May I ask a question?

[VeryTiredGirl]

In a different online community, a group of us have been discussing organ and tissue donation. Generally, the consensus is that it is a beautiful gift that can bring life and hope out of tragedy.

Another person came into the discussion and said that his faith would not allow organ donation. When I checked his religion, he indicated that he was Orthodox, likely Russian.

When asked to elaborate, he said, "...organ transplants...(are) nonetheless destructive attack on the integrity of the human person, a being of spirit and matter." He went on to say that since the donation was such a distructive attack on the person, organ donation is also an attack on the Incarnation of the God the Son, on His Resurrection, His Ascension, and could therefore negatively affect one's salvation and deification.


Can you help me understand what he means by this? I'm not sure I understand how an organ donation is an attack on one's salvation.


Everything I've read before about organ transplants and the Orthodox faith is that organ donation is seen as a gift that can save the life of another. Is what I've read before correct, or is what this individual has said the actual opinion of the Orthodox church?


Thank you for allowing me to step in and ask this question. I'm looking forward to your responses.

[Philip]

To the best of my knowledge, there is not official Orthodox position on organ donation. However, we do have a great deal of respect for the human body, even after death. Many people seem to have a nonchalant attitude to the body after death -- seeming to take the position that the body is just an empty husk. We view the body as part of the person just as the soul is part of the person. We believe in the literal resurrection of the body.

If the donation is done with the proper mindset, I personally have no problem with it. If the basis for the decision is one of disregarding the importance of the body, then there is a problem.

[Photios]

Phillip has essentially summed up my thoughts, but there is one thing I would like to add. The best thing to do is find some Orthodox priests and ask them. It may be better for what you are asking to get multiple opinions from them.

[Momzilla]

My priest and I touched on this subject recently. While he said that cremation was absolutely not an option for Orthodox Christians, he did not say this about organ donation. I don't think it is per se prohibited, and personally, I will continue to carry my organ donor card as an Orthodox. If God can resurrect me and heal my wounds, then surely He can regenerate the organs I have donate for the good of others.

[Oblio]

I was told that for some donations that the vital organs must be taken while the donor is alive. If true, to do so would be unOrthodox.

[VeryTiredGirl]

To the best of my knowledge, there is not official Orthodox position on organ donation. However, we do have a great deal of respect for the human body, even after death. Many people seem to have a nonchalant attitude to the body after death -- seeming to take the position that the body is just an empty husk. We view the body as part of the person just as the soul is part of the person. We believe in the literal resurrection of the body.

If the donation is done with the proper mindset, I personally have no problem with it. If the basis for the decision is one of disregarding the importance of the body, then there is a problem.

I see. That makes sense. Certainly respect for the body is very important. I have actually assisted with organ retrievals and have performed tissue harvests, and I know that from the standpoint of the surgical team, the body is always treated with the utmost of respect and dignity.

[VeryTiredGirl]

Phillip has essentially summed up my thoughts, but there is one thing I would like to add. The best thing to do is find some Orthodox priests and ask them. It may be better for what you are asking to get multiple opinions from them.

Will they actually talk to me? I know there's a Greek Orthodox church not too far from here, but I never knew if I could just call or walk in to talk to one of the priests.

[Matrona]

My priest and I touched on this subject recently. While he said that cremation was absolutely not an option for Orthodox Christians, he did not say this about organ donation. I don't think it is per se prohibited, and personally, I will continue to carry my organ donor card as an Orthodox. If God can resurrect me and heal my wounds, then surely He can regenerate the organs I have donate for the good of others.
My priest says flat out that organ donation is allowed, so I don't worry about it. I believe that the Eucharist sanctifies us and that respect is due to the temple of the Holy Spirit. But I also believe organ and tissue donation is an instrument of great good, and I believe God sees organ donation as an act of generosity and not an insult.

[VeryTiredGirl]

My priest and I touched on this subject recently. While he said that cremation was absolutely not an option for Orthodox Christians, he did not say this about organ donation. I don't think it is per se prohibited, and personally, I will continue to carry my organ donor card as an Orthodox. If God can resurrect me and heal my wounds, then surely He can regenerate the organs I have donate for the good of others.

Quoting from organtransplants.org: ""the Greek Orthodox Church is not opposed to organ donation as long as the organs and tissue in questions are used to better human life, i.e., for transplantation or for research that will lead to improvements in the treatment and prevention of disease."" I'm not sure if the other Orthodox faiths feel the same way, but the Greek Orthodox sounds like they are in agreement with what you've said.

[Matrona]

Will they actually talk to me? I know there's a Greek Orthodox church not too far from here, but I never knew if I could just call or walk in to talk to one of the priests.
Probably best to call ahead to see when they are there. Orthodox Holy Week is next week, so things will be hopping!

[VeryTiredGirl]

I was told that for some donations that the vital organs must be taken while the donor is alive. If true, to do so would be unOrthodox.

