Holland, Belgium, Spain, who's next ?

[Emmanuel-A]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050421/325/fgtnm.html



MADRID (Reuters) - Spain's parliament gave initial approval to a law legalising gay marriage on Thursday in a move likely to rekindle conflict with a Catholic Church that has just elected a new conservative pope.

A packed public gallery erupted in cheers and applause as speaker Manuel Marin announced that the lower chamber of parliament had approved the Socialist government's proposal.



"It's unfair to be a second-class citizen because of love," Socialist legislator Carmen Monton said. "Spain joins the vanguard of those defending full equality for gays and lesbians."

Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero enjoys broad support, inside and outside parliament, for the reform that would make Spain only the third European country to legalise gay marriage.

But the proposal, part of a raft of liberal social legislation by Zapatero's government, has outraged Spain's powerful Catholic church and is unlikely to please conservative Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, elected Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday.

Ratzinger, formerly the Vatican's top doctrinal guardian, has said same-sex unions are destroying the concept of marriage and eroding Europe's social identity.

The bill, passed 183-136, still needs Senate approval and a final reading in the lower house, but is widely expected to become law.

Only the conservative opposition Popular Party and a Christian democrat party from Catalonia had said they would oppose the bill.

"This is a very important step forward in civil rights ... and an important advance in what we might call the laicism of our country," Gaspar Llamazares, leader of left-wing coalition United Left, told Reuters in parliament.

Popular Party spokesman Eduardo Zaplana said his party favoured equal rights for homosexuals. "It's quite another thing that an ancient institution like marriage, that is fundamental for the organisation of society, has to be exactly the same (for homosexuals)," he said.

The bill amends current marriage laws to give same-sex unions the same status as heterosexual ones, including inheritance rights, pensions and the adoption of children. The Popular Party supports recognition of gay union but says homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt.

EASIER DIVORCE

By a crushing margin, the lower house also gave first approval to a bill to make divorce quicker and easier in Spain, and to allow divorced parents to share the custody of their children.

Senior churchmen have criticised Zapatero's liberal agenda, which also includes easing abortion restrictions and permitting stem cell research, but the moves are popular among young Spaniards, fewer than a fifth of whom are practising Catholics.

During the 1939 to 1975 dictatorship of Francisco Franco, Catholicism was the only officially recognised religion in Spain and divorce and abortion were illegal.

But since Franco's death the country has adopted some of the most liberal views in Europe and a survey last year showed 70 percent of the country supported gay marriage. Former Pope John Paul, who died this month, warned Spanish bishops in January that an increasingly secular-minded Spain was moving toward "restriction of religious freedom and even promoting disdain or ignorance of religion."

[Moros]

Isn't it legal in Germany as well?

[Rilian]

I think Europe is heading towards a civilizational crisis. It will be interesting to see as native birth rates and church attendance continue to plummet what will happen. Especially in the face of a rapidly increasing Muslim population.

[Rilian]

I'm on an article posting bender for some reason this morning. Oh, well here's another one. Europe’s Problem—and Ours (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0402/articles/weigel.html)

[Philip]

Does the Church recognize State marriages?

[Konstantinos]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not Spain!!!! How can one of the most devout Catholic Cultures do this!!????

[Theophorus]

I'm on an article posting bender for some reason this morning. Oh, well here's another one. Europe’s Problem—and Ours (http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0402/articles/weigel.html)

I have seen that one before. It makes some excellent points. Thx for posting it, I was intending to send it to someone and had lost it.

[gord96]

whatever....secular world will make decisions like this.....it is not a Christian world so I don't expect it to make Christian decisions

[Rilian]

whatever....secular world will make decisions like this.....it is not a Christian world so I don't expect it to make Christian decisions

It also gives the right of adoption. It's not just about marriage.

[gord96]

i know....i don't agree with it but I don't let it get to me either as this world is fallen and nothing the world's governments do suprise me

[Vasya Davidovich]

Who's next?

Probably Canada. We are tied to Europe by double bonds - France by history, and England by governmental allegiance. This plays itself out with a Canadian zeitgeist that is at times indistinguishable for that of Europe.

I take issue with Gord's comment. This may not be a Christian society - there have been many that weren't - but this is the first time in history (to my uncertain knowledge) where secularism has replaced belief in a morality that is divinely inspired. It alarms me to see a society where a hierarchically-ordered morality is replaced with nothing. This is societal suicide.

