Your view on birth control?

[PaladinGirl]

What is your view on birth control? Please vote and tell us in here or explain why you voted the way you did. :)

[PaladinGirl]

My view is that only Natural Family Planning is acceptable to Christians and only for grave reasons. I agree with the Roman Catholic teaching on this.

[<><]

Lust control - that is the issue God wants Christians to address.

[PaladinGirl]

Lust control - that is the issue God wants Christians to address.

Well, actually I was talking about birth control usage with married couples. Sorry, I should have made that clear to begin with. :o

[twistedsketch]

I believe that if you're going to practice birth control, the only acceptable ways are:

1. Natural family planning
2. Condoms (male or female)

Other methods may kill the unborn child if that isn't their direct purpose in the first place. IDUs are basically abortion devices. Even birth control pills may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterous, killing the baby.

As long as you're not killing the baby, intentionally or unintentionally, I don't believe it's a sin because I haven't found any passages that say it's a sin outright.

[jlujan69]

With the huge exception of abortion (the commonly accepted definition), all other forms are a matter of conscience.

[TwinCrier]

Why thumb your nose at what God calls a blessing? BC is only acceptable if you feel God's will is not sufficient for your family. I think too many Christians refuse a full quiver in exchange for the world view of prosperity.
http://av1611.faithweb.com/catalog.html

[PaladinGirl]

Why thumb your nose at what God calls a blessing? BC is only acceptable if you feel God's will is not sufficient for your family. I think too many Christians refuse a full quiver in exchange for the world view of prosperity.
http://av1611.faithweb.com/catalog.html

Good point. And that is why the Catholic Church teaches that you should only use NFP and only for grave reasons.

[Shane Roach]

Why thumb your nose at what God calls a blessing? BC is only acceptable if you feel God's will is not sufficient for your family. I think too many Christians refuse a full quiver in exchange for the world view of prosperity.
http://av1611.faithweb.com/catalog.html

Exactly how I feel. I am a little hessitant to answer the poll though. Frankly I am not sure if it is morally wrong or just a serious lack of faith.

I also would tend to think any method is acceptable even including abortion if the mother is in danger of losing her life or of serious harm. Strange to find myself on the "liberal" end of a discussion! I love the Fundy forum! Such a relief...

If anyone has something to tell me to help me get a more solid bearing on this issue, please share.

[St.Augustine]

I voted "No birth control method is acceptable for Christians." :)

[<><]

Well, actually I was talking about birth control usage with married couples. So was I.

[Sevryn45]

My opinion,

Using Birth control inside of Marriage is ok, outside of marriage you should not be having sex in the first place.

[PaladinGirl]

So was I.

Oh okay. I believe that it is fine within marriage but only Natural Family Planning (the basal temperature method) is acceptable and only for grave reasons such as serious financial difficulty.

[Shane Roach]

I voted "No birth control method is acceptable for Christians." :)

Just out of curiosity, is that a common belief among Calvanists? I am not even sure if I have ever seen a Calvinist church....

[St.Augustine]

Just out of curiosity, is that a common belief among Calvanists? I am not even sure if I have ever seen a Calvinist church....

There is no such thing as a "Calvinist church" and there is no official Calvinist position on birth control. Sorry if that does not answer your question but there is no real answer. :)

[AliceSOBEstudent]

I believe that all hormonal methods have the possibility of destroying a fertilized (but not implanted) egg. I believe that after conception you have baby w/ a soul, and therefore these methods can sometimes be causing abortion.


I do not believe in Natural Methods, unless they are used in conjunction with barrier methods during fertile periods- for we are not to deny our spouse.

I understand the idea behind forgoing all methods and accept what comes, and that we should trust in God's provision, but I know my husband I feel strongly about adopting children. Although for sentimental reasons I would like to conceive once, I would rather adopt as many children as I can then be giving birth to all the children I will have. For although God Will Provide, there is still an issue of having the time/energy to properly raise each child up in the faith, attend to devotions, etc. I don't think there is an infinite number of children mean to be in my life. And if I'm meant to have six children, why would they need to all be my own. Basically I don't believe that my BC practices children God brings into my life . Also with not using hormonal methods, there is fair room for error, and if it's God's will for me to carry more children He will see it done.

[pegatha]

Please vote and tell us in here or explain why you voted the way you did. :)
I voted that any method short of abortion is acceptable, because I honestly can't see anything in Scripture that would require me to think otherwise. Yes, children are a blessing. But it's also a blessing to have the means of ensuring that you only have as many children as you have the energy and money to do right by. (And by "money," I don't mean raising the children in a materialistic way; I mean not having to struggle to provide the basics.) I'm not against big families. I just don't see anything in the Bible that I can reasonably interpret as a general prohibition on birth control.

[PaladinGirl]

:eek: Wow! I'm honestly surprised to see so many Fundamentalists who actually support birth control! :eek: I figured you all was really conservative on this issue.

[BT]

I support barrier methods only. Once the sperm is on the road it's up to God to create life or make it miss. That's why we refuse the pill... because of it's aborto-facient properties.

[kidsminister]

I really struggle with the line of reasoning that birth control pills are an abortifacient, and therefore must be avoided.

There are SOME brands of birth control that act as abortifacients - but not all. When I got married, I asked my doctor specifically for a pill that would not potentially cause an abortion. The pill she gave me, as she explained to me (and I confirmed in the extensive research I did before I went to the doctor for a prescription), acts much in the same way as a condom: it creates a 'shield' of sorts that blocks the sperm from uniting with the egg.

For those of you who are of the "quiver full" mindset, I understand that this is not a good enough explanation. I agree to disagree with you ;) . I just wanted to point out that not all birth control pills are abortifacients!

[BT]

What kind/type do you use? I would be interested in doing some research of my own on pills that are not abortifacient (if they do truly exist). The understanding that I got (albeit slight) was that they all work in essentially the same manner. I would be interested in how a pill sets up a shield of sorts...

[pegatha]

"Progestin thickens the cervical mucus, hindering the movement of sperm." --Partial quote from a website on the topic. I'm not sure whether posting the link to the site itself violates any CF rules, so I recommend just Googling the phrase, "How do birth control pills work", in quotes, if you want to do some research on the topic.

[Shane Roach]

There is no such thing as a "Calvinist church" and there is no official Calvinist position on birth control. Sorry if that does not answer your question but there is no real answer. :)

Actually it answers me quite well, and thanks!:thumbsup:

[Shane Roach]

I believe that all hormonal methods have the possibility of destroying a fertilized (but not implanted) egg. I believe that after conception you have baby w/ a soul, and therefore these methods can sometimes be causing abortion.


I do not believe in Natural Methods, unless they are used in conjunction with barrier methods during fertile periods- for we are not to deny our spouse.

I understand the idea behind forgoing all methods and accept what comes, and that we should trust in God's provision, but I know my husband I feel strongly about adopting children. Although for sentimental reasons I would like to conceive once, I would rather adopt as many children as I can then be giving birth to all the children I will have. For although God Will Provide, there is still an issue of having the time/energy to properly raise each child up in the faith, attend to devotions, etc. I don't think there is an infinite number of children mean to be in my life. And if I'm meant to have six children, why would they need to all be my own. Basically I don't believe that my BC practices children God brings into my life . Also with not using hormonal methods, there is fair room for error, and if it's God's will for me to carry more children He will see it done.

Not witholding ones self in using the rhthm method is something I had never thought of before... Interesting.

It is a serious matter you bring up between resources and child rearing. Especially in our day, it seems it is easy to get overextended. Strange, because unless the entire nation was strapped, it seems to me in the not to recent past, people would find a way as far as children were concerned. I think perhaps nowadays people have too high a hurdle set for monetary security though, and don't realize that life can be such a blessing if one is surrounded by love, even if not financially secure, and also can be miserable even when one is financially secure.

I say all that, but yet a big reason I have never been married is I have such a hard time feeling secure enough financially sto start a family. I know I would be devestated if I had a family then lost my job sudenly, for example.

So... Just some thoughts. Nothing reallu doctrinal in my post at all, as far as I know.

[Shane Roach]

I voted that any method short of abortion is acceptable, because I honestly can't see anything in Scripture that would require me to think otherwise. Yes, children are a blessing. But it's also a blessing to have the means of ensuring that you only have as many children as you have the energy and money to do right by. (And by "money," I don't mean raising the children in a materialistic way; I mean not having to struggle to provide the basics.) I'm not against big families. I just don't see anything in the Bible that I can reasonably interpret as a general prohibition on birth control.

THe closest thing I can reaonably interpret as a general prohibition would be the idea that "women are saved in child birth." I actually even believe in abortion in cases of the mother's health being directly threatened though, and there are circumstances and then circumstances as far as birth control are concerned. I guess it just bothers me that all over the world, people are having children they cannot take care of, and yet here where there is plenty and peace, the trend seems to have fewer children. How is proper society supposed to spread if all children are being raised in cultures where obviously values have not been prioritized? The value for not having them seems usually to be something about money too... How much is enough, I don't know.

I say all this, and yet I have never even been married, in large part due to concerns about financial stability. I have family problems though, and other things that make me feel the way I do about being so carefull about if or when I might marry, and under what circumstances.

[AliceSOBEstudent]

"Progestin thickens the cervical mucus, hindering the movement of sperm." --Partial quote from a website on the topic. I'm not sure whether posting the link to the site itself violates any CF rules, so I recommend just Googling the phrase, "How do birth control pills work", in quotes, if you want to do some research on the topic.


Here is the next line from that same website....
"Progestin also prevents the uterus's lining from developing normally; so, if an egg were fertilized, implantation is unlikely."

