american evangelism and Lutheran theology

[Imblessed]

Ok, I was just on a thread where people were discussing how they "became" Lutheran and someone made mention of Lutheran Theology vs. american evangelism.

could someone give me a rundown of the differences? I don't know much of anything about Lutherans except a friend of mine who's husband grew up Lutheran said it's "catholic-lite".

At any rate, after watching the movie "Luther", which you Lutherans may or may not like, it made me interested in your denomination.

I currently go to a community church, which is congretionalist in it's running, and Calvinistic in it's teaching. I grew up Quaker. I know very little about other denominations, and I've grown interested in them lately.

Thanks in advance.......

[Imblessed]

bump


does anyone want to talk about this? I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, just curious.

[SPALATIN]

Ok, I was just on a thread where people were discussing how they "became" Lutheran and someone made mention of Lutheran Theology vs. american evangelism.

could someone give me a rundown of the differences? I don't know much of anything about Lutherans except a friend of mine who's husband grew up Lutheran said it's "catholic-lite".

At any rate, after watching the movie "Luther", which you Lutherans may or may not like, it made me interested in your denomination.

I currently go to a community church, which is congretionalist in it's running, and Calvinistic in it's teaching. I grew up Quaker. I know very little about other denominations, and I've grown interested in them lately.

Thanks in advance.......


I suggest reading some books that will give better outlines of these. One such book is "The Spirituality of the Cross" by Gene Edward Veith Jr.

Most of the differences come in how we view the sacraments. Most churches in American Evangelicalism consider Baptism to be only a matter of obedience in faith and consider Communion as only a memorial meal. Lutherans consider them to be sacraments and a means of grace in which God works through to deliver his gifts of forgiveness and love.

Another difference is in liturgy. Lutherans embrace an Ancient liturgy (most of the time) whereas churches in American Evangelicalism have a more laid back approach to a liturgy and most of it is contemporary praise music which is usually a very shallow music compared to the rich hymns sung in the Lutheran church.

I am going to let the others chime in and give some other differences here.

Pax Christi

[BigNorsk]

I think that you are correct that many just think Lutheranism is Catholic-Lite, even many in the Lutheran Churches seem to make that mistake.

The thing is, Lutheranism offers those great Biblical principles which came from the Reformation, you know, the scriptures alone, faith alone, grace alone....

There are actually very few churches that uphold those truths today. It is evident where those truths differ from the Roman Catholics but it is not always as obvious where many of the Protestant Denominations have abandoned them and are actually in conflict with the Reformation. Many of these denominations would call themselves evangelical even as they have abandoned parts or all of the "good news."

For instance, some denominations are arminian in theology, they believe that we can come to God on our own without him calling us. This would conflict with "grace alone." It would say our salvation depends on us, not that it is a gift from God. This would be an area where we would talk about free will, Lutheranism would say that we cannot become saved through our free will. This is the "single predestination" of Lutheranism.

On the other end of this is the "double predestination" and the "limited atonement" of Calvinism. That God not only calls us to be saved, but actually predestines that people are lost. Lutheranism rejects this since the Bible clearly states that Jesus died for the sins of the world, not the sins of the elect. Lutheranism teaches that Jesus' death was sufficient for all, effacious for some.

So Lutheranism has salvation as a gift, one which we can accept or reject.

The area of the scriptures alone is also a big one. The Catholics added tradition to scriptures, today, many are still adding. A person stands up and says "Thus says the Lord." and they are off into all sorts of things. Prophets on every street corner, Apostles falling out of the trees, they add to the Bible, and it leads to the same place it has led before-away from God.

Let's not forget all the works based salvations out there, do this, do that, or else. It is as if people were given a brief view of the sun during the Reformation and then they either chose to go back to the darkness of the Law on their own or were dragged there by others. It astonishes me the number of people out there preaching Old Testament Law as the way to God. They take grace alone and make it grace plus works or even works alone. They suck the marrow right out of people's lives. All over the country people drag out of bed on Sunday thinking, "It's Sunday, we have to go to church, we have to have Communion, and so on. Christianity is reduced to a series of "do's" and "don'ts". Where is the love? Why don't people get out of bed on Sunday and say "It's Sunday, we get to go to church, we get to have Communion, and so on."

And don't get me started on the pray it and claim it and prosperity gospel.

That's my two cents, much of "American Evangelism" has abandoned the Gospel, the "Good news". Evangelism means "good news" yet the good news seems lost in the many gospels making the rounds.

A good Lutheran church is fundamentally and foundationally a church of the good news. Lutheranism starts with Jesus. I don't think any theologian before or since Martin Luther has so pointed out that Jesus Christ is the whole center of the Bible. I watched a discussion thread awhile ago and it was "What is the theme of the Bible?" People said salvation, people said santification and so on. I was shocked, the theme of the Bible is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The drifting of American Evangelism away from the Reformation has lost that among other things.