For vital organs, the person is brain dead, meaning there is no electrical activity in the brain and the body cannot breathe, maintain a heart rythym on it's own. The person has left the body, but the heart is kept beating and the lungs are forced to breathe by machines.

Death has occured as surely as if the body was already in the coffin, but the vital movements of the body, like heartbeat and respiration, are being done by machines.

Would that still fall under unOrthodox practice, since there is still a heartbeat and breath (albeit artificially induced), even though the person is clinically dead? (I'm asking honestly, not being sarcastic)

[Philip]

Phillip has essentially summed up my thoughts, but there is one thing I would like to add. The best thing to do is find some Orthodox priests and ask them.

This is implicit in every post I write.

[Oblio]

Would that still fall under unOrthodox practice, since there is still a heartbeat and breath (albeit artificially induced), even though the person is clinically dead? (I'm asking honestly, not being sarcastic)


I would think (again, as others have said, ask a priest) that the situation that you describe would be permissible. I think what is not allowed is where a terminal patient (who would stay alive at least for the time being) has a vital organ removed. IOW, the act of donation itself hastens death.

[VeryTiredGirl]

But I also believe organ and tissue donation is an instrument of great good, and I believe God sees organ donation as an act of generosity and not an insult.

I'm guessing that's how most people in different Christian faiths view organ and tissue donation. I know that the body of the donor is treated with utmost respect and dignity by the surgical teams.

[VeryTiredGirl]

Probably best to call ahead to see when they are there. Orthodox Holy Week is next week, so things will be hopping!

I would most certainly wait until after Holy Week. I know how amazingly busy it is for us during that time of year.

Along the same lines...if I were to visit an Orthodox church one Sunday, would I be welcomed? I would be coming alone, and won't be familiar with the liturgy, but I'd be willing to watch and follow the others.

[VeryTiredGirl]

I would think (again, as others have said, ask a priest) that the situation that you describe would be permissible. I think what is not allowed is where a terminal patient (who would stay alive at least for the time being) has a vital organ removed. IOW, the act of donation itself hastens death.

That would be impermissible across the board, I think, regardless of religion, with the exception of living donor transplants, where a parent or family member donates a kidney or part of the liver (which will regenerate on its own) to an ill loved one. Both come away alive, and death is not hastened.

[Matrona]

I would most certainly wait until after Holy Week. I know how amazingly busy it is for us during that time of year.

Along the same lines...if I were to visit an Orthodox church one Sunday, would I be welcomed? I would be coming alone, and won't be familiar with the liturgy, but I'd be willing to watch and follow the others.
Of course you would be welcome! :) Here's an essay written by Frederica Mathewes-Green that details some things that would be helpful to know in advance: http://www.frederica.com/orthodox/o12th-mrb.html

Sometimes parishes that have a lot of people who came here from "the old country" can be a little icy because it's sometimes hard for them to understand why non-Greeks or non-Russians would be interested in Orthodoxy.

[Philip]

Along the same lines...if I were to visit an Orthodox church one Sunday, would I be welcomed? I would be coming alone, and won't be familiar with the liturgy, but I'd be willing to watch and follow the others.

What Matrona said.

I would also add that you might call ahead to see if the Divine Liturgy is said in English. Some parishes have the service in Greek/Russian/other language I can not speek.

[Rilian]

I see. That makes sense. Certainly respect for the body is very important. I have actually assisted with organ retrievals and have performed tissue harvests, and I know that from the standpoint of the surgical team, the body is always treated with the utmost of respect and dignity.

My wife did this as well. She said the people who regularly did tissue harvesting almost all ended up being vegetarians.

[Vasya Davidovich]

I see. That makes sense. Certainly respect for the body is very important. I have actually assisted with organ retrievals and have performed tissue harvests, and I know that from the standpoint of the surgical team, the body is always treated with the utmost of respect and dignity.
You completely failed to persuade me with this post.

Reduction of the mortal remains of the human person to "organs" to be retrieved, "tissue" to be harvested, or "the body" (as if it weren't connected to a person) signifies to me the essential problem with organ donation. And that problem is that organ donation does not recognize a Resurrection, and effectively regards the human body as a renewable resource (like forests or fisheries), not as a temple to the Holy Spirit.

[MariaRegina]

Another feature of organ retrieval which bothers me is that the Orthodox Christian believes that our bodies are purified, illuminated and sanctified by the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

With body tissues ... some are discarded because after it is retrieved it cannot be implanted in a timely manner. What happens to those tissues?

These are just some questions that also need to be asked.

[Matrona]

Another feature of organ retrieval which bothers me is that the Orthodox Christian believes that our bodies are purified, illuminated and sanctified by the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

With body tissues ... some are discarded because after it is retrieved it cannot be implanted in a timely manner. What happens to those tissues?