In addition, most pills are combined with estrogen which works to prevent an egg being released.
So there are three different protections here. But if the first two fail- an egg is released and the sperm somehow get through the cervical lining and fertilize the egg...then there is the possibility that the pills third method (preventing implantation) would occur. To those who believe that life begins at the moment of fertilization/conception, this means that BC pills (and other hormonal methods) have the possibilty of ending a life.

[pegatha]

Here is the next line from that same website.... "Progestin also prevents the uterus's lining from developing normally; so, if an egg were fertilized, implantation is unlikely."

Yes, it does say that. But given that the other contraceptive effects kick in first, the risk that an egg would actually be fertilized seems so low that I personally wouldn't consider it a valid possibility. But if that still seemed too high a risk, the b/c pills could easily be used along with either condoms or spermicidal foam or pessaries. The latter methods all have higher failure rates on their own, but combined with the pill, they'd make conception all but impossible.

[FaithAlone]

There are SOME brands of birth control that act as abortifacients - but not all. When I got married, I asked my doctor specifically for a pill that would not potentially cause an abortion. The pill she gave me, as she explained to me (and I confirmed in the extensive research I did before I went to the doctor for a prescription), acts much in the same way as a condom: it creates a 'shield' of sorts that blocks the sperm from uniting with the egg.

From all of the research I've done there are no hormonal methods of birht control that don't have some chnace of being an abortifacient. I know that the chances are slim but it's still a chance. Also we really don't know how slim the chances are. It may happen pretty frequently since there's no way of knowing if the newly conceived child is aborted. If there were 1,000 people that you knew in a room and you had a gun with one bullet and were told to randomly kill someone, would you? I feel like barrier methods and the Fertility Awareness Method is the only acceptable thing for me.

[kidsminister]

What kind/type do you use? I would be interested in doing some research of my own on pills that are not abortifacient (if they do truly exist). The understanding that I got (albeit slight) was that they all work in essentially the same manner. I would be interested in how a pill sets up a shield of sorts...

I actually stopped using birth control pills...not because I thought they were wrong, but because they just made me really lethargic and depressed. I was taking Ortho Tri-Cyclen and then Nordette (when my new insurance co. wouldn't pay for the first, my doctor said the second was almost the same!).

[PaladinGirl]

I actually stopped using birth control pills...not because I thought they were wrong, but because they just made me really lethargic and depressed. I was taking Ortho Tri-Cyclen and then Nordette (when my new insurance co. wouldn't pay for the first, my doctor said the second was almost the same!).

I was on Depo and it made me gain a lot of weight plus it really worsened my already existing depression. I have since gone off of that. I also tried the birth control pill. Needless to say, it wasn't much help either. Regardless, I have gone off of all hormonal contraceptives because of the possibility of them being abortifacient. Personally, I don't care how small the possibility is, I don't want to risk killing a future child. And of course, I am now celibate and waiting for marriage. I also agree with the Catholic stance on all other birth control such as condoms, spermicides, and other barrier methods.

[kidsminister]

I don't really believe this is true, because my husband and I have been using Natural Family Planning for almost three years (since we decided that the pill had too many emotional side effects for me!) and have no kids, but here's a joke I heard once:

"What do you call couples who use Natural Family Planning?

Answer: Parents."

[PaladinGirl]

I don't really believe this is true, because my husband and I have been using Natural Family Planning for almost three years (since we decided that the pill had too many emotional side effects for me!) and have no kids, but here's a joke I heard once:

"What do you call couples who use Natural Family Planning?

Answer: Parents."

Actually, in answer to the joke, Natural Family Planning is very effective. I think I read once that it is something like 99% effective. :thumbsup:

[kidsminister]

Actually, in answer to the joke, Natural Family Planning is very effective. I think I read once that it is something like 99% effective. :thumbsup:

Yup! Like I said, three years and I still haven't had kids! The only drawback is the horrible monthly cramps (sorry it it's TMI, guys!). The pill was great for alleviating those!!

[PaladinGirl]

Yup! Like I said, three years and I still haven't had kids! The only drawback is the horrible monthly cramps (sorry it it's TMI, guys!). The pill was great for alleviating those!!

Hmmm, have you tried Midol or something like that? Also, according to my Home Remedies book here is some other tips:


Take a daily vitamin.
Cut down on the caffeine.
Abstain from alcohol.
Take a mineral bath.
Moderate exercise.
Don't abstain from your husband!

[kidsminister]

Hmmm, have you tried Midol or something like that? Also, according to my Home Remedies book here is some other tips:


Take a daily vitamin.
Cut down on the caffeine.
Abstain from alcohol.
Take a mineral bath.
Moderate exercise.
Don't abstain from your husband!


Alas...sometimes Midol or other pain relievers just don't cut it :cry: . Aleve and Tylenol Arthritis (650 mg of relief per tablet!!) at least make it tolerable.

I do most of the items on the list on a regular basis (other than taking a daily vitamin, much to my mom's chagrin!)...my husband and I DO choose mutually to abstain for those five days a month, because quite frankly, I am not up to it...and he is not really thrilled at the prospect during that time, either...

I just sometimes miss the good old days, when I took the pill and didn't even have to worry about pain relief - it was a nonissue, because there was no pain (and it only lasted 3 days!).

Incidentally, endometriosis and other causes of painful cramps is another reason why some doctors prescribe birth control pills. What do you all think about people taking it for NON-birth-control purposes? I know several women who have had them prescribed for those reasons (many of them unmarried and not sexually active!).

[twistedsketch]

I guess it just bothers me that all over the world, people are having children they cannot take care of, and yet here where there is plenty and peace, the trend seems to have fewer children. How is proper society supposed to spread if all children are being raised in cultures where obviously values have not been prioritized? The value for not having them seems usually to be something about money too... How much is enough, I don't know.

Michael Savage would agree with you there. :)

[AliceSOBEstudent]

Personally, I see absolutely no problem (morally) with taking hormonal BC if one is not sexually active.
I would definitely do everything else possible to avoid taking any hormones if I was sexually active.If felt that I absolutly needed to take these for serious medical reasons (dangerously heavy bleeding, debilitating pain from cramps)and was sexually active I would use multiple barrier measures (like condem plus diaphragm) to make the chances of an egg possibly getting fertilized as miniscule as possible. (But wearing two condoms at once, double layered, is NOT a good idea)

[Blessed be His Name]

BC is the unbloody form of abortion.

[twistedsketch]

I fail to see how you can murder someone who doesn't exist yet. Besides, God can easily work around a condom if He wants a child badly enough (not that it's my preference to use them). No latex sleeve can stand between Him and His purposes.

[Shane Roach]

Michael Savage would agree with you there. :)

I wish I had some idea who that was... :blush:

[pegatha]

Michael Savage is a radio talk show host and author, known for his strongly voiced conservative opinions, his outspoken criticism of other media personalities (such as Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly), his refusal to toady to either political party, and his somewhat pessimistic attitude about the current state of American culture and politics. He's the one who originally coined such phrases as "compassionate conservatism," "borders, language, culture" (a list of those American attributes that are under direct attack), and "liberalism is a mental disorder."

[Blessed be His Name]

I fail to see how you can murder someone who doesn't exist yet. Besides, God can easily work around a condom if He wants a child badly enough (not that it's my preference to use them). No latex sleeve can stand between Him and His purposes.
Nor can a huge metal vacuum if you want to look at it that way.

[PaladinGirl]

Alas...sometimes Midol or other pain relievers just don't cut it :cry: . Aleve and Tylenol Arthritis (650 mg of relief per tablet!!) at least make it tolerable.

I do most of the items on the list on a regular basis (other than taking a daily vitamin, much to my mom's chagrin!)...my husband and I DO choose mutually to abstain for those five days a month, because quite frankly, I am not up to it...and he is not really thrilled at the prospect during that time, either...

I just sometimes miss the good old days, when I took the pill and didn't even have to worry about pain relief - it was a nonissue, because there was no pain (and it only lasted 3 days!).

Incidentally, endometriosis and other causes of painful cramps is another reason why some doctors prescribe birth control pills. What do you all think about people taking it for NON-birth-control purposes? I know several women who have had them prescribed for those reasons (many of them unmarried and not sexually active!).

I have no idea. I'd have to see what the Church says about it before I could say anything. Have you asked your doctor if you could take some tylenol with codeine or something of that sort to alleviate the pain that you have? :confused:

[twistedsketch]

Nor can a huge metal vacuum if you want to look at it that way.
But that fails to address my first point, which is you can't murder someone who doesn't exist. A fertilized egg is someone who exists. Without that, you have no life, therefore you can't take a life.

[PaladinGirl]

But that fails to address my first point, which is you can't murder someone who doesn't exist. A fertilized egg is someone who exists. Without that, you have no life, therefore you can't take a life.

Yes, and if a fertilised egg is someone who exists (which it is), then what right do we have to use "birth control" methods that can murder that special someone? :scratch: :confused:

[pegatha]

Incidentally, endometriosis and other causes of painful cramps is another reason why some doctors prescribe birth control pills. What do you all think about people taking it for NON-birth-control purposes? I know several women who have had them prescribed for those reasons (many of them unmarried and not sexually active!).

There are plenty of medicines other than b/c that would cause serious birth defects or death to an unborn child, but no one would deny those medicines to a woman who isn't even sexually active. If b/c pills alleviate her suffering, and if there isn't a risk of conception/abortion, then I'd say go ahead. For that woman, the pills are a real blessing. I can't think of any Scriptural reason to deny them to her.