How's that for an openning statement?

Marv

[Imblessed]

Thank you both for you answers. I would tend to agree with alot of the issues you bring forth.

Although I am on the side of the sacraments being symbolic, I do think that most "protestants" do take the sacraments very seriously, even if we believe them to be symbolic. I'm not trying to argue here at all, just wanted to point that out. :)

What do you all think of the Presbyterians? Particularly PCA--the more conservative branch? I've been learning about the Presbyterians,and they all think VERY highly of Luther, often quoting him. In fact, minus the liturgy, they seem very like you guys.

[SPALATIN]

Thank you both for you answers. I would tend to agree with alot of the issues you bring forth.

Although I am on the side of the sacraments being symbolic, I do think that most "protestants" do take the sacraments very seriously, even if we believe them to be symbolic. I'm not trying to argue here at all, just wanted to point that out. :)

What do you all think of the Presbyterians? Particularly PCA--the more conservative branch? I've been learning about the Presbyterians,and they all think VERY highly of Luther, often quoting him. In fact, minus the liturgy, they seem very like you guys.

Presbyterians are Calvinists and are part of the Reformed churches that Zwingli started and Calvin developed in the 16th century. They give Luther some decent lip service, but they still depart from him in the area of Holy Communion. Luther, in his debate with Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy stated that "Hoc est corpus meum" (This is my body) essentially he states here that "is" means "is" which means that the Body is the body and does not mean "represents" the body.

I guess we respect them as a denomination of Christendom, but we don't agree with them on the essentials and therefore most of the Lutheran Synods (exception being the ELCA) will not commune with them and shouldn't commune with them.

I am sorry if this offends you, but I do believe this to be true.

[Protoevangel]

I would generally agree with what Scott says here. There used to be a start-up PCA church that I would visit on occasion, the pastor was the best I have ever heard in person at teaching Law/Gospel rightly.

Unfortunately, the church folded. I hear that the pastor is currently worshiping at a LCMS church.

[Imblessed]

Presbyterians are Calvinists and are part of the Reformed churches that Zwingli started and Calvin developed in the 16th century. They give Luther some decent lip service, but they still depart from him in the area of Holy Communion. Luther, in his debate with Zwingli at the Marburg Colloquy stated that "Hoc est corpus meum" (This is my body) essentially he states here that "is" means "is" which means that the Body is the body and does not mean "represents" the body.

I guess we respect them as a denomination of Christendom, but we don't agree with them on the essentials and therefore most of the Lutheran Synods (exception being the ELCA) will not commune with them and shouldn't commune with them.

I am sorry if this offends you, but I do believe this to be true.

:D I'm not Presbyterian, so it would be hard to be offended! I have a hard time being offended when someone offers their opinion, unless they start saying that only Luthern(or any other group) is christian! That is the only thing that gets my hackles up. Other than that, it's just us all offering our own opinions!

[St.Augustine]

Although I am on the side of the sacraments being symbolic

Then you are most definitely in the minority. ;)

[night2day]

A comment or three here... :)

...Lutheranism has salvation as a gift, one which we can accept or reject...

~ ~ ~ ~ ~


Within Luther's Small Catachism:

Third Article of the Apostle's Creed

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith.

In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

In this Christian church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers.

On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ.

This is most certainly true.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

The work of the Holy Spirit is expressed not as a two-sided coin, within the Lutheran Confessions where either people can accept and reject God's grace, or a twisting of pre-destination in which Gid creates people for Heaven and Hell. Instead, as the verses indicates within the catachism (John 3; Rom 1:16; 2 Thess 2:14; 1 Cor 12:3; 1 Cor 6:11; Eph 2:8-9....ect) the Scriptures don't explain just how we we need to be brougth to faith by the Holy Spirit, yet we can certainly reject faith on our own. But, this is anther mystery that He's chosen not to explain.



A good Lutheran church is fundamentally and foundationally a church of the good news. Lutheranism starts with Jesus. I don't think any theologian before or since Martin Luther has so pointed out that Jesus Christ is the whole center of the Bible...

Some links may be helpful for those interested:

Luther's Small Catchism (http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/catechism.htm)
Book of Concord (http://cat41.org/WhoWhat/Confessions/)


I would also recommend a book by Daniel Preus entitled:

Why I Am Lutheran -- Jesus at the Center

[Jim47]

Catholics and Lutherans have certain outward appearances of similarity, but very few similarities in beliefs. I think you could compare Baptists and Mormans in the same way. Similar but quite differant. I have never been to a Catholic worship service but I have been to two Catholic weddings and one Catholic funeral. The Catholic weddings were very beautiful, I don't remember much of the service itself except that it was nothing like ours, but where I saw a major differance was at the Catholic funeral. Absolutely nothing like ours. I don't care to go beyond that description here on the forum.