, it literally states "between the weeks" in Greek because the concept of "between the twilights" was lacking in Greek theology and language. Essentially, it was between the two Sabbaths, HaBikkurim and the weekly Sabbath.

In other words, its not a play on translational preference, but how you would interpret the literal Greek rendering "between the weeks". What does that mean in a Hebraic mind?

You see, according to the halacha of the day, when two Sabbaths fell against one another (a high holy sabbath and a weekly sabbath) there would be a short ammount of time between the two in which to do work needed to prepare for the next day.... 'between the twilights'. Since the Greek language was lacking greatly, 'between the weeks' was used as a substitute. And also, according to halacha, this time (a few hours typically) was taken away from the first shabbat to prepare for the second, which would make the ressurection actually land during the weekly shabbat.

But again, I'm not saying whether I fully accept this interpretation of 'between the weeks', but it certainly does lend some credence.

Anywho...I'll find more on it a bit later, kinda busy at work right now. I'll try to come back to this when I have some free time.

shalom,
yafet

[simchat_torah]

Shalom WildCelt,

None of us can view those files because we are not a part of that yahoo group.

Mind copying and pasting the article into a post for us?

thanks,
-yafet

[WildCelt]

D'oh! Sorry about that.

Here it is:


Sh’eil’ot uT’shuv’ot
(Questions and Answers)
Ask Torah Teacher Ariel

(Note: all quotations are taken from the Complete
Jewish Bible, translation by David H. Stern, Jewish
New Testament Publications, Inc., unless otherwise
noted)

QUESTION 11:

Can you explain the 'sign of Jonah' in the gospels?
Surely Jesus wasn't buried for 3 days AND nights.

ANSWER:

First of all, take a look at this updated link on my
Pesach commentary site:

http://www.graftedin.com/WeeklyTorah/QuestionsAnswers/pesachchron.html

I believe that the sign of the prophet Yonah (Jonah),
given by Yeshua was referring to literal 24-hour
periods of time. Why should we seek another
interpretation when the plain sense makes good sense?
The following is a timetable that I have created,
suggesting that Yeshua was killed on Wednesday, Nisan
14 and resurrected on Shabbat, Nisan 17, fulfilling
three literal days (see sections with *** below). The
timetable starts at the beginning of "crucifixion
week" and ends with his resurrection:

Jn. 12:1 –Friday, Nisan 9. This trip from Ephraim
[ch.11:54], to Bethany [present verse], was more than
a "Sabbath's day" journey [Acts.1:12], thus
rabbinically forbidden by law; hence, Fridays
speculation. Mk. 11:1-11 –Saturday, Nisan 10
(traditionally recognized as "Palm Sunday")

Jn. 12:12 –Saturday, Nisan 10

Mk. 11:12 –Sunday, Nisan 11

Mk. 11:20 –Monday, Nisan 12

Mk. 14:17 –Tuesday, Nisan 13

Mk. 15:1 –Wednesday, Nisan 14
-(Mk. 15:25 -9:00 a.m. –Wednesday, Nisan 14)
-(Mk. 15:33 -12:00 p.m. Dies at 3:00 p.m., still on
cross –Wednesday, Nisan 14)
-(Mk. 15:42 -Preparation for a High Holy Day not
weekly Sabbath)

***In the grave 6:00 p.m. –Wednesday, Nisan 14 (Deut.
21:22,23)***
***In the grave (Matt. 27:62) –Thursday, Nisan 1***
***In the grave –Friday, Nisan 16....until 5:59.59
p.m.***
***Out of the grave –Saturday, Nisan 17....6:00.00
p.m.***

Matt. 28:1 -Saturday/Sunday (See comments below)

Jn. 20:1 -Saturday/Sunday: Dark part of Saturday
evening, also known in Judaism as the "going out of
the Sabbath".

Mk. 16:9 –Sunday. *Note: vv. 9-20 are not found in the
two oldest manuscripts.


Was Yeshua Resurrected On Sunday Morning?
(With acknowledged assistance from TNN)

"Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other
Mary came to look at the grave…And the angel answered
and said to the women, ‘Do not be afraid; for I know
that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified.
He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said.
Come, see the place where He was lying’" (Matthew
28:1, 5-6, NASU).

If we were to examine a surface reading of this text
in English, it would appear as if Messiah Yeshua
really had been resurrected on Sunday morning, and
perhaps Christians have a legitimate case to not honor
Shabbat and replace it with Sunday. However, one
meaning of the Greek verb epiphosko, translated as
"dawn toward," is "to draw near, as the…Sabbath which
began in the evening." It can be legitimately
understood that the Marys left to go to the tomb of
Yeshua late on the Sabbath, as the first day began to
draw near. This is understood by the 1901 American
Standard Version translation of Matthew 28:1:

"Now late on the sabbath day, as it began to dawn
toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene
and the other Mary to see the sepulcher."

