Preterism [Archive] - Christian Forums

Othniel

4th June 2002, 11:14 AM

Souljah's close, but that's not it exactly...

...cause I believe that much "last days" prophecy was related to the last days of the Old Covenant, within a generation of Christ (as prophecied by Himself)...and, ironically, history verifies this view as having taken place during or prior to the destruction of Jesusalem in AD 70 when the Son of Man came into His power and, having ascended His throne in heaven, passed righteous judgment on the wicked and adluterous generation which rejected their messiah.

But this does not mean that I believe Christ has already returned for those who believe in Him. In fact, Paul admonishes people not to worry about that in an often misquoted section of scripture (2 Thess 2). The Bible tells us that when Christ comes at the end there will be a great trumpet blast that all will hear , and the dead in Christ will rise from their graves, and we will be caught up to meet Him in the air, and He will judge each man according to what he has done(matt 16:27). This idea is what's called post-tribulationism. But...even post-tribs accept that we are somewhat mid-trib also...because "in the world you will have trouble" as the Lord said. So...the prohpecied tribultion has occurred, the temple has been destoryed (if you don't believe me go to Jerusalem and check it out!) and now the only prophecy left is that of the coming of our Lord, after His Church has blanketed the earth (check out Dan 2:44-45 (in context v 24-47)), and Christ will then have put "all dominion, authority and power" beneath Him (1 Cor. 15:24)

But this view is not preterism .

Preterists takes it further...though I don't know how. I also would appreciate an explanation of it's Biblical attributes.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

Mike Beidler

8th June 2002, 11:17 PM

I highly encourage those interested in knowing what preterism is to check out the following websites:

Planet Preterist (www.planetpreterist.com)
Preterist Archive (www.preteristarchive.com)
Berean Bible Church/David B. Curtis, Pastor (www.bereanbiblechurch.org)
International Preterist Association (www.preterist.org)
Preterist Cosmos (www.strato.net/~dagreen/pretcosmos.html#notearticles)

parousia70

9th June 2002, 09:40 AM

Manifestation1*AD70

9th June 2002, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Othniel
Souljah's close, but that's not it exactly...

...cause I believe that much "last days" prophecy was related to the last days of the Old Covenant, within a generation of Christ (as prophecied by Himself)...and, ironically, history verifies this view as having taken place during or prior to the destruction of Jesusalem in AD 70 when the Son of Man came into His power and, having ascended His throne in heaven, passed righteous judgment on the wicked and adluterous generation which rejected their messiah.

But this does not mean that I believe Christ has already returned for those who believe in Him. In fact, Paul admonishes people not to worry about that in an often misquoted section of scripture (2 Thess 2). The Bible tells us that when Christ comes at the end there will be a great trumpet blast that all will hear ,<><

If I may jump in here? No were in Revelation do is say the sound of the trumpets would be heard with the literal ear. And the Book of Revelation was fulfilled by AD 70.

parousia70

9th June 2002, 08:47 PM

Bump

parousia70

24th June 2003, 09:34 PM

Boy It's Good to be back up and running!

The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways!

Justme

24th June 2003, 10:27 PM

Hi Parousia70,

Boy It's Good to be back up and running!

The Lord indeed works in mysterious ways!

IN fact He is working mysteriouser and mysteriouser, don't you think.

That was a sad comuter problem, the site lost a pile of information.

Justme

parousia70

25th June 2003, 10:46 AM

4Jesus

25th June 2003, 08:45 PM

Yes it was and yes it did.

Thankfully, we have been given a fresh start so to speak. It's not every day that you get the gift of traveling 2 months "back in time".

I look forward to the continuing opportunity to share the truth of past fulfillment.

Agape,
P70

Excuse me p70, aren't you a Preterist? If so you need to read the Urgent message at the beginning of this forum. No Preterists are allowed to post here.

:pink:

4Jesus

25th June 2003, 08:50 PM

If I may jump in here? No were in Revelation do is say the sound of the trumpets would be heard with the literal ear. And the Book of Revelation was fulfilled by AD 70.

Revelation does mention trumpets. Chapters 8-11.

Philip

25th June 2003, 09:00 PM

Excuse me p70, aren't you a Preterist? If so you need to read the Urgent message at the beginning of this forum. No Preterists are allowed to post here.

Erwin's message seems to allow those who consider themselves Christians, even if they do not accept all on the Nicaean Creed to post in this forum. This includes Unitarians, Arians, and Full Preterists, and others.

Justme

25th June 2003, 10:59 PM

4Jesus

26th June 2003, 09:37 AM

Here's a link to a course outline from a class on preterism at Jerry Fallwells Liberty University.

It is an excellent overview of what preterism is and why it is espoused:

Jerry Fallwells Liberty U. preterism course outline (http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html)

I tried the link and all I got was the home page of the university. When I did a search for the subject of Preterism, all I got was 0 documents were found on the subject.

Preterism is a Jesuit invention not a Protestant Reformed teaching. Preterism was first advanced in 1604 by Jesuit Luis de Alcasar in his book "Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi" to destroy the Reformed Protestant teaching that the papacy was Mystery Babylon, the Great Whore and the historical Antichrist.

4Jesus

26th June 2003, 09:57 AM

Erwin's message seems to allow those who consider themselves Christians, even if they do not accept all on the Nicaean Creed to post in this forum. This includes Unitarians, Arians, and Full Preterists, and others.

No it doesn't. People excluded from this site are, (in Erwins own words) "Christians" who are also Preterists.

parousia70

26th June 2003, 11:11 AM

4Jesus,
Actually, if you look closley to the Erwins post, The "unorthodox theological doctrines" section is the ONLY place on CF where Full preterism is allowed to be espoused.

Full Preterists are indeed welcome to post anywhere, but the must keep views EXCLUSIVE to full preterism confined to THIS section.

So sit back and enjoy this invigorating subject!

Philip

26th June 2003, 11:13 AM

This forum is for the discussion of doctrines held by people who are members of churches and denominations that do not fall within conventional mainstream evangelical Christianity - basically people who hold beliefs;that do not fall within the definition of Christianity as laid out in our Forum Rules, which is based on the Nicene Creed. These people will not be allowed to post in our Christian-only forums.

Examples of these people who fall within this category are "Christians" who are also Preterist, "Christians" who reject the Trinitarian nature of God, or "Christians" who are Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, and other denominations considered cults or sects by mainstream Christianity.

Here Erwin's post on the matter. While Preterists may not post in Christian-Only forums (or, at least, may not post preterist views there), they are explicitly included among those who may post here.

parousia70

26th June 2003, 11:20 AM

Hi all,

The opening post was asking about 'Preterism'. It seems odd to forbid 'preterists' to answer. Would there be any one more qualified than an actual preterist to outline what a preterist is?

Speaking of what a preterist is... is a preterist someone who says 1 Cor 15 is totally over or is a preterist a person who says that the raising of the dead is an ongoing affair?Or other?I have checked Preterist Planet and such and it is never totally cut and dried.

A clearer way of putting it, is when will I be raised...to Heaven or Hell or halfway or wherever I'm going?

Justme

Good questions Justme, and there is really is no "unified stance" within "preterists" about that, Just as there is no "Unified stance" among futurists about pre - mid- post- etc....

I personally believe that The raising of the Dead is ongoing, for you have to be first dead to be raised.
"Resurrection of the Living" is simply not taught in scripture, nor is "Resurrection of the Flesh".

I believe the dead were raised out of Hades in 70AD and from then on, nobody "sleeps" anymore when they die, but are either Immediatly clothed in their resurrection bodies and ushered into heaven, or immediatly Judged and cast into the lake of fire. Since 70AD, the wait is over.

Just as Christ's one time sacrifice on the cross continues to have eternal significance and eternal reach and is effective throughout all time, so too the "one time" resurrection in 70 continues to have eternal significance, reach and effectivity.