[twistedsketch]

Yes, and if a fertilised egg is someone who exists (which it is), then what right do we have to use "birth control" methods that can murder that special someone? :scratch: :confused:
We don't, that's why I only believe in condoms and natural family planning.

[Blessed be His Name]

I am not saying that this is the whole reason why birth control is sinful, but it is deffinitely something to think about. You now how people say that even children can often know if something is right or wrong because we naturally have something in us that tells us? Well, when I was about 11 my assistant pastor's daughter got a blood clot from taking birth control pills. When I heard that I was like, WHAT? They actually use BC and think it's okay. I always assumed that everyone who was a Christian believed it was wrong, but I had a rude awakening.

[twistedsketch]

Was that for hormonal problems or actual birth control?

[rebel_conservative]

we should not/can not take away the procreative aspect of sex. that is what secular society has done in the past 50 years, look where that has ended up??? sex is not just a physical act. it is emotional and spiritual. we should not follow our own desires or the way of the world. even if there is no unequivocal condemnation of birth control, there is certainly no Biblical support for using it. we should keep sex the way God intended, as part of a loving married life; an emotional, physical and spiritual pleasure that is open to conception, so I do not agree with artificial birth control methods.

(btw, if someone is taking the 'contraceptive' pill for medical reasons, then it is not "birth control" so is not a problem)

[twistedsketch]

we should keep sex the way God intended, as part of a loving married life; an emotional, physical and spiritual pleasure that is open to conception, so I do not agree with artificial birth control methods.

But what if, within marraige, the two people have every intention of keeping the emotional, spiritual, and every other aspect of sex but the finances are tight? They'd have every intention of bonding completely, as God intended rather than just treating it like some cheap thrill. The only difference would be they literally cannot afford to support a baby.

[Blessed be His Name]

Was that for hormonal problems or actual birth control?
Actual BC.

[pegatha]

even if there is no unequivocal condemnation of birth control, there is certainly no Biblical support for using it.
I disagree. I believe the Bible hints that natural means were used to space out the births of childlen in Old Testament days.

On a couple of occasions, Scripture speaks of women who were nursing their children, and who didn't conceive again until after the children were weaned. I don't know how long women breastfed their babies in those days, but in other low-tech, agrarian societies, nursing can continue for quite a while, even two or three years. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the same was true in those days.

Medically speaking, it's known that breastfeeding a baby every four hours or so can suppress the mother's ovulation. It's almost as if God has designed a woman's body with a built-in birth regulator. Nowadays, women who breastfeed usually only do so for a few weeks or months. In addition, most new moms make it a top priority to get their babies to sleep through the night as soon as possible, which means that even mothers who breastfeed don't do so frequently enough to suppress ovulation. So in our society, we've pretty much lost the secondary use of breastfeeding as a form of family planning. Instead, we've replaced it with chemical or barrier methods to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

If I'm understanding Scripture correctly on this, then it makes sense to me that Christian married couples should be free to make their own decisions concerning any method that prevents conception.

[rebel_conservative]

I disagree. I believe the Bible hints that natural means were used to space out the births of childlen in Old Testament days.

On a couple of occasions, Scripture speaks of women who were nursing their children, and who didn't conceive again until after the children were weaned. I don't know how long women breastfed their babies in those days, but in other low-tech, agrarian societies, nursing can continue for quite a while, even two or three years. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the same was true in those days.

Medically speaking, it's known that breastfeeding a baby every four hours or so can suppress the mother's ovulation. It's almost as if God has designed a woman's body with a built-in birth regulator. Nowadays, women who breastfeed usually only do so for a few weeks or months. In addition, most new moms make it a top priority to get their babies to sleep through the night as soon as possible, which means that even mothers who breastfeed don't do so frequently enough to suppress ovulation. So in our society, we've pretty much lost the secondary use of breastfeeding as a form of family planning. Instead, we've replaced it with chemical or barrier methods to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

If I'm understanding Scripture correctly on this, then it makes sense to me that Christian married couples should be free to make their own decisions concerning any method that prevents conception. (emphasis added)

[pegatha]

"Natural means"... (emphasis added)
But we routinely use technology to replace natural means when necessary. We use ventilators when someone can't breathe naturally, we perform surgery when someone can't heal naturally, we replace natural bones or joints with those made of metal or synthetic fibers, we use antibiotics when the natural immune system proves inadequate... why should family planning be the one situation that God allows "naturally" but not with technological assistance?

[PaladinGirl]

I disagree. I believe the Bible hints that natural means were used to space out the births of childlen in Old Testament days.

On a couple of occasions, Scripture speaks of women who were nursing their children, and who didn't conceive again until after the children were weaned. I don't know how long women breastfed their babies in those days, but in other low-tech, agrarian societies, nursing can continue for quite a while, even two or three years. I don't think it's a stretch to assume the same was true in those days.

Medically speaking, it's known that breastfeeding a baby every four hours or so can suppress the mother's ovulation. It's almost as if God has designed a woman's body with a built-in birth regulator. Nowadays, women who breastfeed usually only do so for a few weeks or months. In addition, most new moms make it a top priority to get their babies to sleep through the night as soon as possible, which means that even mothers who breastfeed don't do so frequently enough to suppress ovulation. So in our society, we've pretty much lost the secondary use of breastfeeding as a form of family planning. Instead, we've replaced it with chemical or barrier methods to accomplish pretty much the same thing.

If I'm understanding Scripture correctly on this, then it makes sense to me that Christian married couples should be free to make their own decisions concerning any method that prevents conception.

Nice post but I disagree that we should be able to use any method that prevents conception. God designed sex to be both a procreative and unitive act for the married couple. To take away the procreative aspect is to turn sex into something unnatural and not what it is designed for.

[pegatha]

To take away the procreative aspect is to turn sex into something unnatural and not what it is designed for.
Well, taken to is logical conclusion, that would mean that sex with a spouse who was infertile due to illness or accident, or with a post-menopausal wife, would be unnatural. It would also mean that someone known to be infertile couldn't contract a Scripturally valid marriage. I hate sounding nitpicky or combative, but I'm really not following your logic.

Of course, if you really believe that contraception is wrong, then you'd be wrong to use it. That's your decision to make, and if your goal is to honor God, then I certainly have no quarrel with you. There's nothing wrong with having seven or ten or fourteen children (didn't Susannah Wesley have 20 or 21?) if you have the resources to support them. But if you lack the money to provide necessities or the stamina to love & discipline consistently, then it's irresponsible to keep having more when there are simple and affordable ways to limit the number. As I've already explained, I see precedent in Scripture for spacing out the births of children, precedent that doesn't require periodic abstinence or denying your spouse. If someone else reads the same passages and comes to a different conclusion, that's fine. But the anti-contraception arguments I've seen so far lack any solid Scriptural foundation, which (for me) is the deciding factor.

[jangnim]

What is your view on birth control? Please vote and tell us in here or explain why you voted the way you did. :)

From a stand point of a man, father, grandfather, and husband, here is my 2 cents.

It seems highly illogical that God would have us be stupid about children. In the modern world, the idea of unrestrained reproduction is personal suicide. With costs per child at an ever increasing spiral, it seems more likely, if only from a stewardship point of view, we need to control the number of children we have.

Personally I have accepted much criticism in this regard, but honestly, I don't think Jesus wants us to be stupid.

[bubblegirl23]

There are other ways to be intimate without intercourse. Maybe that's an answer for those not ready for children who disagree with contraceptives.

[PaladinGirl]

There are other ways to be intimate without intercourse. Maybe that's an answer for those not ready for children who disagree with contraceptives.

True. However, I believe that all sexual acts should end with the possibility of procreation.

[cds113089]

I believe that God created sex as a means of procreation, and to strengthen a marriage. The reason I don't think any birth control method is acceptable (with the possible exception of NFP) is because children are a gift from God, not a hassle or burden, and they should not be viewed as one. People who use birth control are committing a selfish act, because they are using sex only for their own personal satisfaction rather than for that AND the possibility of procreating, as God commanded us to do at the beginning of time.

[PaladinGirl]

I believe that God created sex as a means of procreation, and to strengthen a marriage. The reason I don't think any birth control method is acceptable (with the possible exception of NFP) is because children are a gift from God, not a hassle or burden, and they should not be viewed as one. People who use birth control are committing a selfish act, because they are using sex only for their own personal satisfaction rather than for that AND the possibility of procreating, as God commanded us to do at the beginning of time.

I agree but I do think that NFP is okay as long as a grave reason for using it exists.

[constance]

I agree but I do think that NFP is okay as long as a grave reason for using it exists.

Both of my children were conceived while using NFP. My doctors told me not to conceive again due to some problems that I had during my last pregnancy.

My options were to tell my husband that he could A) become celibate or B) sleep on the couch or that I could C) have a tubal ligation. I chose the tubal ligation.

If the Lord in His infinate Love and Mercy chooses to grace us with another beautiful child through a miracle, we will welcome him or her with open hearts and arms.

Oh - I guess there was always option D) that I could die and kill a baby along with myself.

Constance

[lismore]

My view is that only Natural Family Planning is acceptable to Christians and only for grave reasons. I agree with the Roman Catholic teaching on this.

Hi Holly:wave:

I would just like to say that I admire the last Pope for his clear moral stance on this issue!

I just wish some of the wishy washy protestant churches would make a moral stand on this issue, rather than slipping down a slippery slope

Peace be with you:)

[LiberatedChick]

I voted that any birth control method is acceptable except abortion. I believe that any method is ok as long as it doesn't cause abortion.

[B®ent]

I vote,

Only Natural Family Planning is acceptable for Christians and only for grave reasons.