The Messianic Renewed Covenant properly renders
Matthew 28:1 with the consideration that the Marys
left for the tomb of Yeshua after the Sabbath as the
first of the week began to come upon them:

"Now late on the Shabbat, as it began to draw toward
the first of the week, Miriam of Magdala and the other
Miriam went to look at the grave."

It is important to understand that Biblically the
first day of the week does not begin at midnight on
Sunday, but on Saturday evening. The precedent for a
new day beginning in the evening and then ending in
the evening is established in Genesis chapter 1. We
are told, "God called the light: ‘Day,’ and to the
darkness He called: ‘Night.’ And there was evening and
there was morning, one day" (vs. 5). J.H. Hertz
comments, "The day, according the Scriptural reckoning
of time, begins with the preceding evening." When Mary
and Mary Magdalene embarked toward the tomb of Yeshua,
as the "first day" began to draw near, it was on what
we would consider Saturday evening (we also readily
point out that the Ancient Greeks followed the
Biblical reckoning of time from sundown to sundown. To
them like the Israelites, the new day began in the
evening. It is the Romans that brought us the concept
of the new day beginning at 12:00 AM in the middle of
the night).

What is more likely than a Friday crucifixion and
Sunday resurrection, which would not constitute three
days and three nights, is that Yeshua was crucified on
a Wednesday afternoon and then resurrected on Saturday
in the late afternoon or evening.

We are told that Messiah died in the afternoon in Luke
23:44: "And it was now about the sixth hour, and
darkness came over the whole land until the ninth
hour." The ninth hour in the Greek time reckoning here
is about 3:00 P.M. But what day was this on?

Consider that Wednesday afternoon to Thursday
afternoon is one day and one night. Thursday afternoon
to Friday afternoon is another day and another night.
Friday afternoon to Saturday afternoon is the third
day and third night. Consistent with how Yeshua said
He would be in the grave for three days and three
nights, and if a Wednesday to Saturday period of His
being in the grave is accurate, He was probably
resurrected sometime as the Sabbath began to close
during twilight.

Some disagree with this assessment because Mark 16:1-2
says "And when the Shabbat had elapsed, Miriam of
Magdala and Miriam the mother of Ya'akov, and Shlomit,
brought spices so they might come and anoint Him. And
very early on the first of the week, they came to the
tomb, when the sun had risen"

It attested here from the text that the empty tomb of
Yeshua was discovered on Sunday morning. The Greek
verb "had arisen," anatello, means to "spring up as
the sun." However, it is also clear that the Mary’s
left to go to the sepulcher as the first day began to
epiphosko or draw near, sometime near the end of
Shabbat on late Saturday afternoon or early evening,
as the day Biblically begins in the evening. But this
does not necessarily prove a "Sunday morning
resurrection." Zodhiates states,

"In the evening of the Sabbath when the Jewish day was
drawing on towards the first day of the week, Mary
Magdalene and the other Mary went (or better, set
out). It does not appear that they actually came at
this time to visit the sepulcher, perhaps being
delayed by the great earthquake (Matt. 28:2) which
preceded our Lord’s resurrection."

The Scripture text is clear that it was the intent of
the Marys to leave at the departure of the Sabbath on
Saturday evening to the tomb of Yeshua and anoint His
body with spices per the stench of decay. However,
Matthew 28:2 says "And behold, a great earthquake had
occurred, for an angel of the Lord came down from
Heaven and approached and rolled away the stone and
sat upon it." This occurred "late on the sabbath day"
(Matthew 28:1, American Standard Version), just as the
Marys intended to set out toward the tomb. As
Zodhiates suggests, perhaps after the earthquake
occurred, they decided to wait to go to the tomb at
sunrise.

However, simply because the Marys found the empty tomb
at sunrise on Sunday, this does not give us a
legitimate reason to abrogate the commands of Shabbat,
which Messiah honored.

We believe that the Scriptural evidence is in favor of
a late Saturday afternoon or early evening
resurrection of Yeshua and that according to Matthew
28:1 the Marys intended to go to His tomb and anoint
His body with the spices and perfume at the end of
Shabbat on Saturday. But, because of the power of His
resurrection and the earthquake that occurred, they
must have thought it better and safer to go when there
was daylight.