Once, for all time.
Agape,
p70

parousia70

26th June 2003, 12:44 PM

No it doesn't. People excluded from this site are, (in Erwins own words) "Christians" who are also Preterists.

Are you calling me a "Christian" who is also preterist?

4Jesus

26th June 2003, 05:51 PM

I personally believe that The raising of the Dead is ongoing, for you have to be first dead to be raised.
"Resurrection of the Living" is simply not taught in scripture, nor is "Resurrection of the Flesh".
Once, for all time.
Agape,
p70

Explain this passage to me P70:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

26th June 2003, 06:04 PM

parousia70

26th June 2003, 06:35 PM

OldShepherd

26th June 2003, 07:13 PM

4JESUS:
Explain this passage:
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17

GW:
Paul and the first-century Thessalonian congregation are the "we which are alive and remain."

The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70.

P70: This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

Justme

26th June 2003, 08:58 PM

Hi Par70,

Yepper, that is exactly how I understand the scripture.

The funny thing here is I arrived at that understanding mostly from reading the bible for myself. I am aware that most mainline/conventional/ordinary/whatever is the word churches believe similarily, but I haven't attended a regular scheduled sunday service since my daughter was baptised 20 years ago. I think I read the old KJV from cover to cover for the first time about 43 years ago and I don't know how many times I've read various translations since. Another funny note is I first heard of this 'preterism' maybe 3 or 4 years ago. The bible told me the same things I read in full preterist sites. Go figure.

Thank you
Justme

4Jesus

26th June 2003, 09:04 PM

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

Excellent point about Paul OS!

Heh by the way, good to see you :wave:

Justme

26th June 2003, 09:11 PM

Hi OS,

But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

"The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70." But none of this is supported by scripture.

Actually what GW and Par70 wrote is the only interpretation that the bible supports.

Does the bible tell us when the general resurrection is, (those who sleep in the dust,) yes it does:

Daniel 12

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.

Paul talks about that in 1 Thess 4. However, those alive at the coming WILL NOT precede those who sleep in the dust, those who died prior to the establishment of the kingdom of God which occured after the great time of wrath.

Jesus also talks about those in the dirt here:

John 5:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

This was said sometime in the early 30's AD and it is said HAS NOW COME so these guys are either raised up or they are still down there listening. Paul said they would be raised before WE were, the WE being him or those he wrote to. Since he died prior to 70 AD he probably had to take a dirt nap, but who knows.

Justme

26th June 2003, 09:42 PM

OS:
But we know that Paul did NOT remain alive to be caught up, he was martyred by Rome.

GW:
Jesus told the apostles that some of them would be killed: "you will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death" (Luke 21:16). Yet other apostles would remain alive until the Parousia (Matt 16:27-28; John 21:21-22).

Also, only "the dead" rise in the "resurrection of the dead. The Living do not. They get "caught up" after "the resurrection of the dead." When? Once they are "the dead."

GW:
The dead left Hades/Purgatorio/Sheol at AD 70, and did so within the generation of Paul and his original audience. This rising included dead men and women such as Daniel, David, Deborah, and all those that were "asleep in Christ" before AD 70."

OS:
But none of this is supported by scripture.

GW:
It is all scripture. And, if the resurrection has not yet taken place, then the OT saints (and perhaps some of the NT saints) are still in hades/purgatorio/sheol. In the futurist paradigm, Daniel, David, Deborah etc. remain where they have been since they died -- i.e., in Hades/ purgatorio/ sheol). In the preterist paradigm, these saints have been raised out of Hades and they entered Heaven, following after Christ himself. They have been raised out from the dead.

4Jesus

27th June 2003, 10:24 AM

Hi OS,

Actually what GW and Par70 wrote is the only interpretation that the bible supports.

Does the bible tell us when the general resurrection is, (those who sleep in the dust,) yes it does:

Daniel 12

1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29). Paul said that: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor.15:22 Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection. The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time. John saw:And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given unto them. Rev.20:4 These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God. Then John saw:I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, which had not worshipped the beast, neither the image, neither had recieved his mark upon their forheads, or in their hands; they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition (as souls), then he saw them rise from the dead (they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection Rev.20:5Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev.20:6

Paul talks about that in 1 Thess 4. However, those alive at the coming WILL NOT precede those who sleep in the dust, those who died prior to the establishment of the kingdom of God which occured after the great time of wrath.

1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection." Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever (Gen.13:15; 2Sam.7:13,16; Jer.31:34), the Lord Jesus Christs Kingdom will be established on earth and has not happened yet.

Jesus also talks about those in the dirt here:

John 5:

25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live

This was said sometime in the early 30's AD and it is said HAS NOW COME so these guys are either raised up or they are still down there listening. Paul said they would be raised before WE were, the WE being him or those he wrote to. Since he died prior to 70 AD he probably had to take a dirt nap, but who knows.

Justme

I refer you to what I said above. [QUOTE]When they therefore were come together, they asked him saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power. Acts 1:6,7The Greek word translated "times" is (chronos), and seasons in Greek is "Epochs" (kairos). Chronos regards time as a succession of events, one following the other in chronological order. In contrast, kairos denotes an era, a system or order of chronology, a period of time characterized by a distinctive development. This noun is frequedntly used for organization of historical events in their dispenstional category. Jesus never told the disciples that the earthly kingdom would not be established but he told them that things must follow a certain order before this happens.

Justme

27th June 2003, 10:45 AM

ksen

27th June 2003, 11:40 AM

Explain this passage to me P70:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This part is self explanitory.The Dead in Christ rise FIRST.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1Thessalonians 4:16b,17.

Then (after that time) those who remained alive (Paul and his contemporaries) Would be caught up at their death and be "forever together" with the dead who were raised first.

I Thess 4:16-17 says that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together....." There is no mention of them dying and being caught up. It says they are ALIVE when they are caught up.

ksen

27th June 2003, 11:47 AM

Justme

27th June 2003, 12:06 PM

Hi ksen,

YOU SAID:
Oh, this was worse than the Holocaust?
********************

The holocaust was a terrible time indeed, but it is reffered to as the 'holocaust' and the time just before the coming of the son of man was called 'great tribulation. Jesus said there has never been a time like it, He didn't say why, but my guess is it is because it was the most important time in all of christianity. It was at the time of the establishment of the kingdom of God.

YOU SAID:
Jesus said in Jn 5:25 the dead were hearing His voice then. So were dead people popping out of the ground at the time of Jn 5:25?
*************************

Not to my knowledge, which is a good indication there never will be. The raising of the dead is in the spiritual realm, unseen to mortal living man.

Justme

parousia70

27th June 2003, 12:20 PM

I Thess 4:16-17 says that "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together....." There is no mention of them dying and being caught up. It says they are ALIVE when they are caught up.

No, the text "alive and remain" simply referrs to those alive at the time of the 2nd coming, and not at the time of their own "catching up", which the text clearly states takes place not "at" the second coming, but sometime "after" the 2nd coming has already ocourred.

Scripture tells us elsewhere that only "after" a man has first died is he then judged. (Hebrews 9:27)

You have to be dead to be resurrected in "the resurrection of the dead"

4Jesus

27th June 2003, 03:50 PM

Hi 4jesus,

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29).

This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.

You agree from Daniel 12 there will be a resurrection of the good and of the evil. When does Daniel 12 say that occurs?

I'll deal with John5 after.

Justme

Actually it just mentions a resurrection. In (v.7) time, times, and a half is when there will be a tremendous time of persecution, so it looks like a resurrection will come before the persecution .

Sorry, I misunderstood your question.

Justme

27th June 2003, 06:25 PM

Hi 4jesus

In (v.7) time, times, and a half.