[B®ent]

I voted that any birth control method is acceptable except abortion. I believe that any method is ok as long as it doesn't cause abortion.

That excludes the chemical BC pill, then, which CAN cause abortions...

[Lynn73]

I picked any birth control method is acceptable except abortion. I need to add to that, however, since the other I would choose wasn't really included. No birth control method should be used that kills a fertilized egg or prevents it from implanting, such as an IUD. And, of course, the "morning after" or abortion pill shouldn't be used. In other words, any method is okay as long as it doesn't destroy an egg that's already been fertilized by sperm. Once this happens, it's life in God's eyes.

[Diane_Windsor]

Any birth control method is acceptable for Christians. (excluding abortion)

:wave:

[PaladinGirl]

I think I have lightened up my position. I see nothing wrong with condom useage between married couples if they want to use them. I also see nothing wrong with natural family planning. However, one should also be open to God's will concerning children. If God wants you to have children then have children. Otherwise, I'd say you're free to not have children but don't use hormonal methods cause they're abortifacient.

[progressivegal]

My views are not really represented by any poll option. I believe that any form of birth control is acceptable, but that abortion should NOT ever be used a birth control. I would never ever tell anyone that they are bad or condem them for having an abprtion and I think it would be extremly dangerous to make it illegal, but I do feel that it is wrong to use it as birth control. If you don't want kids, abstain or protect yourself before hand.

[e=mv^2]

extremly dangerous to make it illegal

Abortion is incredibly dangerous now....to babies.
I totally disagree. I think that alot fewer babies would be murdered if it were illegal.

[progressivegal]

Abortion is incredibly dangerous now....to babies.
I totally disagree. I think that alot fewer babies would be murdered if it were illegal.

I don't want to debate abortion here, but I really don't think going back to knitting needles and coat hangers is in the best interest for anyone. If someone is desperate to end their pregnancy they won't let a law stand in thier way and end up doing something that could kill them. It sounds harsh, but I'd rather have one life lost than 2.

[Project 86]

Coat hanger abortions where never common here in the USA. Also once abortions were made legal the number of abortions done legally or illegally has sky rocketed. If your concerned about saving lives you would be against legalized abortions because making them illegal again would save lives. I suggest people read this articl (http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/abortion/improcho.htm)e (http://www.str.org/free/commentaries/abortion/improcho.htm).

I don't want to debate abortion here, but I really don't think going back to knitting needles and coat hangers is in the best interest for anyone. If someone is desperate to end their pregnancy they won't let a law stand in thier way and end up doing something that could kill them. It sounds harsh, but I'd rather have one life lost than 2.

[progressivegal]

I don't think we're going to agree on this issue, and that's OK. instead of both sides always focussing on what we disagree upon, I suggest we focus upon what we do agree upon, PREVENTING abortions from happening in the first place by preventing unwanted pregnancies by stressing abstinence and proper contraceptive use. If the pro-lifers and pro-choicers worked together we could do alot to prevent the number of abortions. We're stronger together than we are appart. Lets get together and fight the real enemy, ignorance!

[thanksb2god]

My view is that only Natural Family Planning is acceptable to Christians and only for grave reasons. I agree with the Roman Catholic teaching on this.





For one I never heard such thing in the Catholic church stating that you should do natural family planning. In the eyes of the catholic church they expect you to have like 10 children. But in gods eyes it is wrong to have sex with anyone until you are married. They say that if you do you are commiting a sin.

Like me I am on the shot. But I all ready am married and have 2 kids.

[twistedsketch]

I don't want to debate abortion here, but I really don't think going back to knitting needles and coat hangers is in the best interest for anyone. If someone is desperate to end their pregnancy they won't let a law stand in thier way and end up doing something that could kill them. It sounds harsh, but I'd rather have one life lost than 2.
Hey, if she's so desperate as to use a coat hanger and suffer permanent damage/death, she brought it on herself. She's getting what she deserves for murdering her own child. I have no compassion for these people until they've crossed the line and repented. Then, and only then should they recieve grace and comfort.

[thanksb2god]

Hey, if she's so desperate as to use a coat hanger and suffer permanent damage/death, she brought it on herself. She's getting what she deserves for murdering her own child. I have no compassion for these people until they've crossed the line and repented. Then, and only then should they recieve grace and comfort.



That is just wrong to commit something like that.

[e=mv^2]

Legal or illegal abortion is a tragedy. It is pure badness all the way around. There is no good that comes out of it ever.

Saying that it should be legal because if it were not then the murderer risks health problems just does not fly with me. Frankly I am FAR more concerned with the rights of the VICTIM than the offender.

My position:
There would be fewer deaths if abortion were illegal.

Any debate on that?

[Diane_Windsor]

I don't think we're going to agree on this issue, and that's OK. instead of both sides always focussing on what we disagree upon, I suggest we focus upon what we do agree upon, PREVENTING abortions from happening in the first place by preventing unwanted pregnancies by stressing abstinence and proper contraceptive use. If the pro-lifers and pro-choicers worked together we could do alot to prevent the number of abortions. We're stronger together than we are appart. Lets get together and fight the real enemy, ignorance!

:thumbsup:

For one I never heard such thing in the Catholic church stating that you should do natural family planning. In the eyes of the catholic church they expect you to have like 10 children. But in gods eyes it is wrong to have sex with anyone until you are married. They say that if you do you are commiting a sin.

HUMANAE VITAE (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html)-Pope Paul VI

For further reading regarding the RCC teaching on birth control:

Life Giving Love: Embracing God's Beautiful Design for Marriage by Kimberly Hahn

My position:
There would be fewer deaths if abortion were illegal.

Any debate on that?


Not on this thread. This thread is about birth control, not abortion.




Diane
:wave:

[progressivegal]

oops, I missread option two as being "including abortions" instead of what it actually is "EXCLUDING abortions". Option two it is for me then.

[ianl]

I believe barrier methods are OK. I am undecided about the pill, and the morning after pill is certainly bad.

Abortion is a terrible event.

[Macano]

My wife takes birth control pill, but not as pregnancy prevention, but rather for symptom management. She has been hospitalized twice this year alone due to extreme pain of her "female plumbing." This pain was not necessarily associated with periods, some months it was, other times it was nearly constant day after day for weeks at a time, during which she could barely function. By extreme pain I mean that she would pass out from the pain. She has suffered injuries as a result of passing out, ie hit her head and sprained her foot. After she awakes, she couldn't walk for some hours, as her legs would go completely numb. Trust me, her pain was ruining her life.

After many, many specialist visits, (and a lot of medical bills!) we were left with two options: Birth control to manage the pain and suppress the problem that causes it in the first place, or a complete hysterectomy, along with removal of both ovaries. We chose the first option, as we still want kids. Once we want kids, she will have to get off birth control and endure pain until they are born. After that she will get the surgery. Just to be clear, the doctors tried all sorts of pain meds, and NONE helped. Even with Codeine she was in tears. The BC has allowed her to return to a normal life, however, and I thank God it is around, as I couldn't bear to see her in such horrible misery. It broke my heart to see her suffer like that and not be able to help her.

[kidsminister]

Exactly! Birth control pills are often used for more than just preventing pregnancy.

I know they worked the best for me to control my cramps, which was honestly the main reason I used them after I got married. Unfortunately, they made me an emotional basket case, so it's been Natural Family Planning for us since (it obviously works; 3 years of that method and no kids!).

But the downside is that I still suffer from horrible, almost unbearable cramps 2-3 days a month. I take Tylenol Arthritis, which contains 650 mg of pain relief in one tablet (I take two for cramps!), and it makes me better in the sense that I can walk and function semi-normally.

[lismore]

Hi Macano

How are you:wave:

Sorry to hear about your wife, did you try:pray:


My wife takes birth control pill, but not as pregnancy prevention, but rather for symptom management. She has been hospitalized twice this year alone due to extreme pain of her "female plumbing." This pain was not necessarily associated with periods, some months it was, other times it was nearly constant day after day for weeks at a time, during which she could barely function. By extreme pain I mean that she would pass out from the pain. She has suffered injuries as a result of passing out, ie hit her head and sprained her foot. After she awakes, she couldn't walk for some hours, as her legs would go completely numb. Trust me, her pain was ruining her life.

After many, many specialist visits, (and a lot of medical bills!) we were left with two options: Birth control to manage the pain and suppress the problem that causes it in the first place, or a complete hysterectomy, along with removal of both ovaries. We chose the first option, as we still want kids. Once we want kids, she will have to get off birth control and endure pain until they are born. After that she will get the surgery. Just to be clear, the doctors tried all sorts of pain meds, and NONE helped. Even with Codeine she was in tears. The BC has allowed her to return to a normal life, however, and I thank God it is around, as I couldn't bear to see her in such horrible misery. It broke my heart to see her suffer like that and not be able to help her.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Personally I feel that any method of brith control is wrong, but from the standpoint of scripture I would say that I cannot find any mandate against barrier methods. I do think they denying either aspect of sex (procreation or recreation) is dead wrong as it denied the fullness of something God created but that is not mentioned as being sinful. The reformers went too far and denied the recreational aspect of sex in their condemnation of any form of birth control and that is partially why Protestant denoms in the past ~70 years have begun to teach birth control as being acceptable. I also am against NFP for the most part as it involves denying your spouse. If the couple were to follow scripture and fast and pray during that period each and every month then I couldn't argue against it but if that is not happening then scripture is being gone against. After much study the only answer I can come up with is that barrier methods would be a matter of conscience as they are never mentioned in scripture.