At least the pagans of old knew that society had to be maintained and that that maintenance was brought about by a clinging to the ancient values. Rome held to her gods and goddesses, at the very least, and so provided for a relatively stable Empire. Our kind of collective amnesia is creating a world where there is nothing that is intrinsically right - only what we agree upon.

We may not expect the world to reflect Christian values, but we should at least expect to hold to values of some kind. Not the lowest common denominator ethical dithering of the present.

[Vasya Davidovich]

I take issue with Gord's comment. This may not be a Christian society - there have been many that weren't - but this is the first time in history (to my uncertain knowledge) where secularism has replaced belief in a morality that is divinely inspired. It alarms me to see a society where a hierarchically-ordered morality is replaced with nothing. This is societal suicide.
France - post Revolution - was a secular state. Their contribution to society? A standardized system of measurement, the guillotine, and the prolonged Napoleonic wars.

France gutted itself in those years. Its citizenry and its soldiers were noted for their callous attitude towards life - indeed, for their barbarity and their savagery.

The fruits of secularism are not good.

[gord96]

you are very right.....i definatly don't like to see the world go in this direction......but I don't know what I can do so I will continue to focus on my relationship with God and the people in my life.....i'm afraid I don't like protesting or writing letters......

[Rilian]

I didn't mean to single you out gord. Your post just reminded me this about more than what consenting adults want to do in their houses, it's really about altering the fabric of society. We can't isolate ourselves, we'll confront it, our kids will at school and so on.

I agree with vasya that Canada may very well be next. I think the one thing we can do is use the ballot box.

[Vasya Davidovich]

I agree with vasya that Canada may very well be next. I think the one thing we can do is use the ballot box.
This is not as productive as it may seem. In Canada, we effectively have one party, and in your nation, you have two.

What does one do when all parties mouth the same nonsense?

[Rilian]

What does one do when all parties mouth the same nonsense?

Pretend Wilfrid Laurier is still Prime Minister.

[Maximus]

Isn't same-sex marriage already legal in most Canadian provinces?

Isn't the Canadian government already persecuting Christians under its "hate speech" laws?

Aren't we Orthodox, through our participation and membership in the WCC, already in bed with liberal Protestants who advocate the things Spain is legalizing?

[Vasya Davidovich]

Isn't same-sex marriage already legal in most Canadian provinces?

Isn't the Canadian government already persecuting Christians under its "hate speech" laws?

Aren't we Orthodox, through our participation and membership in the WCC, already in bed with liberal Protestants who advocate the things Spain is legalizing?
1. Not quite yet. Several provinces (Ontario, Quebec, and BC, I believe) have unilaterally approved same-sex marriage, but there has been a great deal of double-talk... and they are in a legally uncertain area. To correct that, a bill has been introduced in Parliament by the Liberal Party to make same-sex marriages legal throughout Canada. Recently the Conservatives tried to squash it before it make it to a second reading (where it is almost guaranteed to pass). This attempt failed.

The Conservatives follow a policy of representing their ridings - their constituencies, and so the average Conservative MP opposes it (as do most Canadians). However, the Liberals work like a dictatorship, and all Liberal MP's are expected to toe the party line. (Now they are saying that only those in cabinet are expected to toe the party line and the backbenchers can vote "according to their consciences". This, however, is more double-speak, as the Liberal Party is known to take a liberal attitude to social mores and values.)

Why - if they don't represent the people - are the Liberals in power? Well, the Conservatives have been divided for the past 10 years between moderate Conservatives (PC's) and the hard-line Conservatives (Reform, and later, the Alliance). Now they are under one party, but the average Joe out East fears the hard-line element... particularly since the Liberals and the media play up this fear. People simply don't want to give up the right to abort children, and they are afraid (perhaps justly) that the Conservatives would oppose abortion.

Thankfully, the Liberals are in the midst of a corruption scandal. Pray that their government will collapse, as this would defeat the bill before it ever makes it to a vote.

2. Yes, they are. At least one bishop is being "investigated" for "hate crimes" because he said that homosexuality was a sin. There are numerous other examples, but the hierarchies are definitely under attack.

The Liberals claim that religious groups would not be expected to conduct same-sex marriages, but given a) their track record for blatant lying, b) their track record for "changing their minds" two years later, and c) persecuting Christians already... I don't trust this promise, nor do most Canadian Christians.