Well, that explains how long something will take and if we could ever figure out for sure what 'time' means here we could then know when this resurrection actually happened. It is some 'times ' from when John the Baptist and Jesus were at the Jordon River OR it is something else.

The footnotes say that 'time' here means a year, well Jesus' ministry lasted about that.....but what gives from the two men at the river.

However, as to WHEN this resurrection occurs it is here:

But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

That time...is:

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

The resurrection talked about in Daniel 12 occurs somehow with the great tribulation.

Who would be in that resurrection?
Daniel would be one of them:
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

We know that those who sleep in the dirt are raised then, any others?

Justme

4Jesus

27th June 2003, 06:35 PM

Hi 4jesus

Well, that explains how long something will take and if we could ever figure out for sure what 'time' means here we could then know when this resurrection actually happened. It is some 'times ' from when John the Baptist and Jesus were at the Jordon River OR it is something else.

The footnotes say that 'time' here means a year, well Jesus' ministry lasted about that.....but what gives from the two men at the river.

However, as to WHEN this resurrection occurs it is here:

But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

That time...is:

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.

The resurrection talked about in Daniel 12 occurs somehow with the great tribulation.

Who would be in that resurrection?
Daniel would be one of them:
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

We know that those who sleep in the dirt are raised then, any others?

Justme

I changed my answer since I misunderstood your question I read the chapter and thought you meant the time, times and a half was inreference to the scattering of the people.

Before we go any farther please tell me are you still trying to say this is in reference to A.D.70?

Justme

27th June 2003, 07:18 PM

Hi 4jesus,

I changed my answer since I misunderstood your question I read the chapter and thought you meant the time, times and a half was inreference to the scattering of the people.

Before we go any farther please tell me are you still trying to say this is in reference to A.D.70?

At this point I'm not putting it down to 70 AD, but that is ultimately where I have found it to wind up. For now let's just agree (or disagree) that the resurrection talked about in Dan 12 is connected in time to the great tribulation. And that Daniel would be one of those to be resurrected.

Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.

If we agree on that,....well first do we agree on this?

Justme

4Jesus

27th June 2003, 08:51 PM

Hi 4jesus,

At this point I'm not putting it down to 70 AD, but that is ultimately where I have found it to wind up. For now let's just agree (or disagree) that the resurrection talked about in Dan 12 is connected in time to the great tribulation. And that Daniel would be one of those to be resurrected.

Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.

If we agree on that,....well first do we agree on this?

Justme

You really need to consider something before we go any farther. Leading up to chp.12 it is stated in chp.11 that the "king of the north" is the one that unltimately causes the time of trouble. Since Titus is the general of the forces of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem, he just doesn't fit the title "king of the north" and in 11:45 the "king of the north" builds a palace in Jerusalem. Titus never built a palace in Jerusalem.

Justme

27th June 2003, 11:23 PM

Hi 4jesus,

You really need to consider something before we go any farther. Leading up to chp.12 it is stated in chp.11 that the "king of the north" is the one that unltimately causes the time of trouble. Since Titus is the general of the forces of Rome that destroyed Jerusalem, he just doesn't fit the title "king of the north" and in 11:45 the "king of the north" builds a palace in Jerusalem. Titus never built a palace in Jerusalem.

Good point, but isn't it the king of the south. Anyway you are right, every verse has to agree or we don't have the right answer. I guess there are verses that will forever remain unexplainable so maybe we should say almost every verse should agree.

At any rate what is talked about in 11 are various fueds going on in various places. I don't know the order and origin of kings of that time, but I have seen a webpage somewhere and I'll look it up. Are you able to give me your assumptions of who and where these battles will be fought in the future.

Justme

OldShepherd

28th June 2003, 01:07 AM

No, the text "alive and remain" simply referrs to those alive at the time of the 2nd coming, and not at the time of their own "catching up", which the text clearly states takes place not "at" the second coming, but sometime "after" the 2nd coming has already ocourred.

Scripture tells us elsewhere that only "after" a man has first died is he then judged. (Hebrews 9:27)

You have to be dead to be resurrected in "the resurrection of the dead"

But as you have noted the text clearly says "we who are alive AND REMAIN", it does NOT say we who are alive and die later. Also see 2 Cor 15:51-52, "We shall not all sleep. . .", and from the context it is clear Paul is not talking about taking an afternoon nap.
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
here are the verses referenced before.
1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
If shortly means shortly as someone's signature states, doesn't "alive and remain" mean exactly that?

Justme

28th June 2003, 09:04 AM

OldShepherd

28th June 2003, 09:35 AM

Hi OS,

I realize this is to Parousia70, but I have queries for you.

What do you consider 'sleep' to mean in the verses we have been talking about here?

When did/does this 'sleeping in the dust' end? With the coming of the son of man? At the cross? Tuesday at 8? When?

Justme
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is. Last means last. We are still around so the last hasn't happened from our POV.

Justme

28th June 2003, 09:51 AM

Hi OS,

[b]Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is. Last means last. We are still around so the last hasn't happened from our POV.

Yes, I agree that sleep means death in certain passages.

I also agree that,we( you and I) are still around and, biblically speaking we will be raised sometime in the future because last hasn't happened from OPV.

Am I correct in assuming that in your opinion then that Mother Teresa still 'sleeps'?

Justme

parousia70

28th June 2003, 10:07 AM

Sleep is used in two senses in scripture. Most of the time it refers to what we normally call sleep, napping, dozing, cutting zzzs, etc. And sometimes it is used to refer to death. Context tells us which it is.

1 Thessalonians 5:6

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Which of those 2 senses is "sleep" being used here?
Death or Napping?

Perhaps there is a 3rd sense you didn't mention?

4Jesus

28th June 2003, 10:32 AM

Hi 4jesus,

Good point, but isn't it the king of the south. Anyway you are right, every verse has to agree or we don't have the right answer. I guess there are verses that will forever remain unexplainable so maybe we should say almost every verse should agree.

At any rate what is talked about in 11 are various fueds going on in various places. I don't know the order and origin of kings of that time, but I have seen a webpage somewhere and I'll look it up. Are you able to give me your assumptions of who and where these battles will be fought in the future.

Justme

11:40 says that at the time of the end the "king of the south" will come at the "king of the north" and the "king of the north" shall enter countries and overflow and as I said build a palace in Jerusalem. It also states in (v.41) from the reference to the glorius land (Israel), that "the king of the north" will fight against them but he is defeated after he builds his palace in Jerusalem in (v.45). How long after Rome destroyed Jerusalem was it defeated? I personally don't have any idea who this is and since I believe it is still future, a lot can change with time. I have not gotten into the part of end-time prophecy that deals with armies and such.

To answer your other question about time, times and a half time, a time is a year, times is two years, and 1/2 time is 6mo., Rev.12:14 mentions the same time. So if people believe this passage is about the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70, this only accounts for 3 1/2 yrs. and the theory that Jerusalem was besieged from 63 to 70 A.D (a total of 7yrs.) doesn't seem to fit chp.12 of Daniel. If you read Daniel 7:25 this same time period is mentioned in conjunction with someone that speaks great words against the most High, could this be our Lord Jesus Christ if any of this applies to him coming in A.D.70 and destroying Jerusalem? Would Jesus speak against the most High? It is the fourth beast (7:19) that speaks these things against the most High. Since 10:5 speaks of an angel (most assuredly it is an angel since Michael had to help him against the king of Persia), (12:7) is probably an angel, (Rev.15:6) also speaks of angels clothed in linen.

Justme

28th June 2003, 11:00 AM

Hi 4jesus,

I found scads of information on wars and battles and kings and emporers, but to sort it all out would take ages. So who Daniel is seeing in that vision, I don't know.

I don't see the 'times' thing reffering to the destruction. Isee that being in Daniel 12 here:

11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

That is roughly 3 1/2 years. However, in the Olivet Discourse it is said that the days were shortened so was that decided before or after Daniel made the statement.
In Daniel the end of sacrifice was mentioned as well as the abomination that causes desolation.

Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation***************

Justme
***************

4Jesus

28th June 2003, 05:38 PM

The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29). Paul said that: Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection. The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time. John saw: These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God. Then John saw: These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition (as souls), then he saw them rise from the dead (they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years.

1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection." Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever (Gen.13:15; 2Sam.7:13,16; Jer.31:34), the Lord Jesus Christs Kingdom will be established on earth and has not happened yet.

I refer you to what I said above. When they therefore were come together, they asked him saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power. Acts 1:6,7The Greek word translated "times" is (chronos), and seasons in Greek is "Epochs" (kairos). Chronos regards time as a succession of events, one following the other in chronological order. In contrast, kairos denotes an era, a system or order of chronology, a period of time characterized by a distinctive development. This noun is frequedntly used for organization of historical events in their dispenstional category. Jesus never told the disciples that the earthly kingdom would not be established but he told them that things must follow a certain order before this happens.

Justme, if you will notice in my reply to you in post 29, I made some very valid points that you ignored.

In Daniel 9:24 is the Daniel's vision of the "Seventy Weeks" describes God's dealings with Israel. The 70 prophetic weeks of Daniel's vision are divided into two periods, the first 69 weeks, and the final (seventieth week). It is believed that when Israel rejected Jesus this time of dealing with Israel stopped and Israel was set aside during the church and the last week is yet to be fulfilled. According to Daniel's prophecy, at the end of the sixty-ninth week, the Messiah will be cut off and the city of Jerusalem including the temple destroyed. The 70 weeks began from the only biblical decree authorizing the rebuilding of Jerusalem and its wall (Neh.2), this correlates with each day equaling a year as is the standard in Num.14:34 and Ezek.4:6. Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard spent many years of his life verifying and validating the details of this prophecy. He wrote a comprehensive book of his study called, "The Coming Prince," and he calculated the end of the sixty-ninth week to fall on Palm Sunday, just before the Lord's crucifixion. Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70.

To be continued

OldShepherd

28th June 2003, 06:31 PM

1 Thessalonians 5:6

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Which of those 2 senses is "sleep" being used here?
Death or Napping?

Perhaps there is a 3rd sense you didn't mention?

You may be correct. But I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Context is still the key to our understanding. Sleep does not always mean dozing, napping, etc. and it does not always mean death.

Note, I use bold to more easily read my own posts. I am not shouting. I occasionally use all CAPS to empahsize certain words.

Justme

28th June 2003, 11:59 PM

Hi 4jesus,

I'll deal with some points here and then let's get organized.

One of your arguments is as follows:
Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection.
***********************
The premise you lead with is incorrect, the spirit can die.

Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
***************

What we are getting to in our main conversation will shed light on whether it is possible for there to be a physical resurrection. By physical resurrection I mean a come up out of the grave and walk around earth again kind of physical resurrection.

YOU WROTE:The good and evil will not be resurrected at the same time.
******************
Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Many will awake. Are all who awake the good guys? Apparently not because some are heading for everlasting contempt. There is a judging going on...if you want to consider that only the good are in the line-up to be resurrected, fine, just show me where the bad guys were culled out earlier.

You wrote: These are the saints of the first resurrection, who, represented by the "Four and Twenty Elders" of Rev.4:4, are seen seated on thrones surrounding the Throne of God.
*****************

John was in Heaven whn he saw all this stuff and there are only righteous up there.

Who is involved in the first resurrection. These people:
Rev 20

They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Those that reigned for a 1000 years were:

........those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. ......

You wrote:These are the tribulation saints in their martyred condition
**********************

Yes, they are these folks plus a few others:

Rev 7

15And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Think about this for a moment... this great tribulation that everyone wants to miss and many talk of it as that great day of wrath where God will annialate those nasty ____________group who don't believe as I/we/whoever do and there they are in Heaven.

You wrote:

1Thess.4 is what I just described above and I don't see where you come up with a "general resurrection."
**********************

That is a term often applied to this resurrection. By that I mean the resurrection that was mentioned in Daniel 12 and 1 Thess 4 does talk about that. That is the group that the 'WE' paul speaks of shall not precede. There are no bad guys in the refernce Paul makes because he is talking about the righteous only. The bad guys are going a different route.

You wrote:

they lived again, and they, with the first resurrection saints, reigned with Christ a thousand years.
***********************
Were they not 'LIVING' when John saw them? Were they not 'LIVING' a spiritual existance in Heaven when John saw them. In fact were they not thoseof the first resurrection. See bit below on Rev 20.

You wrote:
Since God made a land grant with Israel and Jesus came to establish His Kingdom through the land grant which is an unconditional covenant with the nation of Israel and it will last forever
************************

Would that be this covenant?
Hebrews 8

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said[2] :
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
******************
That arrangemnet was thrown out because:
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.

This is our new arrangement and it has precious little to do with Israel:

12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[3]
13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

And disappear it did.

You went to a great deal of work on the 70 weeks of Daniel. I don't know how many different 'interpretations' of what Daniel meant is out there, but I say there is enough totally different ones to conclude that nobody really knows what Daniel meant.

There are many other easily understood verses that can lead to an understanding instead of spending yet another 70 weeks arguing over what Daniel saw in a vision.

Now I answered at least some of your questions so let's go back to your answer for this:

Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation***************

Justme

parousia70

29th June 2003, 10:29 AM

Paul said that: Since the spirit cannot die, Paul is talking about a physical resurrection.

Where exactly did Paul say he was speaking of a PHYSICAL resurrection?
I can't find "physical resurrection" anywhere in the Bible.

Sir Robert Anderson of Scotland Yard spent many years of his life verifying and validating the details of this prophecy. He wrote a comprehensive book of his study called, "The Coming Prince," and he calculated the end of the sixty-ninth week to fall on Palm Sunday, just before the Lord's crucifixion.

The 69th week ended with the annointing (baptism) of Messiah, 3.5 years before His "cutting off", 7 years before the Gopsel was freed to go to the gentiles at the end of the 70th week.

Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70.

And Jesus said of that destruction:
"These be the days of vengeance that all things written may be fulfilled"

4Jesus

29th June 2003, 12:47 PM

Continuation of post #48

Yes we do need to get organized and lay some gound work which I did in the post that got lost because of the crash. We need to first realize what was prophesied about the Messiah. Two completely different portraits were described of a coming Messiah by the Old Testament prophets, for those that lived prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, it was difficult for them to understand. They saw the two differences but supposed two different people, they missed the connection.

One portrait depicts Him as a humble servant, who would suffer for others and be rejected by His countrymen. This is in Isaiah 53. The other shows a conquering king with unlimited power, who suddenly comes to earth at the height of a global war and saves men from self-destruction. He places the Israelites who believe in Him as the spiritual and secular leaders of the world and brings in an age free of prejudice and injustice, this can be found in Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9:6,7. The second was the most popular with the people since during Jesus's first advent the perspective of the people including the disciples was distorted by anti-Roman sentiment. They resented Roman authority and accepted the popular opinion that the Jews should have political autonomy. They wanted the kingdom now!

But political kingdom of God as described in Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 9:6,7 demanded a spiritual response first which most of the Jews refused to give (Matt.23:37). Even though the disciples had believed in Christ as Saviour, their preconceived ideas about the kingdom of God had kept them from comprehending Christ's teaching. They also had missed the significance of His rejection by Israel and, therefore, had failed to notice a major shift in His message.

Christ presented Himself to the Jews as the Son of David, the King of the Jews, the fulfillment of all God's unconditional covenants with Israel. When Israel refused to accept her rightful King, the promised earthly kingdom of God was postponed until the Millennium, which God will establish at His own perfect time (Acts 1:6,7), regardless of human acceptance or rejection (1Thess.5:1-2). The disciples were still thinking in terms of an immediate Jewish kingdom on earth after Jesus had already shifted His focus temporarily away from the Jews, who had rejected Him, to a new body of believers, the Church.