These are just some questions that also need to be asked.
You may as well ask what happens to all those skin cells we slough off every day, or the 100 strands of hair we lose.

[Rilian]

Organ donation, tissue harvesting and giving blood all save lives.

[moses916]

Maybe you could work out an agreement with the surgeons to burn excess tissue or excess blood since it would be utterly disrespectful to the Lord if they were thrown in the trash. as for giving parts because we received Holy Communion and those outside the church cannot recieve is a hard issue to tackle. In my opinion, i think its a greater sin to keep ur organs to yourself rather than to help others even though they are unworthy of our organs because they are purified by Christ at the Eucharist. Give to those who are in need. :)

[MariaRegina]

You may as well ask what happens to all those skin cells we slough off every day, or the 100 strands of hair we lose.

Following your train of thought, I am surprised you don't ask about the fluids we void daily? I'll avoid the gutter language. Or about the air we breathe out. Come on!

I'm talking about live tissues, not dead tissues. There is a big difference here.

It seems that you just want to dismiss any serious questions.



SO I WILL REPEAT THE QUESTIONS I RAISED ABOVE:

Another feature of organ retrieval which bothers me is that the Orthodox Christian believes that our bodies are purified, illuminated and sanctified by the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

With body tissues ... some are discarded because after it is retrieved it cannot be implanted in a timely manner. What happens to those tissues?

These are just some questions that also need to be asked.

[Matrona]

Maybe you could work out an agreement with the surgeons to burn excess tissue or excess blood since it would be utterly disrespectful to the Lord if they were thrown in the trash.

I think diseased organs and amputated limbs are incinerated, but I'm not sure.

as for giving parts because we received Holy Communion and those outside the church cannot recieve is a hard issue to tackle. In my opinion, i think its a greater sin to keep ur organs to yourself rather than to help others even though they are unworthy of our organs because they are purified by Christ at the Eucharist. Give to those who are in need. :)

I agree.

[Matrona]

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

Why are pregnant women able to commune? Unborn children aren't baptized--they could be partaking unto their own damnation.

(I know why, I'm posing the question to prove a point.)

[MariaRegina]

Maybe you could work out an agreement with the surgeons to burn excess tissue or excess blood since it would be utterly disrespectful to the Lord if they were thrown in the trash. ...

With all the blood that the blood banks receive that goes old and must be discarded. They don't have time to respectfully dispose of it. Their main concern is the laws concerning health and safety, not your personal wishes, which are moot once you donate it.

[MariaRegina]

Why are pregnant women able to commune? Unborn children aren't baptized--they could be partaking unto their own damnation.

(I know why, I'm posing the question to prove a point.)

Again you are avoiding the questions and asking questions that are not even relevant. Nice try.

[If Not For Grace]

"While he said that cremation was absolutely not an option for Orthodox Christians"

What happens if it is not a choice? (like war victims, deaths in fire?)

Do circumstances matter?

[MariaRegina]

Again, no one has really addressed my questions.

So, I will repeat them.

Another feature of organ retrieval which bothers me is that the Orthodox Christian believes that our bodies are purified, illuminated and sanctified by the reception of the Holy Mysteries.

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

With body tissues ... some are discarded because after it is retrieved it cannot be implanted in a timely manner. What happens to those tissues?

[moses916]

well then i guess if they are discarded you can't do anything about it. but then again, i think its a greater sin not to give to others than to hold back your organs/blood because they were sanctified by the Lord at the Eucharist.

[Matrona]

"While he said that cremation was absolutely not an option for Orthodox Christians"

What happens if it is not a choice? (like war victims, deaths in fire?)

Do circumstances matter?
Yes, they are taken into account. Cremation is allowed when dire circumstances demand it, but the ashes would be interred and never scattered.

[Matrona]

I am sick and tired of your abusive, belittling, childish behavior. Just because I'm not swayed by your arguments doesn't mean you can pretend I didn't answer you.

So the question remains ... If we don't even believe that another non-Orthodox Christian should share Holy Communion with us, then why would we want to give our body parts to an atheist, a muslim, etc? Do you see the contradiction?

Same reason it's okay for pregnant women to commune.

If some priests don't want us to receive Holy Communion when shedding blood (via a cut or menstral flow), then what about those who donate blood?

My priest lets me commune while I am menstruating, and when we were looking for activities to do as a parish, hosting a blood drive was one of the suggestions made, which he had no objection to.

With body tissues ... some are discarded because after it is retrieved it cannot be implanted in a timely manner. What happens to those tissues?

You answered your own question! They're discarded! Why isn't embalming forbidden?

[Mary of Bethany]

I will respectfully request that the two of you - Aria and Matrona - please take your disagreements elsewhere.

It is not right for you to disturb the rest of TAW and our visitors with this.

Please.

Mary

[xenia]

Closed for staff review and for time to cool off.