Did the Early Believers Meet On Sunday?

Although we believe that Scripture is clear that
Messiah upheld the Sabbath and was not resurrected on
"Sunday morning," there are those who tell us that His
early followers did not honor the Shabbat and instead
replaced it by assembling on the first day.

This is usually based on verses such as Acts 20:7a
which says "And on the first of the week, when we were
gathered together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians
16:2 Paul writes "On the first of the week, let each
one of you put beside something and store it up, as he
may prosper, so that no collections be made when I
come."

When examining these two verses, it may seem to some
that the early Believers did gather on the first day
of the week or Sunday. But even if they did assemble
on Sunday, there is no indication that they did not
likewise observe Shabbat. However, we believe that
when placed in its correct historical and cultural
context, the idea that the Believers assembling on
"the first of the week" here being what would later
become the Christian Sunday is misguided.

Acts 20:7 is translated in the Jewish New Testament as
"On Motza’ei Shabbat, when we were gathered to break
bread, Sha’ul addressed them. Since he was going to
leave the next day, he kept talking until midnight."

Stern comments that "Motza’ei Shabbat in Hebrew means
‘departure of the Sabbath’ and refers to Saturday
night….It would be natural for Jewish believers who
had rested on Shabbat with the rest of the Jewish
community to assemble afterwards to celebrate their
common faith in Yeshua the Messiah….A Saturday night
meeting would continue the God-oriented spirit of
Shabbat, rather than require the believers to shift
their concern from workaday matters, as would be the
case [if this were] Sunday night."

As established earlier, the new day Biblically begins
in the evening, so the first day of the week actually
begins on Saturday night. If this were speaking of
Sunday night, as many believe, then technically Acts
20:7 should have read that they were meeting "on the
second day of the week" as Paul, who was "intending to
depart the next day…extended his word until midnight."

But what about 1 Corinthians 16:2? "On the first of
the week, let each one of you put beside something and
store it up, as he may prosper, so that no collections
be made when I come." The JNT translates this with
Motza’ei Shabbat as well:

"Every week, on Motza’ei Shabbat, each of you should
set some money aside, according to his resources, and
save it up; so that when I come I won’t have to do
fundraising."

1 Corinthians 16:2 has absolutely nothing to do with
"Sunday church" as commonly believed. At the very
least, what it speaks of is people tithing their
financial resources to the local assembly. Because
engaging in commerce is prohibited on Shabbat, doing
this when the Sabbath was over was appropriate.

We do concede that if this is speaking of collection
for the local assembly, some of it may have occurred
on Sunday. But, this does not negate the importance of
Shabbat nor does it annul it as some believe. For Acts
2:46 tells us that the early Believers were meeting
together "Every day" (NIV).

--
R. Ariel b. Lyman
http://www.GraftedIn.com
http://www.HeartOfIsrael.org

[Toney]

The oft heard simple answer is, "Because the Catholic church changed it."

But it was more complicated than that. Unless I am mistaken, most ecclesiastical historians now agree that Sunday rather than Saturday as the "Christian Sabbath" evolved over a period of time, perhaps centuries. Some geographical areas observed both:

Sozomen (5th century) wrote, "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, book 7, chap. 19, Vol. II, p. 390.

Constantine established Sunday as a secular "day of rest" in the fourth century. The (Eastern) Council of Laodicea in 364 is most often cited as having "changed the day" although the Celtic Church was observing Saturday Sabbath well into the 12th century.

That Yeshua was crucified on a Wednesday and ressurected sometime after sundown on Saturday was discussed extensively in an MJ thread titled, High Day (http://www.christianforums.com.au/t111671).

[simchat_torah]

The oft heard simple answer is, "Because the Catholic church changed it."hehe... but where else would we find an easy target?

;)


just kidding.

[simchat_torah]

Question:

Let's pretend for a moment that we were able to define, with absolute assurance, that the Messiah rose again on Sunday (as opposed to Saturday). Where does the precedence come to change the Sabbath to Sunday?

Why not choose the day of the week he was born? Or the day of the week he died? Why would one arbitrarily choose the day he rose? Why not the day he ascended? Or the day he broke bread?

Where is the biblical precedence to change the Sabbath to this day?

a conundrum some might say ;)

Or, was the sabbath even intended to be changed at all?

Just some thoughts for our non-messianic readers.
-Yafet

[Toney]

Or, was the sabbath even intended to be changed at all?

-Yafet

A profound thought!

The Church would argue that it held the authority to do so. I strongly disagree, but so what?