[e=mv^2]

If the couple were to follow scripture and fast and pray during that period each and every month then I couldn't argue against it but if that is not happening then scripture is being gone against.
At that point aren't you using fasting as a method of birth control? I think that would be an improper reason to fast.

[twistedsketch]

But if God is in control of His responses, then praying and fasting is not some magic formula that we can use to control Him. I don't see how that could be birth control, unless women can't concieve when they haven't eaten for several days.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

But if God is in control of His responses, then praying and fasting is not some magic formula that we can use to control Him. I don't see how that could be birth control, unless women can't concieve when they haven't eaten for several days.

Scripture says to not deny one another except for a time of prayer and fasting, which is why I stated that. NFP requires denying one another so if you are going to do that and follow scripture you would pray and fast during that time.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

At that point aren't you using fasting as a method of birth control? I think that would be an improper reason to fast.

Since scripture doesn't address the reasons for fasting and praying in that situation I don't think we can say it would be wrong. I personally do not believe in it but I am going on what I can back up with scripture. We are quiverfull and have 5 kids right now and there is no BC anywhere around this house. But in regards to what I can tell others is wrong and right according to scripture NFP with fasting and prayer has to fall under right,

[£amb]

I use birth control to help maintain a regular menstration. Sorry gentlemen if this sounds yucky. ;) I am unable to get pregnant naturally without the use of fertility medicine. Birth control for me is not about not wanting children...it's to help me with my "womanly" issues.

[progressivegal]

Since scripture doesn't address the reasons for fasting and praying in that situation I don't think we can say it would be wrong. I personally do not believe in it but I am going on what I can back up with scripture. We are quiverfull and have 5 kids right now and there is no BC anywhere around this house. But in regards to what I can tell others is wrong and right according to scripture NFP with fasting and prayer has to fall under right,

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "quiverfull"?

[e=mv^2]

Fasting for the purpose of legalizing denial of sex. You do not see a problem with that? You are staring out with the premise that you will deny sex and then find a way to excuse it. When you start out with a sin (or any wrong action) and then look for ways to go about it legally you are on a dangerous path.

Not a good option I would say.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Fasting for the purpose of legalizing denial of sex. You do not see a problem with that? You are staring out with the premise that you will deny sex and then find a way to excuse it. When you start out with a sin (or any wrong action) and then look for ways to go about it legally you are on a dangerous path.

Not a good option I would say.

I stated I did not agree but to call it sin would be fallacy. If a couple decides to fast and pray during a time of abstinence so as not have children they are following scripture. By fasting and praying they will be drawing closer to God and if they are in the wrong it is the perfect time for the spirit to convict them in their error. To call something sin that the Bible does not call sin is not somewhere I am willing to go.

[TwinCrier]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is "quiverfull"?A quiver ia the tube that bow hunters carry their arrows in, it's used in the bible as a metaphor for have all the children God would choose to bless you with. Read Psalm 27 for the context of it.

[kidsminister]

Scripture says to not deny one another except for a time of prayer and fasting, which is why I stated that. NFP requires denying one another so if you are going to do that and follow scripture you would pray and fast during that time.

Well...I don't necessarily believe that you are "denying" each other if you're both in agreement not to have sex.

If my husband or me is "in the mood," but the other one is feeling ill, for instance, it's called being respectful not to DEMAND sex. It's for mutual enjoyment, not just so that one partner can get their jollies!

How often and at what times a married couple chooses to enjoy sex is nobody's business but that couple's!!

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Well...I don't necessarily believe that you are "denying" each other if you're both in agreement not to have sex.

But the issue becomes what if one partner feels the urge?

If my husband or me is "in the mood," but the other one is feeling ill, for instance, it's called being respectful not to DEMAND sex. It's for mutual enjoyment, not just so that one partner can get their jollies!

If one partner doesn't ask then the other is not denying, and a day or two of illness is quite different than the length of time required for NFP.

How often and at what times a married couple chooses to enjoy sex is nobody's business but that couple's!!

It's not any other human's business, but it is God's.

[e=mv^2]

I stated I did not agree but to call it sin would be fallacy. If a couple decides to fast and pray during a time of abstinence so as not have children they are following scripture. By fasting and praying they will be drawing closer to God and if they are in the wrong it is the perfect time for the spirit to convict them in their error. To call something sin that the Bible does not call sin is not somewhere I am willing to go.

It was not my intention to say that denial of sex was a sin. My point was that if you start out with the intention to do something bad (including sin) then go about looking for methods to justify it then that becomes a problem.

Why are you fasting? If you are fasting to draw nearer to God then great! If you are fasting to be able to justify something that you could not justify otherwise then you may be doing it for the wrong reason.

A. Only fasting that is done with the right motive, that of glorifying God, can be pleasing in His sight.

Isaiah chapter 58 "Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? ... Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure ... ye fast for strife and debate ... ye shall not fast as ye do this day ... Is it such a fast that I have chosen? To loose the bands ... to undo the heavy burdens ... to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him ..."

Zechariah 7:5-6 "... When ye fasted and mourned ... those 70 years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?"

Matthew 6:16-18 "The hypocrites ... disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast."

Luke 18:9-14 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I am not as other men are ... I fast twice in the week ..."



Is fasting with the intent of denying your partner sex a proper motive? I would say no it is not.

Also - who among us can live if we only eat 2 weeks out of each month? You would die!

Well...I don't necessarily believe that you are "denying" each other if you're both in agreement not to have sex.
But the issue becomes what if one partner feels the urge?
If you have agreed that for x period of time you will not ahve sex and then you feel the urge then you deny yourself.
If one partner doesn't ask then the other is not denying, and a day or two of illness is quite different than the length of time required for NFP.
You are now saying that you can go for a longer period witout food than you can without sex. ;)
While I almost agree with you on this one - it simply is not the case. You need to eat more than 2 weeks out of every month in order to be heathly and live well.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

e=mv^2, you do realize that I mostly agree with you. It's not two weeks anyway but that's beside the point. The issue about one partner feeling the urge could actually be restated as the husband feeling the urge because we, as men and myself included, have a darn hard time keeping our desires to ourselves. As stated I don't agree with NFP but cannot make a case or it being sinful if the couple is fasting and praying. Their motives are between them and God and if we have to get into that you would likely find I agree with you for the most part. I do think it is possible for a couple to set aside that time to draw closer to God and seek his guidance on family planning. Possible yes, likely no. It would require much more discipline than anyone I know has but it remains a possibility.

I have personally fasted for longer than two weeks and have not died. It was not for this reason at all. And I am not stating that brag, far be it from me to brag on myself, but I suffered no loss of energy so the only answer I have is that God sustained me. Do I think I could do it again? If called to then yes I could. Did I get an answer to prayer? Yes. Was it the one I wanted? Nope. Was I sure it was from God? You better believe it! I don't think the length of time is an issue if the heart is in the right place. Like I said possible but not likely.

[e=mv^2]

I understand and perhaps I am being picky.

Of course it isn't the 2 (or whatever) weeks. It is 2 weeks out of every month over the course of years that would be unhealthy...
This is how legalism gets started isn't it? People getting too picky about small things.

Maybe it would be better for me to focus on other things.

[kidsminister]

But the issue becomes what if one partner feels the urge?



If one partner doesn't ask then the other is not denying, and a day or two of illness is quite different than the length of time required for NFP.



It's not any other human's business, but it is God's.

#1: Not that I need to disclose the details of my sex life to you, but since you asked...if one of us "feels the urge," and gets the other one in the mood, we usually do go for it, as a matter of fact, even if it is during my fertile time!

#2. Uh...4 days is a long time? Unless you are also counting the days of a woman's menstrual cycle, in which many women (me included!) are so nauseated and crampy that sex is definitely NOT on the forefront of our mind.

#3. I find it hard to believe that God is that concerned about when my husband and I are or are not having sex. If you can show me where it states that in the Bible, fine. And the verse about not denying each other doesn't cut it, because we don't deny each other. If one of us wants it that bad, we don't say, "Honey, not today. I might get pregnant." But for the most part, we just try not to during those four days. If we do, and I end up pregnant, then we'd celebrate and be happy after the initial panic ;) .

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

#1: Not that I need to disclose the details of my sex life to you, but since you asked...if one of us "feels the urge," and gets the other one in the mood, we usually do go for it, as a matter of fact, even if it is during my fertile time!
Please accept my deepest apologies, I meant that as a rhetorical question, it is not something I would I would ever ask anyone on more than a rhetorical level.
#2. Uh...4 days is a long time? Unless you are also counting the days of a woman's menstrual cycle, in which many women (me included!) are so nauseated and crampy that sex is definitely NOT on the forefront of our mind.
Being married and all I was counting all of that.
#3. I find it hard to believe that God is that concerned about when my husband and I are or are not having sex. If you can show me where it states that in the Bible, fine. And the verse about not denying each other doesn't cut it, because we don't deny each other. If one of us wants it that bad, we don't say, "Honey, not today. I might get pregnant." But for the most part, we just try not to during those four days. If we do, and I end up pregnant, then we'd celebrate and be happy after the initial panic ;) .
Then you aren't denying each other at all so the points I was making are moot in reference to your situation.

[kidsminister]

Then I guess we've just been lucky ;) . Maybe there is something to letting God decide when we have kids, because since I went off the pill three years ago, we haven't strictly followed the NFP method, and yet I have still not gotten pregnant. I know that I "can" can conceive, and so can my husband - I guess God knows it just wouldn't be a good time!

[TheologiaCrucis]

No birth control method is acceptable for Christians.

[kidsminister]

No birth control method is acceptable for Christians.

Scripture?!?!?