If Jesus fulfilled the Prophet Isaiah's prophecy about a "Suffering Servant," Zechariah's prophecy of a "Conquering King" will also be fulfilled. That is why we have a gap in time and the last week (Seventieth Week) of Daniel has not been fulfilled yet.

The prophet Daniel, while in captivity in Babylon, was given a precise timetable and sequence relating to the future events of the people of Israel. Daniel was told that there would be a certain number of years which would transpire between the time a proclamation was given which allowed the Jewish people to return from their Babylonian captivity back to Israel and the coming of the Messiah. This proclamation can be established according to Scriptural history in Nehemiah 2:1-10; Daniel 9:25,26. Also, archeologists have uncovered evidence of this same proclamation in the ancient Persian archives. From the time permission was given to return and rebuild the city of Jerusalem and the Temple until the Messiah would come as the Prince, the heir apparent to the throne of David, would be 483 years (69 weeks of years-483 years). When Jesus died anything having to do with Isareal and the kingdom was set aside temporarily, thus there is still a week in the prediction of Daniel that has not been fulfilled.

Not only was Daniel given specific years, but also a sequence of major historical events which cannot be denied. First of all, there was the proclamation given to the Jews to return from captivity and rebuild the Temple. After that, the Messiah would come as the Prince. Then the Messiah would be "cut-off," which is an idiom for being killed. After the Messiah was killed an army would sweep in and destroy the city and Temple which was rebuilt previously by the returned Babylonian exiles (Daniel 9). As I said before, Daniel's prophecy shows that whoever the Messiah was He had to appear before the city and the Temple were destroyed in A.D.70 by Titus of Rome.

To be continued.

Justme

29th June 2003, 01:22 PM

parousia70

29th June 2003, 03:14 PM

Instead of interrupting, I'll take notes of 4J's interpratation too, and address my points of disagreement when 4J is finished (after Justme of course)

Justme

29th June 2003, 07:30 PM

Hi Parousia70,

Instead of interrupting, I'll take notes of 4J's interpratation too, and address my points of disagreement when 4J is finished (after Justme of course)

Ah, hang in there, we need all the help we can get.

I4jesus has some points she wants to make, so I thought, let's get this worked thru and then get down to resurrection stuff.

Justme

ArtistEd

30th June 2003, 08:22 AM

11:40 says that[U] after he builds his palace in Jerusalem in (v.45).

n.

He's not building a palace here, but merely planting tents. It's like say he plants the flags of his country.
11:45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

4Jesus

30th June 2003, 12:33 PM

Hi 4 jesus,

You wrote:We need to first realize what was prophesied about the Messiah.
****************

If you feel this is important, by all means lay it out. If you don't mind tho, do a summary at times to make sure we follow what your points are concerning the topic of the resurrections.

Justme

CONTINUTATION OF POST #48

I don't appreciate your attitude, it was you who first brought up Daniel to OS in post #27, I replied in #29 about Paul speaking of a physical resurrection in 1Cor.15:22 and made other points about Rev. which you did not address. Then in #30 you dropped the resurrection and got on Daniel. Don't blame me if you can't keep the posts straight! Now, in

Daniel 9:27 you will notice that someone confirms a covenant for "one week." In [v.26] the Messiah has been cut off after "69 weeks" of Daniel's vision leaving a week indicating a gap or seperation from the last week. [v.27] is not Jesus since He has never been involved in an earthy 7 year covenant or deal that happens in the future. This is the false messiah, an impostor, who will confirm this future 7 year covenant of compromise.I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. John 5:43

The covenants of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the promised "Seed of Abraham" (Gal.3:29) is an "everlasting covenant"...Gen.17:7,19; Isa.55:3; Ezek.37:26; Heb.13:20. If you will notice in the "midst" (half way through, after 3 1/2 yrs) of this week (Daniel.9:27) he (false Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, it would stand to reason that there will be a Temple for the sacrifices. Daniel is given this vision in the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus's reign.

Since nothing is said about any trouble, it would seem that it is a peaceful time until the end of this 3 1/2 years, however, after the false prince (Antichrist) breaks the covenant at the end of the first 3 1/2 years, there will be a tremendous time of perseuction and wars (11:40-45). Then in the third year, Daniel is given the rest of the vision and it takes up chapters 10-12. A time, times, and 1/2 times 12:7, another 3 1/2 years.

[12:11,12] I could give you a lot of assumtions of different people but there is no clear cut reason for these times, they are only mentioned in relation to the last 3 1/2 years and as you said once, there may be passages that we will not understand. Even as you say you believe the 3 1/2 years is because the siege on Jerusalem was shortened, the siege on Jerualsem only lasted 21 days. If we take into account the prophecies of Zechariah and Isaiah, our Lord came in the flesh as the Suffering Servnat and He will come in the flesh as a Conquering King.

parousia70

30th June 2003, 12:46 PM

You may be correct. But I do not understand the point you are trying to make. Context is still the key to our understanding. Sleep does not always mean dozing, napping, etc. and it does not always mean death.

I agree, and just wanted to confirm that you agreed that it isn't just an "either snoozing or death" option for the term "sleep" in scripture.

parousia70

30th June 2003, 12:50 PM

CONTINUTATION OF POST #48
In [v.26] the Messiah has been cut off after "69 weeks" of Daniel's vision leaving a week indicating a gap or seperation from the last week.

Sorry, I just had to jump in.

4Jesus, the fact that scripture states that messiah was "cut off" AFTER 69 weeks indicates to me He was cut off in the 70th week because that is the week that comes "after" the 69th.
Since we know the 69th week ended with the Baptism of Jesus, we can also know that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week. 3.5 years after his baptism, causing the effectivity of the blood animal sacrifice to "cease".

Justme

30th June 2003, 01:08 PM

Hi Parousia70,

Please do jump in and deal with this Daniel thing, I don't have a great deal of interest in OT prophecy and I'll be busy today anyway.
I will respond to the first paragraph in that last post because there seems to be a serious misunderstanding.

Thank

Justme

4Jesus

30th June 2003, 01:10 PM

CONTINUTATION OF POST #48

Daniel 9:27 you will notice that someone confirms a covenant for "one week."

Sorry Justme, I forgot to ask, when did Rome make a 7 year deal or covenant with the Jews during the 70A.D. period?

In the future I will be limiting my time on the forum. I will not deal with multi-question post in one setting since they take to long to deal with. I will address the points one at a time and I will get to them as I have time.

4Jesus

30th June 2003, 01:31 PM

Where exactly did Paul say he was speaking of a PHYSICAL resurrection?
I can't find "physical resurrection" anywhere in the Bible. [/b]"

1Cor.15:12-17....Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead not rise. FOR IF THE DEAD RISE NOT, THEN IS NOT CHRIST RAISED: AND IF CHRIST BE NOT RAISED, YOUR FIATH IS VAIN; YE ARE YET IN YOUR SINS......(v.18) THEN THEY WHICH ARE FALLEN ASLEEP IN CHRIST ARE PERISHED.

Justme

30th June 2003, 01:39 PM

Hi 4jesus,

YOU WROTE:
I don't appreciate your attitude, it was you who first brought up Daniel to OS in post #27, I replied in #29 about Paul speaking of a physical resurrection in 1Cor.15:22 and made other points about Rev. which you did not address. Then in #30 you dropped the resurrection and got on Daniel. Don't blame me if you can't keep the posts straight!
*************************

In post #29
I quoted Daniel 12 and made this comment after.

He speaks of a time of wrath that only happens once and that time of wrath is followed immediately by the coming of the son of man. In connection with that time of wrath is the general resurrection.
*********************
About the resurrection..................