Whether from a pagan conspiracy or simply to punctuate a clear distinction between the two religions, i.e. "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord’s Day (Sunday) they shall especially honor, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ,"* it was wrong to have done so, IMO, but who am I?

* Catholic Church Council in Laodicea, 364AD, Canon 29.

I personally believe the anti-Semitism obvious in that quote evidences Christianity's greatest failing.

[Henaynei]

Essentially, it was between the two Sabbaths, HaBikkurim and the weekly Sabbath.

[snip]You see, according to the halacha of the day, when two Sabbaths fell against one another (a high holy sabbath and a weekly sabbath) there would be a short ammount of time between the two in which to do work needed to prepare for the next day.... 'between the twilights'.
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that HaBikkurim is NOT a Sabbath -- they are cutting and carrying and winnowing to bring the wave sheath to the temple - of course I could be wrong again...... (on friend's computer and can't do the searches tonight - please forgive my sloth)

[visionary]

Dr. Pinchas Lapide is the author of "The Resurrection of Jesus: A Jewish Perspective" and he wrote the following (pp. 114-115):

Quote:
Matthew puts [the resurrection] at night, right after the end of the Sabbath, but Mark and Luke in the early Easter Sunday morning. The obscure formulation of Matthew, which is awkward in Greek (28:1) "now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week (or: of the Sabbath)," or according to the Elberfeld translation, "Late on the Sabbath in the dawn of the first day of the week..." seems to be based on an idiom current in Mishnah Hebrew: Bemotzaei-Shabbat or le-ehad be-Shabbat which means literally: "At the end of the Sabbath in the light toward the first day...," but which, by means of a euphemism (light = night) intends to say nothing else but: "at the end of the Sabbath, in the night before Sunday."

Basic is the fact that the Sabbath since Genesis 1:5 begins on Friday evening and ends on the next evening just as each new day lasts "fom evening to evening" (lev. 23:32). Unfamiliarity with this Hebraism seems to have led to contradictory statements of time in the Gospels.

The dejection of the disciples since Good Friday speaks in any case in favor of a visit to the tomb as early as possible, i.e., at the beginning of the night which coincides with the end of the Sabbath as is testified by the retranslation into Hebrew of the passage which is so obscure in Greek.

[ContraMundum]

There is no such thing as a Saturday resurrection. There is only a "first day" resurrection, which may or may not have been on what we would now call "Saturday". It certainly occured after sunset on the sixth day. This is why the earliest recorded resurrection services in the church all occur after Sunset on what we now call Saturday evening, but they are, in fact, on the "first day" of the Jewish week.

[ContraMundum]

No ancient church ever "changed" the days of worship. We know that the early Christians met every day.

"Sunday worship" was initially intended to be according to the Jewish calendar, in other words, after Shabbat had finished. You might call it "first Day" worship. This could mean Saturday night in modern-speak. In fact, the Catholic Church still holds to Saturday night mass even today, as Saturday night is the first day of the week according to the Bible (yes, the Catholics actually know this, and the conspiracy theories are just rubbish). However, because modern Sunday is convenient, they meet then too.

The first churches to try to speak of Sunday being the "Christian Sabbath" were the Protestant Calvinist ones, not the Catholic Church. The Catholic church taught ansd still teaches that the sixth day of the week is the Sabbath.

Anyway- it's all a digression. A lot of people prefer the conspiracy theories about the evil early Church and it's ugly offspring the modern church rather than the obvious, time tested and authentic truth.

[ContraMundum]

The traditional Christian view is based on millenia of having been separated from the culture and calendar of the writers of the gospels.

Only if you misunderstand the traditional Christian viewpoint, and many Christians do. If one takes the time and effort to study properly the ancient church documents on this one would find that they are 100% in step with the "Jewish mind".

Christians should throw away modern books, I think.

[ContraMundum]

Question:

Let's pretend for a moment that we were able to define, with absolute assurance, that the Messiah rose again on Sunday (as opposed to Saturday). Where does the precedence come to change the Sabbath to Sunday?

Orthodox Christians, East and West, have never argued that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. It's a strawman, based on mis-interpretations and misunderstandings.

[TheRabbi]

As I recall the scripture says He rose "early on the first day." IF you are of a Jewish mind - that would mean sometime shortly after Sunset.

I'm of a Jewish mind and I would take it to mean sometime after halachic midnight. This would be the early hours of Sunday.

Friday night isn't called Early Shabbat. It's called Leil Shabbat. The next morning is Yom Shabbat.

Follow me? Saturday night is Leil Rishon. Only after Chatzot(halachic midnight) do we refer to it as the early hours of yom rishon.