[TwinCrier]

Can you provide scripture that children should be avoided by a married couple? The only story in the bible directly related to birth control is about Onan, but back when I still accepted and used birth control, I found it very easy to rationalize and dismiss those verses. It's so much easier to to rationalize than repent.

[kidsminister]

Can you provide scripture that children should be avoided by a married couple? The only story in the bible directly related to birth control is about Onan, but back when I still accepted and used birth control, I found it very easy to rationalize and dismiss those verses. It's so much easier to to rationalize than repent.

The story of Onan is in reference to disobedience, not birth control or masturbation, or anything else that people try to make it. God commanded him to give his wife an heir; he refused. He disobeyed God.

Using that story to say that birth control is not acceptable is like using the story of Lot's wife to say that you should never look over your shoulder at anything behind you. That, too, was an example of disobedience.

No, I cannot provide Scripture in support of birth control. But neither can I provide Scripture directly against it. That is why I asked if there was Scripture that supported the position that "no birth control method is acceptable for Christians."

Other than the story of Onan...

P.S. In a previous posting directed at me, you mentioned that one can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. I am giving that piece of advice back to you today...the tone of some of your posts does not exactly make me want to listen nor consider your point of view.

Truth be told, I am undecided as to my actual opinion of birth control. I don't personally use the pill, and while my husband and I somewhat use NFP, we really don't follow it religiously. As I've mentioned, maybe there is some truth to letting God decide, and apparently He has decided that now is NOT the time for me to get pregnant.

Nevertheless, I am looking for a solid Scripture reference in support of either position - not looking to shatter anyone's world, their doctrine, or their faith.

[TwinCrier]

The tone of my post? I was sharing my own personal experience. In any case, there just is not any "solid Scripture reference in support of either position." Most people in the bible seemed to want to have children, not avoid them. A very different position then many take today.

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Discerning what scripture speaks on this is complicated. Onan's sin was more than just disobediance as is evidenced by the simple fact there is disobediance of God that doesn't result in death throughout the OT so why is Onan's sin of disobediance worthy of death? To claim Onan's only sin was disobedience is a cop out in my opinion. It is shown throughout church history that his sin was much more than that. Learned men throughout church history have all taken the same stance, including the reformers, it has been less than 100 years that churches have changed their position on this. The question should not be why birth control is allright but why have we strayed into teaching that it is.

Children are never refered to as anything less than a blessing from God. One could make a case for denying God's blessing being sinful. One could also make a case that denying the fullness of God's creation is sinful. Sex for recreation only denies the fullness of sex as planned out by God and a strong case could be made for that being a perversion of God's creation and therefore sinful.

The strongest case is simply what scripture says in reference to children. If one was to look at scripture and ignore what society says about children and go from scripture alone no Christian would be practicing birth control.

[kidsminister]

The tone of my post? I was sharing my own personal experience. In any case, there just is not any "solid Scripture reference in support of either position." Most people in the bible seemed to want to have children, not avoid them. A very different position then many take today.

I was also referring to other posts of yours that I've seen. They tend to come across somewhat hostile to those who do not share your opinions exactly.

Not trying to start an argument here...just making an observation! Sorry if I offended you :hug: .

As I've mentioned, I DO want children. And I really don't practice birth control myself, as I have said before - if my husband and I feel like having sex, we do. Our focus is definitely recreational ;) , but we also acknowledge that whenever you engage in sex, you need to be prepared for the possibility that you could get pregnant. Even if you ARE using BC. And if you aren't prepared for the possibility of parenthood, don't have sex. I could go off on a tangent about teen sex here, and how no one seems to think it will happen to them, but I won't...

I love children. I think they are a blessing. Heck, I'm a children's pastor!! I was just looking to see if anyone knew of any Scripture that specifically addressed the issue. It's nice to know these things, for my own personal knowledge, and in case someone in my church asks me!

I guess that my view is that if the Bible doesn't specifially, solidly address it, I'm not going to spend that much time or energy worrying about it...

[kidsminister]

Discerning what scripture speaks on this is complicated. Onan's sin was more than just disobediance as is evidenced by the simple fact there is disobediance of God that doesn't result in death throughout the OT so why is Onan's sin of disobediance worthy of death? To claim Onan's only sin was disobedience is a cop out in my opinion. It is shown throughout church history that his sin was much more than that. Learned men throughout church history have all taken the same stance, including the reformers, it has been less than 100 years that churches have changed their position on this. The question should not be why birth control is allright but why have we strayed into teaching that it is.

Children are never refered to as anything less than a blessing from God. One could make a case for denying God's blessing being sinful. One could also make a case that denying the fullness of God's creation is sinful. Sex for recreation only denies the fullness of sex as planned out by God and a strong case could be made for that being a perversion of God's creation and therefore sinful.

The strongest case is simply what scripture says in reference to children. If one was to look at scripture and ignore what society says about children and go from scripture alone no Christian would be practicing birth control.

That is faulty logic. In the New Testament, Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead for lying to the church leaders and the Holy Spirit. Many people do that today. Other people lied and blasphemed the Holy Spirit in Scripture. Not all were struck dead.

God is sovereign, and He does what He will.

I am not denying that children are a blessing from the Lord, or what the Bible says about them. However, I am not interested in what the reformers thought. I am interested in a specific Scriptural command where God tells us not to practice birth control.

If there is not one, then, as I said previously, I am not going to worry about it anymore...

[e=mv^2]

There is no scripture that says "Thou shalt not use birth control"

There is no scripture that says "Thou shalt use ony barrier methods"

There is no scripture that says anything at all really about birth control.

Birth control did exist back then. The Egyptians were using crocodile dung of all things as a contraceptive - yet there is no specific metion of it.

There is no official fundamentalist viewpoint on birth control that I am aware of.

There is no chapter in "The Fundamentals" that deals with birth control.

Children are a blessing. Possibly the greatest blessing that can ever be given to us. They are also one of the greatest risks and challenges.
They are the most rewarding thing that we as humans can have happen to us and can totally upend your life. There is no question that a child changes your life dramaticly.

Birth control is a very personal matter. There can be no 100% right or wrong in this matter. Is it good to be quiverfull? Yes! Absolutely it is. An abundant family is a wonderful thing.
Is it really a bad thing to limit yourself to 2 children? 4? 17? 30? Should you be required to stop sexual relations at any given point in your life?

I do not know.

The only thing I can say about birth control is that after fertilization of the egg is complete it should be protected as life. beyond that we all have to make a call for ourselves.

The law is written on our hearts. It is very possible that what is written on your heart is different from what is written on mine.

I might eat shellfish and another might not.

I might drink beer and another might not.

I might falter easily on matters that are simple for another to avoid. (I do.. just fyi...)

I think that this is one issue that we need not bicker over. We can not say one way or the other on this issue so we should share what is right for ourselves and leave it at that.

[lismore]

There is no scripture that says "Thou shalt not use birth control"

.

No

But there is a Holy SPirit that leads you into all truth and convicts the world in regards to sin and righteousness.

Now 'birth control'. The one who controls birth is not you.

Job 39:1 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Job 39:1) "Do you know when the mountain goats give birth? Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?

If you wish you use sex with your spouse for recreational purposes then knock yourself out! But whether the female will conceive is in God's hands. There is a word for taking the place of God, Im sure you know what it is.

If you wish to have sex but not have a child why not ask this the Lord this, that he would stop the process, this way you confirm his Lordship and still have your pleasure:
Jeremiah 32:27 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 32:27) http://www.ibs.org/images/indent.gif Read this Chapter (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 32)
"I am the LORD, the God of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?

Now, when so many people want to adopt a child, why not be a surrogate mother? if it is the raising of the child that disgusts you, someone else could raise the child?

Just a few ideas

:)




:)

[kidsminister]

No


If you wish you use sex with your spouse for recreational purposes then knock yourself out! But whether the female will conceive is in God's hands. There is a word for taking the place of God, Im sure you know what it is.

If you wish to have sex but not have a child why not ask this the Lord this, that he would stop the process, this way you confirm his Lordship and still have your pleasure:

Now, when so many people want to adopt a child, why not be a surrogate mother? if it is the raising of the child that disgusts you, someone else could raise the child?

Just a few ideas

:)


:)

First, I believe it is God's design for sex to be recreational and pleasurable. My Scriptural basis for this is the book of Song of Solomon. If it was primarily about making babies, then we'd just "get the job done," the same way a dog or a cat would...no pleasure, no intimacy - just procreation. I hope and pray that for all you married people, it's NOT like that...

Also, most people who use birth control are not "disgusted" by the idea of having or raising a child. If they were, they'd get it taken care of permanently.

However, in this day and age, many husbands and wives just starting out have to work full time. As a woman, I can say that I don't want to have a child, just to spend 3 months' maternity leave with him or her, and then have a daycare provider basically raise my child. Many would say that I shouldn't have gotten married, then, until I could afford to stay home with my child...but that's a different thread ;) .

Other women, as mentioned, use birth control pills to control severe menstrual pain. That doesn't go away just because you get married!

Still others are working through emotional issues or mood disorders, where, if they threw a child in the mix, it would seriously complicate things - so they are postponing it.

There are many other reasons for using temporary methods of birth control, the least of which is that they are disgusted by the prospect of having a child, or that they don't view children as a blessing!

[Project 86]

You seem to show there are various reasons why people would use the pill. What do you say to the fact that all pill based birth controls, even when taken normally, can cause abortions?

First, I believe it is God's design for sex to be recreational and pleasurable. My Scriptural basis for this is the book of Song of Solomon. If it was primarily about making babies, then we'd just "get the job done," the same way a dog or a cat would...no pleasure, no intimacy - just procreation. I hope and pray that for all you married people, it's NOT like that...