You responded with a quite a long post and I said:

This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.

You agree from Daniel 12 there will be a resurrection of the good and of the evil. When does Daniel 12 say that occurs?(this is what we agreed on,... I think)
****************************

About the resurrection........

Then we danced around a bit before I asked you this:

Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation.
*************************

OS was talking with us a bit then and I asked him this:

Am I correct in assuming that in your opinion then that Mother Teresa still 'sleeps'?

About the resurrection...........

Then you started in on a long explanation of what you saw in Daniel.
I read it and asked you this:

...........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

Then in post 50 I dealt with anumber of your points and for the umpteenth time asked you this:

.........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

I sat by patiently while you went thru your Daniel theories, but suggested this:

If you feel this is important, by all means lay it out. If you don't mind tho, do a summary at times to make sure we follow what your points are concerning the topic of the resurrections.
********************************

What a disgusting attitude I have!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway now in a post below you want to deal with one idea at a time.

Praise the Lord and bring the ammunition, that's what I said here in post #30 in answer to your statement below:

You said:The only thing you've proven with Daniel is that there will be a resurrection of those that have done good and those that have done evil (John 5:28,29).

I SAID:This is a positive start and I suggest we go from here.
******************

And you will note this is about the resurrection.

After which I asked you this:

..........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

All of which is concerning the resurrection.

So I have a question for you.

........Anyway, do we agree on this from my earlier post?

********Daniel would be resurrected sometime around the great resurrection. I'm trying not to interfere with any pre-trib, post trib thoughts here. So that for now this resurrection of Daniel is somewhere close in time to the great tribulation****

Justme

Justme

30th June 2003, 02:24 PM

4Jesus

30th June 2003, 03:20 PM

Hi 4jesus,

YOU SAID:Sorry Justme, I forgot to ask, when did Rome make a 7 year deal or covenant with the Jews during the 70A.D. period?
************************

I never said they did, I don't recall the bible saying they did, I recall you saying something like that.

Justme

I never said anything of the sort and you know it. You're the one that keeps saying Daniel leads to Rome and A.D.70, so where does the 7yr. covenant (Dan.9:27) that is divided into two parts of 3 1/2 yrs fit in? When did Rome ever make this kind of covenant with the Jews? :confused: Huh?

I'm getting ready to go somewhere, so I will not be on the forum the rest of the day, but will get back to you tomorrow if possible.

Justme

30th June 2003, 05:46 PM

Hi 4jesus,

Oh, it wasn't you.

Well, it wasn't me, I am not aware of any 7 YEAR thing mixed into to 70 AD.

What temple are they talking about here in 500+ BC?
The first temple was destroyed when 567BC????
What's Daniel talking about?
It really doesn't matter because we can go to Luke 21 and see that:

22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

If you want to consider this is as a proof of the great tribulation being future, we can set Daniel 9:27 aside and see if it reconciles with all verses later.

I'll summarize this and you tell me if I have your argument right.

The great tribulation and hence, the resurrection is still future because there was no 7 year(Daniel 9:27) in 70 AD as you feel there should be to fulfill Daniel 9.

Justme

4Jesus

1st July 2003, 11:34 AM

Sorry, I just had to jump in.

4Jesus, the fact that scripture states that messiah was "cut off" AFTER 69 weeks indicates to me He was cut off in the 70th week because that is the week that comes "after" the 69th.
Since we know the 69th week ended with the Baptism of Jesus, we can also know that Jesus was cut off in the midst of the 70th week. 3.5 years after his baptism, causing the effectivity of the blood animal sacrifice to "cease".

Since Jesus died after entering the city on Palm Sunday that would have been the culmination of "69 weeks". The 69th week did not end with the baptism of Jesus since Jesus didn't present Himself to the people as the Messiah until he rode into the city on Palm Sunday and then He was cut off.

Philip

1st July 2003, 12:08 PM

Since Jesus died on Palm Sunday

Umm, are you sure about that?

4Jesus

1st July 2003, 03:20 PM

Umm, are you sure about that?

Thanks for pointing that out, I corrected my mistake but you of course realized it was a mistake since I said in the next sentence that Jesus rode into the city on Palm Sunday.

4Jesus

1st July 2003, 03:34 PM

Justme

1st July 2003, 06:23 PM

Hi 4jesus,

The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death. 1Cor.15:12-20 does say there is a physical resurrection.

Here are the verses you mention:

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Let's mark those as verses that you say tells of a physical out of the grave walk around earth again resurrection.

If this is referring to a physical get up out of the grave walk around earth again kind a resurrection we will find verses that agree with that. If we find verses that contradict that, your interpretation is false.

Let's finally get to my verses now.
Is Daniel one of the people who will sleep in the dirt and be resurrected at or sometime very near ther great tribulation? Daniel 12:1-3 and 12.

Justme

Justme

1st July 2003, 06:31 PM

4Jesus

2nd July 2003, 10:46 AM

Hi 4jesus,

Here are the verses you mention:

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Let's mark those as verses that you say tells of a physical out of the grave walk around earth again resurrection.

If this is referring to a physical get up out of the grave walk around earth again kind a resurrection we will find verses that agree with that. If we find verses that contradict that, your interpretation is false.

In the same chapter Paul says in [v.52] that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. If your trying to get me to say we will have the same bodies we possess now, I do not. As to the sense in which the resurrection body will be identical with the body laid aside in death, that is a matter on which the Scriptures come to no definite conclusion. Paul's chapter in 1Cor.15 shows this. The most that can be affirmed by 1Cor.15 is that God will reinvest the souls of men with bodies, and that these bodies, while changed, will have in some sense identity with the bodies that have experienced death.

Let's finally get to my verses now.
Is Daniel one of the people who will sleep in the dirt and be resurrected at or sometime very near ther great tribulation? Daniel 12:1-3 and 12.

Justme

Whether Daniel is resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation or during that 7yr time period I am not sure. I will have do some reading to see when the OT believers are resurrected. The believers only in the Church Age are resurrected before the tribulation after the "fullness of the Gentiles" is completed.

4Jesus

2nd July 2003, 11:01 AM

Hi 4jesus,

SOrry, I only dealt with one of your points in that last post.
YOU SAID:

The spirits of the wicked will die after the judgement not at the moment of death.
*****************

I can't recall any scripture at the moment that pins down the timing of the second death of the wicked. I'll look around a bit.

Justme

I've pointed this out to you before. Rev.20:5 are those that are unbelievers. The first resurrection is a resurrection to life (John 5:28, 29), the second resurrection is a resurrection to death. This happens after satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev.20.2). Which brings up the point that, if this has happened and is not in the future, it is hard to believe that satan is bound and nations (i.e.people) are not being deceived anymore (20:3).

Justme

2nd July 2003, 12:58 PM

Justme

2nd July 2003, 02:31 PM

HI 4jesus,

I've pointed this out to you before. Rev.20:5 are those that are unbelievers. The first resurrection is a resurrection to life (John 5:28, 29), the second resurrection is a resurrection to death. This happens after satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev.20.2). Which brings up the point that, if this has happened and is not in the future, it is hard to believe that satan is bound and nations (i.e.people) are not being deceived anymore (20:3).

Dan 12

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

When does this happen?
Daniel 12

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

At the time of the great tribulation. Before , after, during...doesn't say.

This is talking about those who sleep in the dirt and Daniel is going to be one of them.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

As for you(Daniel) carry on til the end.(Daniel's death) Daniel will rest(sleep in the dirt)and the at the end of the days (sometime around the great tribulation) Daniel will be raised to eternal life.

A side note here is that this is one more time the bible tells us the great tribulation is at the end of the days.

You mentioned John 5:28,29 and you said it was the resurrection to life.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

What it says is ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice. Where does it say only the good will come out? It says they will ALL come out and will be raised to eternal life or be condemned.