3. I am inclined to think so. The ultimate question is whether Orthodox presence in the WCC is limited to a witness or goes so far as involvement in their disgraceful and heretical (sometimes pagan) services.

I know the Serbian Church is a member of the WCC, and they are not exactly known to be liberal. On the other hand, the EP also is a member, and they are reputed to be liberal.

It would be nice if all Orthodox Churches took a common stance on this matter.

[MariaRegina]

Do you have churches from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in Canada? I don't think that they are members of the WCC.

http://www.jerusalempatriarchate.com/

[Rilian]

The WCC (http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/mch-e.html) lists them as members. It also says they are in the Middle East Council of Churches (http://mecc.blogspot.com/).

[MariaRegina]

The WCC (http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/mch-e.html) lists them as members. It also says they are in the Middle East Council of Churches (http://mecc.blogspot.com/).

Rilian - I am going to ask you to retract your statement and edit your post.

The Greek Patriarchate of Jerusalem is not part of the WCC or the Middle East Council of Churches. Look carefully again. The Greek Orthodox Church (EP) in Jerusalem is not the same as the Greek Patriarchate in Jerusalem.

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem has condemned the WCC. So they are no longer part of it.

[Rilian]

I'll definitely modify anything that's wrong, but I've never heard of two Jerusalem Greek Orthodox Patriarchates. CNEWA (http://www.cnewa.org/ecc-patriarc-jersalem.htm), which I think is pretty much accurate says the following:

The Jerusalem Patriarchate has also taken a rather negative stance towards the ecumenical movement: in 1989 it withdrew its delegates from all the bilateral theological dialogues in which the Orthodox Church is engaged. The Patriarch stated that other Christians were using the dialogues as a means of proselytism, and that, since the Orthodox Church already possesses the fullness of Christian truth, it had no need to participate in such discussions.

However, the Jerusalem Patriarchate continues to take part in the activities of the World Council of Churches and the Middle East Council of Churches, and the late Patriarch Diodoros willingly signed joint statements with other local church leaders, especially in regard to the situation of Christians in the Holy Land. These local ecumenical initiatives prepared the way for the drafting of a common memorandum entitled “The Significance of Jerusalem for Christians” that was signed by the Patriarchs and heads of all the traditional churches present in Jerusalem, including the Franciscan Custos of the Holy Land, on November 23, 1994. Since then, the same church leaders meet about every two months in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate, under the presidency of the Patriarch.

[MariaRegina]

I'm still puzzled. I looked at the two sites you provided but didn't see the Patriarchate of Jerusalem listed there.

CNEWA is a Catholic group.

[Vasya Davidovich]

Do you have churches from the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in Canada? I don't think that they are members of the WCC.

http://www.jerusalempatriarchate.com/
Aria:
No, not so far as I know.

In my part of the world Orthodoxy is not terribly prominent. In my city of a million, there are perhaps 9 Churches (2 Russian, 1 Ukrainian, 1 Greek, 1 Antiochian, 1 OCA, 1 Serbian, 1 Carpatho-Rusyn, 1 Romanian), representing a community of about 1000 active Orthodox, and maybe 10000 Orthodox in total.

Our biggest challenge lies in combatting phyletism. This is a serious problem, in part manifested by the fact that all but two congregations conduct their services in another language than English. In fact, the Antiochian Church (which is known for its push towards an American Orthodoxy) holds its services almost entirely in Arabic.

A secondary challenge, related to the first, lies in pushing for unity. This is made more difficult (and it was difficult enough with nationalism) when half the priests in the city do not speak English, and translators are at a premium.

In such an environment, the last thing we need is another jurisdiction. In fact, I am astonished to see that the Jerusalem Patriarchate has a presence on North American soil. Surely we had jurisdictions enough already? I say this cautiously and humbly, for I think we have had dissension enough. But it is my personal feeling that our uncanonical state cannot be corrected by introducing new jurisdictions to the mix, particularly in the case of the JP, where there are already Arabic and Greek Churches in abundance.

Please forgive me if I have offended.
Vasya.

[Rilian]

I'm still puzzled. I looked at the two sites you provided but didn't see the Patriarchate of Jerusalem listed there.

CNEWA is a Catholic group.