Also, most people who use birth control are not "disgusted" by the idea of having or raising a child. If they were, they'd get it taken care of permanently.

However, in this day and age, many husbands and wives just starting out have to work full time. As a woman, I can say that I don't want to have a child, just to spend 3 months' maternity leave with him or her, and then have a daycare provider basically raise my child. Many would say that I shouldn't have gotten married, then, until I could afford to stay home with my child...but that's a different thread ;) .

Other women, as mentioned, use birth control pills to control severe menstrual pain. That doesn't go away just because you get married!

Still others are working through emotional issues or mood disorders, where, if they threw a child in the mix, it would seriously complicate things - so they are postponing it.

There are many other reasons for using temporary methods of birth control, the least of which is that they are disgusted by the prospect of having a child, or that they don't view children as a blessing!

[kidsminister]

You seem to show there are various reasons why people would use the pill. What do you say to the fact that all pill based birth controls, even when taken normally, can cause abortions?

Well, the point of my post was not that - it was to show that most people who use BC are not "disgusted" by children, or deny that they are a blessing. They're just choosing to wait for that blessing! But since you asked...

I had heard that argument against the pill, and brought up that very concern to my doctor when I first started taking it when I got married. I did not want to put anything into my body that could cause an abortion.

My doctor explained how the brand of "the pill" she would prescribe me works...it blocks ovulation. If you don't ovulate, you don't get pregnant. If, for some reason, it does not block ovulation, you could still get pregnant. It is 99% effective. Pretty cut and dried.

There are many brands and dosages of "the pill" out there. I did my research, being staunchly pro-life, and made sure that the particular type of birth control I used was NOT an abortifacient. I trust the sources I consulted, and I trust the doctor I spoke with.

I am well acquainted with many "birth control babies," that is, babies born to friends and relatives who took the pill regularly and still ended up pregnant. No birth defects...no complications...just a "glitch" in the system.

I know that this is a no-win discussion, however - I've read all the literature opposing and favoring BC, I've heard all the arguments for and against. I'm not going to change my position, nor are those opposed to it going to change theirs.

As I said in a previous post, if God didn't bother to clearly address it in Scripture, then I am not going to worry about it.

I am officially done with this discussion. Bye-bye!

[Project 86]

My doctor explained how the brand of "the pill" she would prescribe me works...it blocks ovulation. If you don't ovulate, you don't get pregnant. If, for some reason, it does not block ovulation, you could still get pregnant. It is 99% effective. Pretty cut and dried.


Did she mention that if you still have an egg and sperm combine to form a new life that the pill could cause the egg to not attach to the wall and therefore killing the life of the baby? I have read many medical papers on this. I'm about to get married so this is an important matter to me. I have yet to find any pill that does not stop the egg from attaching to the wall sometimes so that the baby can live and grow. That's one of the few reasons why we will use natural planning. If you can tell me the name of the pill and show me where it will never stop the egg from attaching to the wall that would be big news to me and I would like to know about it.

[Adammi]

What is your view on birth control? Please vote and tell us in here or explain why you voted the way you did. :)
I am appalled by Christians who view pre-conception abortion acceptable. My mom tried for eleven years to have children and was told that she would never be able to have children. Until one day God decided otherwise. She was at the 700 club about 16 years ago and they had special prayer for women who wanted to but couldn't have children and about 9 months later I was born. I am inspired by that because I know that God did the impossible to get me here and he loves me and my parents wanted me and waited for me for eleven years. Praise God!
I couldn't imagine what it would be like to say that I am the 10%.

[lismore]

I am appalled by Christians who view pre-conception abortion acceptable. My mom tried for eleven years to have children and was told that she would never be able to have children. Until one day God decided otherwise. She was at the 700 club about 16 years ago and they had special prayer for women who wanted to but couldn't have children and about 9 months later I was born. I am inspired by that because I know that God did the impossible to get me here and he loves me and my parents wanted me and waited for me for eleven years. Praise God!
I couldn't imagine what it would be like to say that I am the 10%.

Amen, PTL:clap:

I am also surprised by many Christian's attitude towards this issue.

You were bought at a price.

Galatians 2:20 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Galatians 2:20)
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


If people absolutely must have sex and absolutely dont want to have a child, can they not pray committing it into the lord's hands. Explain to the Lord that you want the pleasure of sex but not a child.

If you are taking these awful things for health reasons then I recommend:

James 5:14 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=James 5:14) Is any one of you sick? He should call theelders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Trust in the Lord with your whole heart, you cannot serve both Gopd and the sin nature.

:preach:

[lismore]

First, I believe it is God's design for sex to be recreational and pleasurable. My Scriptural basis for this is the book of Song of Solomon. If it was primarily about making babies, then we'd just "get the job done," the same way a dog or a cat would...no pleasure, no intimacy - just procreation. I hope and pray that for all you married people, it's NOT like that...

Also, most people who use birth control are not "disgusted" by the idea of having or raising a child. If they were, they'd get it taken care of permanently.

However, in this day and age, many husbands and wives just starting out have to work full time. As a woman, I can say that I don't want to have a child, just to spend 3 months' maternity leave with him or her, and then have a daycare provider basically raise my child. Many would say that I shouldn't have gotten married, then, until I could afford to stay home with my child...but that's a different thread ;) .

Other women, as mentioned, use birth control pills to control severe menstrual pain. That doesn't go away just because you get married!

Still others are working through emotional issues or mood disorders, where, if they threw a child in the mix, it would seriously complicate things - so they are postponing it.

There are many other reasons for using temporary methods of birth control, the least of which is that they are disgusted by the prospect of having a child, or that they don't view children as a blessing!


Hi there:wave:

Hope you are well.

What is the main issue here? I suspect its the same as the main issue anywhere. What is the will of God in the situation.

If you require physical, emotional or social healing then look no further.

Psalm 103:

Praise the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits- who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases,

You do not have to turn to the world system or accept worldly values. You have been sanctified by the blood of Jesus, there is a distinction between you and the world. You are a child of God, you do not have to rationalise any longer.

Exodus 8: 22 " 'But on that day I will deal differently with the land of Goshen, where my people live; no swarms of flies will be there, so that you will know that I, the LORD, am in this land. 23 I will make a distinction [a (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request= Exodus 8#fen-NIV-1734a)] between my people and your people. This miraculous sign will occur tomorrow.' "

If you think you cant afford children dont fall into sin because of this, we follow the God who turns situations around.

Isaiah 61:6 And you will be called priests of the LORD,
you will be named ministers of our God.
You will feed on the wealth of nations,
and in their riches you will boast.

Luke 11:9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

God wants to bless you abundantly, children are a gift from God. Turn to the lord in the time of trouble. Seek his will, his purposes, pour out your heart to him and he will not despise you.

P>S Can you please post scripture references for some of the things you mentioned in your post:)

Lismore

[kidsminister]

Project 86 -

I will answer your question. I took Ortho Tri-Cyclen (I probably slaughtered the spelling of it, lol!), and after I switched insurance companies, Nordette - its generic equivalent. Physically, it was great - it dropped my periods down to three days and made me virtually cramp-free. Emotionally, it really did a number on me, which is why I stopped taking it. It just made me really moody, depressed and lethargic, and my husband asked me to stop taking it because of that!!

As I mentioned, I was very concerned about taking a pill that could potentially kill a life that had been formed, and I did ask my doctor about it. It could be that she was misinformed about it herself, and if she was, I apologize for getting your hopes up about it...

As for the rest of you, I have already mentioned that I am no longer participating in this debate, so please refrain from quoting me in hopes of getting a "rebuttal" to your argument. I no longer take BC pills anyway, so it's sort of a moot point!

[lismore]

First, I believe it is God's design for sex to be recreational and pleasurable. !

Hi there:wave:

By all means have your pleasure, test it though! Tell the Lord you just want pleasure and ask him to stop you conceiving!
Proverbs 3:6 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Proverbs 3:6)
in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.


Doing things your way is not acknowledging God's sovereignty:eek:

Also if you need healing: God still heals today. Theres no need to take your water from the world, God is our all sufficient one!

Jeremiah 2:13 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 2:13)
"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

[perpendicular_bisector]

Hi there:wave:

By all means have your pleasure, test it though! Tell the Lord you just want pleasure and ask him to stop you conceiving!
Proverbs 3:6 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Proverbs 3:6)
in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.


Doing things your way is not acknowledging God's sovereignty:eek:

Also if you need healing: God still heals today. Theres no need to take your water from the world, God is our all sufficient one!

Jeremiah 2:13 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 2:13)
"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

Yes, die to self, pick up your cross and follow Jesus. The priority for a beliver is not private parts but God's will.

[Collum Cille of Iona]

As for the rest of you, I have already mentioned that I am no longer participating in this debate,

Greetings

Debate is not a valid employ for the redeemed. All that has happened so far is you have demonstrated the extent to which your walk with christ revolves around THY needs and opinions.

:(

[Collum Cille of Iona]

- it dropped my periods down to three days and made me virtually cramp-free. !

Press in to Jesus.

Mark 5: 25And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. 26She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. 27When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, 28because she thought, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed." 29Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

[twistedsketch]

Doing things your way is not acknowledging God's sovereignty:eek:
So do you never lock your car?

[kidsminister]

Greetings

Debate is not a valid employ for the redeemed. All that has happened so far is you have demonstrated the extent to which your walk with christ revolves around THY needs and opinions.