This agrees with this in Matthew 12:
37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

This is what happens to everybody. The judgement. I don't see a time difference for the good and evil. The judgement comes after you die Hebrews 9:27 and at that judgement you are aquitted or condemned.

Matthew 12:

36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

So further on John 5:28,29 we see that ALL those that hear will 'come out.' That's all it says about it, there is no clear meaning given for 'come out', we have to determine that meaning from other verses.

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.

What comments do you have to this point?

Justme

4Jesus

2nd July 2003, 03:27 PM

Hi 4jesus,
YOU SAID:

The most that can be affirmed by 1Cor.15 is that God will reinvest the souls of men with bodies,

I don't follow, where in 1 Cor 15 does it state that? Maybe I misunderstand. Are you saying the spirit comes back into the body in the grave at some point?

Please quote me on saying that the spirit comes back to the body in the grave!!!! GEEEEZ Is this going to be the same merry-go-round that you and P70 keep Old Shepherd on?! I didn't say anything that could even me misconstrued as meaning that

YOU SAID:

As to the sense in which the resurrection body will be identical with the body laid aside in death, that is a matter on which the Scriptures come to no definite conclusion.

Except it does say one is eternal, one is incorruptable, one is immortal, one is heavenly. I agree that the bible does not say directly what the raised 'body' will look like.

Justme

But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (made alive) except it die: 1Cor.35,36 Paul makes it clear that if one denies the resurrection of believers, Jesus Christ would still be in the grave [v.13]. Read Luke 24:36-43, Jesus is not a spirit and yet He is not physical flesh. And as Acts 1:9,10 clearly states Jesus went to heaven in this form.

4Jesus

2nd July 2003, 06:31 PM

HI 4jesus,

Dan 12

2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

When does this happen?
Daniel 12

There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

At the time of the great tribulation. Before , after, during...doesn't say.

This is talking about those who sleep in the dirt and Daniel is going to be one of them.
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

As for you(Daniel) carry on til the end.(Daniel's death) Daniel will rest(sleep in the dirt)and the at the end of the days (sometime around the great tribulation) Daniel will be raised to eternal life.

A side note here is that this is one more time the bible tells us the great tribulation is at the end of the days.

The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the reusrrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

You mentioned John 5:28,29 and you said it was the resurrection to life.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

What it says is ALL who are in their graves will hear His voice. Where does it say only the good will come out? It says they will ALL come out and will be raised to eternal life or be condemned.

This agrees with this in Matthew 12:
37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

This is what happens to everybody. The judgement. I don't see a time difference for the good and evil. The judgement comes after you die Hebrews 9:27 and at that judgement you are aquitted or condemned.

Matthew 12:

36But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

So further on John 5:28,29 we see that ALL those that hear will 'come out.' That's all it says about it, there is no clear meaning given for 'come out', we have to determine that meaning from other verses.

Your not paying attention to the Scriptures I am giving you.

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.

What comments do you have to this point?

Justme

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept rose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earth, quake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. (Matt.27:50-54) John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.

4Jesus

2nd July 2003, 08:49 PM

HI 4jesus,

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and HAS NOW COME when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

So at the time Jesus made these statements we know the dead were HEARING the voice. It doesn't say they had 'come out', only that they hear.

What comments do you have to this point?

Justme

This could also be referring to Chapter 11 of John when Jesus raised Lazarus. The purpose of Jesus's miracles were to show that He was the Son of God and be glorified as John 11:4 states. If you will notice the centurion was convinced by what he saw in Matt.27:50-54 that Jesus was the Son of God.

Justme

2nd July 2003, 09:30 PM

Hi 4jesus,

Paul makes it clear that if one denies the resurrection of believers, Jesus Christ would still be in the grave [v.13]. Read Luke 24:36-43, Jesus is not a spirit and yet He is not physical flesh. And as Acts 1:9,10 clearly states Jesus went to heaven in this form.[/QUOTE]

I have no major disagreements here. I would say it different, but that's just me.

Justme

Justme

2nd July 2003, 11:12 PM

Hi 4jesus,

[QUOTE=4Jesus]The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the reusrrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

We disagree here a bit. I'll run thru what I see the first resurrection as being. ( not counting the resurrection of Jesus,that was in 33 AD or thereabouts.)
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This tells us that those in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Who are they? Here are some who reigned with christ for 1000 years.

Rev 20
. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another possibility are the 144000.

Rev 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I consider these as possible because at the time John saw this, the judgment haddened occured and yet here are 144000 with Jesus.

The judgment is talked about later in verse:

7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.

I mention the above to cover off all angles because now we come to our old friend Daniel. Daniel was not beheaded for his belief in Jesus, Daniel was not in the great tribulation to get any marks, Daniel was just one of the dead 'sleeping in the dirt.'

The bible tells us that the rest of the dead would not be raised until after the 1000 years.

Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Note: The NIV places this verse in brackets which clears up the meaning.

Daniel was one of the 'rest of the dead.
Daniel would not be in the first resurrection.

Those who slept in the dirt were going to be raised sometime around the great tribulation Daniel 12 tells us, but there is still more.

1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Here Paul tells us they would not be raised prior to Daniel who had 'fallen asleep'.
To summarize:

For the above reasons I do not see the first resurrection including the three groups you mention, only those defined in Rev 20.

I do not see any extra people being involved in the 1000 year reign with Christ other than those of the first resurrection.

I do not agree that it is only unbelievers in the second resurrection. Again because I see Daniel as being part of that resurrection because Gabriel or whoever told him he would be.

This gets long so I'll stop and wait for your comments.

Justme

Justme

2nd July 2003, 11:24 PM

4Jesus

3rd July 2003, 01:14 PM

The first resurrection Rev.20:5 says that people are blessed and holy, are the wicked blessed and holy? NO, so it would make sense that they will not be part of the first resurrection. People that will be part of the first resurrection comes in three parts 1).the resurrection of Christ (the firstfruits-1Cor.15:23, Rev.1:5)...2).the reusrrection of the church (the dead in Christ-1Cor.15:23; 1Thess.4:16)...3).the resurrection of the Old Testament and Tribulation saints (Re.20:4; Isaiah.26:19; Dan.12:2). The rest of the dead (unbelievers) lived not again until the thousand years were finished (Rev.20:5a) they will be raised in the second resurrection which is the second death [v.6].

We disagree here a bit. I'll run thru what I see the first resurrection as being. ( not counting the resurrection of Jesus,that was in 33 AD or thereabouts.)
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

This tells us that those in the first resurrection reign with Christ for 1000 years.

Who are they? Here are some who reigned with christ for 1000 years.

Since Rev.19 depicts the marriage supper of the bride to the Lamb, which is the Church to Christ, it shows this already having happened and they are alive in heaven. Since [20:6] makes the point that those of the first resurrection are blessed and holy, the Church, OT saints, Tribulation martyrs, all these will only be resurrected once but at different times since [20:6] absolutely makes the point that there will be second death, these people cannot be part of that, it is reserved for wicked (the dead of all ages). Daniel would be resurrected during this time that is close to the end in God's timetable because the next event is Armageddon (the end).

Rev 20
. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Another possibility are the 144000.

Rev 14
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

I consider these as possible because at the time John saw this, the judgment haddened occured and yet here are 144000 with Jesus.

The judgment is talked about later in verse:

7He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.

Just because John is describing the the martyred saints this doesn't exclude the Church (bride) chapter 19. "The Hour Of Judgement" is for the beast and the false prophet which will be sent to the lake of fire where they will be during the Millenniel reign (thousand years) of Jesus Christ on earth. The final judgement is depicted in 20:15 when all the wicked that are not in the "Book of Life" will join them awaiting satan after his final assault in Armageddon. People that did not head the Gospel in the millennium will go there also.