On both the WCC and MECC pages it says "Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem" when listing the member churches. Look for the Middle East section on the WCC page. Like I said, I've never heard of two Greek Orthodox Patriarchates in Jerusalem, so I'm not sure what you mean. CNEWA is Catholic, but I've found that site to be quite accurate, I don't know why they would intentionally print false information either.

I've heard the JP does work with other groups in the Middle East to try and support the cause of protecting Arab Christians. I think that's a very good thing. Archimandrite Attalla Hanna of the JP has represented the WCC at meetings furthering the cause of Palestinians as it says here (http://www.middleeastwindow.com/article-print-1243.html).

I believe the JP has also sent representatives to other meetings such as this (http://www.ewtn.com/jubilee/GJ2000/JP2/jan18b.htm) one and this (http://www.vatican.va/special/assisi-participants_20020118_en.html) one.

[MariaRegina]

Aria:
No, not so far as I know.

In my part of the world Orthodoxy is not terribly prominent. In my city of a million, there are perhaps 9 Churches (2 Russian, 1 Ukrainian, 1 Greek, 1 Antiochian, 1 OCA, 1 Serbian, 1 Carpatho-Rusyn, 1 Romanian), representing a community of about 1000 active Orthodox, and maybe 10000 Orthodox in total.

Our biggest challenge lies in combatting phyletism. This is a serious problem, in part manifested by the fact that all but two congregations conduct their services in another language than English. In fact, the Antiochian Church (which is known for its push towards an American Orthodoxy) holds its services almost entirely in Arabic.

A secondary challenge, related to the first, lies in pushing for unity. This is made more difficult (and it was difficult enough with nationalism) when half the priests in the city do not speak English, and translators are at a premium.

In such an environment, the last thing we need is another jurisdiction. In fact, I am astonished to see that the Jerusalem Patriarchate has a presence on North American soil. Surely we had jurisdictions enough already? I say this cautiously and humbly, for I think we have had dissension enough. But it is my personal feeling that our uncanonical state cannot be corrected by introducing new jurisdictions to the mix, particularly in the case of the JP, where there are already Arabic and Greek Churches in abundance.

Please forgive me if I have offended.
Vasya.


No, you haven't.

The Orthodox Church is not centralized around one human or one jurisdiction, because Christ is the Head of the Orthodox Church. Amen. Amen. Amen.

We in the United States do have an irregular situation with all the jurisdictions, but frankly, I'm glad that we have a choice between jurisdictions because I believe that it makes the bishops more accountable. If problems exists (the problems you mentioned above and more which I shall not enumerate), then people can go elsewhere yet still remain within Orthodoxy.

I know several interracial couples who could not belong to the Greek or Antiochian parishes, as their relatives made it so uncomfortable. Wiffey can testify to this problem, as she is hispanic. So these couples (Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Chinese, Hispanic, Black, Jewish, etc.) ended up in the OCA which is much more open to mixed marriages due to the past intermarriages between the native American Indians and the Russians.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth

The dramatic growth of the JP grew out of other problems and I won't elaborate here in the open forum.

[MariaRegina]

Archimandrite Silenced by Israelis

The High Price for Speaking Out
Date: Saturday, February 05 2005
Author: Maria Khoury


By Maria C. Khoury, Ed. D.

A champion of the Palestinian struggle for peace with justice and a devote Orthodox Christian supporting an end to the occupation is being stifled by the Israeli government and with the blessing of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem. He is beloved by the people, despised by the Israelis and feared as a threat by the Greek clergy due to his charismatic personality, deep wisdom and charm. At the moment, Archimandrite Dr. Theodosios Attalla Hanna is one of the only few highly educated clergy within the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem whom is of Palestinian origin; The Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre consists of 200 Greek Orthodox monks, all of which are of Greek descent. Very few Orthodox Christians whom are of Palestinian descent are part of the mainstream patriarchate administration.

For his devotion and dedication to the Holy Land ministry, Abouna (Father) Attalla has received an honorary doctor of theology degree from the Sophia Theological Institute of Bulgaria. He also studied theology for seven years in Greece to serve the Church in Jerusalem but is currently confined to his room not able to contribute his gifts and talents from God to the community. The Israelis have technically put him under "house arrest" and have confiscated his Israeli passport and his Vatican passport obtained by the late Patriarch Diodoros I while Abouna Attalla was officially assigned as the spokesperson for the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

[for rest of story go to ...

http://www.middleeastwindow.com/article-print-1243.html ]

Courtesy Rilian