:(

You do not know me at all. You have no idea what my walk with Christ is like. If you read my previous posts, I was simply looking for Scripture that prohibited the use of birth control (other than the story of Onan, which has been interpreted to be everything from anti-birth control, anti-masturbation, and just about anything else someone wanted it to be about). As no one could provide it for me, I decided to withdraw from this discussion.

Since we believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and our final authority, I would imagine that if an issue were important, God would give us specific instructions regarding what to do.

I am not a vehement pro-BC activist - As I've said many times, I don't use it! I am just interested in Scripture that addresses this issue specifically.

[kidsminister]

Hi there:wave:

By all means have your pleasure, test it though! Tell the Lord you just want pleasure and ask him to stop you conceiving!
Proverbs 3:6 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Proverbs 3:6)
in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.


Doing things your way is not acknowledging God's sovereignty:eek:

Also if you need healing: God still heals today. Theres no need to take your water from the world, God is our all sufficient one!

Jeremiah 2:13 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=Jeremiah 2:13)
"My people have committed two sins: They have forsaken me, the spring of living water, and have dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

1. I do not use birth control! DH and I sort of practice NFP, as in, we try to abstain during my fertile days...but it's not really an absolute ;) . Personally, I don't think it's God's plan for me to get pregnant right now. If He were to bless me with a child, I assume that He has a plan in mind as to how we could possibly take care of him or her between our 2-3 jobs each!! And I'm fine with that.

2. Are you married? Sex IS designed for mutual pleasure and satisfaction between a husband and wife. Of course it is also the way we procreate, but if God did not want sex to be pleasurable, He would have created another way for us to reproduce.

3. I am a licensed Pentecostal minister. I totally believe that God still heals today. I also believe that He sometimes uses doctors to accomplish His will to heal us.

Finally, for the last time...I am NOT trying to debate birth control, or my personal views, or my sex life! All I was doing was asking for some Scripture that specifically addressed the issue. Someone posted that it was absolutely wrong to use, and since we use the Bible to tell us what is right or wrong, I assumed that there was an absolute in Scripture that dealt with the issue.

[Project 86]

Thanks for replying even though I know you don't want to post on this thread any longer.

Project 86 -

I will answer your question. I took Ortho Tri-Cyclen (I probably slaughtered the spelling of it, lol!), and after I switched insurance companies, Nordette - its generic equivalent. Physically, it was great - it dropped my periods down to three days and made me virtually cramp-free. Emotionally, it really did a number on me, which is why I stopped taking it. It just made me really moody, depressed and lethargic, and my husband asked me to stop taking it because of that!!

As I mentioned, I was very concerned about taking a pill that could potentially kill a life that had been formed, and I did ask my doctor about it. It could be that she was misinformed about it herself, and if she was, I apologize for getting your hopes up about it...

As for the rest of you, I have already mentioned that I am no longer participating in this debate, so please refrain from quoting me in hopes of getting a "rebuttal" to your argument. I no longer take BC pills anyway, so it's sort of a moot point!

[kidsminister]

Thanks for replying even though I know you don't want to post on this thread any longer.

Yeah, well, as you can see, I ended up replying a few more times :) .

God bless you as you prepare for your wedding and marriage, and I wish both of you the best. May He provide you with all of the answers that you need for a successful marriage and walk with Him!!

[Ainesis]

This has got to be one tof the strangest threads I have ever seen. I cannot believe people are trying to make a doctrine on birth control where there is none and use it to hold others in bondage.

As in all things, pray for God's guidance and follow him.

[kidsminister]

This has got to be one tof the strangest threads I have ever seen. I cannot believe people are trying to make a doctrine on birth control where there is none and use it to hold others in bondage.

As in all things, pray for God's guidance and follow him.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU for being a voice of reason here!

That is the point I've been trying to make...is there Scripture that deals with the issue? If so, let's see it! If not, why is this even such an issue?

As I said, I no longer wish to debate or argue this issue, but I am definitely going to rep you :thumbsup: .

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

This has got to be one tof the strangest threads I have ever seen. I cannot believe people are trying to make a doctrine on birth control where there is none and use it to hold others in bondage.

As in all things, pray for God's guidance and follow him.
Quite the opposite actually. I say that society's ideals hold us in bondage from accepting the fullness of God's gifts and blessings. There is scripture that deals with it, Onan, his only sin was not disobedience or he would not have been struck dead. There are many examples of people who disobeyed and were not struck dead so we must assume there was more to Onan's sin or God does not deal with each of us fairly. Chemical methods all prevent implantation should they fail to prevent an egg from dropping and are therefore abortificants. I don't think I need to show how that is sinful. Scripture says not to deny one another except for a time of prayer and fasting so NFP doesn't work according to scripture unless the couple is praying and fasting. That leaves only block methods and even those deny the fullness of God's creation. Have we become so arrogant as to tell God when to bless us or how much to bless us? In some aspects we certainly have and that is bondage in and of itself. We are slaves to society's ideas and thoughts regarding children when in fact those ideas and thoughts do not line up with what scripture says regarding children. There isn't anyone trying to put anyone into bondage here but rather to free people to accept the fullness of God's wonderful creation for man and wife.

[Ainesis]

Quite the opposite actually.
The opposite would mean that there is explicit instruction from God in this manner. Where is that if you suppose that it exists?
I say that society's ideals hold us in bondage from accepting the fullness of God's gifts and blessings.
I would tend to agree.
There is scripture that deals with it, Onan, his only sin was not disobedience or he would not have been struck dead. There are many examples of people who disobeyed and were not struck dead so we must assume there was more to Onan's sin or God does not deal with each of us fairly.
Okay. But that does not support your premise that the other reason was one of birth control. In the mouths of two - three witnesses, let a thing be established. Where are the other 2-3 witnesses that condemn birth control? if they do not exist, then you err in trying to establish a doctrine around your interpretation of this one verse.

Further, I contend that it was not about birth control at all. Look at the text. "And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother." Onan was trying to avoid raising up seed to his brother; that was the issue at hand.

Onan knew that the child he had by Tamar would not be his, but would be his brother's. Maybe he was greedy and did not want his brother's name to continue because without a lineage to his brother, he would get more of his father's inheritance. Maybe he had a grudge against his brother (who was called evil) and thereby did not want to honor him by raising up seed.

Regardless of the reason, what Onan did was evil on many levels because he could have opted not to raise seed to his brother. However, admitting this would have subjected him to a humiliating ceremony before the elders where he and his family would be disgraced. Instead of being a man and taking this disgrace, he chose to be sneaky and try to make it appeasr like he was honoring his brother when he was not.

Such was also an evil act towards Tamar because she would be potentially left with no one to provide for her. Had he acknowledged his reluctance to comply with this act, she would have been free to marry someone outside of the family. Or had he complied, she could have been cared for by her children when they got older. We all know how close to Jesus' heart it was that we ensure ensure widows are taken care of appropriately.

There is no proof you have provided that the sin was related to a condemnation of birth control.
Chemical methods all prevent implantation should they fail to prevent an egg from dropping and are therefore abortificants. I don't think I need to show how that is sinful.

Not true. Some simply prevent the creation and/or release of eggs to begin with. No fertilization or life then occurs.

Scripture says not to deny one another except for a time of prayer and fasting so NFP doesn't work according to scripture unless the couple is praying and fasting.

That is a rather twisted interpretation of that text. If a husband and wife decide together that they will abstain from sex during certain times, then pray tell, WHO is being denied????

By your understanding, a husband and wife must have sex at all times that they are not fasting and praying. :scratch: Do you really believe this is God's intent?

Married individuals must be always having sex unless they are praying and fasting. They cannnot agree not to have sex so that they can go to work. They cannot agree not to have sex so that they can go to the grocery store. They cannot agree not to have sex so that they can go to church. Only for prayer and fasting? Is this what you are saying??

If a man and woman agree that neither desires to have sex at a time, no one is being denied and this text is not applicable.

There isn't anyone trying to put anyone into bondage here but rather to free people to accept the fullness of God's wonderful creation for man and wife.

And you are the definer of that? Hogwash! You are trying to put others in bondage by forcing your potentially false interpretation of one and misapplication of another Scripture to establish a doctrine that is obviously dear to your heart but has no biblical foundation whatsoever.

I am sorry, but I take unbrage at what you are doing. Regardless of how strongly you feel about this topic (and it is your right to feel that this is a sin) there is no Scriptural basis for you to try and use this as a way to condemn others when God is silent on this matter.

God does not leave His people without instruction. He has given us everything we need to know His will and walk in it. He does not leave such matters to ambiguity. If you have to guess at the meaning of one text and misapply another, then that is not God's revelation, but your own.

If you feel that such is a sin, then you should certainly not partake in any of these activities. Let every man be fully pursuaded in his own mind.

[Project 86]

Not true. Some simply prevent the creation and/or release of eggs to begin with. No fertilization or life then occurs.

Actually it is true. Some try to prevent the creation of eggs but they sometimes fail to do so. When that happens they can cause the egg to not attach to the wall after the sperm as combined with the egg to form a human life. Because the new human can not attach to the wall he/she dies. If you have medical proof that you can show me that says otherwise I would like to see it. This is an important topic we should be educated in.

[Project 86]

Randy Alcorn has written a great book on the subject called Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?. I just discovered you can read it online for free. You can read it online in html (http://www.epm.org/articles/bcpill1.html) or you can download it and read it in PDF (http://www.epm.org/pdf/bcpill.pdf).

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

The opposite would mean that there is explicit instruction from God in this manner. Where is that if you suppose that it exists?
The statement was in reference to being accused of putting people in bondage, and I still stand by it. I am by no means trying to keep or put people in bondage.

I would tend to agree.


Okay. But that does not support y