I mention the above to cover off all angles because now we come to our old friend Daniel. Daniel was not beheaded for his belief in Jesus, Daniel was not in the great tribulation to get any marks, Daniel was just one of the dead 'sleeping in the dirt.'

The bible tells us that the rest of the dead would not be raised until after the 1000 years.

Rev 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) Note: The NIV places this verse in brackets which clears up the meaning.

Daniel was one of the 'rest of the dead.
Daniel would not be in the first resurrection.

Those who slept in the dirt were going to be raised sometime around the great tribulation Daniel 12 tells us, but there is still more.

"The rest of the dead" are (unbelievers) at the second resurrection described in [20:12,13]. Again, are wicked people "blessed and holy"? [v.6]. Will blessed and holy people experience a "second death?" [v.6].

1 Thess 4

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Here Paul tells us they would not be raised prior to Daniel who had 'fallen asleep'.
To summarize:

For the above reasons I do not see the first resurrection including the three groups you mention, only those defined in Rev 20.

I do not see any extra people being involved in the 1000 year reign with Christ other than those of the first resurrection.

I do not agree that it is only unbelievers in the second resurrection. Again because I see Daniel as being part of that resurrection because Gabriel or whoever told him he would be.

This gets long so I'll stop and wait for your comments.

Justme

Again the believer's hope (1Thess.4:14; 1Cor.15:20-23). Verse [15.] only points out that the living have no advantage over those that have died believing in Christ at His second coming. This is meant for the Church Age believers, was Daniel living during the Church Age?

parousia70

3rd July 2003, 02:04 PM

I just thought I'd add this:

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead

Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became

Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection.

4Jesus

3rd July 2003, 02:17 PM

Hi 4jesu,

John 5:25 could be describing Matt.27:50-54 which says many not all of the saints that were in their graves and slept arose.

John 5
25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out--those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Those few that are said to have come out of the graves later died again. The conversation here in John 5 is talking about something much more permanent. And it is talking about judment as well.

Justme

Sorry, but what's your point again? If it's the AND NOW thing, if Jesus was referring to when He was on earth, it is probably a good guess that He could have been referring to Lazarus John 11:43 since Lazarus heard His voice and [v.44] "he that was dead came forth". The fact that Lazarus surely died again after this is not the focal point of this, it is that, Jesus was showing them [v.40] the glory of God and that he Jesus [v.25] had the power over life and death for those that "believe" in Him. Since Lazarus lived again, he must have come to believe [v.26]. And since the body of Lazarus must have died again, it is the spirit that doesn't die at the death of the body.

Justme

3rd July 2003, 02:39 PM

Hi 4jesus,

I may have misunderstood here.

You said:
Since [20:6] makes the point that those of the first resurrection are blessed and holy, the Church, OT saints, Tribulation martyrs, all these will only be resurrected once but at different times since ....

Yes, they will be resurrected at different times which is the point I am making. You talk about being resurrected ONCE, do you think there is some chance of getting two shots at it?

There is mention of a second death, of course, that is the other possibility for all of mankind. We find this out after death as in:

Hebrews 9
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

This verse states once and for all a basic biblical fact. It can not be slid to the side, it can not be neglected, it is to be understood, it is a basic biblical fact. ...man will(you, me, Billy Bob and everybody who is ever born into this world), will die. Then this verse tells us we will be made aware of our judgment after that death.

This is further explained here in Matt 12:

36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.

This tells us that judgment is just that- a judging of the persons earthly life to determine if that person will be raised to a life of comfort(heavenly) or the Hell mode or second death. Meaning you have died once (physically) and if you are not judged favorable you don't make the grade on the spiritual side of things either. Second death. That is available to you, me, Dolly Parton anybody, if we choose not to believe and whatever else He decides on. For those who believe the chances are better. I won't hazard a guess at what the percentage of accuracy there is to this in actual reality. If we die and everything fades to nothing we'll know it wasn't right, I guess.

So now there is this group that is blessed and holy and the second death has no danger to them. Look at the verses and you will see that they are the ones who will reign with Jesus for the 1000 years.
Here are the verses again;

Rev 20

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Here in a verse that is explaining who will reign with Jesus for a thousand years, it does not include Daniel. Daniel can not be in this description.
Because:
1)Daniel never met Jesus and never was beheaded for any reason.

2)Daniel was not involved in the great tribulation where the beast was doing his thing.

3) Daniel was in the rest of the dead.

Daniel was going to recieve a favorable judgement, but Daniel could not have been in what is called the 'firstresurrection'.

He was resurrected at a different time, and Paul tells us that those 'sleeping in the dirt' would be resurrected ahead of him or those he was writing to.

Now, to further contradict the idea that it is only unbelievers that will rise later( to go where by the way) we have Paul who clearly says some people will remain after those who 'sleep in the dirt' have been resurrected, we have Rev 14:13

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

The rest of the chapter describes with the coming of the son of man.

So we have the first resurrection which was those who reigned with Christ for a thousand years, we have the rest of the dead, who slept in the dirt resurrected near/at the great tribulation, we have Pauls group that remained till the coming and they would have died sometime later and they were BLESSED.

You can fit the wedding feast in here any where really. It fits alright.

Now this Armaggedden....what scripture are you getting these biblical facts from.
I would say that Armaggedon is just another way of talking about a battle where those that rejected Jesus were given their comeuppance. I would say that was in the fight we read about in Jerusalem.

Justme

Justme

3rd July 2003, 07:56 PM

Hi 4jesus,

YOU WROTE:
Sorry, but what's your point again? If it's the AND NOW thing, if Jesus was referring to when He was on earth, it is probably a good guess that He could have been referring to Lazarus John 11:43 since Lazarus heard His voice and [v.44] "he that was dead came forth".

Well, I will guess that Jesus meant that those that slept in the dirt were very close to their being raised. I would guess that is what Jesus meant.

You wrote:

The fact that Lazarus surely died again after this is not the focal point of this, it is that, Jesus was showing them [v.40] the glory of God and that he Jesus [v.25] had the power over life and death for those that "believe" in Him.

I would say that Jesus was telling them that those who slept in the ground would hear His verse and be raised, some to heaven and some to Hell.

I would go further and say the AND NOW IS can be taken as SOON.

You wrote:
Since Lazarus lived again, he must have come to believe [v.26]. And since the body of Lazarus must have died again, it is the spirit that doesn't die at the death of the body.

Exactly, the natural/earthly body has passed away and the spiritual/heavenly body comes. Or I guess the hellenly body if things don't go too good at the judgment deal.

Justme

Justme

3rd July 2003, 08:31 PM

Hi 4jesus,
I missed some of your post:

You wrote:

"The rest of the dead" are (unbelievers) at the second resurrection described in [20:12,13]. Again, are wicked people "blessed and holy"? [v.6]. Will blessed and holy people experience a "second death?" [v.6].
******

The blessed will not experience a second death.
No, the wicked are not 'blessed and holy."

You wrote:

Again the believer's hope (1Thess.4:14; 1Cor.15:20-23). Verse [15.] only points out that the living have no advantage over those that have died believing in Christ at His second coming. This is meant for the Church Age believers, was Daniel living during the Church Age?
**********************

Not quite.

Here are the verses.
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and 13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

I'll just pull out a sentence or two here and leave it at that, it is self explanatory.
......the dead in Christ will rise first.

.........17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Now when I quote verse 15 there can only be one meaning.
...... we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Daniel was one who had fallen asleep. Daniel is raised before whoever Paul includes as WE.

The 'church age' is a term applied by man, I don't know the true meaning of the term.

So again....

Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not wicked.

Rev 20 calls those who reign with Christ for the 1000 years the first resurrection. These people were not wicked , the second death was not a danger to them.

In 1 Thess 15 those who fell asleep are resurrected and can include the wicked as well as the righteous.

John 5
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear